View Full Version : Barrel Break-in suggestions
Looking for some input of how to go about barrel break-in. I've never been one for breaking-in a barrel but given that I just got done with a Reece build with precision in mind, I want to get the best out of barrel possible. Any tips or suggestion I know some processes can be very time consuming and have a lot of steps involved. Being that's it's not a bolt gun type precision rifle a process of shoot one clean, shoot one clean, shoot one clean, shoot 5-10 clean and call it good would be a good process?
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/pages.php?pageid=1#break
This is what I do, and it's worked out great!
Looking for some input of how to go about barrel break-in. I've never been one for breaking-in a barrel but given that I just got done with a Reece build with precision in mind, I want to get the best out of barrel possible. Any tips or suggestion I know some processes can be very time consuming and have a lot of steps involved. Being that's it's not a bolt gun type precision rifle a process of shoot one clean, shoot one clean, shoot one clean, shoot 5-10 clean and call it good would be a good process?
Very barrel dependent - what kind of barrel is it?
Rainier Arms Match 16" Middy
Very barrel dependent - what kind of barrel is it?
Please explain?
FollowThru
08-12-15, 08:29
Clean at home as normal, go to range and shoot normal session with the usual ammo, go home and clean. This is for most people.
I'm still breaking in my stainless BCM barrels.
One has about 1K rounds through it, the other only has about 200.
During break-in, I'll usually shoot about 1K rounds, or wait until the accuracy drops off before I clean it.
Please explain?I imagine material matters
Rainier Arms Match 16" Middy
Is it this one? http://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-matchtm-223-wylde-barrel-16
Please explain?
All barrels are different. There are subtleties with material, the method of rifling (cut, broach, button, hammer forged etc) The manufacturer has a huge amount of influence - top end cut rifled custom barrels are hand lapped. Button rifling produces exceptionally smooth bores/grooves, but ultimately the barrel smith laps to achieve specific dimensions.
Conversely, a chrome lined bore doesn't need a break in period. Hammer forged bbls tend to fall into the same bucket.
Add in to the mix, the barrel mfr / smith's chambering - is it a production bbl that is being chambered and spit out of a CNC lathe? Often there are chatter / reamer striations in the throat that need to be smoothed out. Reamers get dull. My reamers are sent back for resharpening on a regular basis. The cutting fluid used, has a significant influence. Stainless steel match grade barrels are most often made from 416R - this a proprietary steel made by Crucible. 416R is a hardenable resulphurized stainless and will exhibit superior machining finish when used with a sulphur based cutting fluid like Mobilmet 766. Lighter or non sulphur based oils will exhibit chip welding on the reamer - not good for throats....
Take a look at a bore through a borescope and trust me - you'll never look at a barrel bore the same again.
Top end barrels tend to settle down really quickly. Other production type barrels - well they may take hundreds, if not more rounds to get stabilized.
Of course none of this applies to blaster / bullet hoses. We are talking precision rifles.
I recently bought a prechambered match grade bbl frrom a well known and respected outfit. Per my usual procedure, I clean throughly before I put a round through the bore - you'd be stunned to see what comes out of an unfired barrel. After cleaning, I inspected the bore with a borescope - I was horrified to see that the throat looked like it had been cut with a chisel - and a big burr on one side. Luckily the throat was a very short throat and I was able to go in and recut the throat with a live piloted throating reamer to the depth that I wanted. That bbl has shot in the .1's & .2's.
Rough bores/throats will copper up pretty quick. Shooting 3-5 rounds and cleaning prevents the over fouling / coppering. This shoot and clean interval gets things smooth and gets the steel to in affect, "lay down". If the bore doesn't exhhibit any of these symtoms - chances are that the bore & throat were properly machined/lapped.
I have my own personal cleaning regime - developed over 30yrs of competitive shooting and smithing. I stay away from the really agressive ammonia based copper solvents. Scary stuff when you see what they can do to a bore or a crown. Abrasives like JB are only used at very wide intervals and only if needed for throat & front part of the bore maintenance. I use Kroil and super mild abrasives to clean with coated rods, bore guides and cotton patches. I rarely use brushes. The borescope & the groups don't lie.
Sorry for the long winded post - it's a touchy subject and everyone has their own take on it.
ETA: At the range - I clean by not only the color and deposits I see on my patches - but "feel" as well. With good quality cotton patches, you can feel the smoothness of the bore/throat.
straight from the horse's mouth: http://www.rainierarms.com/misc/barrelcare.pdf
Yes thats the one
Hard to tell who made that for them. Based on price point, my guess is that it may be a Wilson blank. Wilson's shoot pretty good - their knock is that they tend to be soft and don't last a real long time.
Hard to tell who made that for them. Based on price point, my guess is that it may be a Wilson blank. Wilson's shoot pretty good - their knock is that they tend to be soft and don't last a real long time.
So given you explanation a few post above and you assumption on barrel blank etc, whats you suggestion on break-in process? Ive never broke-in a barrel, I just take a rifle out and shoot it and call it broke-in. Of course those have either been deer rifles or DD CHF barrels that I'm not worried about.
So given you explanation a few post above and you assumption on barrel blank etc, whats you suggestion on break-in process? Ive never broke-in a barrel, I just take a rifle out and shoot it and call it broke-in. Of course those have either been deer rifles or DD CHF barrels that I'm not worried about.
So....if you really want to wring the accuracy potential out of that bbl - I would reccomend some sort of break in procedure. If you ask the top custom bbl makers on their break-in procedure, you'll get a different answer or twist from every one of them.
I can tell you what works for me - and this is what I do on a regular basis for new unfired barrels:
1. Assuming you have the following:
A) Good quality, one piece cleaning rod. I prefer coated rods.
B) a properly sized jag - center punch type - not the loop style
C) A bore guide for your specific action
D) Properly sized cotton patches
2. This is where a lot of the variations begin - solvents, abrasives, oils etc. I use the following:
A) Kroil - very very low (thin) viscosity penetrating type oil.
B) Remington Bore Cleaner (RBC) - a little about this product. Remington isn't the originator of this, they bought it years ago. It was originally on the market as Gold Medallion Bore Cleaner. When Remy bought it, they changed the name to Remington Bore Cleaner and it changed again to 40X Bore Cleaner. All the same. It uses a very very fine aluminum oxide compound in a oil suspension.
3. I start by mopping the bore with a patch that is soaked in Kroil - the Kroil will aid in wiping out the bore with any machining residue or other oils/grease/chips etc.
I usually run 2 or 3 soaked patches through. The first one will feel sticky. Subsequent ones will feel much smoother.
After this, I use the RBC. It needs to be shaken well - there is an agitator in the container. With patch on my jag, I put a nice little ring around the center of the patch. This is inserted into the throat area and I start scrubbing - short-stroking it back and forth in the throat. You will feel the difference. I scrub the throat this way for 25-30 strokes, then push it out the muzzle. I repeat, but as I short stroke / scrub I work my way down the bore. Repeat again with longer strokes - 4-6" working your way down the bore.
After this - I run another 2 or 3 wet patches (Kroil) down the bore to remove all the residue. I repeat with wet then dry until the patchs come out pretty clean. It doesn't take many. You will have the intial patches come out of the bore - basically black. These will lighten as you get everything out.
Final patch is a barely damp Kroil patch folled by a dry patch - done.
Total time? Maybe 10 mins.
I don't shoot and clean after each shot and I certainly don't do this for 50 rds. You will feel and see the difference fairly soon - depending on the feel of the bore initially, I may clean after 2 or 3 rounds if it feels "sticky". If it feel slick - I'll do this after 5. Usually shoot and clean after 5 rounds x 3 or 4 iterations and I'm done. So - I'll have 20-25 rds down the tube. If I am dealing with a high end bbl - a Krieger or Hart or an Obermeyer, I'll borscope between cleanings just to make sure of what is going on.
As always - be very careful to protect your crown - very easy to damage.
So, what do I see from this? I see barrels that shoot more consistently with less fouling. It is the exception rather than the rule to see copper fouling issues and the occurance of hard carbon deposits tends to be far less and takes many more rounds to develop. Carbon can be a bear to remove - I keep log books on all my barrels and will usually (based on a bore scope look-see) do a JB cleaning after every 1K rds or so. JB is very aggressive - so be careful if you use it.
My regular cleaning regimen is the same. Kroil, RBC Kroil, dry patch. I usually clean thoroughly every 100rds or so. Before a range session I will run some kroil & dry patch it just to "wipe" out the bore. I don't want to shoot a match with a squeky clean bore - I want one that is conditioned with at least 10-20 rds.
It is not unusual to see the first shot from a clean dry bore go in a minute low. This is very different from a cold bore shot - from a conditioned bore - a cold bore shot will shoot on zero.
There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat - your results may vary.
In addition to the above - there is a good layman's explanation from Krieger Barrels, regarding break in procedures. Krieger produces some of the finest single point cut rifled barrels on the planet. I have used them for 20+ years - they are exceptional (& expensive)!
Krieger:
"BREAK-IN & CLEANING:
With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.
Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file.
When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat.
If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the fire-one-shot-and-clean procedure.
Every barrel will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is a similar hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more color if you are using a chemical cleaner. Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in, sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the cleaning procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while breaking in the throat with bullets being fired over it.
Finally, the best way to tell if the barrel is broken in is to observe the patches; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of shoot and clean as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary."
FWIW.
Sounds good, yea ive read over all different ways on the net and wanted other opinions as well. Thank you for the time you took to post and your insight. I basically followed your suggestion, now to get to the range and put a few down the tube. Thanks
rcoodyar15
08-12-15, 14:12
straight from the horse's mouth: http://www.rainierarms.com/misc/barrelcare.pdf
I like this one
clean after each shot for the first five.
With a good match hand lapped barrel the bore should be in good shape. What you are breaking in is the throat. Those first few rounds can throw a lot of melted copper down the bore from the throat. You don't want that to stay in the bore.
You are looking for the blue on your patches. If there is no blue then you are good to go. See blue, and you probably will, you can go to the 5 and clean but watch for the blue. When you quit seeing the blue break in is really over.
Now as to a cleaning regimen there are two schools of thought,
100yrd bench resters clean between rounds. They go through a lot of barrels.
Most of the long range guys go several hundred rounds without cleaning
many don't clean till the accuracy starts to deteriorate.
You decide or let your gun tell you what it likes
I like this one
clean after each shot for the first five.
With a good match hand lapped barrel the bore should be in good shape. What you are breaking in is the throat. Those first few rounds can throw a lot of melted copper down the bore from the throat. You don't want that to stay in the bore.
You are looking for the blue on your patches. If there is no blue then you are good to go. See blue, and you probably will, you can go to the 5 and clean but watch for the blue. When you quit seeing the blue break in is really over.
Now as to a cleaning regimen there are two schools of thought,
100yrd bench resters clean between rounds. They go through a lot of barrels.
Most of the long range guys go several hundred rounds without cleaning
many don't clean till the accuracy starts to deteriorate.
You decide or let your gun tell you what it likes
Not sure where you got this but there are some concerns with the logic above, read "flaws".
Seeing "blue" is a function of using ammonia based solvents - something a fair number of serious shooters will not put in their barrels. I, being one. Ammonia will only go in a bore under very very specific circumstances. and that is rare. Most of the long range guys do not go several hundred rounds before cleaning - not sure where that came from, but most of the LR guys I know (and being one myself) don't go several hundred rounds before cleaning. Precision LR rigs are finely tuned and sensitive pieces of equipment. Coupled with the fact that many shoot very hot loads, prone to build carbon and using thin jacketed VLD type bullets (i.e. J4 jackets), as well as long bearing surface bullets that tend to fould the bore more - carbon and/or copper in the bore can be very detrimental to accuracy. A typical LR "Day" at say Perry, may see 60 - 80 rds fired. I'd clean every day at the end of the matches and head right over to the test fire range to run 5-10 rds through the bore in preparation for the next days shooting. Bear in mind, barrel burners like the 6.5mm x .284 are good for only 1000 - 1200 rds if you are lucky. Trust me when I tell you, those barrels are cleaned after every session. I had a 6.5x284 that got cleaned afer every 20-25 rds - because it needed it to maintain it's accuracy. I would never wait until the groups opened up to start cleaning.
A lot of this comes down to knowing your barrel. I have had barrels that took 2 rds to settle after a cleaning. Others took 30+ to settle them back down.
Additionally, the inference is that bench rest guys are wearing their barrels out by cleaning - not so. They are after thousandths of an inch accuracy - they need the bore to be the same condition for each round. This is especially true for aggregate shooters. Score shooters go longer. By far and away the overwhelming majority of NM course shooters clean after each day.
Finally, why would you wait to clean until accuracy deteriorates? What if that is in the middle of a string or match? If you wait until accuracy deteriorates - now you are going to have to spend that much more time & effort to get the bore back right.
PROPER Cleaning does not wear out a barrel. IMPROPER cleaning will damage a barrel.
I look at barrel cleaning as bore maintenance to keep accuracy and consistency, not something that has to be done to get the gun shooting right again.
rcoodyar15
08-12-15, 18:55
Not sure where you got this but there are some concerns with the logic above, read "flaws".
Seeing "blue" is a function of using ammonia based solvents - something a fair number of serious shooters will not put in their barrels. I, being one. Ammonia will only go in a bore under very very specific circumstances. and that is rare. Most of the long range guys do not go several hundred rounds before cleaning - not sure where that came from, but most of the LR guys I know (and being one myself) don't go several hundred rounds before cleaning. Precision LR rigs are finely tuned and sensitive pieces of equipment. Coupled with the fact that many shoot very hot loads, prone to build carbon and using thin jacketed VLD type bullets (i.e. J4 jackets), as well as long bearing surface bullets that tend to fould the bore more - carbon and/or copper in the bore can be very detrimental to accuracy. A typical LR "Day" at say Perry, may see 60 - 80 rds fired. I'd clean every day at the end of the matches and head right over to the test fire range to run 5-10 rds through the bore in preparation for the next days shooting. Bear in mind, barrel burners like the 6.5mm x .284 are good for only 1000 - 1200 rds if you are lucky. Trust me when I tell you, those barrels are cleaned after every session. I had a 6.5x284 that got cleaned afer every 20-25 rds - because it needed it to maintain it's accuracy. I would never wait until the groups opened up to start cleaning.
A lot of this comes down to knowing your barrel. I have had barrels that took 2 rds to settle after a cleaning. Others took 30+ to settle them back down.
Additionally, the inference is that bench rest guys are wearing their barrels out by cleaning - not so. They are after thousandths of an inch accuracy - they need the bore to be the same condition for each round. This is especially true for aggregate shooters. Score shooters go longer. By far and away the overwhelming majority of NM course shooters clean after each day.
Finally, why would you wait to clean until accuracy deteriorates? What if that is in the middle of a string or match? If you wait until accuracy deteriorates - now you are going to have to spend that much more time & effort to get the bore back right.
PROPER Cleaning does not wear out a barrel. IMPROPER cleaning will damage a barrel.
I look at barrel cleaning as bore maintenance to keep accuracy and consistency, not something that has to be done to get the gun shooting right again.
I agree with you just stating what I read others doing
I tried not cleaning for a while. First it went against my grain and second I think my barrel shoots better clean. In fact my precision AR sends a clean cold bore shot very close to where it shoots 10 rounds later.
I clean after every range session.
I use boretech eliminator. It will show blue. I have used sweets and for sure you have an ammonia smell. I did not think the boretech product would be bad for my bore. I am certainly open to suggestions. That is why I am on this forum to learn.
I am not one who believes that cleaning will damage a bore if done correctly. Bench rest shooters wear out a lot of barrels because they shoot a lot. I Use a bore guide and mostly use patches. I am very careful pulling the cleaning rod back by the crown. I only use a brush, nylon, after a lengthy range session or when it seems like the patches aren't coming out clean. I do run a couple of wet patches through the barrel and let them soak.
I knew the long range guys cleaned after a shooting day I just thought it was more than 80 rounds.
Here is by far the best procedure for breaking in a barrel. This is a must see video.
http://youtu.be/TRRahHX9Zkg
watching this video...the immortal words of Dean Wormer come to mind..."fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life son"
Reading through all this technical stuff makes my head explode.....I prefer to keep it simple and subscribe to what WOA recommends. They have been producing some of the most accurate barrels for decades and might know a thing or two. What's more, I believe many of you are over thinking the process and making barrel break-in entirely too complicated. To each his own!
It's not rocket science - breaking in a barrel is a way to realize the maximum potential of the barrel. Just like a racing engine - it needs to be broken in and have the rings seated before you go out and run a race. My cleaning takes me 10 mins if that.
BTW - WOA is a top notch outfit. John Holliger does outstanding work and is a great shooter. However, he doesn't make barrels - he profiles and chambers but buys his blanks from the big name mfr's. Any of the top custom mfr's will tell you to go through some variation of a break in procedure - but as you said - to each their own.
It's not rocket science - breaking in a barrel is a way to realize the maximum potential of the barrel. Just like a racing engine - it needs to be broken in and have the rings seated before you go out and run a race. My cleaning takes me 10 mins if that.
BTW - WOA is a top notch outfit. John Holliger does outstanding work and is a great shooter. However, he doesn't make barrels - he profiles and chambers but buys his blanks from the big name mfr's. Any of the top custom mfr's will tell you to go through some variation of a break in procedure - but as you said - to each their own.
Say what you will, anyone who takes Krieger and Wilson blank barrels and machines them with the success of WOA deserves respect. There is a short list of exceptional precision upper manufacturers, and WOA is on that list.
Say what you will, anyone who takes Krieger and Wilson blank barrels and machines them with the success of WOA deserves respect. There is a short list of exceptional precision upper manufacturers, and WOA is on that list.
No disrespect to Holliger or you - but, what is your point? Are you implying that Holliger says to not break in a barrel? I have a Holliger profiled Krieger on an SDM clone - My bet is that Holliger would recommend the same break in procedure that the actual barrel manufacturer suggests - Krieger.
As we both agree - there are many variations to the process. My contention is that it isn't any different (the break-in) than my normal cleaning regimen - just during the break in period, it is more frequent.
Lastly, as I stated earlier, if you polled the custom barrel guys (and this has been done ad nauseam) you will see a different procedure or take on it from almost all of them. I can go down to my shop and pull the barrel file out that has all the "Break-In" sheets that are shipped with every barrel, from Douglas, Krieger, Shilen, Obermeyer, Rock, PacNor, Noveske, Criterion, as well as sheets from outfits like Compass Lake (frank White) and others. They all recommend it, and for good reason.
Honestly, I have chambered and fitted literally hundreds of barrels in over 30 yrs of smithing. I have used them all. Shot them all and won with them. I have had guys that I chambered and fit a custom bbl to teir rifle and they ignore the break in - it is not uncommon for them to comment that they barrel just doesn't shoot a lot of X's or that it seems to copper up pretty quick. I just smile and remind them of the lack of a break-in. Bore scopes and scores don't lie.
BTW - I'll have to post a target for your MOA challenge. Good deal.
My point is simply this....you can do more harm than good using harsh solvents and abrasive brushes than just sticking with standard cleaning compounds and running patches and a snake through your barrel at pragmatic intervals. Using restraint when cleaning a barrel (even during break-in) and not going overboard is what I recommend.....and that just so happens to fall in line with White Oak.
Look forward to your entry!!! I will be running an SPR and 20" WOA match barrel in the coming months after I tweak a few things, order a new scope and get my ammo situation figured out. Should be fun!!!
titsonritz
08-13-15, 10:18
Another school of thought:
http://www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp
I shoot 25 rounds to zero, clean with Hoppe's No. 9, then recheck POI. Some barrels come alive at 100 rounds and some require 200-300. After groups shrink to minimum, I won't clean a match barrel until one that shoots 1/2 MOA groups 1 MOA.
I had a Rock River Arms LAR-8 carbine that shot 3/4 MOA at 300 yards with Malaysian 150g ball. It shot smaller groups with Federal 168g BTHP match. The carbine shot well from 100 rounds to the 4,000 round mark. The only reason I sold it was someone who witnessed the rifle's accuracy offered me more money for the rifle and scope than I had invested.
A good cleaning rod and guide are a must for longer barrel life.
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