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Would not the 9mm Luger or 40SW be better choices for home defense? Now that we all have spent a fortune on 5.56 guns? What say you? Thanks...
Eurodriver
08-03-15, 11:37
Gary,
Why would a cartridge that over penetrates and has less energy used in a firearm that is less accurate and has less capacity be a "better choice for home defense"?
An AR15 in 5.56 penetrates interior walls less (http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/), has more energy, is more accurate, and has a higher capacity than any 9mm or .40 firearm.
Regards,
Eurodriver
If youre going to shoot a lot, 9mm is cheaper. Has less recoil, so will be easier to get quick second shots. 40 s&w will take more practice for this.
Good defensive ammunition makes the caliber difference almost negligible.
No matter what caliber you choose, hit location matters.
Get what you can use most effectively.
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Would not the 9mm Luger or 40SW be better choices for home defense? Now that we all have spent a fortune on 5.56 guns? What say you? Thanks...
That the search option is your friend....
Would not the 9mm Luger or 40SW be better choices for home defense? Now that we all have spent a fortune on 5.56 guns? What say you? Thanks...
Is is it suitable? Yes. With that said, it greatly lacks behind a Hornady GMX based load in 70gr (or BH's equv.). Always go with the options that give YOU the best ability to survive a fight.
C4
Personally I think a flamethrower would be the best option. Lots of energy and basically no penetration, but still extremely effective.....
Biased Personal Opinion:
For indoors, close quarters I like my old HK M1 Benelli w/ full mag capacity tube. 00 Buck. Unpopular opinion these days, but it's what I trained on early on for room clearing and it's what I feel comfortable with. This, however, assumes unarmored threats per an unorganized home invasion. Bear in mind if you go the shotgun route, you must be very well versed and up to date with reloading on the fly as well as have a shell carrier or a shell feeder on a belt/vest. If you run dry on a shotgun you are SOL.
That said, for an AR15 centric home defense method, I would sooner use 50gr or 53gr SP ammo. I don't see what you would gain from a 9mm. Pretty much everyone who does entries for a living have gone to short barrel M4s and suppressors. Anyone who uses a SMG is someone who couldn't get an AR.
You might as well use a pistol.
Plus. I don't really trust pistol cal ARs.
If they are light armored home invasion threat, then you're going to need something other than a pistol round. The adage is true: a pistol really isn't the best thing to shoot someone with.
KalashniKEV
08-03-15, 14:05
Personally I think a flamethrower would be the best option. Lots of energy and basically no penetration, but still extremely effective.....
Exactly.
Best choice?
Any intruder confronted with a 9mm Glock, 1911, MP5, AR, AK, or Shotty is... at a disadvantage.
Best ammo, wall penetration, multiple attackers, and lawyers holding your gun up in front of a jury is all just stuff to argue about.
The only thing important thing is that a gun needs to be present, loaded, and hopefully with a light attached to it.
When SWAT and military members in CQB situations switch to 9mm, I'll consider the same. The fact they mostly use SBRs in 5.56 is the only endorsement I need.
Would not the 9mm Luger or 40SW be better choices for home defense? Now that we all have spent a fortune on 5.56 guns? What say you? Thanks...
No. Browse the terminal ballistics forum here, and check out the "box o truth"website. 5.56 will stop a threat quicker, more reliably and with less penetration risk than pistol rounds.
Don't know why I'm posting, you guys scared Gary off. :D
For the most part what KEV said parallels my thoughts on the matter.
I think one of the things you need to do first is a reasonable assessment of the realistic threat - yes it is possible that the entire Sinaloa Cartel could bust your door, or the SWAT team of a rogue billionaire could fast rope from a Jet Ranger into your backyard, but it is more than likely that anything you will need to fight off will be a drunk/drugged intruder or a crew of home invaders (smaller than a Special Forces A Team in all likelihood).
In reality, a shotgun with a fully loaded extended magazine tube (7 or 8 rounds) would be more than adequate in 99.9999% of the cases. Likewise so would a fully loaded doublestack 9mm (12+ rounds). So therefore an AR with a 30 round magazine would definitely not be a liability.
In terms of armor - the only immediately incapacitating rounds are those that impact the central nervous system - I don't care what you shot the guy with - if you explode his heart and don't get the high CNS, he still has 10-20 seconds of life to get rounds on you if he is focused. My thought is that the focus ought to be hits centered on the throat above the suprasternal notch (aka jugular notch) - those are going to impact the cervical vertebrae high enough to cause loss of control to the hands - a vertebrae or two higher up and he's going to need a ventilator, etc.
Face shooting someone with a 12ga at room distance will probably put a pellet or two where they need to be, so would 3 to 5 rounds out of that SMG.
What I'm trying to say is - be realistic, develop a plan that works with what you have, improve your equipment as you can.
I've had guard duty at the hospital more than a few times after one of our officers has shot a suspect. We use primarily 180 grn HST .40s and 230 grn +P .45s (recently 9mm has been approved, 124 grn +P Golddots, but the few shootings we've had with it have all been fatal). I have never had to guard someone shot by our 55 grn Federal TRU .223. Hell I've never even heard of the suspect being transported by EMS.
I also heard one of our homicide detectives joke and say the rifle shootings are far easier to investigate due to far fewer rounds fired and the fact that the suspect rarely moves anywhere after being shot.
Agreed that the effectiveness of a AR carbine or rifle is undisputable at close range. For that matter, so is a 12 Gauge buckshot load.
One other factor to consider is the muzzle blast and noise associated with firing a rifle or shotgun indoors. Unless you don ear pro or have a can on your rifle, this may be a consideration. Firing a .223/ 5.56 round indoors can be extremely loud and disorienting.
Personally, in a self-defense scenario, I keep a SIG 226 pistol loaded with 15 rounds of +p ammo on the night-stand. That said, I do keep both an AR with several magazines and a 12 Gauge at the front of the safe.
I think for some, whom don't have access to an AR carbine, or better an SBR with a suppressor, a 9mm carbine may have some utility if over-penetration is not a primary consideration in an indoor self-defense scenario.
I would like to say that before we discount armor considerations that there are people who do home invasions with soft body armor.
Soft body armor is cheaper and easier to buy/steal than plate. It's not quite the norm, but is more prevalent than in times past.
As per firing a shotgun or rifle indoors, BTDT. Auditory exclusion is real but you will join the tinnitus club.
I would like to say that before we discount armor considerations that there are people who do home invasions with soft body armor.
Soft body armor is cheaper and easier to buy/steal than plate. It's not quite the norm, but is more prevalent than in times past.
As per firing a shotgun or rifle indoors, BTDT. Auditory exclusion is real but you will join the tinnitus club.
^This is a fact.^
You may also have other health issues if you have exposed yourself repeatedly to firing a rifle indoors. Even if you double up and use both earplugs and headphones, you can still feel the pressure on the skull.
For a homeowner concerned with shooting at distances related to home defense, I think a good .223 55g SP does a good job and would give you an edge over a pistol round. Unless you fired thousands of rifle rounds in an enclosed space, the most you would have to concern yourself with is tinnitus.
(Reconsidering life choices)
What does "home defense" mean?
Different tools for different tasks, and all that...
PatrioticDisorder
08-04-15, 09:00
Agreed that the effectiveness of a AR carbine or rifle is undisputable at close range. For that matter, so is a 12 Gauge buckshot load.
One other factor to consider is the muzzle blast and noise associated with firing a rifle or shotgun indoors. Unless you don ear pro or have a can on your rifle, this may be a consideration. Firing a .223/ 5.56 round indoors can be extremely loud and disorienting.
Personally, in a self-defense scenario, I keep a SIG 226 pistol loaded with 15 rounds of +p ammo on the night-stand. That said, I do keep both an AR with several magazines and a 12 Gauge at the front of the safe.
I think for some, whom don't have access to an AR carbine, or better an SBR with a suppressor, a 9mm carbine may have some utility if over-penetration is not a primary consideration in an indoor self-defense scenario.
Which is why my nightstand pistol and HD rifle (11.5" AR) are all suppressed. Outside of a carry pistol, I think any serious firearm should be suppressed.
Shotgun for HD
Least "best" option.
C4
Singlestack Wonder
08-04-15, 09:08
Least "best" option.
C4
+1.............
Least "best" option.
C4
Because of auditory damage?
Because of auditory damage?
No. Because of all the other issues.
C4
Shotgun for HD
1997 called, wants it's outdated HD advice back. :agree:
Has less recoil, so will be easier to get quick second shots.
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Never actually measured it, but my blowback Colt 9mm always seemed like it has MORE recoil, not less, than 5.56.
1997 called, wants it's outdated HD advice back. :agree:
Well shit, guess I'm going to lurk this thread for a new bedside gun... *slowly backs away from thred*:ph34r:
Shotguns are only good if they're full auto, the barrel is <8", and you at least a 30 round drum mag....because who wants to have a body left over....or have walls left...when you're done....and really who cares about the kids sleeping in the next room....
diving dave
08-04-15, 15:03
You'll never get everybody to agree on whats best. Weigh the pros,cons, train....make your decision. I have a nice Vang-comp'd 870 that I used in my squad car for years, with buck or slugs its a hammer ...But I couldnt ever imagine firing that thing indoors in a home defense situation, I'd be deaf for life. I'm going to be running a 300 Black with a can and a good light, as soon as my papers clear.
I have a shotgun with a mounted light for inside the home defense. I have fired thousands of rounds through the shotgun, so I am comfortable with it. The wife has fired it enough that she would choose the shotgun over her pistol if she felt the need to arm herself during a break in.
I would recommend someone who has limited experience with a shotgun choose a carbine in pistol or rifle caliber. I believe the carbine is easier to master than a shotgun, especially for recoil sensitive people. I made the recommendation in post 15, because I have seen autopsy photos for people who were shot with 55g SP .223 ammunition and it appeared to perform well inside human tissue. The shooters indicated incapacitation was rapid.
Well shit, guess I'm going to lurk this thread for a new bedside gun... *slowly backs away from thred*:ph34r:
Shotguns are not the worst option but they are not the best either. A shotgun has low ammo capacity, high recoil, harder to operate, slower to reload, less accurate, less range, most likely wont penetrate soft body armor, and has a greater risk of overpenetration.
That's why the carbine is quickly replacing the shotgun in many police cars across the country.
I wish to say something and hopefully it doesn't detract from the overall topic:
Shotguns should not be so quickly dismissed. It should be accepted that they are a completely seperate style of weapon with a very different manual of arms.
Before we over rely on the AR, we should accept that it does have some limitations. It isn't perfect, but for 80%...maybe 85%..of defense/offense it can and will get the job done.
The shotgun in offense/defense has some glaring setbacks but what it does, it does marvelously.
I think pump actions should be left to the domain of sportsmen and clay shooting. No reason these days not to use an auto loader.
For soft, unarmored subjects numbering in low single digits; shotguns have and can be used to great effect within close quarters.
And....and I'll say it. Forgive me, but I'll say it.
People start losing their urge to fight if they are not trained fighters (most thugs are untrained) and their comrade in arms has suffered dismemberment or decapitation from a shotgun. If even at a minimum traumatic injury.
Mind you we are going from manual of arms and delving, perhaps morbidly so, into opponent psychology.
I will not say that an auto shotgun is ideal, but it shouldn't be dismissed. Proper training and practice is key as it isn't as simple to reload as an AR15.
However, if you have spent a good bit of your impressionable years training on it; it can be hard to dismiss.
At range, unless you have a really good choke, it does become the wrong tool.
However, all else being equal, the 80% solution is best. Though I'd prefer a suppressed SBR.
Pistols, IMHO, are a personal defense weapon. Not Home or Area defense.
Pistols are kind of a status symbol, a toy, or something to give you a chance. Not ideal. Especially not their calibers.
I've rambled a bit. At the end of the day...whatever helps you win.
diving dave
08-04-15, 16:11
I thought only 1911's were status symbols......:lol:
FYI- None of this has been debated or discussed here before.
I would encourage anyone who thinks a shotgun or handgun is better than a SBR for home defense to watch a 3 gun competiton. There is no question which is the most capable firearm any time I watch 3 gun.
I would like to say that I never said a shotgun was better. Only that they shouldn't be dismissed.
Shotguns are, especially now, a niche weapon but they will always have a form of utility.
Be it breaching, deploying less lethal impact rounds, lobbing a big slug of lead, or very close quarter limited engagement.
I wouldn't want to totally discard one tool for another. I think that is the core of 3 gun. Versatility with three weapons.
There have been a lot of advancements in tactics but it pays to retain old workhorses.
I do wish to reiterate that if I knew halfway competent assailants were coming in on me that I'd want an SBR and as many mags as I could reasonably carry. If I were relegated to a shotgun, I could still make a stand.
Irrelevant to whether people would want a pistol caliber carbine. SMGs will overpenetrate and still may not reliably kill whomever.
Really, I'd sooner not defend an area alone. Get flanked or division of attention and it's over.
Or...you may get lucky. No telling. It'll be a mess no matter what you do anymore.
ETA: I don't have much more to offer than rehashing personal predilections and opinions. I don't know how to embed but there's a training video out there...kinda old by now...of a fat guy with a shotgun who rounds a corner on some SWAT staged up on the bravo side of his house. The officer gives him a burst or two with an MP5 and you can literally see the bullets go through him and into the dirt behind him. It's quite telling of why pistol caliber SMGs and rifles may not be ideal for something like this.
Ill admit i havent searched it yet, but has anybody established kind of ammunition was being fired from the smgs when they were the thing to have?
Its been awhile since ive gotten to mess with an mp5, and even then it hasnt been much, but i have a couple others, and they can be kind of finicky about ammo.
The b&t tmp9 feeds nothing but round nose ammo. No flat points, certainly no jhps.
The uzi is a bit better, but not by much. I havent tried a lot in it yet.
The point of this is that if only round nose fmjs can be reliably used in an smg type weapon, there isnt a lot of comparison to just using a handgun, since most halfway decent pistols will run good jhps. The fmjs are going to overpenetrate.
With the ar platform, we can still choose between fmjs and more performance oriented ammo.
I just thought that since the handgun/smg vs shotgun vs ar for hd comes up a lot, and i dont recall ever seeing what ammo was/is used in the smgs, only what is used in handguns, shotguns, and ars, that perhaps an important point may be missed.
For those who prefer a handgun, the smg semiauto carbine might be a good choice provided it would feed reliably with good defensive ammo.
I am not saying any one is best. They all have their pros and cons.
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Ill admit i havent searched it yet, but has anybody established kind of ammunition was being fired from the smgs when they were the thing to have?
The point of this is that if only round nose fmjs can be reliably used in an smg type weapon, there isnt a lot of comparison to just using a handgun, since most halfway decent pistols will run good jhps.
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Our agency issued Colt 9mm SMG's to tactical officers before they were issued M4's. We fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of 115g +P+ HP without any ammunition related issues.
Ok, so the colt smg runs jhps.
Thats a start.
Werent the colt and mp5 the two most popular?
Wonder if the mp5 does.
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That is a good question. I have limited experience with the MP5 and only fired FMJ through them.
Ok, so the colt smg runs jhps.
Thats a start.
Werent the colt and mp5 the two most popular?
Wonder if the mp5 does.
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That is a good question. I have limited experience with the MP5 and only fired FMJ through them.
They do.
Well shit, guess I'm going to lurk this thread for a new bedside gun... *slowly backs away from thred*:ph34r:
I was just being sarcastic jerk, but I think you'll find a properly configured SBR the "bump in the night" gun of choice and rec in most cases with modern choices for ARs and ammo that exist all things being equal which they rarely are. Having said that, what you have trained with the most, are comfortable with, etc, and actually have with you when you need it, are important factors not to be ignored. The old mantra "shotgun is best for HD" is considered highly outdated info however for reasons others briefly outlined.
Example: you trained the last 10 years with a pistol. All your courses were in combative pistol/defensive pistol. You competed almost every weekend in IDPA with a pistol. Reloading it quickly is second nature to you, you can clear it without even thinking about it under stressful conditions, you have some hands on retention skills with it, etc, etc
You have limited experience with the AR. You have one but you put maybe 100rnd a year through it.
Which is the better choice for you under the above scenario for HD and most likely to see you through it?
They do.
Im supposing this means that the mp5 runs with jhps.
So, if the colt and the mp5 run jhps, then the question is whether or not depts using the guns were using jhps in them or not.
If defensive handgun jhps do not normally pass through a person, the next question would be if the added velocity of a subgun length barrel (or rifle length if not an sbr) will cause the same rounds to then pass through a person.
The amount of velocity added would depend on the gun. The b&t tmp 9 only has about a 6" or 6 1/2" barrel, as opposed to an uzi having a 10.5" barrel, or mp5 having about a 9" barrel.
Although personally, my house gun is my edc, unless i am expecting some sort of trouble. Not really because i think it is the absolute best, but because i get more time with it, and i dont have to open the safe every night to get out something else, and then put it back in the morning. I still have a child at home, and our house was broken into only a few years ago. Since it is my edc, it leaves with me when i leave. I simply add a light when i get home. In the safe is an ar and ar pistol, with several mags loaded with hornady tap rounds, and the tmp9, with several loaded mags. However, since the tmp9 only feeds fmjs, its not the first choice.
I have a shotgun, but its just quicker to slap a mag into one of the ars and go.
I do wish there was some round in 9mm that wouldnt overpenetrate in the house, and feed in subgun type weapons. The little tmp9 sbr is quite short and light, very maneuverable, even with the suppressor.
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Per MP5s/Colt SMGs: They will use JHP but for a good while a lot of outfits simply used 124 ball. Personally, I have little use for a SMG.
It truly is a relic at this point.
Something to consider: Your average officer is going to use their sidearm to clear a house unless he knows or has reason to suspect he's getting into something. His handgun will be chambered in one of three popular calibers.
He likely doesn't automatically grab a longarm for a litany of reasons: policy, squad politics, complaints, or sheer complacency.
Let me state this: He is relying on at least 30 odd rounds sum total for his handgun when approaching unknown risk. Be it traffic stop, burglar alarm, etc.
Relevance? Well he's using JHP ammo, he likely hasn't trained well (on average) and his ammo may not guarantee a fatal injury despite having overpenetrative ramifications if he misses. On average his combat will be within 3 yards on average.
What does this mean?
A good portion of people are already using the wrong tool for the wrong job and relying on a defensive weapon in what is technically an offensive action (felony stop, securing dwelling with potentially armed occupants)
So...if you have an AR anything then you're kind of ahead of the curve as is. But...people who by and large don't train to the level they should seem to get by. Not an excuse, merely an observation.
.44 special baby, woohoo!
If a Tango One Romeo Delta is hit with three well placed 9mm rounds, I don't think they will argue the merits of using a rifle caliber carbine.
If a Tango One Romeo Delta is hit with three well placed 9mm rounds, I don't think they will argue the merits of using a rifle caliber carbine.
they will also not worry about whether the the rifle that was used was mil spec
jbourneidentity
08-07-15, 00:05
Never actually measured it, but my blowback Colt 9mm always seemed like it has MORE recoil, not less, than 5.56.
Mine, too! I told that to one of my gun friends and he thought I was insane, but it's absolutely true.
He most certainly will know. A lot of people on the street are on any number of drugs at any time.
I've personally seen a guy stitched up with 5 seemingly solid .380 hits in the thorax walk up say "that blank blank shot me the blanking blank", sit down, smoke a cigarette, and wait for EMS. He was ultimately on meth and hydrocodone (years before they changed the consistency of the pills). The subject survived the wounds and was shot at literally dinner table distance.
Same with subjects going tat for tat with pistols getting hit and driving themselves to the ER or trying to "sleep it off" to have baby momma find them sprawled out on the bed and take them to ghe hospital. They ultimately survived.
I dare say most solid officer induced fatalities were from shotguns, bolt actions, an SMG(albeit accidentally at point blank range with a burst), and one rifle. Anything with a handgun was just sheer volume of fire with more than one officer just pumping .45s or single officer, again right on top, just mag dumping .45 230 +P.
I won't dispute 9mm vs .45 because I am highly biased be it superstition or institutionaled brainwashing. But no....if I could I'd carry something like a Noveske Diplomat or the shortest SR-16 they make or something if I knew shooting was going to be involved.
I was told, and believe it, that your pistol doesn't mean anything. It just gives you a chance. If you get taken by surprise by some wackadoo with a .300 win mag or an AR then you're probably going to die.
I don't want to think things are that bad but it's happened and will likely happen again. That's life. But I dunno.
YMMV
Mine, too! I told that to one of my gun friends and he thought I was insane, but it's absolutely true.
"blowback" is the key term in that effect.
Agree, and the 9mm projectile has 2-3x the mass of the 5.56, and there's all that bolt and buffer mass too. I got an MGI rate reducing buffer years ago for my colt subgun and it's the smoothest I've ever felt in this context.
He most certainly will know. A lot of people on the street are on any number of drugs at any time.
I've personally seen a guy stitched up with 5 seemingly solid .380 hits in the thorax walk up say "that blank blank shot me the blanking blank", sit down, smoke a cigarette, and wait for EMS. He was ultimately on meth and hydrocodone (years before they changed the consistency of the pills). The subject survived the wounds and was shot at literally dinner table distance.
Same with subjects going tat for tat with pistols getting hit and driving themselves to the ER or trying to "sleep it off" to have baby momma find them sprawled out on the bed and take them to ghe hospital. They ultimately survived.
I dare say most solid officer induced fatalities were from shotguns, bolt actions, an SMG(albeit accidentally at point blank range with a burst), and one rifle. Anything with a handgun was just sheer volume of fire with more than one officer just pumping .45s or single officer, again right on top, just mag dumping .45 230 +P.
I won't dispute 9mm vs .45 because I am highly biased be it superstition or institutionaled brainwashing. But no....if I could I'd carry something like a Noveske Diplomat or the shortest SR-16 they make or something if I knew shooting was going to be involved.
I was told, and believe it, that your pistol doesn't mean anything. It just gives you a chance. If you get taken by surprise by some wackadoo with a .300 win mag or an AR then you're probably going to die.
I don't want to think things are that bad but it's happened and will likely happen again. That's life. But I dunno.
YMMV
Yep. We had an officer shoot a guy through the side with a 45. Double lunged the dude. Then they had to chase the guy around the apartment complex and got into a fist sight with him to handcuff him. They then walked him to the ambulance. He coded once or twice but ended up surviving. I cant think of a single time we've had an officer shoot a badguy with a rifle and the guy runs off. They are always laying right where they were shot.
On the other hand. My department recently started allowing 9mm again. Most of the guys who have started carrying it are the more tactically sound gun types. We've had I believe 3 shooting with 9mm and all have been immediate stoppers and fatal. Though like I said the shooters have been gun guy types and their hits/accuracy has been well above par.
C-grunt, are you at liberty to say or do you know how many times the 9mm fatalities were hit?
I'm sure you, as are we all, trained to keep shooting until the threat stops. Most current 9mm options(especially Glock) give you quite a few rounds to play with.
Several COM within average range would definitely put someone down.
Most. 45 options limit you to 10 rounds. Less if you download.
Fat people and dopers tend to go down the hardest even with "good hits".
If I had it to do over, I'd probably get on the 9mm bandwagon as it is fairly accurate and not even a bad PPC round.
I recall seeing a homeboy taken out with a rifle. He just totally shut down. Like gacked at 30 yards with an M16A1. He didn't expect that.
No complaints.
But chasing a shot up bloody crack head...yeah BTDT. It's disgusting and they live to stand trial, get on suspended sentence, blah blah blah.
And they'll live forever whereas normal folks die at 62 and leave loved ones behind. But that's another topic I probably don't need to discuss on M4C
C-grunt, are you at liberty to say or do you know how many times the 9mm fatalities were hit?
I'm sure you, as are we all, trained to keep shooting until the threat stops. Most current 9mm options(especially Glock) give you quite a few rounds to play with.
Several COM within average range would definitely put someone down.
Most. 45 options limit you to 10 rounds. Less if you download.
Fat people and dopers tend to go down the hardest even with "good hits".
If I had it to do over, I'd probably get on the 9mm bandwagon as it is fairly accurate and not even a bad PPC round.
I recall seeing a homeboy taken out with a rifle. He just totally shut down. Like gacked at 30 yards with an M16A1. He didn't expect that.
No complaints.
But chasing a shot up bloody crack head...yeah BTDT. It's disgusting and they live to stand trial, get on suspended sentence, blah blah blah.
And they'll live forever whereas normal folks die at 62 and leave loved ones behind. But that's another topic I probably don't need to discuss on M4C
One was hit like 10 times. I want to say 8 9mms and 2 .40s. However all shots were through a windshield or car door. Last one was one to the chest and two to the head at very close range. Both of those guys were incapacitated immediately. Im like 90 percent sure there was a third shooting but I cant think of it right now.
C-grunt, are you at liberty to say or do you know how many times the 9mm fatalities were hit?
I'm sure you, as are we all, trained to keep shooting until the threat stops. Most current 9mm options(especially Glock) give you quite a few rounds to play with.
Several COM within average range would definitely put someone down.
Most. 45 options limit you to 10 rounds. Less if you download.
Fat people and dopers tend to go down the hardest even with "good hits".
If I had it to do over, I'd probably get on the 9mm bandwagon as it is fairly accurate and not even a bad PPC round.
I recall seeing a homeboy taken out with a rifle. He just totally shut down. Like gacked at 30 yards with an M16A1. He didn't expect that.
No complaints.
But chasing a shot up bloody crack head...yeah BTDT. It's disgusting and they live to stand trial, get on suspended sentence, blah blah blah.
And they'll live forever whereas normal folks die at 62 and leave loved ones behind. But that's another topic I probably don't need to discuss on M4C
The lesson here is, all loads in typical duty loads are poor man stoppers. There's no lack of real world encounters of someone taking double digit quantities of (any duty load you want fill in here) and still fighting, until someone with a long gun shows up and puts the goblin down. Never bring a handgun to a gunfight if you have a choice in the matter seems to be a true mantra.
C-grunt, thanks for answering my questions.
Figured there was more to it than the mythical "one shot stop".
Whomever did the reverse Mozambique drill is a Jedi or real lucky. Either way, glad he made it. Hope nobody with rank messes him over.
All the best.
Will, I totally agree but I recall when you had to do a report just to deploy a rifle. Not fire a shot. Just take it out the trunk. Shotgun had a little more leeway. I understand sorta not wanting to get crazy with it but it kind of housebreaks people.
Me, if I were in that big fight for my life, I want a reliable carbine fully gassed up with good ammo. I'd almost say .308 because I enjoy them on my personal time but SP or silvertip 5.56 will definitely get stuff done.
I would rather, Of course, No one but me in a pickle but yeah...I get to live my little life such as it is.
I do appreciate your sharing your observations.
I, for one, have never believed in the one shot stop, so that part wasnt an issue. Shoot them to the ground.
I am not on duty, and therefore not limited in my weapon or ammo choice. I have not fired an ar indoors, but i have fired one from inside a vehicle, as well as fired shotguns, handguns, and a short fal with a brake inside a vehicle, so i do know what it feels like to willingly overpressure yourself.
I will admit i do find it hard to believe that an ar wont overpenetrate a wall while a handgun will. Yes, i already knew a handgun will, and so will a shotgun. It really seems to be a bad catch 22. You need power to dispatch the badguy, but missing will kill the family member in the next room. Once you cannot kill the family member in the next room, you no longer have what you need to dispatch the badguy.
In my instance, the house is tight, with lots of turns. A long gun of any type is at a serious disadvantage of being announced, except the smg sbr. Or just use a handgun. Perhaps a witsec type shotgun. Even the ar pistol is the same length as an ar sbr. You could go down to 7", but the gun gets more finicky, and its like setting a grenade off next to your ears every time it goes off. The suppressor takes away the shortness, youre back to square one, albeit quieter.
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ETA: I don't have much more to offer than rehashing personal predilections and opinions. I don't know how to embed but there's a training video out there...kinda old by now...of a fat guy with a shotgun who rounds a corner on some SWAT staged up on the bravo side of his house. The officer gives him a burst or two with an MP5 and you can literally see the bullets go through him and into the dirt behind him. It's quite telling of why pistol caliber SMGs and rifles may not be ideal for something like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVOjizieq2w
"two with an MP5 and you can literally see the bullets go through him and into the dirt behind him"
I can't tell from that vid what the LEO was using. Always thought it was an SBR AR of some sort.
I had always heard they were MP5s.
The video is a bit hazy, but are those shots in the ground misses? At the range that the engagement appears to be, rounds that impact center mass should have penetrated farther down range.
My guess? The officer zippered the guy, and the first rounds either missed low or passed through low mass areas like his legs. Watching the officer, it looks like he starts shooting low and raises up. The guy's shorts also look like they're moving when the shooting starts. This used to be a popular technique, as well as an unintended phenomenon when shooters are faced with a sudden threat while in the low ready position. I've seen this with fairly well trained shooters who are put on a very tight par time or in FoF. I wouldn't use this video as a case study for weapon/round selection. Too many variables and unanswered questions.
Personally, I like my SBR for HD, but it's actually second to my handgun. I can manipulate my handgun better in close quarters, and I can use it more efficiently one handed than a rifle, which can free up my other arm/hand to work doors, fight, usher my children/wife/elderly mother, or use the phone. While I completely understand that the .223 has superior terminal ballistics and the AR platform has a higher capacity, for my home situation and the local crime trends, I am comfortable with a handgun for the in-house role.
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