View Full Version : BCM 14.5" UPPER w/ PERM. A2 Style F/H -vs- Specialized Armament ( Ken Elmore ) ?
Good Morning Gent's, After much thought, I've decided that my primary carbine will have a 14.5" M4 profile bbl. Currently, I only have 2 5.56 AR's, both Colt, an R6520 & a LE6920. ( Also have a beautiful, early production STAG M5 in 6.8 SPC, & an LMT LM308MWS in 7.62 ) I've been trying to decide between having my LE6920 converted to legal 14.5", preferably by Ken Elmore at SAW, or possibly by ADCO, which I'm sure will run me a good deal less that by SAW. Another option is to just buy a new complete 14.5" upper from BCM, with of course their over length A2 style F/H permanently affixed. In terms of cost, the least costly will be the ADCO solution, followed by SAW, with the BCM complete upper being the most costly. Sooooo, my QUESTIONS are as follows; 1) How "neat" is the "cut, pin & weld" job as performed by ADCO ? Is is neat & well finished, or is left somewhat visible, so as to leave no doubt that the F/H has been affixed as per ATF reg's ? 2) As for the BCM complete upper, I recall reading that when BCM creates a non-NFA 14.5" bbl'd upper, they purposely leave the work obvious & visible to remove any doubt that it's been legally done. Just how visible is the BCM perm. F/H ? I've searched around a bit, but I can't seem to find any close up photos of a BCM produced version. 3) Lastly, I have seen photos of Ken Elmore's 16" to 14.5" "conversions", & I have to say, you can't tell it from a Colt factory job ! Yes, SAW gets $295 for it, ( Not sure if shipping is included ? ) but if you value full quality workmanship as much as I do, then the price may just be worth it. Well, there it is. I'd very much appreciate any input as to the ADCO & or BCM options. I've read many good reports here on the Forum as to ADCO's work & prices, but would prefer to view some photos prior to making my decision. As always, any & all replies will be very much appreciated. THANK YOU
Regards, dpast32
jonbondave
07-22-15, 11:44
@ 295 dollars you're about 140 dollars shy of a new upper, albeit one without a charging handle or BCG and you'd have to pay whatever they charge for the permanent muzzle device installation. I have no experience with ADCO, but so many folks use them I can't imagine it's bad. Either way, I'd leave my colt upper as is and save up a bit more scratch for the dedicated 14.5 upper. But, FWIW - I went through a phase of 14.5 inch uppers and I prefer 16 anymore for ease of customization.
I've had a Colt 6920 cut to to 14.5", pinned and welded by both ADCO and SAW.
They both do good work but I preferred ADCO by a huge margin.
SAW thinks it's cute install the flash hider without a crush washer, and then machine the wrench flats off the flash hider making it look like part of the barrel. The first time I saw it I threw up in my mouth. After the initial impression, it just looked worse as time went by so I sold it for a huge loss and quit messing with 14.5" barrels altogether. They won't do it any other way and they really should warn their customers before they spend an exorbitant amount of money to dick up a barrel. Especially when the whole point of sending them the barrel in the first place to was to replicate, as closely as possible, an issued M4.
ADCO will do whatever you want. Reasonable price, quick turn around, good work.
SAW does great work. Takes a long time.
Just buy a 14.5" from bcm with enhanced elw kmr and get a bcg for cheap. Did I mention SAW takes a long time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BCM 14.5w/pinned A2X, and add BCM BCG and GF CH. BCM is top notch, and appears to have better QA/QC than Colt.
BCM 14.5w/pinned A2X, and add BCM BCG and GF CH. BCM is top notch, and appears to have better QA/QC than Colt.
Appears that way to who??
I can tell you that nobody does front sight bases like Colt. Colt gets 'em on there straighter than anyone. Back when 6920s came with carry handles, you could bet on pulling it out the box with the rear sight set to mechanical center and leaving it there. Can't say the same about BCM.
Nobody does that type of upper as well as Colt does.
Appears that way to who??
I can tell you that nobody does front sight bases like Colt. Colt gets 'em on there straighter than anyone. Back when 6920s came with carry handles, you could bet on pulling it out the box with the rear sight set to mechanical center and leaving it there. Can't say the same about BCM.
Nobody does that type of upper as well as Colt does.
My experience differs from yours. Colt doesn't quite make em' like they used to when their 6920s came with carry handles. I've seen too many Colt uppers with misaligned FHs, canted FSBs, and improperly torqued barrel nuts to believe the kool-aid. Colt barrels are excellent, but so are BCM's. OP: BCM is the way to go, especially since Colt doesn't make a 14.5 pinned upper.
jonbondave
07-22-15, 14:43
for what a colt 6920 is going for RIGHT now.... it literally cannot be beat. Unless your have a DIAS. then it can be beat. Or you want mid-length, pinned and welded 14.5 etc.
Appears that way to who (should be whom)??
I can tell you that nobody does front sight bases like Colt. Colt gets 'em on there straighter than anyone. Back when 6920s came with carry handles, you could bet on pulling it out the box with the rear sight set to mechanical center and leaving it there. Can't say the same about BCM.
Nobody does that type of upper as well as Colt does.
I felt the need to correct this common error.
I'd just go BCM. SAW is expensive, and potentially a long turn around. I don't trust ADCO based on mixed reports/reviews here... and the ADCO Custom Cruiser I personally own.
I've personally shot a 6920 that was way off on windage. It happens, and I certainly don't drink the colt Koolaid like some do.
ADCO has done several AR uppers for me as well as some 10/22 and other barrel work. Always a quick turn around and well done (knock on wood).
Why do you want a permanently attached flash hider/muzzle device? What will it do for you? The perceived OAL benefit really isn't worth the cost or handicap. If you go the SAW route, be prepared for a wait.
I felt the need to correct this common error.
I didn't feel the need to contrive a way to use an antique word.
I didn't feel the need to contrive a way to use an antique word.
An antique word it is not. By failing to understand the difference between the subject of a clause versus the object of a clause, you expose your ignorance. Next time, please do not contrive to justify incorrect usage of the English grammatical rules.
If you're cutting down a barrel I'd consider 14.7" so you can use pretty much any muzzle device rather than 14.5" requiring an extended muzzle device.
I'm not a big fan of M4 profile. I'm not denying that they can be accurate, and many are, but it's an inefficient use of material compared to a gentle taper in diameter from the breech to the bore. For the same weight the tapered profile should point better and be more accurate (given equal quality). However, it's your gun and you get to do what you want with it.
I wouldn't permanently attach a flash hider
Waste of time and money for negligible benefit.
I had Adco cut a few of my barrels; one a Colt 6920 barrels to 14.5" and the other a LWRC barrel to 10.5". The 10.5" barrel came out great, but the 14.5" barrel they didn't do the M4 .700 X .700 muzzle step because I thought it was part of the barrel cutting process, and not an extra $60 USD. I wish they would have told me, and would have paid for it
3ACR_Scout
07-23-15, 12:02
I've been trying to decide between having my LE6920 converted to legal 14.5", preferably by Ken Elmore at SAW, or possibly by ADCO, which I'm sure will run me a good deal less that by SAW. Another option is to just buy a new complete 14.5" upper from BCM, with of course their over length A2 style F/H permanently affixed.
A third option would be to buy a 6921 upper from G&R and have Grant pin it for you (he's out of stock at the moment, but I'm sure he'll get more in soon):
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6921CK
I'm sure you could recoup a decent amount of your investment by selling the 6920 upper. I haven't seen Grant's pin/weld work yet, but I'm hoping to order one soon.
SAW thinks it's cute install the flash hider without a crush washer, and then machine the wrench flats off the flash hider making it look like part of the barrel.
It sounds like they changed their process at some point, because their website describes it now as a one-piece, machined muzzle device that is made to look like an A2 flash suppressor:
http://www.specializedarmament.com/content/skins/flat/14-5_bbl_16_bbl.htm
Personally, I think it looks odd without the crush washer, so while it looks like they put a lot of work into it, I feel like a pinned/welded A2X on a true 14.5" barrel would better replicate the appearance of a real M4. That's really the only reason I'm considering a pinned 6921 upper, because I'm trying to get as close as possible to the look of a military M4, for sentimental reasons.
Veeklog pointed out an important aspect of the 6920 conversion too - the difference in the 6920 barrel profile forward of the FSB, compared to a true 14.5" barrel, if it matters to you. Something to consider if you plan to have someone do the conversion for you. That's another reason I'd like to have a 6921 upper pinned, as opposed to cutting down a 6920.
Dave
An antique word it is not. By failing to understand the difference between the subject of a clause versus the object of a clause, you expose your ignorance. Next time, please do not contrive to justify incorrect usage of the English grammatical rules.
I do understand, and the word who has been commonly and acceptably used in the place where whom could be used for a long time.
I prefer profanity to eloquence.
Why do you want a permanently attached flash hider/muzzle device? What will it do for you? The perceived OAL benefit really isn't worth the cost or handicap. If you go the SAW route, be prepared for a wait.
I wouldn't permanently attach a flash hider
Waste of time and money for negligible benefit.
This and this. With a few exceptions perma fixing something to the end of the rifle just doesn't make sense and the "it be shorter" argument has yet to impress me. If I want shorter I'll grab an SBR and be done with it.
I prefer profanity to eloquence.
That is sig line worthy right them. I may need to steal that.
I've got a BCM 14.5 with permed A2X. I wish I had gone with a 16" because it's a PITA to make any changes to the thing now.....
If you live in a free state:
Every single person I know that started off with perm flash hider ended up ditching it for a real SBR eventually.
If you live in a free state:
Every single person I know that started off with perm flash hider ended up ditching it for a real SBR eventually.
So true
There is literally no reason to deal with SAW or ADCO in this day and age.
BCM can get this to your door in days. Why wait on SAW or pay their prices?
I have Noveske and BCM 14.5" and they are both clean welds. But you can see the welds, if cosmetics is that important you might be happier with SAW. I got a complete upper from them about 10 years ago. I was local at the time and a trade was involved so it was not that expensive. I don't know what their work looks like now but on my SAW 14.5
you could not see the weld it was the cleanest weld job I had ever seen.
Hello Guys, First, I wish to THANK everyone for all their kind replies to this query ! I had given my choice of going 14.5" in my "primary"ready carbine, based on a few basic reasons. If it were possible, I'd like to go with a 12.5" bbl'd upper, as that particular configuration would suit my needs perfectly. However, I happen to live in an NO Class / NFA state, so anything but a permanently affixed 14.5" bbl is not possible. ( In my state, only LE agencies may own & issue NFA stuff. ) So, with my options somewhat limited, a 14.5" bbl is the shortest I'm going to get. OK, Why don't I just stay with the standard 16", as it does offer some distinct advantages over a permed 14.5" version ? ( No legal issues, slightly enhanced velocity & accuracy, etc.) But, as I said initially, this weapon will be my primary, ready carbine, used for an emergency defensive situation, & then only to contain the situation until my local LE Dept arrives on scene. So basically, this will be a weapon to defend the homestead just until the authorities arrive, at which point it becomes their game. ( Barring any unforeseen contingencies, of course. ) As far as limiting the upper's usefulness by perming the F/H, I really don't see that as a big problem. Remember, this particular upper is to for a dedicated purpose, & for what I'm intending it for, I'll take all the reduction in length I can get. It will be used at ranges between the 3 yard line, out to a maximum range of @ 75 yards, or 100 yards at the very maximum. That's why I'd truly prefer a 11.5 - 12.5" bbl, just for it's compactness & portability. At the ranges it's intended for, the muzzle velocity & energy loss due to the shorter bbl just wouldn't outweight the gain I'm getting in overall portability & usefulness. ( I'll be using either Hornandy's 75 gr. TAP (T2) loads,or perhaps SSA's 77 gr. OTM loaded to 5.56 NATO velocities. Or, just maybe, I may run it with some of the PPU 75 gr. "Poor Man's Match" loads I picked up a few years ago when the price was right.) Also, this particular bbl'd upper will be used for, & dedicated to this specific, basically short range role. I sill have my 2, 16" bbl'd Colt, a 16" bbl 6.8 Stag, a 16" LMT 308MS, & an SAI 16" SOCOM II. ( That's just the AR style stuff. ) Now, hopefully, I've shown my specific reasons why I'd prefer go as short ( & handy ) as possible for the mission at hand. Also, based on the much of the advice I've received here, I have decided that my best option would be to go with the 14.5" permed, complete upper from BCM. From what I can see on their web-site, it looks like the complete upper I need will run me @ $555, plus shipping. Honestly, I'd LOVE to pick up a Colt 6921 & have the F/H permed, but we all know that the Colt will probably run almost double of what the BCM will cost me ! Before I do actually purchase the BCM, I'll also price the same configuration, but an LMT unit, also from BCM. If the LMT is not too much more, I'll go that route. OK Guys, I guess that's a wrap for me. Again, THANKS to any & all for the replies, they were / are much appreciated !
Best, dpast32
^Paragraphs man.
Nobodys gonna read that.
^Paragraphs man.
Nobodys gonna read that.
Maybe there's an APP that converts that into a readable format. ;)
If you think the approx. 1.25" inch difference is going to make you a more mobile tactical home defender you are wrong. Ultimately it's your gun and money, I just hate to see it wasted unnecessarily.
Hello Guys, First, I wish to THANK everyone for all their kind replies to this query ! I had given my choice of going 14.5" in my "primary"ready carbine, based on a few basic reasons. If it were possible, I'd like to go with a 12.5" bbl'd upper, as that particular configuration would suit my needs perfectly. However, I happen to live in an NO Class / NFA state, so anything but a permanently affixed 14.5" bbl is not possible. ( In my state, only LE agencies may own & issue NFA stuff. ) So, with my options somewhat limited, a 14.5" bbl is the shortest I'm going to get. OK, Why don't I just stay with the standard 16", as it does offer some distinct advantages over a permed 14.5" version ? ( No legal issues, slightly enhanced velocity & accuracy, etc.) But, as I said initially, this weapon will be my primary, ready carbine, used for an emergency defensive situation, & then only to contain the situation until my local LE Dept arrives on scene. So basically, this will be a weapon to defend the homestead just until the authorities arrive, at which point it becomes their game. ( Barring any unforeseen contingencies, of course. ) As far as limiting the upper's usefulness by perming the F/H, I really don't see that as a big problem. Remember, this particular upper is to for a dedicated purpose, & for what I'm intending it for, I'll take all the reduction in length I can get. It will be used at ranges between the 3 yard line, out to a maximum range of @ 75 yards, or 100 yards at the very maximum. That's why I'd truly prefer a 11.5 - 12.5" bbl, just for it's compactness & portability. At the ranges it's intended for, the muzzle velocity & energy loss due to the shorter bbl just wouldn't outweight the gain I'm getting in overall portability & usefulness. ( I'll be using either Hornandy's 75 gr. TAP (T2) loads,or perhaps SSA's 77 gr. OTM loaded to 5.56 NATO velocities. Or, just maybe, I may run it with some of the PPU 75 gr. "Poor Man's Match" loads I picked up a few years ago when the price was right.) Also, this particular bbl'd upper will be used for, & dedicated to this specific, basically short range role. I sill have my 2, 16" bbl'd Colt, a 16" bbl 6.8 Stag, a 16" LMT 308MS, & an SAI 16" SOCOM II. ( That's just the AR style stuff. ) Now, hopefully, I've shown my specific reasons why I'd prefer go as short ( & handy ) as possible for the mission at hand. Also, based on the much of the advice I've received here, I have decided that my best option would be to go with the 14.5" permed, complete upper from BCM. From what I can see on their web-site, it looks like the complete upper I need will run me @ $555, plus shipping. Honestly, I'd LOVE to pick up a Colt 6921 & have the F/H permed, but we all know that the Colt will probably run almost double of what the BCM will cost me ! Before I do actually purchase the BCM, I'll also price the same configuration, but an LMT unit, also from BCM. If the LMT is not too much more, I'll go that route. OK Guys, I guess that's a wrap for me. Again, THANKS to any & all for the replies, they were / are much appreciated !
Best, dpast32
jonbondave
07-24-15, 20:47
But, if you think a 2 to 3 inch difference is what you need hacked off, why not just build an AR pistol if you're in a no NFA state. for your intended purposes you'd lose literally nothing from doing so, you could have whatever barrel length you desired... and at least in my state it has the distinct advantage of being free to keep loaded in the trunk.
Im quite fond of the 14. 5" w permanently attached muzzle device. Assuming you methodically plan your build (put some thought into your rail and muzzle device etc.), there's very little downside. Generally speaking, the perm. attached 14.5" rig is only about a quarter of an inch longer than a legit 14.5" rig (so you do save a measurable amount of weight and length when compared to a 16"). All things being equal, there is no difference in accuracy between a 14.5" and a 16" barrel. The 14.5 is going to lose a tiny bit of velocity when compared to a 16", but the two rigs are going to manifest approximately equivalent lethality out to about 125 yrds. Regarding the 14.5 w perm. FH, I like that I don't have to beg the government for permission and then turn around and throw them 200 bucks etc. Do some research on muzzle devices and think long and hard about the purpose of the rifle you are building. As far as choosing between the options the OP listed, id probably go with the BCM upper with an appropriate permanently attached muzzle device. You need to particularly consider blast and sound pressure level of your muzzle device since this gun is going to be a HD gun. I've never used ADCO, but I was less than ecstatic with SAW.
Side note: I have a Colt 6921 upper w/ perm. A2X (bcm) flash hider. The upper sits on a 6920 lower that has a A5/bcm intermediate receiver extension installed. I love the rig and have no desire to change anything. That said, any reason why you (OP) don't want to look into a BCM 14.5 middy? Personally, I love em. :) Best of luck!
I have a bcm KMR upper with a 14.5" barrel with a permanently attached Surefire MB556K. I absolutely love it. I don't switch muzzle devices so the pinned break does not bother me and I like the reduced overall length. BCM makes a great product and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another rifle from them, as a matter of fact I plan on doing just that.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.