View Full Version : Astigmatism with certain rifle scopes - help
Help me understand whats going on, and what scope I should buy.
I have an Aimpoint H1, and I get the "cluster of grape" effect if im not careful about focusing on my target. However, I do not seem to experience this when looking at my buddies EoTech.
Now, i'm shopping for a scope for my SPR today and decided to stop by Gander Mountain to look at some scopes just for fun. I would like a Nightforce NXS 2.5-10 or a Vortex PST 2.5-10, but naturally they had neither. So I looked at the Leupold VRX Patrol, 3-9. Horrible "cluster of grapes" look when looking at the red dot in the TMR reticle. I next looked at a Trijicon Accupoint 3-9 with the Triangle Post reticle (green). It was perfectly clear.
Why is this, and am I going to experience this astigmatism issue if I chose a PST or NXS?
I have astigmatism as well, pretty bad. Mostly, I had always bought cheaper red dots, and they all had the grape cluster going on. I attributed to cheap sights. However, I got an eotech at a good deal. It was insane, totally fuzzy all around. Sold it pretty quick. Never had an aimpoints. I do have a trijicon tripower I've had for some time now. With the fiber optic, it is perfect. If I turn up the battery function too high, I can get it to become barely fuzzy, nowhere near as bad as a regular red dot or the eotech. I haven't gotten to use an acog, but have looked through a few. They are also perfect. The tripower stays perfect no matter how bright on the fiber optic, even in the brightest sunlight.
I do have a Leupold AR patrol with lighted dot in the center. It's pretty good, if I keep it down near minimum required brightness. Mostly, I leave it off.
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ColtSeavers
08-28-15, 23:37
You're going to want a scope with an adjustable ocular lense to compensate for your astigmatism as well as an etched reticle to be able to more clearly define edges with the focus. Traditional and prismatic scopes typically have these features. Any scope with a lit reticle can and probably will still bloom or at least bleed a little when on at higher brighness settings though.
ETA: My Leupolds, Redfield, Primary Arms 3x compact prismatic scope and Vortex Spitfire AR 1x prismatic are perfectly clear and defined thanks to their etched reticles and ability to adjust the ocular lense. The Primary Arms 3x bleeds a bit when on a higher settings.
My first only red dot, Bushnell TRS-25 from way back when, is a star no matter what i do with it.
You could get prescription shooting glasses. That would allow you to decide on what optic best suits your uses instead of which reticle you can see better.
Are you keeping both eyes open when you view the red dots? Are you focusing on a distant object and not the dot? Those two things will help.
With a red dot you can look through your rear BUIS which will clear up the dot some.
It's going to bother you to some degree with any optic.
Most astigmatism is completely correctable with corrective lenses that are prescribed by a competent optometrist and ground by a competent lab. Note that your typical "1-hour glasses while U wait" shop in the mall doesn't fall into that category, nor do most internet eyeglass places.
LASIK or PRK also can completely correct most astigmatism.
Help me understand whats going on, and what scope I should buy.
I have an Aimpoint H1, and I get the "cluster of grape" effect if im not careful about focusing on my target. However, I do not seem to experience this when looking at my buddies EoTech.
Now, i'm shopping for a scope for my SPR today and decided to stop by Gander Mountain to look at some scopes just for fun. I would like a Nightforce NXS 2.5-10 or a Vortex PST 2.5-10, but naturally they had neither. So I looked at the Leupold VRX Patrol, 3-9. Horrible "cluster of grapes" look when looking at the red dot in the TMR reticle. I next looked at a Trijicon Accupoint 3-9 with the Triangle Post reticle (green). It was perfectly clear.
Why is this, and am I going to experience this astigmatism issue if I chose a PST or NXS?
I had a R1 when Midway was blowing them out. I dumped it and went back to a carrying handle rear sight for two reasons. I keep the patrol Car so frigging cold that when I had to pull it out on a call the thing fogged up and took ten or so minutes to clear. The second one is I have the same problems with my vision. The second reason is what drove the dumping of the R1. While it was nice I sure didn't want to be in front of a jury trying to explain that.
Dan
You're going to want a scope with an adjustable ocular lense to compensate for your astigmatism as well as an etched reticle to be able to more clearly define edges with the focus. Traditional and prismatic scopes typically have these features. Any scope with a lit reticle can and probably will still bloom or at least bleed a little when on at higher brighness settings though.
ETA: My Leupolds, Redfield, Primary Arms 3x compact prismatic scope and Vortex Spitfire AR 1x prismatic are perfectly clear and defined thanks to their etched reticles and ability to adjust the ocular lense. The Primary Arms 3x bleeds a bit when on a higher settings.
My first only red dot, Bushnell TRS-25 from way back when, is a star no matter what i do with it.
Good advice. My understanding is Nightforce scopes have an etched reticle, whereas the Vortex PSTs do not...?
You could get prescription shooting glasses. That would allow you to decide on what optic best suits your uses instead of which reticle you can see better.
Are you keeping both eyes open when you view the red dots? Are you focusing on a distant object and not the dot? Those two things will help.
With a red dot you can look through your rear BUIS which will clear up the dot some.
It's going to bother you to some degree with any optic.
I close one eye, and yes i'm focusing on the target and not the dot. I don't want really want glasses - but i'd consider getting contacts.
Most astigmatism is completely correctable with corrective lenses that are prescribed by a competent optometrist and ground by a competent lab. Note that your typical "1-hour glasses while U wait" shop in the mall doesn't fall into that category, nor do most internet eyeglass places.
LASIK or PRK also can completely correct most astigmatism.
I may end up trying contacts, but i'd really rather not using corrective lenses if I can avoid it.
I had a R1 when Midway was blowing them out. I dumped it and went back to a carrying handle rear sight for two reasons. I keep the patrol Car so frigging cold that when I had to pull it out on a call the thing fogged up and took ten or so minutes to clear. The second one is I have the same problems with my vision. The second reason is what drove the dumping of the R1. While it was nice I sure didn't want to be in front of a jury trying to explain that.
Dan
Ha, I understand where you are coming from. I also deploy my rifle from my front seat - but i've only had my H1 fog up in the most humid months, and when I have the AC on high. Fortunately I have a QD mount for my aimpoint and flip up BUIS that I can use (havent had to yet).
HighSpeedDreams
08-29-15, 23:55
Haley Strategics quickly touches on the issue as it pertains to the new Trijicon MRO Optic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3XyEHSKKRE
Starts @ 2:10
I may end up trying contacts, but i'd really rather not using corrective lenses if I can avoid it.
If you don't correct the astigmatism then your only option is to limit your optics choices to scopes where you can control the eyepiece focus on the second focal plane. Your classic red dot sights such as from Eotech or Aimpoint will remain a no-go.
Most astigmatism is completely correctable with corrective lenses that are prescribed by a competent optometrist and ground by a competent lab. Note that your typical "1-hour glasses while U wait" shop in the mall doesn't fall into that category, nor do most internet eyeglass places.
LASIK or PRK also can completely correct most astigmatism.
^^^^ this! I have profound myopia, astigmatism, and presbyopia.
Been wearing specs for 55+ years. Aimpoint dot is exactly that - a pinpoint dot.
Corrective lenses are a PITA, but they do improve your vision!!!!! YMMV
john
Worn corrective lenses for over 40 yrs. At one time I went to the "glasses in one hour" places, but stopped yrs ago.
Looked into lasik, not an option. Vision too bad, cornea part too thin. Was told the improvement would be so slight as to almost not be noticeable.
Mostly what traditional red dots do is become sort of a compressed oval, or a short line with rounded ends.
This wouldn't be a huge deal, except it's usually canted somewhere around 15 degrees.
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I had LASIK surgery in 2004 for nearsightness and astigmatism. The surgery went well, however afterwards I developed starbursts. RDS are completely unusable. Last week I looked at the Accupoint. The reticle was sharp with no starburst.
I might be that those of us with vision problems are limited to Trijicons.
lifebreath
09-04-15, 11:05
Ditto good corrective lenses. I've got pretty severe astigmatism and use Aimpoints and EOTechs with no problem.
I suggest you go the contact route until you can go for lasik. I'm going through the same thing. The nice thing about contacts is I can wear whatever sunglasses I want, I don't get any fogging of my glasses going from inside to out and back; which happens here in Florida. I will eventually get lasik just need book a consultation.
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The root cause to the problem you're "seeing" is t the scope, reticle, focus ... It's your eye. Some scope designs don't highlight the issue as much as others. Until you correct the eye you're bandaid-ing stuff and after a bit of time the band aid falls off. Depending on the severity of your astigmatism contacts may not be sufficient. I have very little astigmatism but contacts don't cut it, while glasses do. It all depends on your eye and how it interacts with the crap you stick on it. As a warning; contacts are great till you get some crap in your eye. Then they are a PITA.
Go see an optometrist and see where you stand.
I wore contacts for a pretty long time, about two decades ago.
Vision was getting worse every year, started with glasses at 7. Reached a point where contacts had to be torics, they are special made for astigmatism, and don't rotate like regular ones will. Fitting is a real pita. They were very expensive. Next step was daily only.
Went back to glasses.
Had problems several times, usually something metal piercing the contact and getting lodged in the cornea. Once, got some bacteria from a river under it, got infected and the contact fused to my eye.
Both have same solution, drilling the cornea.
So, cannot go back to contacts. They are aware of my astigmatism, and the lenses are supposed to be cut for it, not getting "quickie" glasses. Vision too bad, and cornea too thin for lasik.
Guess at least I can stop buying red dots.
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Funny that this thread popped up when it did. I'm trying to put something lighter weight on a SBR. I tried my RMR Dual and the dot looks like grapes. My EOTech with the 1 MOA dot looks good but is too bulky.
I've been wanting to try a Vortex prism scope. I've looked through the 1x & 3x and they appear perfectly clear. The Spitfire AR 1x is slated to be discontinued by Vortex. You will start to find these slashed to dealer pricing around $200. Cabelas already has them online for that price.
I will be going to a real eye Doc next time too not a quickie place. Hopefully that will help too.
XD40Colorado
09-05-15, 11:06
I have a Trijicon tr24 and tr25. Both are crystal clear.
As others have already stated, you want an etched reticle.
I wore contacts for a pretty long time, about two decades ago.
Vision was getting worse every year, started with glasses at 7. Reached a point where contacts had to be torics, they are special made for astigmatism, and don't rotate like regular ones will. Fitting is a real pita. They were very expensive. Next step was daily only.
Went back to glasses.
Had problems several times, usually something metal piercing the contact and getting lodged in the cornea. Once, got some bacteria from a river under it, got infected and the contact fused to my eye.
Both have same solution, drilling the cornea.
So, cannot go back to contacts. They are aware of my astigmatism, and the lenses are supposed to be cut for it, not getting "quickie" glasses. Vision too bad, and cornea too thin for lasik.
Guess at least I can stop buying red dots.
Your particular situation notwithstanding, statistically, the risks and complications to one's vision is greater with contact lenses than it is with LASIK or PRK.
Depending partially on age, phakik intraocular lens implantation is potentially an excellent alternative to LASIK/PRK for vision/astigmatism correction, with a lower complication rate. Corneal thickness and other such abnormalities don't matter in that case.
.
ColtSeavers
09-05-15, 15:06
Funny that this thread popped up when it did. I'm trying to put something lighter weight on a SBR. I tried my RMR Dual and the dot looks like grapes. My EOTech with the 1 MOA dot looks good but is too bulky.
I've been wanting to try a Vortex prism scope. I've looked through the 1x & 3x and they appear perfectly clear. The Spitfire AR 1x is slated to be discontinued by Vortex. You will start to find these slashed to dealer pricing around $200. Cabelas already has them online for that price.
Are you talking about the brand new model Spitfire AR 1x with DRT reticle Vortex just released last year or the older model it replaced that shared the same body as their 3x as well as Burris' AR332 and the some Primary Arms and others?
I just got the new Spitfire AR 1x DRT and I agree it's a great prism scope, and is actually a bit lighter than all the other comparable ones to boot.
New model:
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-spitfire-1x-prism-scope-with-drt-moa-reticle
http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/ps_spitfire_1x_ar-t.jpg
I have been a buy glasses on the cheap guy for years. So if I switch to a real eye doctor for some well made specs what terminology do I use when discussing this issue? I am fairly confident if I say my Aimpoint looks like a cluster of grapes and not a sharp red dot the doctor will look at me confusingly. TIA for any tips.
ColtSeavers
09-05-15, 20:45
I have been a buy glasses on the cheap guy for years. So if I switch to a real eye doctor for some well made specs what terminology do I use when discussing this issue? I am fairly confident if I say my Aimpoint looks like a cluster of grapes and not a sharp red dot the doctor will look at me confusingly. TIA for any tips.
Tell the Doc that street lights, traffic lights and/or car lights look like starbursts or a cluster of grapes.
Your particular situation notwithstanding, statistically, the risks and complications to one's vision is greater with contact lenses than it is with LASIK or PRK.
Depending partially on age, phakik intraocular lens implantation is potentially an excellent alternative to LASIK/PRK for vision/astigmatism correction, with a lower complication rate. Corneal thickness and other such abnormalities don't matter in that case.
.
Yeah, I get the contact danger. You basically have a piece of plastic over your cornea (I know, oversimplification). It has the distinct possibility of holding something to get your eye infected, or something to scratch it. Plus, the risks of constantly sticking your fingers in your eyes.
My particular situation was working in industrial machine shops, and later a job out on a river working on power line tower bases. More risk than probably the average person.
Never heard of the implantation thing. Is that similar to the cornea implant to correct cataracts? If so, from my understanding, insurance typically won't cover it unless you actually have cataracts.
I don't have that kind of change.
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Yeah, I get the contact danger. You basically have a piece of plastic over your cornea (I know, oversimplification). It has the distinct possibility of holding something to get your eye infected, or something to scratch it. Plus, the risks of constantly sticking your fingers in your eyes.
My particular situation was working in industrial machine shops, and later a job out on a river working on power line tower bases. More risk than probably the average person.
Never heard of the implantation thing. Is that similar to the cornea implant to correct cataracts? If so, from my understanding, insurance typically won't cover it unless you actually have cataracts.
I don't have that kind of change.
Lens implant, not cornea, but yeah, similar deal. Phakik IOL has nothing to do with cataracts, it's just a means of correcting vision without relying on an unsuitable cornea. And you're right, it would be very rare health insurance that covers any kind of vision correction surgery, whether LASIK, PRK, or phakik IOL.
Are you talking about the brand new model Spitfire AR 1x with DRT reticle Vortex just released last year or the older model it replaced that shared the same body as their 3x as well as Burris' AR332 and the some Primary Arms and others?
I just got the new Spitfire AR 1x DRT and I agree it's a great prism scope, and is actually a bit lighter than all the other comparable ones to boot.
New model:
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-spitfire-1x-prism-scope-with-drt-moa-reticle
http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/ps_spitfire_1x_ar-t.jpg
Yep, someone close to Vortex told me the 1x isn't selling like they hoped & is going out of production soon.
On sale now at Cabelas for $199.99. I really like it & want one before they are all gone.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/VORTEX-SPITFIRE-RED-DOT/1783390.uts
ColtSeavers
09-07-15, 09:36
Yep, someone close to Vortex told me the 1x isn't selling like they hoped & is going out of production soon.
On sale now at Cabelas for $199.99. I really like it & want one before they are all gone.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/VORTEX-SPITFIRE-RED-DOT/1783390.uts
That's a shame if true. Glad I got one at least.
Oh, well, looks like I'm stuck with the vision problems, at least for now.
On another note, today went shooting with a friend who has membership to a range with a 500 yds line, pretty rare around here.
Turns out, he has an aimpoint comp m4. I know, older unit. Anyway, it kind of stars for me. It's not a real star shape, kind of weird. Turning down merely dims the star, until it all disappears.
He also got a pistol with an rmr on it, the auto adjust led one. It's just kind of fuzzy. It's worse say, under a roof, and not quite as bad out in the sun.
The 22 I had to sight in, with the cheap bsa sweet 22 scope on it is perfectly clear, no illumination.
My 308 that needed sighting, with the Bushnell elite tactical is perfectly clear also, the whole h59 reticle. Also no illumination.
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