View Full Version : What companies get their chf barrels from FN? And who else makes chf barrels?
Arose from a discussion about various companies
I would like to reply with specifics, but I shouldn't. CHF barrels can vary wildly between the specifications required. I do believe a good CL CHF barrel suits certain end users well. Others may be suited better with other methods of rifling.
FN - Ruger - DD are the companies I am aware of the use CHF in the US. There may be others I am unaware of and I'm sure if there are, others will chime in with their names.
that's what I've heard, and had thought all other companies get theirs pretty much from FN
Yes, and there's more than those.
PSA, Noveske, Centurion and BCM BFH hammer forged barrels come from FN to the individual company's specifications.
Sig is entering the CHF manufacturing too.
To their specs is interesting. Noveske touts double CL THICKNESS. I always liked that concept. How much are they finished when Noveske , BCM gets their barrels? Do they do another 10% of the work, 0%, etc? Do they do anything to change accuracy?
To their specs is interesting. Noveske touts double CL THICKNESS. I always liked that concept.
So does PSA. It's right out of the FN ad copy.
To their specs is interesting. Noveske touts double CL THICKNESS. I always liked that concept. How much are they finished when Noveske , BCM gets their barrels? Do they do another 10% of the work, 0%, etc? Do they do anything to change accuracy?
Do you have any experience with the accuracy of a 2x chrome lined barrel? I know chrome lining has a small affect on accuracy, as it somewhat dulls the lands and groves when applied. I'm thinking 2x might double that affect and perhaps be enough for more people to notice? I know you do a lot of LD shooting.
I would like to reply with specifics, but I shouldn't. CHF barrels can vary wildly between the specifications required
Not really. CHF barrels are pounded around a mandrel and mandrels are expensive. That means if a company wants a different bore, they have to pay to have a different mandrel made. They can increase their profits by simply using the same mandrel a everyone else.
Companies could specify different dimensions for the chamber, but some chambers are formed by the mandrel during the forging process. Others by a chamber reamer. It would be cheaper to specify a standard chamber and use the same tooling.
Contours can be more easily changed. But again, a different contour requires a different set-up which take time. A company is going to have to pay for the labor of writing a different program for different contours.
The same is true with material type. A company isn;t going to save money by specifying 4140 or 4130 steel when FN is getting a discount on the tons of 4150 CMV it purchases. Companies will also have to pay more when FN has to stop a run of 4150 CMV barrels to turn out a few in 4140.
So yes, FN will build barrels to each company's specs but the company will have to pay more for less.
So, where i the biggest difference going to be in CHF barrels? Port size and crown. The rest is going to be pretty much the same across the board no matter what company orders FN CHF barrels
And none of them offer an actual hammer forged chamber?
And none of them offer an actual hammer forged chamber?
Copied from the DD site. "During the hammering process, a mandrel is inserted into the bore while the carbide steel hammers shape the barrel around the mandrel creating the chamber, the lands, and the grooves"
Eurodriver
08-08-15, 07:20
Why does this matter?
Real talk.
Why does this matter?
Real talk.
I think only to make informed buying decisions. JG and I were talking barrels and the conversation came up " does it really matter what CHF barrel you buy ? " I said I like DD, NOVESKE , COLT but does it really matter.......
I've learned a few things from this thread.
In an ideal world, mandrels would last forever. A slightly blemished mandrel may not make the cut from one manufacturer, but may in others, depending on what the blemish is. Some contours seem questionable, most are alright. Gas ports can vary by a wide margin. Spec's on the crown can vary. Spec's on the finish quality can vary. Etc.
Many variables are possible, from what started out very similar in the begining to what the end product ends up being.
In an ideal world, mandrels would last forever. A slightly blemished mandrel may not make the cut from one manufacturer, but may in others, depending on what the blemish is. Some contours seem questionable, most are alright. Gas ports can vary by a wide margin. Spec's on the crown can vary. Spec's on the finish quality can vary. Etc.
Many variables are possible, from what started out very similar in the begining to what the end product ends up being.
Hence one mfg would reject a barrel and another would push it through. And now the rubber meets the road at Noveske and BCM ......so it does matter IMO. Very good thread.
Do you have any experience with the accuracy of a 2x chrome lined barrel? I know chrome lining has a small affect on accuracy, as it somewhat dulls the lands and groves when applied. I'm thinking 2x might double that affect and perhaps be enough for more people to notice? I know you do a lot of LD shooting.
I really only ran my Noveske with an ACOG and shot MOA, which is the best I can do with a chevron reticle. No good data.
PB
So, question is... is the pricier vs cheaper relabeled FN barrel a different grade?
And where do all the ruger chf barrels go?
So, question is... is the pricier vs cheaper relabeled FN barrel a different grade?
And where do all the ruger chf barrels go?
Sometimes, but not always by far can the more expensive barrel be of a tighter specification. That does not resolve the other possible issues that may come up like gas porting, proper contour, etc.
XD40Colorado
08-08-15, 17:32
Spike's and PSA for sure. Speculation that BCM gets them from FN as well.
Daniel Defense makes their own CHF in house.
And now the rubber meets the road at Noveske and BCM ......
https://app.box.com/shared/static/zy0a61s0qrl0aui5rtk1bfctrg4fqg05.jpg
....
XD40Colorado
08-08-15, 17:43
Image didn't load Molon - care to repost?
Thanks Molon for the posting. Precision is a part of barrel analysis that can include other factors. The information is not out of line from other sources on lower round count barrels. Higher round counts can see some changes, but most would generally agree with your results.
https://app.box.com/shared/static/zy0a61s0qrl0aui5rtk1bfctrg4fqg05.jpg
....
Leave it to Molon to throw a heavy dose of icing on the cake. I love that selection. You wrote noveske light 14.5. I have the noveske 14.5 "Afghan" , what profile is that considered ?
Those are all CHF, while the Afghan is SS with the same profile as light I think.
ETA - I was only half right.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Spike's and PSA for sure. Speculation that BCM gets them from FN as well.
Daniel Defense makes their own CHF in house.
Since when did Spikes switch to FN from Lothar-Walther?
Spikes had DD and then switched to FN. They had Lothar as an option for a while.
I have the noveske 14.5 "Afghan" , what profile is that considered?
The Noveske Afghan is a medium-contour barrel. It's the same contour that is found on the 16" Noveske Recon barrel and 18" Noveske SPR barrel.
Noveske Recon barrel
https://app.box.com/shared/static/3jwwadmqq8sf16aia32byx3y49dujnhn.jpg
Noveske SPR barrel
https://app.box.com/shared/static/w6ryaniwlaxl65xdym2ud4e2jqpm5871.jpg
Noveske N4 "Light" barrel
https://app.box.com/shared/static/mmtv78t6idf06vt21qpokip2o0rwpbnz.jpg
Noveske "Skinny" barrel
https://app.box.com/shared/static/w3os5lxh6oakyawvz3dpv364u3sg3jgv.jpg
....
FN builds barrels to spec. Not all barrels that come from FN are chrome-lined the same way, or made of the same steel. Barrel profile and gas port goes without saying.
Colt Canada (Diemaco) has a Hammer Forge. I have seen a KAC employee post that this is where KAC forged barrels come from.
I have never seen any one state where BCM barrels are forged, I would love to know, and I would also like to know why it is such closely guarded information.
LWRCi barrels are from Rugers hammer forge.
I would like to reply with specifics, but I shouldn't.
I would love to know those specifics, but thats your choice. However would you be willing to share why you don't want to give out that information? I find it interesting that for some companies there is so much secrecy around who forges their barrels and others companies are very very forthcoming with the info.
FN builds barrels to spec. Not all barrels that come from FN are chrome-lined the same way, or made of the same steel. Barrel profile and gas port goes without saying.
Can you point to an FN CHF barrel that isn't either "machinegun steel" or stainless steel? Can you point to one with an uncommon profile?
Are any of those barrels posted by Molon 2X chrome lined? If so that pretty much answers my question above.....
"I would also like to know why it is such closely guarded information"
Would you spend 60K for a Lexus if they advertised that it came off of the same assembly line as a Toyota?
"I would also like to know why it is such closely guarded information"
Would you spend 60K for a Lexus if they advertised that it came off of the same assembly line as a Toyota?
I would, I mean isn't that whats so great about a Lexus? Luxury, but with toyota know how and reliability. Now if it came off of a KIA line I'd turn away from the purchase.
Thats the thing about the FN manufacturing, some companies advertise this, which I think is makes sense, I would too. I know FN makes a great barrel, so when I see that advertised I am inclined to buy that barrel. There are variables like gas port size and requested QC to keep in mind.
To me unless you are hiding something negative whats to lose by disclosing this information? Is BCM hiding something?
There are variables like gas port size and requested QC to keep in mind
You do realize that a change in Quality Control is a change in the production process which adds to production costs which means changing to a lower quality process costs more not less.
It may be that a company buying barrels from FN have lower Quality Assurance standards than other companies. It could be that a company is willing to buy a barrel that FN would consider a blem or is a reject. But you can bet FN had good QC processes in place to eliminate rejects because rejected parts add to production costs and reduce profits. It just doesn't make sense that a vendor would ask for a change in specs that will reduce the performance of the product when those changes will add to production costs
You do realize that a change in Quality Control is a change in the production process which adds to production costs which means changing to a lower quality process costs more not less.
No, I disagree with you. I do not mean change in manufacturing process, which is what you are saying. I mean eliminating testing and inspection procedures and lowering the threshold for letting finish blemishes through.
Which comes full circle to my point of saying who makes your barrel unless you are ashamed of who it is. Regardless of spec a good company is not going to make a crap barrel. Regardless of spec a crap company will struggle to make a good barrel.
But honestly none of the forging companies are bad. FN seems to be the best, so maybe if you don't use FN you would still try to conceal that, but still to me I see it as silly.
Car companies subcontract much of a car, all those parts are stamped with that sub contractors name. Bosch for instance, or continental, are big names in the VW group. The car companies name may be on it too, but they don't hide the manufacturers name. So why do some, but not most, conceal it? Some don't advertise it, but BCM has done a good job of all together concealing it.
There could be many reasons for the secrecy and it likely varies by company.
- There "could" be an NDA as part of the contract to MFG. Court isn't where you want to spend your profits.
- In the case of BCM, "IF" they source their barrels from Colt Canada, what do you think that does to their "Bravo Company USA" branding? - Not saying this is the case, but if it were my company I wouldn't let that information leak out. Heck, it would even be a stretch for them to use FN and maintain their USA branding from a consumer and marketing perspective.
- Both or any of the above reasons are quite valid and you should either accept it and move on or shop elsewhere.
To be 100% crystal clear: I have no knowledge of, nor do I care, where BCM sources its barrels from, this is purely a speculative example as to why a company might withhold this kind of information.
As to auto's....Lexus is nothing more than a re-badged Toyota. It is a brand name and most of the components, that matter, are identical and 2x the cost. Again, branding and marketing.
There is a difference between the barrel manufacturer's quality control and the buyer's (BCM, PSA, Centurion, Noveske) rejection rate.
THIS IS PURLY AN EXAMPLE NOT FACT:
BCM orders 1000 BFH barrels from FN.
BCM rejects 400 of them for whatever reason BCM has to reject them.
FN in turn calls PSA and says "Hey PSA, we have 400 barrels here that you guys can have for a discounted price."
PSA says "Send those sombitches!" and has a huge sale.
FN engraves PSA on the BCM rejected barrels and ships them out.
It doesn't really happen like that. I don't think that most manufacturers are worried about their own specifications, they worry about others spec's from the same source. Naming the source implies to some level the same part, when it really doesn't. It may also not be beneficial if a manufacturer finds an improved source with the implication of it being sourced elsewhere. Being married to another company in the component level, real or implied carries both benefits and negatives. It seems wise for most to error on the side of caution.
I would love to know those specifics, but thats your choice. However would you be willing to share why you don't want to give out that information? I find it interesting that for some companies there is so much secrecy around who forges their barrels and others companies are very very forthcoming with the info.
It's not my choice, it is the manufacturers choice, if they do so. It's not my place to say, or imply to do so.
Can you point to an FN CHF barrel that isn't either "machinegun steel" or stainless steel? Can you point to one with an uncommon profile?
As much as I would like to point some things out, It would be smart to remember that manufacturers can and do secondary operations on many components. They can be great or questionable depending on many things. It's not always a simple answer.
It's not my choice, it is the manufacturers choice, if they do so. It's not my place to say, or imply to do so.
Then why mention you have insider knowledge in the first place? It irks me when people that... Like hey, look at me. But then not say anything.
No disrespect intended with that comment... It's just one of things.
As much as I would like to point some things out, It would be smart to remember that manufacturers can and do secondary operations on many components. They can be great or questionable depending on many things. It's not always a simple answer.
I would imagine they can be meaningful or meaningless as well.
Then why mention you have insider knowledge in the first place? It irks me when people that... Like hey, look at me. But then not say anything.
No disrespect intended with that comment... It's just one of things.
I intended to post something that I was quickly advised not to, so it was kept as that.
No, I disagree with you. I do not mean change in manufacturing process, which is what you are saying. I mean eliminating testing and inspection procedures and lowering the threshold for letting finish blemishes through
What you are talking about here is Quality Assurance, not Quality Control. There is an important difference. Quality Control is determined by the manufacturing processes. Inspections can only assure those processes were followed
What you are talking about here is Quality Assurance, not Quality Control. There is an important difference.
And you learn something new everyday, quality assurance is a term I have never heard before. I stand corrected.
It took taking a class and participating in the Self Directed Work Group program at McDonnel-Douglas to to teach me the difference. It helped me become more effective in my career field
fallenromeo
08-11-15, 16:42
Who does the CHF barrels for Rainier arms? Are they from FN as well?
Who would say that a company purchases CHF barrels from one source or has the option of purchasing them from multiple sources? Without a statement from that manufacturer, how many outside of them would know? The real question is how can the product offered by the manufacturer differ between different vendors in end users requirements?
If it does what is required to do, does the name of a vendor make a difference in the end?
It can be very involving, but going with a vendor blindly can lead to negative results. Testing of potential candidates may broaden the market of prospective vendors, or it may reduce it depending on some things.
Flankenstein
08-11-15, 17:21
To me unless you are hiding something negative whats to lose by disclosing this information? Is BCM hiding something?
Doubtful, not really their MO.
The answer (if we got one) would be something along the lines of disclosure, contractual agreements, blah, blah, blah...
ZipZopBoop
08-11-15, 21:30
Doubtful, not really their MO.
The answer (if we got one) would be something along the lines of disclosure, contractual agreements, blah, blah, blah...
That seems to me to be the most probable explanation. It's always a weird business situation to be a company (FN) that produces both end-user products as well as components for various other companies. For other industries, there's usually enough information that you can figure out the relationships, like Apple products being made by the same manufacturer as ASUS, etc., but the firearms industry is a bit more opaque.
Who does the CHF barrels for Rainier arms? Are they from FN as well?
yes.....
That seems to me to be the most probable explanation. It's always a weird business situation to be a company (FN) that produces both end-user products as well as components for various other companies. For other industries, there's usually enough information that you can figure out the relationships, like Apple products being made by the same manufacturer as ASUS, etc., but the firearms industry is a bit more opaque.
try finding out what the same FN barrels from different vendors are ported at......
All cold hammer forging machines for rifle barrels (at least, modern ones used in the western hemisphere and allies) come from the same austrian maker, but not all CHF barrels are of the same quality.
Also, one has to remember that not all barrels from the same maker, steel,profile, thecnincal specs and batch end up being equally accurate when mounted on the different rifles. What you see are examples of one, perhaps two, that may be indicative of the general trend.
I don't know that it really even matters. I used to be pretty sure that the 'best' really had better barrels, but shooting has told me otherwise. NO chrome lined barrel has performed like my Colt SOCOM barrels did, and I'm beginning to believe my newest stainless barrels aren't doing any better.
Between me and a few close shooting friends, we've had BCM, Noveske, Spikes, and PSA hammer forged barrels.
I, nor anyone else, could tell a nickels worth of difference between any of 'em.
I've had two BCM CHF barrels that started out super impressive accuracy-wise, but settled in to be fairly mediocre shooters over the first 1K rounds and stayed the same for the next few thousand I put through 'em.
It was explained to me, years ago, that the benefit of CHF over a Std. barrel was in the heat tolerance. Increased accuracy was due to tapered mandrels.
Thinner barrels of similar steel have a higher rupture threshold when compairing CHF vs Std. manufacture.
Colt had done testing of CHF vs Std. manufactured barrels and found no benefit.
H&K uses CHF barrels and states they are superior.
.....and the truth is.......??
//.....and the truth is.......??
Whatever Colt does is working!
I don't know that it really even matters. I used to be pretty sure that the 'best' really had better barrels, but shooting has told me otherwise. NO chrome lined barrel has performed like my Colt SOCOM barrels did, and I'm beginning to believe my newest stainless barrels aren't doing any better.
Between me and a few close shooting friends, we've had BCM, Noveske, Spikes, and PSA hammer forged barrels.
I, nor anyone else, could tell a nickels worth of difference between any of 'em.
I've had two BCM CHF barrels that started out super impressive accuracy-wise, but settled in to be fairly mediocre shooters over the first 1K rounds and stayed the same for the next few thousand I put through 'em.
No discernable and empirical difference between a Noveske barrel and PSA? That's not what I have seen, especially out to 4-500 yards with competent glass and ammo. I've seen some pretty impressive results from DD, BCM, Noveske etc......and yes, I could see the difference.
Can you point to an FN CHF barrel that isn't either "machinegun steel" or stainless steel? Can you point to one with an uncommon profile?
Yes, I could. But would it matter?
FN has barrels out there of so many variations it would make your head spin. Some manufacturers openly advertise, some don't. Far be it from me.
I would, I mean isn't that whats so great about a Lexus? Luxury, but with toyota know how and reliability. Now if it came off of a KIA line I'd turn away from the purchase.
Thats the thing about the FN manufacturing, some companies advertise this, which I think is makes sense, I would too. I know FN makes a great barrel, so when I see that advertised I am inclined to buy that barrel. There are variables like gas port size and requested QC to keep in mind.
To me unless you are hiding something negative whats to lose by disclosing this information? Is BCM hiding something?
BCM is a parts assembler that does its best to be regarded as a "manufacturer". They have ALWAYS hidden their sources, to that end.
No discernable and empirical difference between a Noveske barrel and PSA? That's not what I have seen, especially out to 4-500 yards with competent glass and ammo. I've seen some pretty impressive results from DD, BCM, Noveske etc......and yes, I could see the difference.
Chrome lined or stainless? I owned nothing but chrome lined barrels until this year and the Noveske and BCM ones I owned did not perform as well as my Colts, and did not perform any better or worse than others' Spikes and PSA chrome lined barrels. This is several years and shooters worth of observation.
The only gun related thing I regret selling is my Colt SOCOM barrels.
And you know this exactly how?
BCM is a parts assembler that does its best to be regarded as a "manufacturer". They have ALWAYS hidden their sources, to that end.
Chrome lined or stainless? I owned nothing but chrome lined barrels until this year and the Noveske and BCM ones I owned did not perform as well as my Colts, and did not perform any better or worse than others' Spikes and PSA chrome lined barrels. This is several years and shooters worth of observation.
The only gun related thing I regret selling is my Colt SOCOM barrels.
Both......although my sample size isn't the greatest. Just going by what I have seen at the range off and on.
Yes, I could. But would it matter?
Keeping in mind I'm talking about CHF AR barrels, it would to me. It would give me more data to contemplate
And you know this exactly how?
What does BCM make?
I asked a simple question. How do you know what they are any other company for that matter makes or doesn't?
What does BCM make?
I asked a simple question. How do you know what they are any other company for that matter makes or doesn't?
I don't know everything they do or don't make, I just know that it isn't their uppers, lowers, barrels, LPK's, or BCG's. Those are all assembled by them.
So how do you know BCM doesn't make their uppers and lowers? Guess how many companies out there actually don't make much of anything or part of something? That would include Colt, Noveske and many others.
I don't know everything they do or don't make, I just know that it isn't their uppers, lowers, barrels, LPK's, or BCG's. Those are all assembled by them.
So how do you know BCM doesn't make their uppers and lowers? Guess how many companies out there actually don't make much of anything or part of something? That would include Colt, Noveske and many others.
I know they don't because they said they don't. I never said this was a bad thing, either. As to Noveske though, they are starting to cut metal in house for some things.
In an ideal world, mandrels would last forever. A slightly blemished mandrel may not make the cut from one manufacturer, but may in others, depending on what the blemish is. Some contours seem questionable, most are alright. Gas ports can vary by a wide margin. Spec's on the crown can vary. Spec's on the finish quality can vary. Etc.
Many variables are possible, from what started out very similar in the begining to what the end product ends up being.
Could be a source of some of those blems "I looked all over and can't find".
Probably would never affect the guy assembling his "precision" AR, but more disclosure on those bargain blems would be nice.
PatrioticDisorder
08-13-15, 06:46
I know they don't because they said they don't. I never said this was a bad thing, either. As to Noveske though, they are starting to cut metal in house for some things.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?146873-First-Look-at-BCM-s-NEW-M4-Upper-Receiver
BCM isn't getting their uppers from where other companies are, I wouldn't be surprised if they bought out or absorbed the machine shop referred to in this post by Grant since they've grown so much. Who knows what else they are manufacturing on their own now.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?146873-First-Look-at-BCM-s-NEW-M4-Upper-Receiver
BCM isn't getting their uppers from where other companies are, I wouldn't be surprised if they bought out or absorbed the machine shop referred to in this post by Grant since they've grown so much. Who knows what else they are manufacturing on their own now.
Maybe, if so, that's good. More in-house the better, so long as you don't sacrifice quality. That's the issue, really. To compete with companies like MEGA, it's almost impossible without re-inventing the wheel. That's why I said there isn't anything WRONG with out-sourcing. An FN barrel from Spikes is as good as an FN barrel from FN, workmanship-wise, for example.
I don't know everything they do or don't make, I just know that it isn't their uppers, lowers, barrels, LPK's, or BCG's. Those are all assembled by them.
BCM like so many other companies, doesn't manufacture most of their things but what they do well is choose quality parts and assemble them with quality engineering and QC. I personally don't care, as long as shit runs and is backed up by the company that takes my money.....I'm GTG.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?146873-First-Look-at-BCM-s-NEW-M4-Upper-Receiver
BCM isn't getting their uppers from where other companies are, I wouldn't be surprised if they bought out or absorbed the machine shop referred to in this post by Grant since they've grown so much. Who knows what else they are manufacturing on their own now.
Does this mean they are billet like noveske started doing with (in house) gen 3?
(keeping in mind that I have
far less knowledge than some here)
I've been under the impression that the choice is usually a relabeled forged receiver (similar to barrels) or an in house cnc billet.
That's part of why the noveske gen 2 (forged lower) and forged mur upper stood out to me, best of both worlds?
Speaking of MEGA, it seems odd that for a good sized company making a lot of things, not much is said about them at all.....
They are never mentioned in the bashing /'don't buy this ' lists, and never mentioned in the traditional gtg' buy this ' (BCM, colt, Daniel defense, Noveske, etc)
Radio silence..... Only one I've seen is a swat/range armorer guy that did one as his' ultimate duty sbr '
Does this mean they are billet like noveske started doing with (in house) gen 3?
(keeping in mind that I have
far less knowledge than some here)
I've been under the impression that the choice is usually a relabeled forged receiver (similar to barrels) or an in house cnc billet.
That's part of why the noveske gen 2 (forged lower) and forged mur upper stood out to me, best of both worlds?
The forge mark, the 'A' on the right side on the BCM4 upper in that thread is pretty common. The way I interpreted it is, they're probably getting forged blanks from the same place as before, but they found someone to machine them to their own specs (and tolerances) rather than some generic 'OEM' specs.
how much machining happens after the lower is forged?
Pretty much all of it if you exclude rough grinding after the breaks in the parting lines.
Fascinating pictorial on how they are finished
http://firearmsdesigner.com/?p=488
*but still doesn't explain how the noveske gen 2 is flared magwell
Speaking of MEGA, it seems odd that for a good sized company making a lot of things, not much is said about them at all.....
They are never mentioned in the bashing /'don't buy this ' lists, and never mentioned in the traditional gtg' buy this ' (BCM, colt, Daniel defense, Noveske, etc)
Radio silence..... Only one I've seen is a swat/range armorer guy that did one as his' ultimate duty sbr '
Mention of Mega is interesting in this thread as they are much like FN, but for receivers. They make receivers for Rainier arms ad others, The Hodge Defense rifles; built to be the best of the best have Mega produced receivers and rail.
Aero Precision is another company making lots of receivers for others, again very high quality.
I think because Mega does not sell complete rifles you don't hear much, but guns built on their receiver sets are considered very good.
In all reality, a great rifle manufacturer doesn't need to make anything in house. They could farm out every component and contract everything out, including assembly. As long as good QC/QA is used by the base contractor all the way to the end manufacturer that meets the requirements. It may be more of a short term or long term profit solution and the "best" business model at the time depending on many things. In an ideal world, with a constantly fixed number of orders over many years, it may make sense to make everything in house. In a dynamic world with constant changes, it may make sense to contract out portions of the operation to provide end products at a competitive price and profit.
To add to this. If I was in R&D and spec'ed a sole source contractor or the only potential in house, I would be sweating. Eliminating competition to a single source leaves you married to that product, for better or worse. Having the options to have bids put in to fulfill the contract that meets the spec drives competition. That competition keeps cost and profits in check. With a sole source, the product is up to them and not the end manufacturer. That is not a position I would want to be in. If anyone thinks that FN is the only game in town for similar barrels, they are mistaken.
The unfortunate reality is that we are using the AR type system in ways that it was not really ever intended to be so for the majority. The other part of this unfortunate reality is that nobody is willing to put out a product that solves many of the issues. The regular receivers are still considered the baseline product. Nobody at this time is willing to produce a next generation product that functions basically the same way, but addresses the core issues in how the system is currently used. When a manufacturer sees a possible solution, they shoot it down as a system as a whole, mostly due to incompatibility and increased size. Right now, the business model tends to lean toward "band aid" fixes, instead of addressing the system as a whole.
To add to this. If I was in R&D and spec'ed a sole source contractor or the only potential in house, I would be sweating. Eliminating competition to a single source leaves you married to that product, for better or worse. Having the options to have bids put in to fulfill the contract that meets the spec drives competition. That competition keeps cost and profits in check. With a sole source, the product is up to them and not the end manufacturer. That is not a position I would want to be in. If anyone thinks that FN is the only game in town for similar barrels, they are mistaken.
The unfortunate reality is that we are using the AR type system in ways that it was not really ever intended to be so for the majority. The other part of this unfortunate reality is that nobody is willing to put out a product that solves many of the issues. The regular receivers are still considered the baseline product. Nobody at this time is willing to produce a next generation product that functions basically the same way, but addresses the core issues in how the system is currently used. When a manufacturer sees a possible solution, they shoot it down as a system as a whole, mostly due to incompatibility and increased size. Right now, the business model tends to lean toward "band aid" fixes, instead of addressing the system as a whole.
Can you expand on this, some, if you will?
Inside FNM’s South Carolina Barrel Shop. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/08/foghorn/a-look-inside-fnms-south-carolina-barrel-shop/
Can you expand on this, some, if you will?
What part? I kind've went into a few directions.
What part? I kind've went into a few directions.
I'd be interested in you expanding on:
"The unfortunate reality is that we are using the AR type system in ways that it was not really ever intended to be so for the majority. The other part of this unfortunate reality is that nobody is willing to put out a product that solves many of the issues."
How is it being used vs. intended, what would the product need to solve those issues?
Thank you
Making the rifle platform components run in a shorter carbine has raised more than a few eyebrows. It is nothing new at all, it was old news 25 years ago. A compromise is used with the rifle components in a carbine package. The original design intent wasn't to make carbines, or high precision rifles on todays levels. We use what we use now as that is what we have available. Correcting some of the issues requires alterations to the base receivers, as they cannot accommodate the components to play as well in short carbines to full size rifles to precision roles, etc. The problem is, is that no manufacturer is going to produce this at this time. They consider other band aids to reduce issues. In a flooded market, a unique but incompatible offering is a bad business move, even if it shows superior operation. The same was true before the market was overfilled. It won't happen until the market demands it. At this point, it would look like a $5500 rifle, when it's demanded in volume, it's the next 6920.
Other than FN barrels, isn't the only alternative Daniel Defense?
PatrioticDisorder
08-16-15, 19:25
Other than FN barrels, isn't the only alternative Daniel Defense?
I'm pretty sure Colt Canada and KAC have the ability to cold hammer forge their own barrels of that is what you are asking about, CHF barrels correct?
Other than FN barrels, isn't the only alternative Daniel Defense?
Helps if you read the thread.
Helps if you read the thread.
Yeah, FN and Daniel Defense, did you read the thread?
I'm pretty sure Colt Canada and KAC have the ability to cold hammer forge their own barrels of that is what you are asking about, CHF barrels correct?
That's what I'm asking, but you can't buy colt Canada and kac is also FN
As to Noveske though, they are starting to cut metal in house for some things.
Which parts are you referring to?
FN - Ruger - DD are the companies I am aware of the use CHF in the US. There may be others I am unaware of and I'm sure if there are, others will chime in with their names.
Colt Canada (Diemaco) has a Hammer Forge. I have seen a KAC employee post that this is where KAC forged barrels come from.
I have never seen any one state where BCM barrels are forged, I would love to know, and I would also like to know why it is such closely guarded information.
LWRCi barrels are from Rugers hammer forge.
Yeah, FN and Daniel Defense, did you read the thread?
When he asked if you read the thread I think he meant did you read more than the first page.
FN USA
Ruger
Colt Canada
Daniel defense
Also
Arsenal Bulgaria and Styer Austria.
Maybe FN in Belgium?
Remington also uses CHF barrels for some of their line. They have their own machines, and all the above (and maaany more) all use machines made in Steyr, Austria by GFM.
PatrioticDisorder
08-20-15, 11:04
That's what I'm asking, but you can't buy colt Canada and kac is also FN
No this is incorrect, KAC was receiving CHF barrel blanks from Colt Canada up until early last year but I distinctly remember a post from KevinB (no longer with KAC, now with FN ironically) on TOS last year stating that KAC transitioned to making their own barrels due to long back log from Colt Canada, so apparently KAC makes their own CHF barrels.
LWRCI does. The LWRCI mandrels used used in their machine are hammer forging in the chambers where as they were cut before.http://forum.lwrci.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15047
PatrioticDisorder
08-20-15, 11:50
LWRCI did and now owned by Colt has another HF machine. I think Colt might now have three HF machines. http://forum.lwrci.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15047
Colt does not own LWRC.
Colt does not own LWRC.
Thanks, I stand corrected. Google was my friend. http://www.wsj.com/articles/colt-defense-to-file-for-chapter-11-bankruptcy-protection-by-monday-1434310925
No this is incorrect, KAC was receiving CHF barrel blanks from Colt Canada up until early last year but I distinctly remember a post from KevinB (no longer with KAC, now with FN ironically) on TOS last year stating that KAC transitioned to making their own barrels due to long back log from Colt Canada, so apparently KAC makes their own CHF barrels.
pretty sure he said they used fn barrels now
right...so if someone wants to buy a CHF barrel, and they cant buy one from colt Canada, or ruger, that means their choices are only FN or Daniel defense
When he asked if you read the thread I think he meant did you read more than the first page.
FN USA
Ruger
Colt Canada
Daniel defense
Also
Arsenal Bulgaria and Styer Austria.
Maybe FN in Belgium?
Which parts are you referring to?
probably talking about cnc/billet in house now with gen 3 vs forged previously? That's all ive heard, do they do more (now)?
When he asked if you read the thread I think he meant did you read more than the first page.
FN USA
Ruger
Colt Canada
Daniel defense
Also
Arsenal Bulgaria and Styer Austria.
Maybe FN in Belgium?
Bingo.
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