View Full Version : What Changed America?
This is a spinoff of some thoughts I had while reading the What Do We Know About Bernie Sanders thread, I didn't want to derail, but am curious about your opinions.
I followed this link and then followed a couple links in the article (posted in the Bernie Sanders thread). That got me to thinking about the 90% tax deal.
I went to this site: http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfo...ry_nominal.pdf and what I found generated some questions and observations about America.
I favor a flat tax or national sales tax, I am not in favor of 90% taxes for anyone, but, I have to ask myself, what changed America's people over the course of a century?
From 1935 onward the highest tax rates were above 63%; beginning in 1937 they were above 80%, hitting 94% in 1945, and staying above 90% until 1964; in 1964 the rate dropped to 74% and remained at 70% until 1982 when it dropped to 50%; it remained at 50% until 1987 when it dropped to 38.5%.
During this period America became the most powerful Nation on the earth, our manufacturing capability was second to none; the interstate highways were built, what was different then than now? Just what was bad about America during this period, civil rights aside?
A simplistic look at the National Debt for the last 90 years shows that those tax rates were busy paying down the Debt in a businesslike manner. Korea created a bump, as did VN and the 'Great Society' but National Debt as a percentage of GDP went below 33% in 1973 and stayed below 33% until 1982's recession. Since then it has steadily risen, the Clinton administration saw a 10% drop in debt as % of GDP over their 8 years, but the GWOT signaled another rise, which we all realize has continued.
A lot has changed over those years, but what fundamentally changed the outlook of America, what changed us to a Nation of 'what is in it for me, instead of what is in it for us?'
As I wrote this I fully realized it sounds kind of kumbaya, but I genuinely an curious, what changed our mindset? Was it cable news; was it a more educated population; or are the baby boomers and their progeny just assholes, what changed?
Repeating: I favor a flat tax or national sales tax, I am not in favor of 90% taxes for anyone, but, I have to ask myself, what changed America's people over the course of a century?
The communists have run academia for quite some time.
Crow Hunter
08-25-15, 11:09
America is no longer a basically homogeneous cultural norm society.
What you are seeing is what happens when there is no longer a primary cultural norm that everyone adheres to.
This cultural homogeneity is what allows the Nordic countries to flourish.
In those types of environments society as a whole predominantly does and reinforces everyone else doing what is best for the society, having children out of wed lock, sticking it to the man, living on the dole, getting what's mine is greatly frowned upon by the greater society and is considered very shameful. In those types of societies a rising tide does raise all ships equally and people are accepting of higher tax rates because they know that their money is not being wasted and everyone puts their best effort into whatever they do whether they be a CEO or a janitor. They realize that every dollar of taxes they pay in will increase their society going forward because of improved infrastructure and job training for those who need it.
However, that isn't the case anymore in America.
Now it is everyone for themselves. There are huge swaths of the population in America who believe that working is for chumps and the traditional American cultural norms are universally panned in the media and popular culture. That in turn means that people are not willing to have huge amounts of their income taken to pay for people to do nothing all day and live like Honey Boo Boo et al.
The best term I have seen to describe it is Cultural Balkanization.
It is one of the unfortunate side effects of our immigration policies and those who drive popular culture (propaganda).
brickboy240
08-25-15, 11:59
Nordic communities?
Not today!
Since I have relatives that still live in Sweden, I often get a kick out of most American's views or ideas of what the Scandinavian countries are like. Mostly...I find their views are of this area, circa 1982.
Most of the Scandinavian countries today are awash with a huge underclass of non-Anglo immigrants that have recently flooded into their nations. These new arrivals are not learning the language or adapting to any parts of Scandinavian society. They often live in their own neighborhoods and do not assimilate or evn try to fit in to the society they moved in to.
Many of these peoples came from Eastern Iron Bloc countries, the Balkans or Northern Africa. Most are (surprise) Muslims.
Crime in the Scandinavian countries has skyrocketed in recent years and unemployment is very high within these recent immigrants. There is a huge rift between the native Swedes and the recent immigrants. Neither likes or trusts the other. It was as if the liberal govt just foisted the new immigrants upon the native Swedes.
...situation sound familiar?
Well...Sweden is no longer the peaceful, lilly-white Utopia that some Americans think it is. That was Sweden in the early 80s, maybe.
Letting just anybody run for office and then letting just anybody vote.
The_War_Wagon
08-25-15, 12:27
Letting just anybody run for office and then letting just anybody vote.
Particularly Kenyan/Indonesian/British foreign nationals... :mad:
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-25-15, 12:59
The tax rate is a red herring. It isn't that we don't collect enough taxes, we spend ourselves silly on low return (transfer payments) expenditures.
That and those tax rates were on much higher inflation adjusted numbers, like in the millions, not around d $300-400k like now. That and a lot of people ways around the taxes.
There are a whole lot of other trends besides tax rates that explain and correlate with our decline.
Dope smoking, filthy, hippies who thought they were qualified to make the world a "better place" who sadly existed in large enough numbers to effect actual change. They've been making it worse ever since.
Averageman
08-25-15, 13:42
The communists have run academia for quite some time.
I'm sure this has a lot to do with it.
Also, no matter how much money you take in or what the tax rate is, it only really matters what you spend that money on.
You can pay back the debt, but we're not doing that. You can build the infrastructure, but we're not doing that either.
What is being done with the money is a lot of sweetheart deals through routing money around and paying folks to figure a way to scam more bennies out of the system.
We had a great country and still have a lot of potential, until scamming us out of our tax dollars becomes a crime and we get term limits for our political Masters, we will continue to hell in a hand basket.
if you research those tax rates NOBODY ever paid those high % there was so many loopholes and so many write offs etc... so that is just political BS about those %
yes they tried for sure but again look at the % the top %5 of wealthy pay today and look at our taxes compared to other countries !!!! the rich are still floating everyone
the gov is out of control and its spending is out of control and un checked
what has happened about debt is we have to fund abortions ? we have to fund gays in prison wanting to become the opposite gender ! we have to give out so so so so so much money to folks who wont work and are criminals and yet we still give them money !
our spending is out of control not our taxes !
and as far as our country being destroyed its all the progressives fault as that is there plan and most folks are so stupid as to follow along and believe the BS they spout
Straight Shooter
08-25-15, 15:18
In MY not humble opinion...two things have absolutely ruined this country. Illegal immigrants & politicians.
And, for me, I can pin point the day things made a literal turn for the worse. The first time Bill Clinton got elected. There were, of course, rancorous differences between left/right..Dem/Repub..Lib/Cons..but NOTHING like it was after that draft dodging, whore-mongering, MURDERING lying ass Clinton got elected. To me, in my mind, that is when the "media" went whole hog lefty and have not turned back since. His election, and re-election, again to me in my mind, started a rip and tear in this country that has now been magnified a thousand fold. Most all of the lib wet dreams we see have now come true originated right then & there with that ****stick, and now of course we are going thru the same type of shit with his lezzie wife.
The hippies became the government.
Straight Shooter
08-25-15, 15:40
The hippies became the government.
THIS ties in to my post perfectly.
Moose-Knuckle
08-25-15, 16:18
What hasn't changed America?
IMHO the beginning of the end was in 1913 when then President Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act into law.
The Creature from Jekyll Island (http://www.amazon.com/The-Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal/dp/0912986212)
Moose-Knuckle
08-25-15, 16:20
The hippies became the government.
"True revolutionaries do not flaunt their radicalism. They cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within." - Saul Alinksy
Moose-Knuckle
08-25-15, 16:30
America is no longer a basically homogeneous cultural norm society.
What you are seeing is what happens when there is no longer a primary cultural norm that everyone adheres to.
This is what happened to Rome, after centuries Rome got to a point where there were more non-Romans living there than Romans.
Moose-Knuckle
08-25-15, 16:36
Most of the Scandinavian countries today are awash with a huge underclass of non-Anglo immigrants that have recently flooded into their nations. These new arrivals are not learning the language or adapting to any parts of Scandinavian society. They often live in their own neighborhoods and do not assimilate or evn try to fit in to the society they moved in to.
Many of these peoples came from Eastern Iron Bloc countries, the Balkans or Northern Africa. Most are (surprise) Muslims.
Crime in the Scandinavian countries has skyrocketed in recent years and unemployment is very high within these recent immigrants. There is a huge rift between the native Swedes and the recent immigrants. Neither likes or trusts the other. It was as if the liberal govt just foisted the new immigrants upon the native Swedes.
...situation sound familiar?
Well...Sweden is no longer the peaceful, lilly-white Utopia that some Americans think it is.
People would be wise to research gang rapes in Sweden and the UK by Islamic "refugees". The governments and the media do their best to down play it but nothing makes a people want to "nationalize" more than seeing their little girls, teen daughters, and young women brutally gang rapped by these abhorrent oxygen thieves. There is literature out there that Imams want to breed out whites in Europe. But as Barry O would say, there just "random acts of violence".
The communists have run academia for quite some time.
This.....exactly and everyone who knows better is too busy working "Keeping the Business running" to stand up and stop it, so it continues and perpetuates itself. Critical thinking and reasonable discourse are long forgotten. This is now a nation of wanna be famous, drama queens and pussies. I also lay some of this to the hippie generation of the 60's and the ignorant, closed minded kids they raised.
This.....exactly and everyone who knows better is too busy working "Keeping the Business running" to stand up and stop it, so it continues and perpetuates itself.
If you mean keeping the business of government running, to their advantage then, in general, I absolutely agree. I don't agree with your broad 'academia is run by communists' there are certainly some disciplines that may be socialist in nature, but not all of them. Likewise there are a lot of pretty conservative universities. If you are speaking of efforts to ensure all kids have the same access to a good education, regardless of their parent's socio-economic standing, I don't call that communist, I call it fair.
Critical thinking and reasonable discourse are long forgotten. This is now a nation of wanna be famous, drama queens and pussies. I also lay some of this to the hippie generation of the 60's and the ignorant, closed minded kids they raised.
I believe those hippies are now called baby boomers, and they are part and parcel of the problem. We, America in general, have been pursuing a pretty hedonistic lifestyle for the last 3 to 4 decades. Critical reasoning and reasonable discourse are some of the first casualties in the 'its all about me lifestyle.'
I have noted locally the decline of fraternal organizations such as the Elks, the Eagles, the VFW and the American Legion. I also see fewer folks joining mainstream civics organizations such as the Lions Club, Optimists, Kiwanis, Rotary, etc. This trend seems to illustrate the individualistic mindset that permeates our society today. Community service, nope, I've got my jet-ski and my x-box. There is no sense of sacrifice for the common good.
The best term I have seen to describe it is Cultural Balkanization.
It is one of the unfortunate side effects of our immigration policies and those who drive popular culture (propaganda).
I think this is accurate. I was born in 1959 so have personally witnessed this phenomenon. The previous immigrants wanted to become "American" to fit in, and climb the economic ladder, a melting pot, so to speak. Today, everyone wants to play identity politics, and get something for being different. It is sad to see this. I blame the media, education, and our progressive government agencies. The Axis of evil.
Agree on the Baby Boomer Hippies. They rebelled against the parents, and the greatest generation. Too many rules, too much discipline, and we are suffering for it. They let their kids run wild because they wanted to be their friend instead of the parents, fearing that they would dislike them. Everything is about "feelings" with them. Well they can't make the tough calls, so their kids are also largely part of the problem.
I concur with pretty much all the responses.
What I find interesting/infuriating is that all these libtards/progressives/traitors are all about "diversity", weakening borders, eliminating controls on immigration when it comes to the Western world, yet do not bitch about the lack of "diversity" in the Muslim world, the Arab world, Africa, China, etc.
Their entire agenda is driven by hatred of the West. The whole "social justice" thing is just cover for their goals of sabotaging the civilized world.
MountainRaven
08-25-15, 23:51
I concur with pretty much all the responses.
What I find interesting/infuriating is that all these libtards/progressives/traitors are all about "diversity", weakening borders, eliminating controls on immigration when it comes to the Western world, yet do not bitch about the lack of "diversity" in the Muslim world, the Arab world, Africa, China, etc.
Their entire agenda is driven by hatred of the West. The whole "social justice" thing is just cover for their goals of sabotaging the civilized world.
They don't live in the Muslim world, the Arab world, Africa, China, &c.
People would be wise to research gang rapes in Sweden and the UK by Islamic "refugees". The governments and the media do their best to down play it but nothing makes a people want to "nationalize" more than seeing their little girls, teen daughters, and young women brutally gang rapped by these abhorrent oxygen thieves. There is literature out there that Imams want to breed out whites in Europe. But as Barry O would say, there just "random acts of violence".
This was posted by a mod on PF.com...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSJY0c8QWw
Moose-Knuckle
08-26-15, 01:20
This was posted by a mod on PF.com...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSJY0c8QWw
Outstanding commentary, he might as well have been talking about the US.
What hasn't changed America?
IMHO the beginning of the end was in 1913 when then President Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act into law.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal/dp/0912986212
Helluva great book. My neck got sore from shaking my head so much reading it. If it weren't true you would never believe that a "central bank" like the Fed could ever exist. Most people have absolutely no clue about the Fed, its origins, or who runs it. At this point, I do agree that America changed. It is the first express elevator towards the oligarchy where we are today.
They don't live in the Muslim world, the Arab world, Africa, China, &c.
Yes, but libtards/progressives aren't confined to the West. They travel (kind of like viruses), and they feel free to shit on countries other than their own - provided that those countries are historically white or Christian. When they travel to non-white, non-Christian places, they shut their yaps and look the other way when bona fide injustices stare them in the face.
Things are not looking for for America, the West, individual freedoms and liberty.
brickboy240
08-26-15, 10:57
"The Creature from Jekyll Island" should be required reading in public high school.
Yes...a fascinating read.
"The Creature from Jekyll Island" should be required reading in public high school.
Yes...a fascinating read.
Likely you won't find it in many high school (or even some public) libraries. Herein lies the problem.
American society, culture, what have you, has always been a roller coaster ride, but the track started coming up on May 31, 2000 with the premiere of "Survivor". Reality TV rots brains, diminishes morality and makes "heroes" of folks who should have kept their personal lives personal...
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/ebe80227-2eb1-40ad-b456-1b4a97d724d2_zpsgdxgyhgd.jpg
brickboy240
08-26-15, 13:43
It began LONG before 2000.
The education establishment began dumbing down school kids starting in the 70s or so. Since that time...the quality of education has gone way, way down and all by design.
American society, culture, what have you, has always been a roller coaster ride, but the track started coming up on May 31, 2000 with the premiere of "Survivor". Reality TV rots brains, diminishes morality and makes "heroes" of folks who should have kept their personal lives personal...
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/ebe80227-2eb1-40ad-b456-1b4a97d724d2_zpsgdxgyhgd.jpg
It began LONG before 2000.
The education establishment began dumbing down school kids starting in the 70s or so. Since that time...the quality of education has gone way, way down and all by design.
I say it started in the summer of 1967 at the corner of Haight and Ashbury...
wildcard600
08-26-15, 19:42
My buddies grandmother, before she passed away in the 1980's, used to say that america's decline started with FDR. She used some colorful euphemisms that would make a sailor blush when talking about him.
Seems to me the decline started a long time ago and cannot be pinned on one single cause.
Many things changed America for the worse. But the biggest issue is the people who CAN do something about it cling to comfort In lieu of standing up and fight for what is right.
The second we the people lost our will to pay any price for what is right- that's when things really spiraled out of control and that's how we got here.
American society, culture, what have you, has always been a roller coaster ride, but the track started coming up on May 31, 2000 with the premiere of "Survivor". Reality TV rots brains, diminishes morality and makes "heroes" of folks who should have kept their personal lives personal...
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/ebe80227-2eb1-40ad-b456-1b4a97d724d2_zpsgdxgyhgd.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Cossey
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/65/6e/ae/656eae4ae03c04c3a07478404db4cfc8.jpg
Averageman
08-26-15, 21:23
My buddies grandmother, before she passed away in the 1980's, used to say that america's decline started with FDR. She used some colorful euphemisms that would make a sailor blush when talking about him.
Seems to me the decline started a long time ago and cannot be pinned on one single cause.
I have a Grand Uncle that hated FDR so much he made it his personal mission to take as many FDR dimes out of circulation as possible. When he passed he had coffee cans full of them in his cupboard.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/26/593fecee6189deac65ebea6a0c65d960.jpg
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Ya gotta love cards against humanity...
I had no idea about that Bond...person. I do think Steyr is on to something, reality TV is one of the worst things to come in the last dozen or so years.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
What changed America?
America was formed with the intent of change.
The founding fathers changed America by creating America. So far it hasn't stopped. As screwed up as any little aspect of focus may seem. As a whole, it's still hard to beat.
Day to day life and mental stress are not exclusive to America. I can't recall anyone from any country that likes their government.
I had no idea about that Bond...person. I do think Steyr is on to something, reality TV is one of the worst things to come in the last dozen or so years.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I don't want to take credit for an observation that was done by BBossman which I simply quoted. I was in fact trying to demonstrate the gender thing predates reality TV by a few decades. I have similar criticisms of reality TV but I think it's more of a benchmark on the decline rather than a cause.
Before reality TV it was Jerry Springer and his daily freak show. Certainly Jerry Springer and reality TV crap go a long way to presenting the various freak shows as some kind of "normal" and thus contributing to their acceptance, but the root cause is the idea that we must accept people no matter what and that they are simply different. And that goes back quite awhile.
And even if you go back to that point, you run into this problem. During the 40s and 50s we had people who were actually excluded, both socially and professionally for ridiculously absurd things. If a person was a little different but not doing anything wrong, they could find themselves ostracized and it could impact the quality of life available to them. Non conformity had a cost in polite society.
The problem is we can be a nation of retards and we fluctuate from one extreme to the other whenever we identify a problem. We go from making a kid feel suicidal because he isn't good at sports at one extreme to compensating by saying a kid who wants to dress like a girl should still be allowed to join the football team so he isn't made to feel "different." We don't seem capable of existing in any kind of reasonable middle ground.
We identify something as wrong, and assume the opposite extreme position must always be right. The problem is, it's rarely any better. It's like taking a country where guns are completely banned and requiring everyone to own a gun, even the people who probably shouldn't have one, to compensate for the first wrong.
My post wasn't meant to express an opinion on transgender folks. I have no interest in changing gender so I have no real interest in the lives of transgender people. I was just offering an example of reality TV creating "heroes" of people who put their personal lives in the spotlight. Obviously Jenner's decision would have made the news regardless, but the Kardashian connection and "Keeping Up With" that reality show makes it a circus. There are lots of folks who make life choices everyday that don't feel the need to climb up on a parade float and shout about it.
My aversion to reality TV isn't solely based on Jenner's show, but the genre as a whole. I have co-workers who are obsessed with this shit and I don't work in a farm supply store or fast food restaurant, but a DC law firm located on Pennsylvania Avenue.
Crow Hunter
08-27-15, 10:21
Heard about this on NPR this morning....
The same publisher that did Harry Potter and the Hunger Games among others.
What changed America indeed.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/scholastic-publishing-novel-transgender-eight-year-old-self-described-fat-queer-activist_956151.html
I'm sorry an eight year old child does not have the maturity to make these kind of decisions and writing books about it will just make things even more confusing for children.
brickboy240
08-27-15, 10:28
The biggest problems are two fold.
First, we allowed the nuclear family unit to die off and lose its importance in our culture. From gay marriage to single moms to the high divorce rate - the nuclear family is damned near gone in American society. The importance of the nuclear family has also diminished.
Second, we have allowed America's common culture to evaporate. It seem ok for immigrants to come here and never learn English or participate in our cultural events and traditions. We are essentially becoming balkanized into sects and enclaves. People that may share a similar ZIP code but nothing more than that. People living on the same street, speaking different languages, celebrating different holidays, wearing different clothing....not a cohesive community of folks that know each other.
If you ask me....those two things will keep America from "coming back" as we are just splintered groups that happen to share a country.
If I wrote a book about a respectful 10 year old who valued education, was nice to girls, loved his parents, and encouraged others to lead a decent lifestyle and so forth....
Well they would issue a Fatwah on me Rushdie style.
I wish we could be like Starship Troopers where you have to do two or three years of some kind of hard service before you're allowed to vote.
Moose-Knuckle
08-27-15, 13:29
If I wrote a book about a respectful 10 year old who valued education, was nice to girls, loved his parents, and encouraged others to lead a decent lifestyle and so forth....
Well your book would be burned at Fahrenheit 451 degrees and you would take a perpetual vacation to sunny Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
However if you self-identify as a "fat queer trans activist, glitter liberationist, urban gardener" you'll be touted as a folk-hero and have a public school named after you.
If I wrote a book about a respectful 10 year old who valued education, was nice to girls, loved his parents, and encouraged others to lead a decent lifestyle and so forth....
Well they would issue a Fatwah on me Rushdie style.
I wish we could be like Starship Troopers where you have to do two or three years of some kind of hard service before you're allowed to vote.
So the football player from Gang Banger High gets to vote but the kid who majored in economic and knows he'd never survive military service can't vote.
So the football player from Gang Banger High gets to vote but the kid who majored in economic and knows he'd never survive military service can't vote.
Agree 100%. No mandatory service. I'd be ok with you don't pay taxes: you don't vote. You receive tax benefits (welfare, WIC, etc..): you don't vote
Well...who says the football kid from gang banger high doesn't become a better person from it.
I was going by the book, even though I love the movie.
The point is, why does the magical age of 18 give people equal say?
Anyone who's ever carried a ruck and rifle, policed a nasty ghetto beat, rode an ambulance, or whatnot tend to appreciate that there's so much unnecessary waste and outright laziness in the world.
They bus people in to vote and register them as fast and often as they can. Me, I had to do it myself because I wasn't the key demographic.
In the book, they said service, not just the Mobile Infantry.
Story time: Knew this girl in college. She was real hippie dippie. Well...she joined the Peace Corps. She was a cute little thing although I simply couldn't talk politics with her (and I was far from political, still am). So she's going on and on about the Peace Corps.
Well, they shipped her off to Africa.
I see her again a year or so later and she is a radically different person. She went from being like Dharma from that show and all girlish to being super jaded. She chain smoked, dropped a lot of N bombs in a way that made people uncomfortable, had some new, strong opinions and really just didn't want to even.
Over time she lightened up again but she got cured of her liberalism. Mind you she was relatively sheltered before going but man, you'd thought she'd come back from the 'Nam or something.
I'm just saying there are people who vote with nothing to lose and don't work and they count the same as being who are killing themselves trying to get by. And it's not fair.
Not that Marvin Miltote with the spotted lung has to join the Mobile Infantry
I wish we could be like Starship Troopers where you have to do two or three years of some kind of hard service before you're allowed to vote.
No thanks, I'm against any scheme that requires anything more than age and citizenship. Folks talk of freedom and liberty and think they can achieve it by adding restrictions, regulations and bureaucracy.
Serious question.
Why should a non-property owning, non-serving non-taxpaying 18 year old who was born by chance in this country's vote count as much as someone who has a lot to lose?
Teenagers are stupid. I know. I was one.
Freedom and liberty are kind of exclusive to making decisions that affect all of us.
Look up Lena Dunham's video on voting. She equates it to a sexual experience and rambles on about nothing but entitlement.
These people have nothing to lose and their vote counts.
Perhaps I'm colored by life a bit, but I have no faith in mere age of majority or being birthed on American soil as sole justification to decide who leads a country I have to live in.
I just think people should know what there is to lose by entrusting authority to someone who was a 'rockstar' or promised the most free stuff (that you, my friend, are paying for).
In light of Iran, Obamacare, civil unrest, and blatant malfeasance; you still think being merely 18 and American is enough?
I respectfully disagree, sir
Agree 100%. No mandatory service. I'd be ok with you don't pay taxes: you don't vote. You receive tax benefits (welfare, WIC, etc..): you don't vote
Of course the fact that most military families take advantage of WIC when they have kids leaves them out.
I'm for mandatory national service, it doesn't have to be military, it just has to have structure and responsibility.
Let's be honest, MOST, not all 18 - 20 year-olds are not prepared to be out on their own in a productive manner, many have never really been held accountable for anything or really done anything to help anyone but themselves. Two years of structured service, would do us well to develop our future as a Nation.
As a young one, even though I was a wise ass and had a strongly developed sense of right and wrong, I had no self-confidence. I had been placed in advanced placement classes, based on test scores, and did not perform, 5 out of 7 on the grade scale. The Marines changed my outlook and my life.
I don't think we could or should make it retroactive, but, yeah, I'd be okay with folks having to earn the right to vote. Spend two-years in the Peace Corps, caring for babies in an orphanage, working in an Alzheimer's unit, building stuff, or being a soldier, it would all be the same.
Having said all that, I'd just like to point out that Atlas Shrugged and Starship Troopers are fictional books, you guys knew that, right?
MountainRaven
08-27-15, 20:51
So the football player from Gang Banger High gets to vote but the kid who majored in economic and knows he'd never survive military service can't vote.
In Starship Troopers, if you wanted to serve, you got to serve. It was a Constitutionally guaranteed right. It doesn't matter what your physical or mental capacities are, no matter what your age, if you want to serve, the government has to find you something to do. If you are unfit for infantry service or for any military service, you would not be made to do so. In fact, it might not even be an option offered to you.
Johnny Rico got MI because his aptitude tests showed that he would be best suited for the MI or for K9s - and the guy responsible for seeing if he was well suited for K9s decided that he lacked sufficient love of dogs to be able to perform his duties as a K9 handler with acceptable proficiency. (And the MI training reads like a combination of early WWII USMC training - where the first thing recruits did was build their training camp in the middle of, say, a swamp - and Ranger School, SAS/SFOD-D training, &c.)
And apart from voting (and access to certain jobs - such as law enforcement and the highest public office in the land - if memory serves, no service was required to become a politician, and no one who is actively serving may hold political office: civil authority is still superior to the military), those who have served enjoy no greater rights than those who have not.
The philosophy of the idea being that because voting is an exercise of force against those who politically disagree with you, it should be reserved for those who have shown that they are willing to put the good of the community before their own personal good. Meaning that you are more likely to vote where you believe it is your duty and conscience to vote and not merely for self-enrichment - to weed out those who would vote for free iPhones in favor of those who would vote for what direction they genuinely believe the country should head in.
In Starship Troopers, if you wanted to serve, you got to serve. It was a Constitutionally guaranteed right. It doesn't matter what your physical or mental capacities are, no matter what your age, if you want to serve, the government has to find you something to do. If you are unfit for infantry service or for any military service, you would not be made to do so. In fact, it might not even be an option offered to you.
Johnny Rico got MI because his aptitude tests showed that he would be best suited for the MI or for K9s - and the guy responsible for seeing if he was well suited for K9s decided that he lacked sufficient love of dogs to be able to perform his duties as a K9 handler with acceptable proficiency. (And the MI training reads like a combination of early WWII USMC training - where the first thing recruits did was build their training camp in the middle of, say, a swamp - and Ranger School, SAS/SFOD-D training, &c.)
And apart from voting (and access to certain jobs - such as law enforcement and the highest public office in the land - if memory serves, no service was required to become a politician, and no one who is actively serving may hold political office: civil authority is still superior to the military), those who have served enjoy no greater rights than those who have not.
The philosophy of the idea being that because voting is an exercise of force against those who politically disagree with you, it should be reserved for those who have shown that they are willing to put the good of the community before their own personal good. Meaning that you are more likely to vote where you believe it is your duty and conscience to vote and not merely for self-enrichment - to weed out those who would vote for free iPhones in favor of those who would vote for what direction they genuinely believe the country should head in.
I actually read the book a long time ago. And while there are merits to the notion, I'm not 100% convinced it is the best option in practice.
Nearly every political philosophy sounds great on paper, it in the application where it is abused and the citizens suffer. For example, communist philosophy and notions of "utopia" all sound wonderful. The whole "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" sounds like a great system. Everybody contributes to the best of their ability and everybody shares in the benefit. The problem is everyone imagines themselves being a teacher, writer or artist as their contribution and the state is always in greater need of factory workers, garbagemen and sewer workers. The other problem is that as soon as the state exists above the citizens, it is always abused by those in power regardless of who is actually put in charge. Utopia is never achieved because some form of class system will always exist even if it is the stated enemy of the political system.
By contrast, philosophically capitalism seems like a brutally harsh system that rigidly defines social standing based upon those who have the "capital" to benefit under the system. But in practice, it is one of the most beneficial systems with the greatest opportunities for those, even in the lower classes. There are fewer guarantees, but more possibilities.
So as much as I like Heinlein, I'm not convinced the government model from ST is the best idea.
Serious question.
Why should a non-property owning, non-serving non-taxpaying 18 year old who was born by chance in this country's vote count as much as someone who has a lot to lose?
Teenagers are stupid. I know. I was one.
Why should they automatically have the right to own a gun? Why should they automatically have the right to free speech, expression and religion?
It's not a perfect system, there are flaws, but it's still probably better than most alternatives. If you feel locked out by establishment politics now, wait until you have to do something to qualify for the right to participate. You will find "qualifying" about as simple as getting a truly beneficial life insurance policy. Once you allow anyone else to determine who can participate, you can pretty much forget it unless you are wealthy or have strong political connections.
Steyr, you've brought up a good point.
I think rights are endowed and inalienable but I think duty is earned.
I actually sort of miss poll taxes and literacy tests. Call it arrogance but I'm afraid it's disenfranchising to know that no matter how hard you work and save, they do a bus run to the 'jects to make sure I have to pay for others come election time. I refuse to not vote but it never does any good.
How about instead of punishing the constituents, we punish the politicians.
I believe it should be stipulated that if you want to introduce a bill or legislation....that if you really believe that it is good for the country that you should have to get beaten on live TV by Meth head bikers and smegma crazies. It would be humane that they can't kill you and EMS would be standing by, but you should be crippled and maimed. Like bone jutting out on CSpan and orbital sockets ruptured.
Because it would be a sacrifice to show that you believe strongly in your law that others will have to suffer under. Don't want to do that? Don't write any laws. Just coast, vote present, and keep the roads paved.
But the reality is that as long as you have a hashtag, as long as anybody 18 and up can vote, and as long as people just do whatever then all we can do is grump about the good old days that will never return.
Because prosperity breeds locusts. And that's just it.
I would love to live a carefree life of freedom and personal gratification. But sadly, people in government think that my money really isn't mine, that nobody should enjoy personal arms, that I owe people I don't know and don't care about, and for some arcane reason my tax dollars get dumped into worthless countries to feed and medicate people that I don't care about.
Play all the Sarah Macachlan you want. Screw those people. They can either overthrow their dictatorships, grow a garden, or starve.
So, I guess I have nothing further to add other than I have some strong...perhaps resentful...opinions that don't matter because my vote doesn't matter. I live in a blue part of a Confederate state. Whatevers going to happen is going to happen. My vote is always destroyed every election year. The rest of the state picks up the slack. But even then the pedigree of politicians these days is abhorrent.
Coke vs Pepsi. Guess what? Both taste like malt battery acid and it's almost a race to pander to the lowest common denominator.
So....just start up the Daria theme song because it's just cynicism at this point.
So...I'm a small man and I don't have the answers. So in frustration yeah...I sorta wish Starship Troopers and Atlas Shrugged were guidebooks.
Or Jack London. Or hell I just wish kids actually read these days.
So...yeah.
Steyr, you've brought up a good point.
I think rights are endowed and inalienable but I think duty is earned.
I actually sort of miss poll taxes and literacy tests. Call it arrogance but I'm afraid it's disenfranchising to know that no matter how hard you work and save, they do a bus run to the 'jects to make sure I have to pay for others come election time. I refuse to not vote but it never does any good.
No matter how good your intentions, if you make changes to the rules, they will never come out as you imagined them. They typically will become your worst case scenario imagined or not, those in power will always manipulate any change to their advantage.
Just look at Obamacare. They presented it as if it would be somehow "free" and either employer provided, covered by income tax or in some other way funded by the wealthiest 1% of America and we got enough stupid people who were willing to DEMAND it secure in the belief that it would be free or almost free.
And now people are REQUIRED to purchase health care, and often without any considerable savings combined with a loss of personalized coverage. This is something they could have simply done without Obama. Those who can't afford it, could have simply purchased a service they can't afford. Those who literally don't have the money for it, will simply be fined as insult to injury. They will pay to fund Obamacare even though they don't even have any coverage at all.
Right about now you are probably thinking this is the perfect example of what you are talking about and how a nation of retards get us into one mess after another simply because somebody promises them "free shit." And to a large degree it's a valid point.
But imagine you had to qualify for voting. You being a reasonable person probably think things like military or public service will be the qualifiers. But that's unlikely and doesn't benefit those in power, in fact it limits the ability of those in power to retain their power and gain more money. So qualifiers to participate in the voting process will more likely be the same as those necessary to qualify for welfare, food stamps or section 8 housing.
After all those are the people most in need of government representation. It would be a nightmare and overnight the average working homeowner would find out he doesn't qualify to vote because he is "too well off" and doesn't need to exert any more political influence than he already does. You would see affirmative action based voting where votes from "preferred groups" carry three times the weight of any vote you and I may get.
Poll taxes would be based upon need. The FSA would vote for free, you and I would have to pay 2% of the value of our home. Think about how much we get screwed when it comes to property taxes compared to the FSA living in section 8 housing, essentially for free in our neighborhoods and not having to pay any property taxes.
Literacy tests? Hope you are fluent in Spanish and Ebonics. Literacy tests will be nothing more than a test of how culturally diverse you are.
Just remember when McDonalds started it was actually a pretty good burger. Nobody imagines a good thing turning to shit in only a few generations.
......
I'm actually really, really depressed now and regret discussing this topic. At our core, we agree that it won't get better.
I remember back in '08...seeing the numbers, the disbelief, the stupid teenyboppers waving Soviet flags. And, mind you I'm a middle aged man now, but...for a moment I thought this old guy in a white suit with a grey whipple hairstyle and round spectacles with a sash around him proclaiming him to be The Wizard of the World would pop up and say "Oh dearest me, folks. This won't do." and he would miracle it all away.
No. Did not happen. So...man. Oh well.
Moose-Knuckle
08-28-15, 13:30
Story time: Knew this girl in college. She was real hippie dippie. Well...she joined the Peace Corps. She was a cute little thing although I simply couldn't talk politics with her (and I was far from political, still am). So she's going on and on about the Peace Corps.
Well, they shipped her off to Africa.
I see her again a year or so later and she is a radically different person. She went from being like Dharma from that show and all girlish to being super jaded. She chain smoked, dropped a lot of N bombs in a way that made people uncomfortable, had some new, strong opinions and really just didn't want to even.
Over time she lightened up again but she got cured of her liberalism. Mind you she was relatively sheltered before going but man, you'd thought she'd come back from the 'Nam or something.
I will preface this with the contemporary definition of a "racist": a person of European ancestry with a prejudice against people of African ancestry.
I say this from my own experience as my ex-wife is public school teacher and I remember the stories she would bring home from the older teachers.
The biggest “racists” one could ever hope to meet are older white public school teachers in urban school districts. These old women started out as young white liberal college students who were indoctrinated with the left and became card carrying radical members of the DNC. But after years of being cussed out, slapped, punched, kicked, spit on, sexually assaulted, having their tires slashed in the parking lot, et al. by their inner city students AND their legal guardians all the leftist feel good programing went out the window.
Moose-Knuckle
08-28-15, 13:39
Serious question.
Why should a non-property owning, non-serving non-taxpaying 18 year old who was born by chance in this country's vote count as much as someone who has a lot to lose?
Teenagers are stupid. I know. I was one.
Freedom and liberty are kind of exclusive to making decisions that affect all of us.
Look up Lena Dunham's video on voting. She equates it to a sexual experience and rambles on about nothing but entitlement.
These people have nothing to lose and their vote counts.
Perhaps I'm colored by life a bit, but I have no faith in mere age of majority or being birthed on American soil as sole justification to decide who leads a country I have to live in.
I just think people should know what there is to lose by entrusting authority to someone who was a 'rockstar' or promised the most free stuff (that you, my friend, are paying for).
In light of Iran, Obamacare, civil unrest, and blatant malfeasance; you still think being merely 18 and American is enough?
I respectfully disagree, sir
You are spot on and I'm tracking.
There was a reason why the Founding Fathers made it so only land owners could cast a vote, but that was sexist and racist so now we have the utopia that we do.
At the least in order to be able to vote one should have to pay taxes, are gainfully employed or be financially independent, if not own land at least pay on a mortgage, own an automobile not simply rent one or two from a creditor, not receive one cent of government handouts (EBT, Section 8, WIC, etc.), owe government students loans, parents have to be born here or are themselves naturalized US citizens, so on and so forth.
It's kind of like the members of Congress who get to vote for their own pay raises . . . who wouldn't vote yah on increasing their own income!?
Serious question.
Why should a non-property owning, non-serving non-taxpaying 18 year old who was born by chance in this country's vote count as much as someone who has a lot to lose?
Teenagers are stupid. I know. I was one.
Freedom and liberty are kind of exclusive to making decisions that affect all of us.
Look up Lena Dunham's video on voting. She equates it to a sexual experience and rambles on about nothing but entitlement.
These people have nothing to lose and their vote counts.
Perhaps I'm colored by life a bit, but I have no faith in mere age of majority or being birthed on American soil as sole justification to decide who leads a country I have to live in.
I just think people should know what there is to lose by entrusting authority to someone who was a 'rockstar' or promised the most free stuff (that you, my friend, are paying for).
In light of Iran, Obamacare, civil unrest, and blatant malfeasance; you still think being merely 18 and American is enough?
I respectfully disagree, sir
You are spot on and I'm tracking.
There was a reason why the Founding Fathers made it so only land owners could cast a vote, but that was sexist and racist so now we have the utopia that we do.
At the least in order to be able to vote one should have to pay taxes, are gainfully employed or be financially independent, if not own land at least pay on a mortgage, own an automobile not simply rent one or two from a creditor, not receive one cent of government handouts (EBT, Section 8, WIC, etc.), owe government students loans, parents have to be born here or are themselves naturalized US citizens, so on and so forth.
It's kind of like the members of Congress who get to vote for their own pay raises . . . who wouldn't vote yah on increasing their own income!?
So then, what y'all are suggesting is a class system for voting? What will you do with Selective Service if you increase the voting age and remove a "teenager's" eligibility to vote.
The fundamental reason a representative republic is better than a true democracy is that the great unwashed masses are just not qualified to decide on the direction of a nation.
I think that requiring at least a high school diploma or equivalent should be a reasonable first step. Add on a civics and history test and make it at least as hard as taking a driving test to get your license.
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Moose-Knuckle
08-29-15, 18:56
What will you do with Selective Service if you increase the voting age and remove a "teenager's" eligibility to vote.
I for one would require that females have to register for Selective Service, it is sexist that they don't besides their earning Ranger tabs these days. But when was the last time we had a draft, Vietnam?
Moose-Knuckle
08-29-15, 18:57
The fundamental reason a representative republic is better than a true democracy is that the great unwashed masses are just not qualified to decide on the direction of a nation.
I think that requiring at least a high school diploma or equivalent should be a reasonable first step. Add on a civics and history test and make it at least as hard as taking a driving test to get your license.
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At this point I'd be happy with proof of US citizenship, no felony convictions (violent crimes), and a freaking IQ test lol.
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