View Full Version : How to Fix NICS
Here is a link to the article. It has some info in it that I was not aware of. http://click.email.cheaperthandirt.com/?qs=02f71e0609c46682bf3758ba90784fe8f662628c55dead97dced6d5a570e6a20
This is the gist of the problem.........."For the national background check system to work, all applicable records based on current law have to be entered into it at the state level. After all, any system is only as good as the accuracy and completeness of its database. This is where we all can agree that the system needs improvement."
Eurodriver
08-15-15, 15:07
This is the gist of the problem.........."For the national background check system to work, all applicable records based on current law have to be entered into it at the state level. After all, any system is only as good as the accuracy and completeness of its database. This is where we all can agree that the system needs improvement."
In other words, to fix NICS we need the federal government to have more records of American citizens.
Pass.
The way to fix NICS is to eliminate NICS.
wildcard600
08-15-15, 15:26
In other words, to fix NICS we need the federal government to have more records of American citizens.
Pass.
The way to fix NICS is to eliminate NICS.
Spot on.
In other words, to fix NICS we need the federal government to have more records of American citizens.
Pass.
The way to fix NICS is to eliminate NICS.
I all for dumping NICS when we have a system in which we prevent the purchase of firearms from dealers by convicted felons and people with dangerous mental health issues.
Suggestions?
So keep a broken system because there isn't a better alternative?
MountainRaven
08-15-15, 17:24
In other words, to fix NICS we need the federal government to have more records of American citizens.
Pass.
The way to fix NICS is to eliminate NICS.
Good luck.
Here is a better fix.
US Code, Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 922 (s) is hereby repealed.
Flankenstein
08-15-15, 17:33
"Fail"
I all for dumping NICS when we have a system in which we prevent the purchase of firearms from dealers by convicted felons and people with dangerous mental health issues.
Suggestions?
Tattoo felon on their forehead once they are convicted.
ETA: And then promptly set up a business where the business specialty is tattooing "not a" in the exact same lettering.
Flankenstein
08-15-15, 19:54
If you've paid your debt to society then all civil rights should be restored.
If you can't be trusted with a firearm then you should not be free to mingle with society. You should be institutionalized or put down.
For adding more records to the nics system to be basically adding more records on American citizens is a bit of an oversimplification.
The problem is those in power who wish to disarm us, and do it by hook or by crook. They would find a way to get all of us declared unfit for firearm ownership.
So, to fix nics, all qualified criminal actions should be in the database, as well as qualifying mental conditions.
It does not need to be littered with non qualifying conditions, such as so and so used to take an antidepressant for several years after the sudden death of their spouse. Or, they saw a therapist for the same reason.
It should be real qualifiers only, such as being officially declared incompetent, or unstable.
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KalashniKEV
08-15-15, 20:38
I all for dumping NICS when we have a system in which we prevent the purchase of firearms from dealers by convicted felons and people with dangerous mental health issues.
Suggestions?
I was all "grumble, grumble government record keeping..." until I remembered that we live in the information age.
Every time you get your license ran by a cop, every time you walk into a SCIF, every time you apply for a job or a loan, somebody is pulling your info.
For purposes of credit, I don't think I would like a system where I had no idea what my score was, or what unresolved issues were on there.
Same thing if I end up on the no fly list- I want to know who put me on there, at what date, and why.
...and suppose I apply for a new job. They're going to call some company and ask them if I'm a criminal or not?
Besides all that, records are created every day online from a million sources, and they are all searchable by the Google.
I say give every American Citizen an Records Summary Sheet and put it in an online database. The database could be searchable at different levels by users with different permissions, but at a minimum you should be able to see if a guy is a felon, on the Sex Offender's Registry, and what state he claims for residency.
Maybe also if he owns any land and what income bracket he falls into... oh, and definitely if he has a handicap or disability... ;)
If you can't be trusted with a firearm then you should not be free to mingle with society.
This.
I all for dumping NICS when we have a system in which we prevent the purchase of firearms from dealers by convicted felons and people with dangerous mental health issues.
Suggestions?
Keep dangerous felons and nuts in a cage until they cease being so or they expire, problem solved.
If you've paid your debt to society then all civil rights should be restored.
If you can't be trusted with a firearm then you should not be free to mingle with society. You should be institutionalized or put down.
This. We have felonies which are non violent, and we have repeat violent offenders out free.
Stricter penalties for violent offenders, others at least should not lose rights not related to the crime. Someone might be a piece of crap, but they may not be physically violent.
Edit: we had a guy locally that chopped his wife up in pieces and scattered her body in multiple McDonald's garbage cans. He got out in 8 years.
We have people in jail for life for growing plants. Our system is completely screwed up.
sevenhelmet
08-15-15, 22:14
This. We have felonies which are non violent, and we have repeat violent offenders out free.
Stricter penalties for violent offenders, others at least should not lose rights not related to the crime. Someone might be a piece of crap, but they may not be physically violent.
Edit: we had a guy locally that chopped his wife up in pieces and scattered her body in multiple McDonald's garbage cans. He got out in 8 years.
We have people in jail for life for growing plants. Our system is completely screwed up.
Agreed. We incarcerate people at a prodigious rate already, a lot more per capita than many (most?) countries, and for many of the wrong reasons. I'm not sure more incarceration is the answer, especially since it doesn't seem to have the desired effect of "rehabilitating" people. We need to re-target our efforts by sentencing violent crimes more harshly with fewer (or zero) chances for parole. Capital crimes should require a requisite burden of proof, but the appeals system should be shortened or eliminated so that it isn't years/decades later and many times over the cost of life in prison to carry out the sentence. I also think prison behavior should be more tightly controlled to reduce bad behavior and prevent the formation of prison gangs. Easy to say, probably very hard to do.
But I'm also crazy enough to think that public shaming (stocks, caning, etc.) is an appropriate punishment for some crimes, such as the horrible dog beating posted in another thread.
Back on topic,
Gun store guys: How often does NICS pop up a flag that forces you to deny purchase? How can the system be better without infringing on a citizen's rights?
If you've paid your debt to society then all civil rights should be restored.
If you can't be trusted with a firearm then you should not be free to mingle with society. You should be institutionalized or put down.
I don't agree with this statement. I served with two men who served with distinction. Based on what both have experienced and how they dealt with it, neither one should possess a firearm. One of them agrees with my assessment, the other friend does not. Both men would run to the sound of the guns armed with a sharp stick to protect the innocent.
How do we address this issue?
Flankenstein
08-15-15, 22:36
I don't agree with this statement. I served with two men who served with distinction. Based on what both have experienced and how they dealt with it, neither one should possess a firearm. One of them agrees with my assessment, the other friend does not. Both men would run to the sound of the guns armed with a sharp stick to protect the innocent.
Then you clearly don't understand freedom. Freedom is dangerous. The founders were well aware of this.
Again, if they can't be trusted with firearms then they should not be free to walk amongst the rest of civilized society.
How do we address this issue?
What issue? The fact that many humans are violent psychopaths? That's not a firearm or access to firearms problem.
Mauser KAR98K
08-15-15, 23:02
Then you clearly don't understand freedom. Freedom is dangerous. The founders were well aware of this.
Again, if they can't be trusted with firearms then they should not be free to walk amongst the rest of civilized society.
What issue? The fact that many humans are violent psychopaths? That's not a firearm or access to firearms problem.
That's a lot of liberals we'd have to put in jail.
Flankenstein
08-15-15, 23:07
T2C..since you are talking about a different situation than I was (combat vets coming home vs men and women charged with non-violent crimes domestically that prohibit them from owning firearms after their debt was paid).
The fact remains, freedom is dangerous. You want to give the federal government the power to deem who is "crazy" or who is fit to own firearms based off what? A psych eval? That's a way more dangerous proposition than doing nothing at all.
If your one friend doesn't trust himself around firearms then he doesn't have to own one. Can he trust himself around knives? How about cars? As to your other friend...what makes you so special and/or qualified that you think that you can decide whether another "free man" is fit to keep and bear arms?
Flankenstein
08-15-15, 23:07
That's a lot of liberals we'd have to put in jail.
You're tellin' me!
Flankenstein
08-15-15, 23:17
How can the system be better without infringing on a citizen's rights?
How can a universal background system work better without infringing on a citizen's rights? That's oxymoronic.
Based of your avatar, I would have assumed you'd have a firmer grasp on the subject at hand. Any type of background check system at the federal level is infringing upon citizen's rights.
MountainRaven
08-15-15, 23:41
Agreed. We incarcerate people at a prodigious rate already, a lot more per capita than many (most?) countries, and for many of the wrong reasons. I'm not sure more incarceration is the answer, especially since it doesn't seem to have the desired effect of "rehabilitating" people. We need to re-target our efforts by sentencing violent crimes more harshly with fewer (or zero) chances for parole. Capital crimes should require a requisite burden of proof, but the appeals system should be shortened or eliminated so that it isn't years/decades later and many times over the cost of life in prison to carry out the sentence. I also think prison behavior should be more tightly controlled to reduce bad behavior and prevent the formation of prison gangs. Easy to say, probably very hard to do.
But I'm also crazy enough to think that public shaming (stocks, caning, etc.) is an appropriate punishment for some crimes, such as the horrible dog beating posted in another thread.
Back on topic,
Gun store guys: How often does NICS pop up a flag that forces you to deny purchase? How can the system be better without infringing on a citizen's rights?
Higher incarceration rate than most? No. Higher than all. If memory serves, we have double the per capita incarceration rate of the next highest country (which I believe is Russia). We have more people in prison than China.
So while there's a guy who raped a little boy living in my neighborhood, the prisons are filled with people who were caught with marijuana in their car. Makes sense, don't it?
If you've paid your debt to society then all civil rights should be restored.
If you can't be trusted with a firearm then you should not be free to mingle with society. You should be institutionalized or put down.
Can I get an Amen!?!?
Preach it Brah!!!
How did we conduct background checks on felons and "mentally" unstable people before we had databases? Pretty sure, it didn't happen. As I recall a convicted felon was able to possess a firearm until the Gun Control Act of 1968 (I may be wrong). In addition some white collar crimes that are felonies do not create a disability and a firearm may still be possessed. Some states allow felons to petition for restoration of gun rights, and some allow it to occur after a set period of time.
As many have mentioned. If someone is so dangerous that we cannot allow them to ever possess a firearm again, why are they free? I also think prison should be reserved for those who are a true danger and not a place for every shoplifter, pickpocket, or marijuana smoker.
How did we conduct background checks on felons and "mentally" unstable people before we had databases? Pretty sure, it didn't happen. As I recall a convicted felon was able to possess a firearm until the Gun Control Act of 1968 (I may be wrong). In addition some white collar crimes that are felonies do not create a disability and a firearm may still be possessed. Some states allow felons to petition for restoration of gun rights, and some allow it to occur after a set period of time.
As many have mentioned. If someone is so dangerous that we cannot allow them to ever possess a firearm again, why are they free? I also think prison should be reserved for those who are a true danger and not a place for every shoplifter, pickpocket, or marijuana smoker.
I had a student in a Concealed Carry course who was convicted of Felony drug possession years ago. He had to go through a process in order to be able to purchase a firearm and obtain his CCW license. I wholeheartedly agree that once you pay your debt to society for a non-violent crime and a period of time has passed you should be able to legally purchase and carry a firearm.
Violent offenders are all too often released early and become repeat offenders when some people involved in non-violent crimes are still incarcerated. This issue needs to be addressed.
Mental health problems and firearm possession is a big issue and it will be difficult to get a lot of people in the firearms community to agree on how it should be handled. We cannot ignore the issue, because if a viable solution is not found the Liberals will come up with some draconian and restrictive legislation and force it on firearm owners.
Averageman
08-16-15, 10:55
I had a student in a Concealed Carry course who was convicted of Felony drug possession years ago. He had to go through a process in order to be able to purchase a firearm and obtain his CCW license. I wholeheartedly agree that once you pay your debt to society for a non-violent crime and a period of time has passed you should be able to legally purchase and carry a firearm.
Violent offenders are all too often released early and become repeat offenders when some people involved in non-violent crimes are still incarcerated. This issue needs to be addressed.
Mental health problems and firearm possession is a big issue and it will be difficult to get a lot of people in the firearms community to agree on how it should be handled. We cannot ignore the issue, because if a viable solution is not found the Liberals will come up with some draconian and restrictive legislation and force it on firearm owners.
I don't think you can revamp NCIS without taking a deeper look at what we call "Justice" here in America.
The idea that we have Felons walking the street with multiple violent crimes under their belts who seem to have no problem getting guns shows just how screwed up the combination of our legal and prison systems are.
If you would come to me saying that NCIS is a national priority, I think I could point you to a half a dozen things that are far more likely to impact your life than NCIS.
The idea that our borders remain porous, that our prisons systems are over crowded with nonviolent drug users all while violent felons are pushed out the door, That no one wants to address our National Debt, Term Limits,....I could go on, but you get the picture.
Does it need fixed, yes, is it a National Priority with all we have on our plate as a Nation? Well, no, not unless you want to disarm Americans.
Does it need fixed, yes, is it a National Priority with all we have on our plate as a Nation? Well, no, not unless you want to disarm Americans.
That is how the Democrats in my part of the country want to gain control over the working class.
sevenhelmet
08-16-15, 14:53
So the prevailing idea is that any big brother check on who can buy a gun is infringing on our rights, yet humans exist who shouldn't be trusted with guns. I agree with both points. What I was driving at earlier with my "how can the system be improved?" comment was not intended to ask how background checks can be improved, rather how the whole system can be improved to not infringe on our rights (no b/g checks), and still sequester/treat the violent, sociopathic, and mentally unstable criminals. I totally agree that current sentencing is severely asymmetric, and that often punishment does not fit the crime. We also do very little to treat mental issues as a society, preferring to stigmatize and prescribe away those problems. I'm not looking for a "safe" or "one size fits all" solution, because I think that's a non-starter, for reasons others have stated far more eloquently than I.
The real question I'm trying to ask is, if we all agree there are people who shouldn't be trusted with guns, where should society (not government) draw that line?
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