View Full Version : More guns choking and KaBooming on reman/cheap ammo???
I've read on here, other shooting forums, and on FaceBook of guns having squibs, feeding issues, and even KaBooms with what appears to be in increase in "cheap" or "reman ammo/factory new reloads" and my personal favorite the "super duper self defense loads, just for bubba's and dumb-asses" Has anyone else noticed this trend? I have looked up these companies sites and to be realistic is it really worth saving $1.00 or $2.00 when you blow up a $500 to $30,000 gun?? I witnessed a guy detonate an XDS 45 (brand new unfired until this day) all because he wanted to use some cheap gun show reloads instead of buying quality ammunition. The majority of my shooting is done with ammunition that comes off my own reloading presses so if something goes wrong I have no one to blame other than myself.
To put it into perspective:
50 rds of 230 gr ball 45 ACP cost me roughly $9.00
50 rds of 115 gr ball 9mm runs me just over $6.50
The start up cost can be painful but if you shop around you can land yourself some good equipment for a decent price. All in all I've just been wondering if its something that others have noticed or am I seeing things?
Me and buddy were just talking about some Tula ammo that acted up in his AK this weekend. I swore off the cheapest stuff along time ago. Now I get the second to cheapest, for AK. Always quality ammo for the AR tho.
Gun show reloads....NO WAY! Everything else I don't have a problem with. I buy what's on sale/cheapest. Turkish, Czech, Russian, Serbian, Romanian, S. Korean, steel case....I buy and shoot it all. The only ones I stayed away from were Pakistani POF ammo. Since starting in this hobby in 98 I have had 2 bad Wolf cartridges in 7.62x39. Both came from the same box and both had primers set a little too deep where the firing pin wouldn't reach. Those have been my only 2 problems ever.
I like the sound and the idea of reloading but it's not for me. I lack interest and don't have the patience to do it. There is no way I could sit there for longer than 5 min. Also have no interest in working up loads and trying different stuff. Just gimme my ammo so I can shoot.
The only trend I noticed is that people are blowing everything out of proportion. One guy gets a one bad round and proceeds go on every gun board ans social media to bitch.
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The Dumb Gun Collector
08-18-15, 09:32
I blew up a springfield 1911 with a double charged reload I made myself! I, like others, will shoot just about any cheap ammo, but not random reloads (AArms is ok, etc)
A few people in my gun club shoot Blazer aluminum case pistol ammunition by the case and haven't complained about blowing anything up. It's not the most accurate ammunition, but it's good enough to place well at a USPSA match.
I avoid remanufactured ammunition myself, I don't have as much time for reloading as I did in the past and am considering stocking up on Blazer.
If you reload long enough, you will make a mistake at some point and hopefully not blow up an expensive firearm.
I agree that you tempt the odds and the Gods long enough you'll make a mistake. Not getting complacent is key with that.
I'm not really referring to aluminum case Blazer or Federal as "cheap" as I've shot my share of that stuff over the years and I have to say that its decent stuff. What I'm referring to is buying stuff that's nearly the same price as reputable factory new stuff and then being shocked when there are issues with it.
I agree that you tempt the odds and the Gods long enough you'll make a mistake. Not getting complacent is key with that.
I'm not really referring to aluminum case Blazer or Federal as "cheap" as I've shot my share of that stuff over the years and I have to say that its decent stuff. What I'm referring to is buying stuff that's nearly the same price as reputable factory new stuff and then being shocked when there are issues with it.
For only $1 difference per box, I won't buy remanufactured ammunition.
Straight Shooter
08-18-15, 09:54
I just will not use reman ammo. Nor do I shoot reloads with the exception of ones from a close friend of mine, and that just a handful a year.
Seen TOO many problems over the past several decades with them. A couple years ago, there was a brand floating around these parts called ZERO Reman. ammo. I chronoed this garbage and it was FLAT OUT DANGEROUS. I literally threw away what I had, not to mention they were apparently using coal for powder...filthiest, stinking-est shit Ive ever shot in my life. I then just called it quits. Good Federal/Winchester range ammo is down low again at WW or other places, and for myself I just do not see the need or advantage to save $1-$2 or on a box of ammo. BLAZER has never given me a problem on the range and I stay stocked up on it. And I agree with T2C...you WILL make a mistake reloading if you do it long enough. Ive seen men who have reloaded longer than Ive been alive..50 years..do it.
I don't shoot reloads or reman.
I just don't have the time, desire, or interest to reload.
I had a ruptured case from tula and bought a reloader after that. If your a shooter, a reloader pays for itself in a year or two and gives you better quality ammo, win-win.
I have had bad experiences with factory reloads also, but not overcharged.
I'm a pretty religious user of Freedom Munitions but if you look at the prices of 1k of their new 124 gr for $223, vs 1k of Magtech 124 gr for $235, or 1k of American Eagle 124 gr for $259, I wonder if I'm rolling the dice too.
Although I reloaded for a couple of decades I have not been practicing that hobby in a few years. I never had a bad reload of mine in pistol, rifle or shotgun loads. But, for some reason I never reloaded 9mm. Forward to shortly after Sandy Hook and 9mm was basically absent from dealer shelves or on the web. I had never bought commercial reloads of any kind before, but my 9mm supply was dwindling fast so I bid for and won 2K of 9mm on GunBroker from a company called NATMIL. I had fired about 1700 rounds of it without problem but, I ran into obviously heavily overcharged loads in two different boxes. One load locked up my Glock 19 and the other my M&P full sized 9. A gunsmith had to get the swollen cases with flattened primers out of the chambers. I buried what was left of the NATMIL loads.
I had also bought a thousand rounds of Royal reloads and they were great. Long gone of course but no problems with any of it.
Then I bought two boxes of Ultramax commercial reloads locally. The first box went okay for several rounds then one round really went off. I was firing my Glock 19 and the report was extra loud, the recoil heavy, the magazine hit the concrete floor of the shooting range with force and my hands were on fire. I gingerly put the gun down and just looked away for a few seconds, afraid to look at my hands. Two men on the adjoining station put their guns down and came over to ask what was wrong as I looked at my hands. Both hands were heavily blackened with powder streaks but thankfully no blisters. The magazine hole where the magazine catch holds it in the gun was completely stripped out. The magazine was ruined. The empty case was stuck in the chamber and when I was able to muscle it out we found a whole half of the case head was just gone. I buried the rest of that box of ammo. My defective commercial reload cemetery was growing.
Now forward a couple of months later. At the end of a range session I found the second box of Ultramax in my shooting box. Thinking it is unlikely to get two bad boxes of the same brand I loaded up a magazine full in my Kahr P9. Bad mistake. About the fourth round again a loud report and heavy recoil (although not as bad as in the Glock). The obviously overcharged load had blown the extractor completely out of the Kahr and the right side of the upper grip was hanging open. I took the gun home and a closer look showed the grip has a designed blow out panel to relieve pressure of an overcharged round. I popped it back in place as good as new.When I pounded the overcharged case out of the Kahr it had rupture over half way around the case head. I replaced the extractor on the Kahr and it shoots as good as always although it cost about $32 in parts and shipping.
I buried the rest of that box of Ultramax.
Many people say they shoot thousands of commercial reloads without problems, and I believe them. Others say they have problems with reloads and after my experience I believe them also. Presently I am buying factory 9mm cheaper than I paid for those reloads during post Sandy Hook days. I think I'll stick with the factory stuff. My own experience with two of three brands of commercial reloads wasn't good but it was costly.
I never shoot reloads. The only remanufactured ammo I'll shoot is from defender. Had thousands of rounds, no issues. But if I get 2-3, I'll be done with them.
Dionysusigma
08-18-15, 16:14
Firing reloaded ammo is like cleaning with a Clorox and Windex mixture or drinking moonshine "made by the friend of a friend's uncle's neighbor." Yeah, it might work, but you run an elevated chance of property loss, injury, and/or death.
I'm a pretty religious user of Freedom Munitions but if you look at the prices of 1k of their new 124 gr for $223, vs 1k of Magtech 124 gr for $235, or 1k of American Eagle 124 gr for $259, I wonder if I'm rolling the dice too.
The last two purchases of 9mm I made was a thousand rounds of Speer Lawman 124 grain at $229 and a thousand rounds of Aguila 124 grain at $214 with $16 shipping on each order. If you order 2K of 9mm at the same time you get a break on shipping as it is $25 for two thousand.
Freedom Munitions is one of the brands people speak highly of as a re-manufacturer but, it is about the same price as factory and it is re-manufactured. I guess the companies make a distinction between re-manufactured and reloaded, but I don't know what that difference is.
Stick with what works for you. The commercial reloads just didn't treat me well.
I've had people, including acquaintances, offer me their reloads at the range, both as generosity and to "see if it works in your gun".
No thank you.
Most commercial remanufacturers are loading on the same automated machines that the big boy - Federal, Remington, etc. use.
Even then there are a lot of variables - how long do they use dies, what and when is general maintenance doen to the machines, etc.
IMO the biggest variable is the brass. I'd be willing to bet a lot of those kabooms are brass that has been cycled through too often. We bought from a pretty well-known remanufacturer for several years, each year we started with new brass, when we shipped them brass our brass was identified as our brass and used for our reloads. In this manner the manufacturer was able to ensure that the brass used in our reloads hadn't been reloaded too often. Fast forward and the guy sold the company to a group of investors. These guys stopped the practice of matching brass to buyers. With in a year or so we started having case head separations - magazines blown from weapons, floorplates blown off, stung hands, etc.
Based on this I would most interested in the pedigree of the brass being used for the remanufacturing.
I've generally have no problem buying practice ammunition from most remanufacturers so long as it is made from new brass.
JMO
Most commercial remanufacturers are loading on the same automated machines that the big boy - Federal, Remington, etc. use.
Even then there are a lot of variables - how long do they use dies, what and when is general maintenance doen to the machines, etc.
IMO the biggest variable is the brass. I'd be willing to bet a lot of those kabooms are brass that has been cycled through too often. We bought from a pretty well-known remanufacturer for several years, each year we started with new brass, when we shipped them brass our brass was identified as our brass and used for our reloads. In this manner the manufacturer was able to ensure that the brass used in our reloads hadn't been reloaded too often. Fast forward and the guy sold the company to a group of investors. These guys stopped the practice of matching brass to buyers. With in a year or so we started having case head separations - magazines blown from weapons, floorplates blown off, stung hands, etc.
Based on this I would most interested in the pedigree of the brass being used for the remanufacturing.
I've generally have no problem buying practice ammunition from most remanufacturers so long as it is made from new brass.
JMO
The Royal re-manufactured ammo which I mentioned that worked well for me was reloaded using once-fired brass according to the owner, whom I talked with. He advised me to send my own once fired brass (which saved $55 per thousand at that time) and they would reload it and return it to me. They operated similar to your guy, reloading and returning the customer's brass to him. I'm not sure if they are still in business.
Overused and weakened brass likely plays into some bad scenarios. Base on the flattened primers and swollen cases stuck in the chambers I'll guess the problem with the NATMIL ammo was powder overcharges. The blow case heads on the Ultramax loads could have been the fault of weakened brass. I'm certainly not qualified to make a well educated guess.
Bottom line for me is to avoid re-manufactured ammo. You opinion may vary and that's okay.
NCGREENSWAMP13
08-18-15, 19:06
I've put almost 1500 rnds of tula/wolf through my Vp9 with not one problem. Nothing but cheap stuff through my Arsenal SLR 107fr no problems. Maybe I'm asking for trouble but so far so good.
BuzzinSATX
08-18-15, 19:12
I'm a pretty religious user of Freedom Munitions but if you look at the prices of 1k of their new 124 gr for $223, vs 1k of Magtech 124 gr for $235, or 1k of American Eagle 124 gr for $259, I wonder if I'm rolling the dice too.
If you are shooting Freedom Munitions New, you are not shooting reloads, you are shooting new, factory ammo. Their "reman" is loaded the same way except they are using previously fired brass versus new brass.
I pointed that out in another thread discussing Freedom Munitions the the only difference is new vs used brass. My thoughts on that is-if they have issues with one then I bet they'll have issues on the other side too.
Firing reloaded ammo is like cleaning with a Clorox and Windex mixture or drinking moonshine "made by the friend of a friend's uncle's neighbor." Yeah, it might work, but you run an elevated chance of property loss, injury, and/or death.
Bullshit.
I don't shoot reloads or reman.
I just don't have the time, desire, or interest to reload.
Ditto, on both accounts. Add to that, I also don't have the space.
Factory Remans/gun show reloads make absolutely no sense to me. Reman stuff saves almost nothing over factory new and adds totally unnecessary risk.
That said, I load most of my own ammo, couldn't afford to shoot uspsa/3gun/etc without doing so.
Not to crap on Freedom exclusively, as this can happen with any remans, but these guys will mix any headstamps in batches which my reloading experience says is a bad idea. I use only ATK brass (speer, FC, blazer) or winchester brass in separate lots when I load. I witnessed a guy on our range have 2 case head separations out of one box of Freedom reman stuff. Our gunsmith kindly dug the first case out of the chamber for him. This is the result of allowing poor quality brass to be reloaded.
I've had a press for a year and a half and barely touched it. I just buy whatever is cheap for range ammo.
I avoid commercial reloads completely. If somehow factory ammo became unobtainable, I'd start reloading before I purchased reloads.
I'm always amazed at the guys at gun shows who will walk up to a table, pick up some random ziplock baggy of bubba's reloads, and take it home.
Quality remanufactured ammunition is fine.
Quality reloaded ammunition at home is fine.
Expect the definition of quality to vary widely. Many who reload, commercially or at home, shouldn't.
I shoot alot of reman freedom 223 and have ever had an issue.I dont mix brands and all my ammo stays in the box with the lot number until after I shoot it.Its at the point now that prices are all starting to bottom out between brands so ill probably pick up a couple new cases of ppu or wolf gold this week.My buddy was shooting tula brassmax through a gun and it blew the top of the barrel right off.He contacted them and he had a check in his hands fairly quickly for the full replacement amount for the gun.Id venture to guess most large companies who load ammo would do the right thing if their ammo caused a problem.No way id ever consider shooting gun show reloads lol
Ive had exactly two issues with surplus ammo, both Malaysian M193(?) 5.56 ammo early 1990's time frame.One primer blew out while being shot from an AR and another round literally fell apart while being loaded into a GI mag. As far as factory reloads, Zero was the most filthest ammo Ive ever used in any gun, a S&W M 15 in .38 Special. Absolute mess but all rounds worked and chrono as advertised. Another local commercial reloader, either MDC or MPC cant recall there name for some reason, there rounds were all over the place in terms of velocity, accuracy and reliability out of a similar revolver. My buddy & I stopped shooting it after 15 rnds each or so. Gave it to a guy who reloaded and he was thrilled at getting them even after being told of the issues we had. I dont have the time or interest to reload. I buy it cheap and stack it deep! For me its easier to do it that way. A neighbor who reloads his rifle & pistol ammo really goes to great lengths to ensure consistency and safety. He will start at 12pm and reload straight until 4 or 5 pm. Never picks up his cell, no BSing with friends etc. Secludes himself completely. While Ive never seen his reloads cause an issue, iI don't know what great advantage he has in terms accuracy, reliability etc. He did admit that it will be about a year or so to recoup his investment in all the equipment but can never make back the time spent on it.
I've been reloading for over 30yrs..In all that time the only issue I had with my ammo was a couple of squibs.in some pistol ammo. Luckily, I had some squib rods and was able to clear them easily. The above comment about there being some people reloading who shouldn't be is quite true. If your the type of person who is easily bored,distracted, has trouble paying attention to details, or dosent have alot of mechanical ability, then you probably shouldn't be reloading. I've got a few hard rules that I abide by when I sit down in front of my bench to load.
1. NEVER have more than one kind of powder on the bench at a time. This avoids confusion, and can possibly save you from a kb.
2. Before you start,ALWAYS,ALWAYS,ALWAYS Zero the scale.
3. NEVER load when you're tired,distracted,angry, on medication etc, If you can't pay attention to what you're doing,you've no business sitting down in front of the press.
4. For those of you who own a progressive press (as I do) remember, reloading isn't a race. Just because your press can reload 400rnds an hour,dosent mean you have to.
I abided by these rules from day one. It's worked for me
BuzzinSATX
08-19-15, 14:01
I've been reading for over 30yrs..In all that time the only issue I had with my ammo was a couple of squibs.in some pistol ammo. Luckily, I had some squib rods and was able to clear them easily. The above comment about there being some people reloading who shouldn't be is quite true. If your the type of person who is easily bored,distracted, has trouble paying attention to details, or dosent have alot of mechanical ability, then you probably shouldn't be reloading. I've got a few hard rules that I abide by when I sit down in front of my bench to load.
1. NEVER have more than one kind of powder on the bench at a time. This avoids confusion, and can possibly save you from a kb.
2. Before you start,ALWAYS,ALWAYS,ALWAYS Zero the scale.
3. NEVER load when you're tired,distracted,angry, on medication etc, If you can't pay attention to what you're doing,you've no business sitting down in front of the press.
4. For those of you who own a progressive press (as I do) remember, reloading isn't a race. Just because your press can reload 400rnds an hour,dosent mean you have to.
I abided by these rules from day one. It's worked for me
Great advice. Thanks.
BTW and OT... hat tip to your Robert Service quote in sig line. I'm a big RS fan.
Take Care,
Buzz
brickboy240
08-19-15, 15:20
Freedom Munitions newly loaded ammo shoots great.
I have run cases through my Glocks, 1911s, SIGs and the Hi-Power with no troubles.
I have looked at their reman stuff but the cases look dirty and it just seems too iffy.
Freedom's new made stuff is cheaper than most any new ammo at any gun store around here. Especially since I live near their store and do not pay shipping.
Y buddy buys reloads from LAX and always has hard primer issues in his Glock. 2 per magazine lately. I've put about 14k of Russian steel case through my AR and never had an issue. I have about 5k through my Glock and only started having light primer strikes with the most recent lot, about 2 per box. Accuracy isn't the best but for 1/2 to 2/3 the price, no complaints here. Never had an issue with the AK.
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