View Full Version : If you could only have one rifle, which one and why?
XD40Colorado
07-25-15, 14:37
For SHTF. Engagements of varying distances, out to 500 yds max.
Ammo would be MK318 until my stash ran out (currently have 1250 rounds), then some Federal GM SMK 69gr (about 200 rounds) then whatever M193 and M855 I have on hand (about another 300-400 of each), then whatever I could scavenge/scrounge.
My absolute, bug-out SHTF plan is to meet 3-4 friends and their families at one my friends' mountain cabin, 10 miles outside town. He has this great 2 level cabin on 5 acres, with a nice, 6 foot stone wall around it - pretty secure. None of us have military experience, but two are LEOs, and I've taken about 30 hours of private rifle instruction on shooting on the move, prone, manipulation of the weapon, trigger control, etc.
Use for the rifle would be "all purpose": protecting the cabin, carrying while doing perimeter checks to repair fences, check out noises etc, carrying while scavenging, maybe even hunting deer or smaller antelope if I had the right ammo (I have 100 rounds of TSX 55gr specifically stashed for this purpose, which should work on our small NM Antelope).
Also for use in non-SHTF situation as a "something triggered my ADT alarm and dogs are barking at midnight" gun, with a 400 lumen Fenix white light.
The contenders are:
Rifle 1
Bravo Company
16" ELW-F 1159E middy barrel (chromed)
13" KMR FF rail
Stock trigger, stock BCG
TR24 1-4x24 green triangle scope
Rifle 2
Daniel Defense MK12
18" Stainless barrel (CHF, nitrided)
12" AR Lite III FF rail
Geissele SSA 2 stage
TR24 1-4x24 green triangle scope
Whatcha guys think? and why?
Swap triggers and take #1.
Lighter is better.
I don't believe I've seen a thread like this on M4carbine.net but I have seen it on other forums.
I'd choose a KAC SR-15 not one of your choices. Out of your choices it would be the BCM.
XD40Colorado
07-25-15, 15:02
I agree, the difference in weight is substantial. Just worried that a pencil barrel wouldn't be accurate past 200 yards. ANy experience with this guys?
wetidlerjr
07-25-15, 15:10
More info here: One AR ONLY. What would yours look like? (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?170441-One-AR-ONLY-What-would-yours-look-like)
XD40Colorado
07-25-15, 15:18
Yeah, we can't have duplicate threads! Heaven forbid TWO posters have the same idea for a topic!!!!
I would look at #1 with a different optic. I would think 500 would be difficult with that reticle. May want to look at vortex and leupold offerings 1-4 as they seem better suited for long range and low light.
AK-74 coupled to a 45rd mag(s) packed with 7N6! This I bet you've probably never heard of> "Colt M4" w/14.5" bbl hooked-up w/ 60 & 100rd Surefire Mag(s) packed tight w/M855 Greenies!
XD40Colorado
07-25-15, 15:31
I would look at #1 with a different optic. I would think 500 would be difficult with that reticle. May want to look at vortex and leupold offerings 1-4 as they seem better suited for long range and low light.
But that 16" ELW-F barrel would be accurate at that range? Thats my main concern withrifle 1.
You're overthinking this. Most of your engagements will be under 300 in SHTFTEOTWAWKI
But that 16" ELW-F barrel would be accurate at that range? Thats my main concern withrifle 1.
Markm was tagging targets at 1k yards with his ELW.
Personally Id do an A4 rifle. Good rear flip up and an ACOG. Plus a carry handle rear sight. Forend would be a KAC RAS.
Fairly light and about as rugged as you can get.
thebarracuda
07-25-15, 16:01
If I can switch lowers, then rifle 1 with the lower from rifle 2, for the trigger. Otherwise rifle 1. Not a fan of the triangle reticle however.
I think my Colt M4/LE6920 Magpul edition would be fine. I have a Burris 1.5-6x40 on it for longer distance work, and a QD mount to go quickly to the irons. No do-dads hanging off of it. Light and handy.
Yeah, we can't have duplicate threads! Heaven forbid TWO posters have the same idea for a topic!!!!
You will see that a lot around here.......you learn to just smile and wave.
I would probably love a Sopmod Block II clone fully operator status even though I'm a complete poser.
SocomShooter
07-25-15, 17:45
Rifle #2 actually sounds a little better to me, personally. If the house sits on 5 (un-wooded) acres, that rifle seems more accurate for the longer distances, with its longer barrel and better trigger.
Swap triggers and take #1.
Lighter is better.
This right here. Lighter is the way to go. Get The BCM and add the SSA when funds permit.
Markm was tagging targets at 1k yards with his ELW.
Personally Id do an A4 rifle. Good rear flip up and an ACOG. Plus a carry handle rear sight. Forend would be a KAC RAS.
Fairly light and about as rugged as you can get.
Sounds familiar…
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/25/b1dc2d9353d1f96f134d7408224df4ac.jpg
NCGREENSWAMP13
07-25-15, 21:36
1. Arsenal SRL 107fr
2. Colt 6920
Yeah, we can't have duplicate threads! Heaven forbid TWO posters have the same idea for a topic!!!!The point wasn't that similar threads can't coexist -- it was that the last thread of this type went pear shaped and got closed and history tends to repeat itself.
Also, you might want to conserve your exclamation marks for when the SHTF. ;)
...Just worried that a pencil barrel wouldn't be accurate past 200 yards...Why wouldn't a lightweight barrel be accurate past 200 yards? Unless you're talking under sustained fire where accuracy loss comes on a little faster in a lightweight barrel due to faster heating; otherwise, I'm not aware of a lightweight barrel being less inherently accurate, especially at a relatively near range like 200 yards.
wildcard600
07-25-15, 22:37
#1
Even if SHTF you will be humping the rifle around far more than you will be engaging hostile forces at 500 yards.
Personally i would rather a 11.5-12" SBR if i had to choose one long gun for a SHTF scenario. Add a can if that is an option.
Weight is important BUT it is NOT the only consideration!
I'd go with Rifle # 2 with a different optic. Something in the 1-6x or 1-8x range.
If I had to go lighter, then a Daniel Defense DDM4V5 would fit the bill. Plenty light (unless you have girly hands & arms) but still accurate out to several hundred yards (with the right ammo and shooter).
First choice, Arsenal SLR-107FR.
Second choice, BCM RECCE-16.
Why? Training time.
OP, you need to get more realistic about your emergency planning.
500 yard engagements are going to be suppressive at best, and you're going to want to avoid firing a shot (I.E. an "I'm right here" beacon) at all costs. Hunting is not going to be sustainable, and if you do get an opportunity, the ammo you have doesn't matter... place the shot right and it'll fall. That said, if you've never hunted before, just forget the whole notion. You aren't going to go through 2000 rounds of ammo on your own, either.
If you truly believe that you could be in such a long term, lawless situation, you need to get more than three buddies, you all need to start pooling one unified source of ammo, rifles, parts, food supplies, batteries, first aid/trauma kits, etc. at the location, and you guys all need to take some team tactics and bushcraft/survival courses together.
For SHTF. Engagements of varying distances, out to 500 yds max.
Ammo would be MK318 until my stash ran out (currently have 1250 rounds), then some Federal GM SMK 69gr (about 200 rounds) then whatever M193 and M855 I have on hand (about another 300-400 of each), then whatever I could scavenge/scrounge.
My absolute, bug-out SHTF plan is to meet 3-4 friends and their families at one my friends' mountain cabin, 10 miles outside town. He has this great 2 level cabin on 5 acres, with a nice, 6 foot stone wall around it - pretty secure. None of us have military experience, but two are LEOs, and I've taken about 30 hours of private rifle instruction on shooting on the move, prone, manipulation of the weapon, trigger control, etc.
Use for the rifle would be "all purpose": protecting the cabin, carrying while doing perimeter checks to repair fences, check out noises etc, carrying while scavenging, maybe even hunting deer or smaller antelope if I had the right ammo (I have 100 rounds of TSX 55gr specifically stashed for this purpose, which should work on our small NM Antelope).
Also for use in non-SHTF situation as a "something triggered my ADT alarm and dogs are barking at midnight" gun, with a 400 lumen Fenix white light.
The contenders are:
Rifle 1
Bravo Company
16" ELW-F 1159E middy barrel (chromed)
13" KMR FF rail
Stock trigger, stock BCG
TR24 1-4x24 green triangle scope
Rifle 2
Daniel Defense MK12
18" Stainless barrel (CHF, nitrided)
12" AR Lite III FF rail
Geissele SSA 2 stage
TR24 1-4x24 green triangle scope
Whatcha guys think? and why?
Mmmmm. OoooKaayyy! Are you surviving or going to war?
.22lr bolt, 16" barrel. Iron sights. Will take down anything "I" would cross, 2 or 4 legged, Squirrel, Hog, Deer, Snake, cetra. (Cept bear). Can carry lot-n-lots of ammo. Simple to suppress. I don't intend to be shooting more than 50 to 100 yards. (Actually I'd carry my Ruger 22/45 Hunter, in a holster.)
Livefreeordie92
07-26-15, 08:17
I'd take my BCM 14.5" middy. It has a Comp M4 now but I have a TA31H-G that would be on standby since In this case I'd only have one rifle.
For SHTF. Engagements of varying distances, out to 500 yds max.
Ammo would be MK318 until my stash ran out (currently have 1250 rounds), then some Federal GM SMK 69gr (about 200 rounds) then whatever M193 and M855 I have on hand (about another 300-400 of each), then whatever I could scavenge/scrounge.
My absolute, bug-out SHTF plan is to meet 3-4 friends and their families at one my friends' mountain cabin, 10 miles outside town. He has this great 2 level cabin on 5 acres, with a nice, 6 foot stone wall around it - pretty secure. None of us have military experience, but two are LEOs, and I've taken about 30 hours of private rifle instruction on shooting on the move, prone, manipulation of the weapon, trigger control, etc.
Use for the rifle would be "all purpose": protecting the cabin, carrying while doing perimeter checks to repair fences, check out noises etc, carrying while scavenging, maybe even hunting deer or smaller antelope if I had the right ammo (I have 100 rounds of TSX 55gr specifically stashed for this purpose, which should work on our small NM Antelope).
Also for use in non-SHTF situation as a "something triggered my ADT alarm and dogs are barking at midnight" gun, with a 400 lumen Fenix white light.
The contenders are:
Rifle 1
Bravo Company
16" ELW-F 1159E middy barrel (chromed)
13" KMR FF rail
Stock trigger, stock BCG
TR24 1-4x24 green triangle scope
Rifle 2
Daniel Defense MK12
18" Stainless barrel (CHF, nitrided)
12" AR Lite III FF rail
Geissele SSA 2 stage
TR24 1-4x24 green triangle scope
Whatcha guys think? and why?
Go shoot each rifle under the conditions they are expected to be used and the question will answer itself.
When you do, come back and share what you discovered. I'm curious as to what you decide
Beat Trash
07-26-15, 10:06
I think to make it a more fair choice, you should include a SSA trigger in the BCM gun.
Once you did that, I'd go with the lighter BCM gun. As I really don't see much realistic usage past 300 yds. Most would be within 100 yds in my opinion.
Honest Answer:
My Colt 6920 with a Krylon treatment and all the 20 rounders and lube I can carry and fit in a ruck. Two or three bolts, perhaps a couple gas tubes. Maybe an ACOG, maybe not.
There are guys who made it through Vietnam with just a CAR-15.
People overthink this stuff. They spec out some high dollar AR with all this thought behind it.
Assume for a minute that...if the world is plummeted in a twisted Jericho scenario. Assume for a moment that you will likely die. Of something. Anything.
Infection, disease, exposure, etc. Not even some dude zapping you.
You realize that the nicer the gun you croak with will be taken and used by someone who:
Won't care about the thought behind it
Won't maintain it
Won't think of it as anything beyond "oh wow free gun"
Consider that. Consider that when you fantasize about an epic real life Fallout New Vegas scenario.
Me personally I'd sooner work to prevent such a hortid outcome, but if it arrives; I want the most utilitarian and non-sentimental piece of kit I can find.
JAR principle. Just Another Rifle
YMMV
I'm having a difficult time making sense of people suggesting an ak to a person who, as we know, has no trigger time on one, especially considering the intended usage.
Did some of you even read the OP's post or did you just reply to the title? He's deciding between two listed rifles, not what you would take.
I would go as light in weight as practical, with a trigger that has the best potential, with the clearest 1x? optic as possible.
Did some of you even read the OP's post or did you just reply to the title? He's deciding between two listed rifles, not what you would take.
I'm not much of a reader....besides, I didn't fancy his original two choices so I added another option.
I'm not much of a reader....besides, I didn't fancy his original two choices so I added another option.
Why are you in every thread starting shit?
KyPlinker1
07-26-15, 17:07
For a realistic SHTF type situation i would go with the lighter weight set up. I have tagged a goat sized steel at 450 with a BCM light weight 16 inch barrel and an aimpoint H1. Its not going to be a first round hit, but it works. Really depends on the situation. For situation where you are expecting engagements, i would go for the 18 inch barrel, but i don't feel like thats realistic for what you are talking about. Again, you are going to be carrying the gun more than you will be shooting it.
My KAC SR15 Legacy with TA33 acog and KAC nt4 suppressor. Super light, practically accurate and the ability to be suppressed are 3 major requirements of SHTF rifle in my opinion.
XD40Colorado
07-26-15, 17:58
Well, I shot them side-by-side today. One major conclusion I came to, is that 4x is not really adequate beyond 200 yards. I'm looking into getting a GOOD 1-6; I did have the PA ACSS 1-6 in my bag, but the glass clarity is BARF on it and the reticle is very strange: either the reticle or the target was in focus at 200 yards, but not both at the same time. Yes, I played with the diopter adjustment, just couldn't get it to work...not too surprising, I guess, for a $250 scope from China.
That said, I think I will stick with the DD MK12. With the rifle-length gas and the SSA, it just shot sweet. With m855, at 100 yards, I had a 1.25 inch group of 5 with the mk12, and 2 inches with the BCM. Both are good, no question. I just think I like the DD better --- I do wanna get the SSA into the BCM just to see how it rolls though.
How was 4x not enough past 200 yards? Ive made shots in Iraq at 400 meters in combat and out to 800-1000 (area type targets, ie vehicles and structures) at our FOB range with a 4x ACOG and my SDM-R.
How was 4x not enough past 200 yards? Ive made shots in Iraq at 400 meters in combat and out to 800-1000 (area type targets, ie vehicles and structures) at our FOB range with a 4x ACOG and my SDM-R.
With what kind of accuracy? That's impressive for sure!
With what kind of accuracy? That's impressive for sure!
Like I said, area targets. I wouldn't hit you on the first round for sure. But you wouldn't want to stand around and let me keep trying. The rifle was easily sub MOA and each of us SDMs were given a case of M262 in country, so we got to practice a lot.
HERE'S A CLEAR WARNING. KNOCK IT OFF OR GO ON VACATION.
I'm not much of a reader....besides, I didn't fancy his original two choices so I added another option.
It's the Lego theory. And it was designed for use by uneducated peasants. :rolleyes:
I'm having a difficult time making sense of people suggesting an ak to a person who, as we know, has no trigger time on one, especially considering the intended usage.
One you learn holdover, out to 400 with little wind is possible with a reddot. Magnification at that range and less is about I'd, not accuracy. I was at 450 with a 4moa reddot an began to want a reticle to compensate for wind, but still managed to keep it on a torso once I adjusted for wind.
Clear glass beats magnification. Both is best, obviously. For 500, I'd want a reference for hold overs, which the triangle does not provide. A 16" with match ammo will have adequate accuracy. I don't think much if anything will expand that far out, but I wouldn't worry about it. You put a hole in a targets vitals, Tha chances of it still being a big threat is slim, and that's not considering the slim chance of even engaging a threat at that distance.
I'd want good binoes for searching, if you find a target 500yds out, picking it up with a 4x shouldn't be hard.
Exactly. I don't care what kind of accuracy I have when I see them fall down in the middle of the road and not get back up. My shot was at 300 and back here I have hit at 500 on steel.
How was 4x not enough past 200 yards? Ive made shots in Iraq at 400 meters in combat and out to 800-1000 (area type targets, ie vehicles and structures) at our FOB range with a 4x ACOG and my SDM-R.
Well, I shot them side-by-side today. One major conclusion I came to, is that 4x is not really adequate beyond 200 yards. I'm looking into getting a GOOD 1-6; I did have the PA ACSS 1-6 in my bag, but the glass clarity is BARF on it and the reticle is very strange: either the reticle or the target was in focus at 200 yards, but not both at the same time. Yes, I played with the diopter adjustment, just couldn't get it to work...not too surprising, I guess, for a $250 scope from China.
That said, I think I will stick with the DD MK12. With the rifle-length gas and the SSA, it just shot sweet. With m855, at 100 yards, I had a 1.25 inch group of 5 with the mk12, and 2 inches with the BCM. Both are good, no question. I just think I like the DD better --- I do wanna get the SSA into the BCM just to see how it rolls though.
You're talking about SHTF. A DD Mk12 would be my choice for a range gun too over the BCM. But for hiking and generally carrying a firearm and NOT using it 99.9999999% of the time it's strapped to you? Lighter is better, especially if the trade off isn't that huge.
I'd suggest hiking around with them both for a while to see which you'd rather have.
A standard BCM 'Jack' carbine w/optic of choice. Simplicity.
funkybassplayer
07-26-15, 23:01
I'd vote for rifle one.
Personally my rifle for this situation is a BCM 14.5" pinned and welded middy with 13" KMR. Vortex 2.5-10x with 45 degree mounted mini red dot zeroed at 50 yards for closer engagement. geissele ssa and stream light tlr1. But that's just me.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/4b3ea119ef72a28d3693dddda7773bed.jpg
-BTO-
Ah. Of OPs two choices. Apologies.
I'd take the Mk. 12 with hopefully a fixed stock and maybe a nicer optic. But overall, the Mk. 12.
That's just me, though
PatrioticDisorder
07-27-15, 04:54
So with the TR24G triangle post 1-4, good luck making 500 yard hits. I also reject both of your choices, if I could only take 1 gun into the apocalypse it would be the KAC 11.5 with a quality can on it, Aimpoint micro with KAC spare battery and a quality WML, a couple extra batteries for the WML & a small bottle of fireclean. If anything maybe a G33 magnifier for the Aimpoint to help you ID a little farther out. If SHTF I'd expect 90%+ any possible defensive engagements to be 50 yards and in and 99% to be 100 yards and in. If the S really H the F and you needed to travel long distances outdoors, during daylight where you'd be easy to target would be the wrong time to put yourself out there.
People routinely train to hit 500 yard targets with irons
Why do some of you think it is impossible with a 'mere' 4x optic?
PatrioticDisorder
07-27-15, 08:41
People routinely train to hit 500 yard targets with irons
Why do some of you think it is impossible with a 'mere' 4x optic?
You ever use the TR24G with the triangle?
People routinely train to hit 500 yard targets with irons
Why do some of you think it is impossible with a 'mere' 4x optic?
Marines have done it forever with irons for qual.
When I had to use the Acog for qual I actually did better with irons all the previous times.
Learning curve, I put more effort into making hits with irons than I did using magnification.
People routinely train to hit 500 yard targets with irons
Why do some of you think it is impossible with a 'mere' 4x optic?
Routinely? I have trouble even seeing my paper targets at 500 yards with my Leupold 3-9x40mm. VX-2 scope...........how on earth can you even see what you are shooting at through sights from that distance?
This is where I train, and the tree line is exactly 500 yards. If you can hit paper with no magnification good on you, but with my eyes I'm pray and spraying.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac275/tyhockstaff/IMG_2678_zpsnnno0cpz.jpg
XD40Colorado
07-27-15, 09:56
Yeah, I agree, the TR24 needs to go. Just not enough.
XD40Colorado
07-27-15, 09:58
Routinely? I have trouble even seeing my paper targets at 500 yards with my Leupold 3-9x40mm. VX-2 scope...........how on earth can you even see what you are shooting at through sights from that distance?
This is where I train, and the tree line is exactly 500 yards. If you can hit paper with no magnification good on you, but with my eyes I'm pray and spraying.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac275/tyhockstaff/IMG_2678_zpsnnno0cpz.jpg
You and I are thinking of it differently than others. By hits, I'm assuming they mean "put the shot somewhere on a man-sized target". I want to hit vitals, have more accurate fire.
......yeah man sized hits. Not perfect little headshots like in Hollywood.
At risk of sounding morbid, even if I just hit Bad Guy X with an abdomen shot at 500 yards and he lingers for 5 minutes paralyzed, in agonizing pain, with his blood stream being deluged with fecal matter as he expires; then I'm okay with that.
I personally suck. And if I can ding a human shaped target at 500 with A2 sights then potentially anyone could.
I'd check into an Appleseed or DCM match.
I think if more 500 yard ranges were available with coaches in pith helmets then this wouldn't seem so outlandish
PatrioticDisorder
07-27-15, 10:22
Yeah, I agree, the TR24 needs to go. Just not enough.
It's not really that's it's not enough per se, the triangle is huge and just under it are 2 thick posts will obscure your target making even a "Kentucky elevation" hold over very difficult to say the least. You could theoretically dial the scope in to that distance but it lacks zero stops and is capped, from a practical standpoint it was not meant for 500 yard shots.
You ever use the TR24G with the triangle?
I don't have one but it doesn't seem much different from a 4x ACOG.
Unless the accupoint just has a completely radical departure from an acog.
But no, I do not have one
A62Rambler
07-27-15, 10:25
For SHTF. Engagements of varying distances, out to 500 yds max.
Ammo would be ... then whatever I could scavenge/scrounge.
Also for use in non-SHTF situation as a "something triggered my ADT alarm and dogs are barking at midnight" gun, with a 400 lumen Fenix white light.
I'd suggest you go shoot your rifles at targets of varying distances out to 500 yds max and then you'll know which one you shoot the best. I'd also suggest you see which is easiest to carry while hunting, fixing fences, doing perimeter checks etc.... I'd also shoot it at midnight using a white light. Then you'll be able to answer your own question. What I or any other poster uses varies and should be based on our experience actually shooting under similar situations. I'd also suggest buying practice ammo and shooting what you have more and you will develop an idea if they work for you. My choice isn't either of your two choices but then I live in a different time zone, climate and am more worried about today and what is really happening than some future SHTF unknown. ;) Good luck practicing and making your own informed decsion.
P.S. Why only one? You describe a static situation so why can't you take them both?
XD40Colorado
07-27-15, 12:02
I'd suggest you go shoot your rifles at targets of varying distances out to 500 yds max and then you'll know which one you shoot the best. I'd also suggest you see which is easiest to carry while hunting, fixing fences, doing perimeter checks etc.... I'd also shoot it at midnight using a white light. Then you'll be able to answer your own question. What I or any other poster uses varies and should be based on our experience actually shooting under similar situations. I'd also suggest buying practice ammo and shooting what you have more and you will develop an idea if they work for you. My choice isn't either of your two choices but then I live in a different time zone, climate and am more worried about today and what is really happening than some future SHTF unknown. ;) Good luck practicing and making your own informed decsion.
P.S. Why only one? You describe a static situation so why can't you take them both?
Hahah. Can't take them both, because I bought them both, and really should only have bought one, so deciding which to sell! LOL.
Also I think I am looking at this the wrong way. The 16 and 18 should be equally accurate, benched at 500 yards, for slow and steady shots. Right? A pencil barrel is not going to be less accurate just because it's lighter weight. I think it would lose accuracy if firing a few magazines at fairly rapid pace, but I can't ever really see myself being in a full-on combat situation, where I'd have to use all the 6 mags I carry on my PC.
So essentially, benched, slow fire, they should be equally accurate...right?
Benched slow fire Id bet the Mk12 is going to be more accurate. We arent trying the say the Mk12 isnt more accurate. We are saying that the BCM is plenty accurate for your needs.
Lets say the Mk12 is a 1 MOA gun and the BCM is a 1.5-2 MOA gun with good ammo. Not a long stretch for either rifle. At 50 yards, in perfect conditions from a rest, the Mk12 will put down a 5-6 inch group while the BCM will put down a 7-10 inch group. While the BCM group is bigger its still perfectly accurate for social situations and it will be much easier to carry around.
Tommycanada
07-27-15, 13:01
option 1 for the win
Benched slow fire Id bet the Mk12 is going to be more accurate. We arent trying the say the Mk12 isnt more accurate. We are saying that the BCM is plenty accurate for your needs.
Lets say the Mk12 is a 1 MOA gun and the BCM is a 1.5-2 MOA gun with good ammo. Not a long stretch for either rifle. At 50 yards, in perfect conditions from a rest, the Mk12 will put down a 5-6 inch group while the BCM will put down a 7-10 inch group. While the BCM group is bigger its still perfectly accurate for social situations and it will be much easier to carry around.
You meant 500 yards, right?
XD40Colorado
07-27-15, 15:29
You meant 500 yards, right?
Obviously that what's he meant. :rolleyes:
Yes I meant 500.
Here is one of our members Trident shooting a light weight at long range.
https://youtu.be/H_cIuMw0_R0
That's impressive.....using Hornady 75 grainers (which I have had good success with out to 500). I wonder what kind of glass he was using?
If I remember right it's a Nightforce NXS 2.5-10.
You and I are thinking of it differently than others. By hits, I'm assuming they mean "put the shot somewhere on a man-sized target". I want to hit vitals, have more accurate fire.
Just to clarify some things. When I talk about hits Im talking about combat effective hits. That means torso hits. Your BCM, unless its broken, is easily capable of that at 500 yards.
I was discussing this with IraqGunz tonight and he said it best. No dude at 300 yards is going to get hit in the chest and look down and say "what is that a 3 MOA group?"
Just to clarify some things. When I talk about hits Im talking about combat effective hits. That means torso hits. Your BCM, unless its broken, is easily capable of that at 500 yards.
I was discussing this with IraqGunz tonight and he said it best. No dude at 300 yards is going to get hit in the chest and look down and say "what is that a 3 MOA group?"
If you shot markm at 300 yds with anything bigger than a 1.5 MOA group, he'd probably see it as an insult, decide not to return fire as it would be beneath him, adjust his plate carrier, and go back to skating and reloading.
If you shot markm at 300 yds with anything bigger than a 1.5 MOA group, he'd probably see it as an insult, decide not to return fire as it would be beneath him, adjust his plate carrier, and go back to skating and reloading.
Markm has never even seen a group that big. He pees sub MOA.
Yes I meant 500.
Here is one of our members Trident shooting a light weight at long range.
https://youtu.be/H_cIuMw0_R0
Nice video. You can see the air distortion from the bullets.
Green Team
07-29-15, 11:57
I am a little OCD and think that having the right tool for the exact job at hand is always the best way to go. But I do have some significant real world experience with guns and shooting. Over four decades with this platform and others. When I read how folks say this rifle, this barrel is only accurate out to xyz distance I cringe!! In all my shooting, on the flat range, or the two way range, varried conditions, rifle or pistol, I have found my self to be the weak link of the shooting chain. Not the gun. Not the ammo. In all the matches I've won and lost. In all the shots I've made, both short and long, with good guns and bad, I've been the guy to make the shot or blow it big time.
I say all this to point out the shooters skill is far more important than his equipment when making the shot is the most important thing.
Now of those two rifles first I think you should expand your choices. Secondly I'd say that a light weight rifle can and has been used in longer engagements than most people believe. Lighter is much better from the carrying and moving and quick up close engagements. It would handily cover all those requirements but to think that it is only good out to 200 or 300 or even 500 yards limits ones thinking and thus limits ones ability. It would be more correct to say the Mk 12 would make the longer shots easier (you would like to expand your optics choice). There are many factors that enable a shooter to always make the shot that have nothing to do with how light or long the barrel. And of course a well disciplined/well trained shooter with less than ideal equipment is a better warfighter than a mediocre shot with a perfect rifle.
cjnuckols50
07-29-15, 12:03
#1 and here is why.
My personal rifle is a BCM with a PST 1-4 on top, SSA-E trigger and an ELW barrel. You'll think I'm full of it but it shot MOA with XM193 using this set up. Also shot fed 69grn smks MOA.
My point is both rifles will be plenty accurate (even at distance) for you intended use. The first one is just lighter. Youre going to be carrying the sucker more than you'll be protecting yourself with it.
My two cents.
My personal rifle is a BCM with a PST 1-4 on top, SSA-E trigger and an ELW barrel. You'll think I'm full of it but it shot MOA with XM193 using this set up.
While I agree with your choice, you did correctly predict my reaction to your claim. Do you consistently or at least average out at MOA or smaller with a large number of groups? Any barrel with any ammo can produce a group at or under 1 MOA. Consistent small groups is what matters.
XD40Colorado
07-29-15, 12:53
IraqGunz:
No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?" - ROFL, love this.
Now let's throw a wrench in the mix. Why is CHF a good trait to have on a barrel?
IraqGunz:
No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?" - ROFL, love this.
Now let's throw a wrench in the mix. Why is CHF a good trait to have on a barrel?
CHF is a barrel making process. Supposedly its makes a more consistent barrel for mass production. That isnt to say though that a normal barrel isnt just as good. My Colt 6920 barrel isnt CHF and is a great barrel. Molon just did some testing of the Colt SOCOM barrels and that thing was ridiculously accurate for a run of the mill barrel. A good barrel is a good barrel no matter how its made.
XD40Colorado
07-29-15, 14:10
C-grunt, thank you for all responses. Really appreciate that dude.
Another video of a plain jane BCM carbine at range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEuS2P4XGm4
750 yards with a non match BCM barrel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEuS2P4XGm4
JBecker 72
07-29-15, 14:18
I'd be fine with an off the shelf Colt, BCM, LMT, etc M4 carbine with a decent rail and a Surefire or Streamlight torch.
If you have the area to safely do it, set up a "scrambler" drill, throw all of you shit on and run it with each, for time/accuracy... I bet you will come away with some additional data points to consider. Just my .02.
While I agree with your choice, you did correctly predict my reaction to your claim. Do you consistently or at least average out at MOA or smaller with a large number of groups? Any barrel with any ammo can produce a group at or under 1 MOA. Consistent small groups is what matters.
Agreed! I know I got banned for calling out people who posted up sub MOA claims, so I won't open up that can of worms again, but the term MOA and "sub" MOA gets thrown around a lot in here (and other forums) and 90% of those claims go unsubstantiated.
Barack H. Obama
07-29-15, 18:12
14.5" lightweight mid-length carbine equipped with a forward mounted Surefire mini-scount + pressure switch, an Aimpoint T1/T2 dot sight, and a quality set of FUBUIS. This would do everything I need it to do inside 300 meters. Brand irrelevant. DD, BCM, KAC, Colt, LMT, ...any of those would do. F**k the bullshit.
Beat Trash
07-29-15, 19:57
Replace the pressure switch with a tail switch, and you just described the gun sitting behind me as my Patrol Rifle while at work.
In my personal life, this is the same gun I would use to defend the home, or to grab should the ever discussed SHTF incident occur. But then where I live, 99% of shots would be under 200 yards. Most would be well under 100 yards.
Drive about an hour north of me and the terrain opens up and becomes very flat. Think middle of Kansas type of flat. If I lived there, my needs and therefor my thoughts on hou to set up an AR would be a bit different.
cjnuckols50
07-29-15, 23:14
While I agree with your choice, you did correctly predict my reaction to your claim. Do you consistently or at least average out at MOA or smaller with a large number of groups? Any barrel with any ammo can produce a group at or under 1 MOA. Consistent small groups is what matters.
It's been consistant with match loads under a realistic rate of fire. This particular lot of 193 has been consistant as well. Obviously as the barrel heats up, things change. But even in a situation the OP describes I don't think the rate of fire will be high or prolongend.
For SHTF I'd put durability over the lightest weight...not making any claims about either of the rifles in the OP. I've used the KMR rail and it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies personally, but I'm also a guy that has shit break a lot so I'm really critical of some things and maybe not even reasonably so. I guess I'd rather have a little more weight in exchange for more confidence that all the parts on the gun are extremely durable.
And I'd be happy with the TR24 triangle reticle too, simply because I wouldn't expect to be using it at longer distances for anything more than ID. For longer shots that reticle does present a problem since holdovers are near impossible, so that scope is probably the wrong choice if you really do think 500m shots are needed.
XD40Colorado
07-30-15, 20:44
For SHTF I'd put durability over the lightest weight...not making any claims about either of the rifles in the OP. I've used the KMR rail and it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies personally, but I'm also a guy that has shit break a lot so I'm really critical of some things and maybe not even reasonably so. I guess I'd rather have a little more weight in exchange for more confidence that all the parts on the gun are extremely durable.
And I'd be happy with the TR24 triangle reticle too, simply because I wouldn't expect to be using it at longer distances for anything more than ID. For longer shots that reticle does present a problem since holdovers are near impossible, so that scope is probably the wrong choice if you really do think 500m shots are needed.
Welp, I compromised. I took the KMR rail, put it on the MK12, and slapped an accupoint 1-6 with mildot reticle on top. Haven't shot it yet, that will be this weekend. I just worry --- completely unrealistically --- that the pencil profile will get too hot after a mag and cause me to not hit shots that the MK12 would otherwise hit. In all likelihood, I will NEVER be in a situation where I'll need more than 4-5 shots at a time, much less mag after mag....but you never know. Could be riots, gang activity, etc. Honestly that extra pound of weight in extra barrel length and profile on the MK12 doesn't feel that heavy to me, and seems worth the extra pound. This setup should be good for muzzle to 500 yards.
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