View Full Version : Larry Thorne - Finnish Army, Wafen-SS, US Army Special Forces
Seems like a heck of an interesting military career:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_T%C3%B6rni
Moose-Knuckle
08-01-15, 13:57
Damn.
I will have to ask my brother if he ever ran across him. He was 5thSF and SOG during the same time frame.
Ned Christiansen
08-01-15, 14:52
Yeah this guy's story is incredible.... have read a bit about him and I have a pal in Finland who is an avid historian of American SF, has quite a bit of material about him. He even sent me a cartoon version of Lauri's story, in Finnish!
Soldier Under Three Flags-- find it and read it.
Yeah this guy's story is incredible.... have read a bit about him and I have a pal in Finland who is an avid historian of American SF, has quite a bit of material about him. He even sent me a cartoon version of Lauri's story, in Finnish!
Soldier Under Three Flags-- find it and read it.
My dad's family is Fin, his exploits are indeed known there. Helluva story....THAT should be a movie.
My dad's family is Fin, his exploits are indeed known there. Helluva story....THAT should be a movie.
Hard to have a movie where the hero was a member of the Waffen SS, even if he is fighting communists.
I dunno. How about "Larry Thorne: Super Green Beret"? :D
http://www.ep.tc/tod-holton/
Hard to have a movie where the hero was a member of the Waffen SS, even if he is fighting communists.
Just do it accurately. His biography is amazing.
MountainRaven
08-01-15, 19:57
Hard to have a movie where the hero was a member of the Waffen SS, even if he is fighting communists.
I seem to recall there being a movie about a pair of German brothers who join the Nazi party, one of whom ultimately joins the Algemeine-SS, while the other joins the Heer. I don't really remember much, except the brother who joined the army goes all defeatist after narrowly escaping capture at Stalingrad and his brother in the SS (who is advancing steadily) has to protect him from the political fallout from being a defeatist and gets him reassigned to a penal brigade (the alternative being sent to a concentration camp).
In any case, it would probably be pretty easy in the making of the film to gloss over Törni's post-Continuation War hook up with the SS, the accompanying trial for treason against Finland, and the ensuing light sentence and eventual pardon. Have him as a boxer in the beginning, fighting the Soviets during the Winter War, losing his home, going to Germany and training with the SS, going back to Finland when the Continuation War starts, then kind of fade out when Finland and the Soviet Union agree to their separate peace and then fade back in to Larry Thorne with MAC V SOG in Vietnam.
It would probably be better to do it as an HBO miniseries, like John Adams or Band of Brothers, some ten episodes long:
Episode 1: Growing up, boxing career, Soviet invasion.
Episode 2: Lauri fights Soviets.
Episode 3: The Winter War ends, Lauri goes to Germany.
Episode 4: Lauri trains with the SS, then heads for home, and Finland enters the war.
Episode 5: Lauri kills Soviets, Battle of Tali-Ihantala, Finnish-Soviet armistice.
Episode 6: Finland declares war against Germany, Lauri flees Finland, joins the SS, then surrenders to the British.
Episode 7: Lauri escapes the British, returns to Finland, and is arrested by the Valpo. Trial for treason, sentencing. (The trial should probably be most of the episode.)
Episode 8: Pardoned, leaves prison (his prior escape from this prison can be covered by dialogue), heads to the US by way of Sweden, working aboard ships, and then swimming. Lauri meets "Wild" Bill Donovan, becomes Larry, joins the US Army, gets into SF.
Episode 9: Larry becomes an instructor then an officer, SAR in Zagros, Iran. Receives orders deploying him to Vietnam.
Episode 10: Vietnam war and death.
Outlander Systems
08-01-15, 20:40
Dude is a hero in 10th Group.
Dude is a hero in 10th Group.
For the aforementioned reasons or is there more to the story?
I seem to recall there being a movie about a pair of German brothers who join the Nazi party, one of whom ultimately joins the Algemeine-SS, while the other joins the Heer. I don't really remember much, except the brother who joined the army goes all defeatist after narrowly escaping capture at Stalingrad and his brother in the SS (who is advancing steadily) has to protect him from the political fallout from being a defeatist and gets him reassigned to a penal brigade (the alternative being sent to a concentration camp).
In any case, it would probably be pretty easy in the making of the film to gloss over Törni's post-Continuation War hook up with the SS, the accompanying trial for treason against Finland, and the ensuing light sentence and eventual pardon. Have him as a boxer in the beginning, fighting the Soviets during the Winter War, losing his home, going to Germany and training with the SS, going back to Finland when the Continuation War starts, then kind of fade out when Finland and the Soviet Union agree to their separate peace and then fade back in to Larry Thorne with MAC V SOG in Vietnam.
It would probably be better to do it as an HBO miniseries, like John Adams or Band of Brothers, some ten episodes long:
Episode 1: Growing up, boxing career, Soviet invasion.
Episode 2: Lauri fights Soviets.
Episode 3: The Winter War ends, Lauri goes to Germany.
Episode 4: Lauri trains with the SS, then heads for home, and Finland enters the war.
Episode 5: Lauri kills Soviets, Battle of Tali-Ihantala, Finnish-Soviet armistice.
Episode 6: Finland declares war against Germany, Lauri flees Finland, joins the SS, then surrenders to the British.
Episode 7: Lauri escapes the British, returns to Finland, and is arrested by the Valpo. Trial for treason, sentencing. (The trial should probably be most of the episode.)
Episode 8: Pardoned, leaves prison (his prior escape from this prison can be covered by dialogue), heads to the US by way of Sweden, working aboard ships, and then swimming. Lauri meets "Wild" Bill Donovan, becomes Larry, joins the US Army, gets into SF.
Episode 9: Larry becomes an instructor then an officer, SAR in Zagros, Iran. Receives orders deploying him to Vietnam.
Episode 10: Vietnam war and death.
Yeah, you "should" be able to do it something like that. I just don't see Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks making this one happen.
In parts of Europe they are starting to make a few objective films, the series "The War Generation" comes to mind. But for the most part, in a US film, anyone with Sig rhunes on their collar better be the equivalent of Amon Goeth as portrayed by Ralph Fiennes.
Personally I'd love to see his story done, never even heard of him before. Of course we often omit the Winter War and it's heroes due to Russia flipping sides and making Finland magically transform from victim of "Non Aggression Pact" Russia to Axis enemy of our valuable ally Russia.
I can imagine the wealth of experience he brought to SF.
Outlander Systems
08-01-15, 21:19
For the aforementioned reasons or is there more to the story?
Just for being the OG Stud/Total Meateater.
Spurholder
08-02-15, 08:29
Here's another guy worth knowing about:
Back in the late 80's, I went to college with a recent retiree that worked with Stefan Mazak in Vietnam (Project SIGMA). He told me that Mazak never went anywhere without a good sized stash of Class I. Apparently, he almost starved to death when he was a resistance fighter, and promised himself that he'd never go hungry again.
He fought pretty much all his life - World War II, Korea, various places with La Legion, Africa, Vietnam.
Africa? Yeah - what a story:
In 1960, SFC Mazak and two other SF team members went on a classified mission in the Congo to help save American and European lives. This team consisted of three helicopters, three light single engine airplanes, an Air Force radio expert, and the SF element from Bad Tolz. A meeting with Ambassador Timberlake and Belgian paratroopers took place and the mission was defined. At the larger airfields, Belgian paratroopers would be in charge. The SF team would control operations on the smaller airfields.
The mission was to evacuate as many Europeans and Americans as possible and move them to Leopoldville for large scale evacuation. After assembling the refugees at an airstrip in Gwendje, 1LT Fointiane (the SF team leader - actual name Sully de Fontaine, now COL(R) and another former MACV-SOG guy) found himself surrounded by a screaming horde of rebel troops. He managed to reach SFC Mazak on the radio, and while he waited for Mazak to show with Belgian paratroop reinforcements, Fontaine had pulled the pin on a grenade and handed the pin to the rebel leader, who had just informed Fontaine that all whites were going to die.
2 hours later, SFC Mazak charged out of the brush into the center of the mob, firing his SMG into the air and bellowing imprecations in foul legionnaire French.
Fontaine took that opportunity to chuck the grenade into the crowd, and the rebels fled. The team was airborne with the refugees in minutes.
Despite enemy contact resulting in a few holes in their aircraft, the mission was accomplished. In fact, nine days following their arrival, the SF team evacuated 239 refugees without a single casualty.
https://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=Person&ID=59484
It said his affiliation with the SS was during his training early in the war when the Finns sent him to Vienna. When he fought with the Germans against the Russians later in the war it didn't say he was in an SS unit (could've been just a Wermacht unit).
Is there clarification on this?
MountainRaven
08-02-15, 13:43
It said his affiliation with the SS was during his training early in the war when the Finns sent him to Vienna. When he fought with the Germans against the Russians later in the war it didn't say he was in an SS unit (could've been just a Wermacht unit).
Is there clarification on this?
The ranks Törni is shown as having held on Wikipedia with the Germans during his time are Nazi paramilitary ranks, most commonly used by the SS: Untersturmführer and Hauptsturmführer. It appears that the German organization he served with - Sonderkommando Nord - was a part of German intelligence operation (joint SD (the SS's intelligence division) and Abwehr (the German state's intelligence agency)) established to run resistance operations against the allies in Scandinavia.
Cited translation from the Finnish wikipedia page:
Sonderkommando Nord was a special unit founded by Nazi Germany's intelligence services during the end phase of the World War II when Lapland War was being fought and it was tasked with leading and supporting pro-German resistance movement operating in Finland. Resistance movement had prepared for armed conflict with German support in case Soviet Union would occupy Finland.
Background
During Continuation War two German intelligence gathering services had operated in Finland: SS's intelligence service SD and OKW's (German main headquarters) military intelligence service Abwehr. SD organization in Finland was lead by Sturmbannführer (SS major) Alarik Bross and the other by Kriegsmarine's Fregattenkapitän Alexander Cellarius. In February 1944 both organizations were brought together under SD's leadership and in August major Bross as appointed as the chief of German intelligence services in Finland. At the same time he was tasked with creating pro-German resistance movement into Finland. During August a resistance movement was formed according to SD plans within Vapaussodan Rintamamiesten Liitto (Alliance of Freedom War's Servicemen ?).
Forming the unit
Finland resigned from co-operations with Germany on 2 September 1944. German units withdrew from Southern Finland within a week. For the intelligence services moving out of Finland a new unit was formed especially to operate as the head of the resistance movement which was named as Sonderkommando Nord and was subordinated to Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the chief of the highest level security organization in Germany - the RSHA or Reichssicherheitshauptamt (Reich Main Security Office). Major Bross was appointed as the sections' (or departments') chief of staff.
Base for the unit was founded to island of Usedom in the German Baltic coast at spa town of Heringsdorf controlled by Kriegsmarine. In its vicinity was for example the research center of Peenemünde. Personnel was gathered from Finnish SS men and from the defecting soldiers of the Lapland War. Contact with Finland was handled with radios and submarines. Contact with the Finns operated at least until April 1945 even though the head of the resistance movement was already by that time moving away from being directed by the German. Unit ended its operations at the latest when German military surrendered on 8 May 1945.
Propaganda and special training
Sonderkommande Nord supported Finnish Vapaa Suomi -radio station (Free Finland) which sent Finnish news programs. During the Lapland War it urged for continued co-operation with the Germans (in their struggle) against the Red Army. In addition different propaganda leaflets were published.
Major Bross the chief of staff of Sonderkommando Nord proposed on 17 January 1945 to the Finnish leadership of the resistance movement a formation of government-in-exile to Stockholm. At the same time sabotage were to be performed against the Finnish war reparations industry. Representative of the resistance movement, Johan Fabritius however rejected both proposals.
Sonderkommando Nord started in February 1945 at Heringsdorf training of Finns to intelligence operations. First course consisted of telegraphing and cryptography training for roughly ten SS men. Trainees for the course were received from different places; they included Finnish POWs recruited from Lapland War's POW camps and other Finnish soldiers who had willingly moved to the German side. Bulk of the men came from German occupied fortress of Kongsviken from Norway were Finnish SS men had been trained as squad leaders for the units that were to be formed of Finnish volunteers. When there were only few volunteers the squad leaders were sent to Heringsdorf. In addition roughly ten first mates and chief of engineering were received from the interned Finnish merchant vessels.
Detachment of thirty Finnish SS men was formed into Major Otto Skorzeny's Jadgregiment 1 at Neusterlitz. Detachment was meant to be trained for armed special operations but training couldn't be started before the war was already over. Into the same regiment were recruited couple of dozen Finnish female volunteers who had communications training of those Finnish females who had moved with German troops to Norway and to Germany.
None of the trainees could be sent to Finland before the war was over. Some of the men were sent to Norway.
Most famous of the resistance fighters trained by Sonderkommando Nord was Lauri Törni whom the resistance movement managed to sent to Germany to receive special training in 1945. Because Törni defected during time of war he was sentenced later in Finland of (high) treason to six years in prison and to lose civil trust for four years. Törni also lost his military rank.
Resistance movement in Finland
Resistance movement was led by Lt. Colonel Johan Fabritius, PhD Vilho Helanen, Lt. Seppo Heikkilä, engineer Kari Sundholm and journalist Karl Jansson, last of whom coordinated the operations from the town hotel of Kristiinankaupunki. Finland was split to organizational precincts and movement had nationwide radio network for communications which was led by Danish Thoralf Kyrre from Helsinki. Movement had undercover transport network in Finland and in Sweden and necessary equipment which it used to smuggle hundreds of people out of Finland.
Link to the original Finnish: Here (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saksalaismielinen_vastarintaliike_Suomessa).
And from C.G. McKay, "Studies in secret service based on the Swedish experience 1939-45" (London, 1993):
The Finnish-Soviet Armistice had obvious repercussions for the various branches of the German intelligence service in Finland. In August 1944, Himmler had ordered Kaltenbrunner to organise underground communications networks, manned by pro-Nazi elements, in those areas likely to be occupied by Russia. The idea was that such networks would form the nucleus of a German controlled partisan movement. To this end, the head of the SD in Finland, SS-Sturmbannführer Alarich [Alarik] Bross, had set up two clandestine radio stations just before Finland broke off relations with Germany. The original plan was for Bross to proceed to Stockholm from where he would direct his partisans but this scheme failed to get off the ground. Instead Bross and his Abwehr collegue, Alexander Cellarius, withdrew to Swinemünde where they continued their activities under the name of Sonderkommando Nord. This was said to have subsections in Denmark and Norway and agents in Stockholm.
I suppose it is possible that the men of Sonderkommando Nord were simply given ranks from their previous service with Germany - and therefore Törni's previous service with the SS meant that his promotions would be in SS ranks. However, it appears that the Abwehr was the junior partner in the operation and Sonderkommando Nord was chiefly an SD-SS affair.
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