View Full Version : looking for 308 info/suggestions
My friend is looking to buy a general purpose 308 ar. Right now he's looking at the 901, but it's on the high side of his budget. Are there any other quality 308 di guns out there for a better price?
He wants something reliable that will reach out a little further. I think an 18" barrel would be ideal, but 16 should be fine.
The SW looks good but has a proprietary barrel. Are these generally good guns? What's involved with adding a rail to one?
Side question: does the 308 barrel nut take a different wrench than 556? I'm assuming yes.
SomeOtherGuy
08-17-15, 11:04
Your friend is probably best off waiting a few months to see what Daniel Defense is making in .308 and what it sells for. Chances are excellent that it will fill a currently large gap between the super expensive quality .308s (KAC, LMT, to some extent the 901) and the much cheaper but distinctly hobby grade .308s (basically all others).
For hobby or basic hunting type use the S&W would be a decent option. It's a decent gun and has some nice features, particularly the ambi controls. The 4" long flash hider is not a great feature but is readily replaced - for example you could get a .308 sized A2 flash hider for around $10. I have a S&W and after some initial teething issues it seems to have become reliable. What I dislike is the clamp-on gas block, and the proprietary parts.
I have a 901 and like it pretty well, but it ALSO has proprietary parts, and the quadrail version is rather heavy, and now you have uncertainties about Colt's future and future plans.
I have a gen 1 DPMS .308 (LR-308B) and it's OK, but not something I can enthusiastically recommend. I was excited about the gen2's but there seems to be a thread going about problems with them.
Armalite makes an OK product but last I knew they also had clamp-on gas blocks, at least in the flattop version, and in general nothing about them excites me much.
So like I said, wait and see what Daniel Defense offers, or get a Colt 901 if in a hurry and willing to roll the dice on its future.
Thanks. Yes, in between would be perfect and there seems to be a void and I thought I was missing something. I'll have him wait. It's not going to be a go-to gun, but you never know, and he won't accept anything not dead - nuts reliable.
The convertible aspect of the 901 is cool, but useless for him.
Good call. I have high hopes for the DD .308.
The SW looks good but has a proprietary barrel. Are these generally good guns? What's involved with adding a rail to one?
Side question: does the 308 barrel nut take a different wrench than 556? I'm assuming yes.
I have the S&W & I've never had an issue with it. Mine was $1600, which I thought was tough to beat. Not sure what the current prices are though. Some say they do favor full power loads as the GP is on the smaller side; however, I haven't had any problems.
Rail replacement is just like any other AR. He'll want to get a new gas block though.
A standard barrel nut wrench works on the S&W.
If your friend is struggling to afford a Colt, by all indications he'll be struggling harder for the DD.
I have three or four hundred rounds through the Big Smith and with the exception of under powered NATO ammo, it's all been good. We've even mounted an Aimpoint micro to it and run drills.
Yes, ditch the heavy, bulky gas block and muzzle device for something trimmer and lighter, but that's no big deal
For a more detailed look at the Big Smith https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?134269-Smith-amp-Wesson-M-amp-P-10
The money alone isn't the issue, it's the fact that it's not his go-to, and won't get shot much, he's struggling g to justify it. His wife just got a job as a veterinarian so maybe I'll just tell him to save up some $ and go to the dd or get the sw.
I feel like the colt is wasted $ since he won't use the conversion, and maybe heavier.
I'll have him wait for the DD and see where it falls in on price and specs.
Take a look at the Colt MARC 901
http://www.colt.com/DesktopModules/LiveContent/Handlers/GetImage.ashx?mid=879&eid=3&Type=View&PortalId=0
Take a look at the Colt MARC 901
http://www.colt.com/DesktopModules/LiveContent/Handlers/GetImage.ashx?mid=879&eid=3&Type=View&PortalId=0
Why did I not know that existed? I'll have him pick that up as soon as one of us finds one in stock.
Thanks!
I know you mentioned DI, but if piston is not entirely out of the question, the Ruger and Sig offerings might be worth a look, and they seem to both be in the 15 - 17 hundred range as well. I don't own either, but they have crossed my radar and I think the general consensus is "good enough for the money."
hotrodder636
08-19-15, 11:50
Saw this in the "The great .308 Debate" thread by Briman1001
"The July-Aug 2015 Recoil magazine has a "review" or hands on with the new DD .308 rifle. They list $2,700 MSRP."
polydeuces
08-28-15, 15:12
Build one, really is that simple.
Enough good product and anecdotal build info out there.
domestique
08-28-15, 21:05
Build one, really is that simple.
Enough good product and anecdotal build info out there.
Just be really careful what parts you buy. There are a couple different designs DPMS (Aero, Rainier, etc.) vs. SR25 (Mega Arms, LMT, KAC)
I bought my first LMT with chrome lined barrel for 2,500. Then I "built" (more like assembled) another LMT using a S.S match barrel, LMT upper and bolt with a Mega Arms lower for less then 2,000.... it would have cost 3k+ if I bought it already built.
Build one, really is that simple.
Enough good product and anecdotal build info out there.
^^^ This
Okay, may have to.
I have tools to build an ar15, but does the 308 take different tools and parts like rails, barrel nuts and receiver extensions?
Is there a thread to start from scratch and learn the basics? Or a chart?
domestique
08-28-15, 21:16
Okay, may have to.
I have tools to build an ar15, but does the 308 take different tools and parts like rails, barrel nuts and receiver extensions?
Is there a thread to start from scratch and learn the basics? Or a chart?
loadoutroom.com/11070/tuning-308-ar-part-one-rifle/
loadoutroom.com/10826/tuning-308-ar-part-two-carbine/
Okay, may have to.
I have tools to build an ar15, but does the 308 take different tools and parts like rails, barrel nuts and receiver extensions?
Is there a thread to start from scratch and learn the basics? Or a chart?
Thread I started that ulimately lead me to build: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?159115-The-great-308-debate
dedicated forum I used: http://forum.308ar.com
Thread with good feedback that may help: http://forum.308ar.com/topic/9809-guidance-building-my-1-and-only-308-ar/
S&W M&P10 was my choice. Ambi controls, light weight, uses standard parts.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/madcatjoe/IMAG1330_zpsbz6zmnid.jpg (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/madcatjoe/media/IMAG1330_zpsbz6zmnid.jpg.html)
Just waiting on the MOE SL midlength in OD.
polydeuces
08-29-15, 17:22
Okay, may have to.
I have tools to build an ar15, but does the 308 take different tools and parts like rails, barrel nuts and receiver extensions?
Is there a thread to start from scratch and learn the basics? Or a chart?
Check sticky (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?160319-AR10-308-AR-Build-knowledge-thread)...............:dirol:
I know you mentioned DI, but if piston is not entirely out of the question, the Ruger and Sig offerings might be worth a look, and they seem to both be in the 15 - 17 hundred range as well. I don't own either, but they have crossed my radar and I think the general consensus is "good enough for the money."
Don't dismiss a piston. The SIG 716 is one of my favorite 308 semis and I have 8 of them. Both DI and piston. Great carbine fot he price.
polydeuces
08-29-15, 17:29
Seriously guys, there is a butt-load of solid, BTDT info right here on this forum - stickies and several threads discussing building of AR308 - from scratch to range report- every conceivable issue and areas to watch being addressed.
There is very little to no room for any confusion. All one has to do is read and pay attention.
I picked up an M&P 10 about a year ago, but it has to take its place in the rotation to get shot with any regularity. That said, I like it a lot; reliable, accurate, cycles my old M1A M80 hand loads nicely. Have yet to be running my 168 gr. SMK handloads through it, at which time I expect better accuracy. Naturally, I am the weak link in the chain--but I keep plugging away at it. I'd buy it again.
Off topic ramble: The queue got more crowded with the addition of a synthetic Ruger Scout .308. Truth be told I suspect that it is all the .308 I really need and can use. A 5.56 AR is a 5.56 AR is a 5.56 AR, and really plugs a substantial niche ("indispensable"?) but the Scout is a whole lot handier and pretty capable in its own right.
Hell, I didn't even plan to buy one, but when the lighter synthetic version came out the "buy it now" solenoid slammed shut right NOW. Surprised me more than anyone.
I had a M&P 10 that blew up, and I had a TERRIBLE experience with S&W customer service. For one thing, they just flat out don't sell spare parts for them. I certainly wouldn't buy another one of their rifles that uses any proprietary parts.
I hear too many stories of problems with DPMS gII rifles to trust them, plus their generally shitty brand reputation.
The Colts are overweight, front-heavy boat anchors that only come with HBAR barrel profiles. Not exactly what I want for a lightweight fighting carbine/hunting rifle.
I think the Armalites are the best thing on the market under $2000.
Saw this in the "The great .308 Debate" thread by Briman1001
"The July-Aug 2015 Recoil magazine has a "review" or hands on with the new DD .308 rifle. They list $2,700 MSRP."
SCAR 17 territory. Maybe the street price will make sense. I'd buy a SCAR before a $2700 DI .308 even if it is make by DD.
Build one, really is that simple.
Enough good product and anecdotal build info out there.
Didn't he want dead-nutz reliable.. I still don't think the maturity and standardization of the .308 parts are there yet. Build it and you'll be responsible for it FOREVER...
I'd get a complete rifle with a WARRANTY. I think the Ruger SR762 is not a bad suggestion, piston driven and a warranty for 1600-$1700. Will hold some value and shoot fine if he doesn't want to pay for a KAC, MWS, SCAR quality rifle.
A question one may want to ask themselves is how do any of the mentioned .308 rifles compare to the basic M4 in MRBS?
That comparison makes a pretty short list, from that list looking at pro's and con's make the possible choices very limited. Granted, reliability standards for everyone are not all the same, but what frame of reference is used? MRBS/MRBF? Or something else? Sometimes certain test criteria are held at higher or lower priorities depending on the required end use, as usability/ergonomics/ease of use/etc tend to have varying levels of priority at times.
polydeuces
08-30-15, 09:34
SCAR 17 territory. Maybe the street price will make sense. I'd buy a SCAR before a $2700 DI .308 even if it is make by DD.
Didn't he want dead-nutz reliable.. I still don't think the maturity and standardization of the .308 parts are there yet. Build it and you'll be responsible for it FOREVER...
I'd get a complete rifle with a WARRANTY. I think the Ruger SR762 is not a bad suggestion, piston driven and a warranty for 1600-$1700. Will hold some value and shoot fine if he doesn't want to pay for a KAC, MWS, SCAR quality rifle.
See, that is where I have issue: don't see that aforementioned reliability in Ruger SR762, simply because it lacks the record compared to say the high-dollar LMT, KAC, or even Armalite et al.
I disagree in regard to 'maturity and standardization" - stand by what I said; boatloads of info and quality parts. We will NEVER get an AR308 TDP as with AR15, so that is a dead horse.
Building your own is the perfect alternative to getting LMT/KAC level quality (to a degree, of course...) and reliability when sourcing quality parts.
It should be said though that some (previous) experience in that area would be helpful, yes.....so we do have a caveat there indeed.
Re: the piston deal - while I don't want to get into a piston vs DI argument -they both have their advantages - why on earth I'd go for piston AR308 is a bit counter-intuitive for me. Considering DI AR15 is proven to be a perfect platform, why would I go totally different?
Balance alone would send me running, not mentioning weight gain.
But that's just me.
hotrodder636
08-30-15, 11:26
In this case, I think the "reliability" should be bounded by what use the gun will be put through. A long range shooter without heavy volume of fire? A battle rifle with similar firing schedule as that of an AR15?
I built mine as a semi-auto long range rifle. I don't expect to shoot more than about 60 rounds per session. I think this should be taken into consideration when discussing reliability, or to be considered at a minimum.
Slvr Surfr
08-30-15, 13:58
OP,
I built my AR10 without any AR 10 specific tools, sans the barrel nut wrench which came with the hand guard. I used a bench vice to hold the barrel (in conjunction with padded barrel vice) while tightening it to the receiver. I also used the vice to secure the receiver extension while tightening the RE nut. Those methods worked fine to get the job done. I would do a bit of research to ensure parts compatibility before you purchase (DPMS/SR-25 vs Armalite pattern). In the end I was happy with the result. The rifle has been solid so far with only minor teething issues. This was my first AR 10 build.
I built my rifle using a Aero Precision M5 upper and lower combo. The barrel was also sourced from AP, 18" rifle length gas system. I used AiM Surplus Nib BCG, which has worked well. I used AP's .308 specific UPG and LPG. Most of the parts worked fine, while other parts did not such as the dust cover and magazine catch. I ended up using a Strike Industries dust cover which worked OK. I think the opening for the dust cover is not properly milled and out of spec which is why the standard DC didn't work. The magazine catch thread is too short to be installed flush with the button, but it is serviceable. There are also other AR10 specific alternatives for the magazine catch. I used a MI-308 keymod SS rail which worked great. Total build weight for the rifle unloaded with no optics was 9.8 lbs.
Would I consider taking this rifle to battle, no. The purpose for this build was for either paper punching or hunting. For that purpose I was very happy with the results of my build.
A question one may want to ask themselves is how do any of the mentioned .308 rifles compare to the basic M4 in MRBS?
That comparison makes a pretty short list, from that list looking at pro's and con's make the possible choices very limited. Granted, reliability standards for everyone are not all the same, but what frame of reference is used? MRBS/MRBF? Or something else? Sometimes certain test criteria are held at higher or lower priorities depending on the required end use, as usability/ergonomics/ease of use/etc tend to have varying levels of priority at times.
When you frame it in that point of reference it puts things into perspective. "The chart" became the go-by for 556 ARs but there is no comparable tool for .308 ARs. How many folks would want to buy a less-reliable 556 AR just due to cost? Yet that seems much more common for the .308s, probably due to the price to play. Thinking about it, there's probably some correlation between the chart and MRBS but that's a matter for a difference thread.
The problem is that there's little to no available data about the different manufacturer's .308 AR MRBS. Most manufacturers probably don't have the data and those that do don't publish it. How many new generation .308 ARs have been involved in gov't tests? HK 417/G27/G28, KAC, LMT, others?
If I recall correctly, I recall a post one time from a KAC employee who stated that in their testing, the MRBS of the new carbines was more than an M4. LMT is probably closest to that performance with the others going sporadically downhill from there.
Thanks for the replies all, very helpful. I'm at least confident enough to start pricing, but can continue research from here. I'm not sure which direction hell go, either marc, mp10, or build, but it's now on hold since he just dropped 1200 on a fly fishing setup, haha.
Right now I'm thinking if he builds: aero reciever set, cmr rail, rainier bcg, a5, and either faxon barrel or rainier select 16". Need to find a non dpms parts kit, and have him pick a stock. Hopefully he'll make a decision in a few months.
Once you know what to look for, it's a lot less intimidating. Again, thank you.
Chrisreedrules
08-31-15, 08:41
I've had a S&W M&P10 for about 2 years now. Like many, I had a lot of teething problems with it at first. I had it hydrodipped and basically had a qualified gunsmith disassemble it and reassemble it. I also changed out some parts and put on an A2 stock. After the reassembly, it has been running smoothe with both high pressure and low pressure ammo, suppressed and unsuppressed. I'm starting to like it again after I had it sitting in the back of the safe for about a year. I can't wait to get it out hawgin in the fall when it cools down a little bit.
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x86/chrisdamage666/343F761F-8FED-4CB7-920E-F38DFBA2547B_zpsj7b7mlb3.jpg (http://s181.photobucket.com/user/chrisdamage666/media/343F761F-8FED-4CB7-920E-F38DFBA2547B_zpsj7b7mlb3.jpg.html)
Downsides to the M&P10 are proprietary parts. Those parts include things that aren't easy to source, and S&W won't sell you. Let's say you put 12,000 to 15,000 rounds through your barrel and it begins to wear out. S&W wants you to send the whole gun back to them and they will fix or replace whatever is needed... Well, if you have changed anything about your M&P10, like I have, you will essentially void your warranty and then you are up poop creek without a paddle, er a barrel in this example. While I've generally been a fan of S&W firearms, I think they dropped the ball with their M&P10 by not offering more after market support for it. Their own policies seem to me to be what holds the M&P10 platform back.
When you frame it in that point of reference it puts things into perspective. "The chart" became the go-by for 556 ARs but there is no comparable tool for .308 ARs. How many folks would want to buy a less-reliable 556 AR just due to cost? Yet that seems much more common for the .308s, probably due to the price to play. Thinking about it, there's probably some correlation between the chart and MRBS but that's a matter for a difference thread.
The problem is that there's little to no available data about the different manufacturer's .308 AR MRBS. Most manufacturers probably don't have the data and those that do don't publish it. How many new generation .308 ARs have been involved in gov't tests? HK 417/G27/G28, KAC, LMT, others?
If I recall correctly, I recall a post one time from a KAC employee who stated that in their testing, the MRBS of the new carbines was more than an M4. LMT is probably closest to that performance with the others going sporadically downhill from there.
I would tend to mostly agree with this. As of now, KAC, LMT, and HK lead the game in 7.62 AR type rifles. None are inexpensive, but each may have an attribute that may take priority for the end use over the other. For the most part KAC is on top of this game for now, but that doesn't automatically make them the best candidate for all.
See, that is where I have issue: don't see that aforementioned reliability in Ruger SR762, simply because it lacks the record compared to say the high-dollar LMT, KAC, or even Armalite et al.
I disagree in regard to 'maturity and standardization" - stand by what I said; boatloads of info and quality parts. We will NEVER get an AR308 TDP as with AR15, so that is a dead horse.
Building your own is the perfect alternative to getting LMT/KAC level quality (to a degree, of course...) and reliability when sourcing quality parts.
It should be said though that some (previous) experience in that area would be helpful, yes.....so we do have a caveat there indeed.
Re: the piston deal - while I don't want to get into a piston vs DI argument -they both have their advantages - why on earth I'd go for piston AR308 is a bit counter-intuitive for me. Considering DI AR15 is proven to be a perfect platform, why would I go totally different?
Balance alone would send me running, not mentioning weight gain.
But that's just me.
The Ruger SR762 is backed by Ruger which has excellent customer service. They had issues with magazine compatibility right after introduction, but my understanding is that the problem had been resolved. I would put Ruger reliability and customer service over S&W ANY DAY. I don't own an SR762 but I do have an SR556 in the collection. Never had a hiccup.
As for your concerns about weight of a piston system, the SR762 in a 16" barrel .308 is right at eight pounds. That's only 0.1 pounds heavier than my SCAR 17s which is the lightest .308 out there.
Once aqain, if you build it for a friend you will have to fix it when he has problems. And No, building it is not the "perfect alternative" to buying a LMT or KAC. It would be my last choice and with the serious problems reported with the MP10, that wouldn't be a recommendation coming from me. Building a .308 rifle for a friend is problematic compared to building an AR. I have built several ARs for myself, but when I wanted to get an AR as a gift for a friend, I bought a complete DD for him. I didn't want to have to fix it or incur any LIABILITY.
Where you got the idea that the DI AR15 is the "perfect platform" is anybody's guess. It is a good platform but far from perfect.
If the OPs buddy can blow $1200 on fly fishing stuff, he can pony up a decent amount of money for a good rifle.
This is a nice sale for someone looking to start building on a budget:
https://www.primaryarms.com/Aero_Precision_M5_Gen_II_308_Receiver_Set_W_BCG_p/ap-m5-receiver-bundle.htm
Berserkr556
09-12-15, 15:24
If you want an .308 AR that's not going to break the bank buy an Armalite AR-10 A series. They use Pmags and you can buy spare parts for them.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.