View Full Version : LEA's left and right seem to be ditching the M&P...what for?
Eurodriver
08-31-15, 15:54
I just learned from a buddy that Honolulu PD is replacing all of its M&Ps. A quick Google search shows many other large departments are or have followed suit (Texas DPS, for example) What's wrong with them? These things were touted as the next big thing (a "Glock Killer" (http://mp-pistol.com/mp-talk/724-m-p-glock-killer.html) ) when they were introduced but somehow they have failed to live up to the hype.
I was already heavily invested in Glocks, so I have limited experience with them and I am looking for insight. Regardless about your personal, potentially biased views on the M&P the facts are that several large departments have tossed the M&P after putting it into service for only a few short years. How can the bean counters justify that expense of taxpayer money without good cause?
Are LEA's just out blowing money needlessly playing with the newest toys they can find or are there serious shortcomings?
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-31-15, 16:30
I am not defending them, but big departments are dropping Glocks, HKs, SIGs, etc all the time. I always figured the new chief just owed some kickbacks to somebody.
The company that made a department's current issue sidearm is not always low bidder when service pistols are replaced.
Guns-up.50
08-31-15, 16:51
Keep in mind many cops and agencies are not gun guys so to speak. So more often then not these decisions are based on price, and popularity, and past exp.
Iowa State Patrol seemed to have durability problems on initial issue and that morphed into some problems for some command staff and others.
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2015/05/08/iowa-agency-returns-800-handguns-from-contract-under-review/26978881/
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2015/06/25/iowa-state-patrol-officials-handgun-contract-transfer/29297767/
and
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/editorials/2015/08/04/gun-smith-wesson-state-patrol-public-safety/31145037/
Anytime a governmental unit spends money, there's politics involved. Not defending the M&P...I had one and didn't like it at all (crappy trigger and inaccurate barrel), but purchasing decisions are made with quality and performance only as secondary goals.
I think it's also along the lines of the old adage, make a good product and people will tell 10 of their friends. Make a bad product and they'll tell 1,000. You don't hear of the many PD that have no issues and keep their M&P, which I suspect a far larger % of those changing over to something else. When you factor in performance/quality secondary to purchase considerations, especially for larger PDs, and other factors, hearing of a PD changing over does not help decision making one way or another. Unlike other companies we can name (who blamed serious problems on "user error"), S&W does tend to listen to feedback, and each gen has gotten better, and S&W is well known for making it right if problems arise in most cases.
I still prefer my VP9 :cool:
From what I just heard is that they are replacing the M&Ps with Glocks and slating the M&Ps for destruction. Not sale, up and destroying them.
Now, I have my personal opinions of the M&P platform, but will leave that as a personal opinion. But any department that is willing to up and shitcan over half a million in firearms has its head up its ass, I am sorry. Even if they sold them used as half what they paid for them they are still completely wasting money, and here I thought budgets were tight? :suicide:
Everyone seems to be afraid of liability issues these days.
Much of the time today the distributor or manufacturer takes the agency's old weapons in trade. One local agency was looking at switch and got weapon, holsters, mag pouch, and light for $150.00 per set with their weapons in trade.
At one point some agencies were getting into the updated version of the manufacturer's weapon for almost straight across, I assume the profit was made reselling the trade in weapons.
Reference M&P, there were some magazine issues that got a lot of publicity, and then the accuracy thing. Here locally, the M&P really never took off. Worked with 18 new officers from various agencies today on the range - 15 Glocks, 2 Sigs, 1 M&P.
titsonritz
08-31-15, 19:56
I still prefer my VP9 :cool:
The new and improved "Glock killer".
Is it me or does this reek of glock trolling....
Either way I could give two algores who drops the M&P, just like that silly AR chart everyone used to harp on it's BS.
I've only had 2 M&Ps both were dead solid perfect for thousands of rounds. My shield keeps on ticking at around 5k now...not 25k I know, but for 360 bucks it's hard to argue with.
As for real pistols I'd dumped the striker junk and moved to Sig and CZ.
FWIW...HPD has never used the M&P. They used S&W 5906s replaced with G17GEN4s. Its the 5906s that are being destroyed, to include around 200 NIB never issued. I didn't notice the model number in the article but can assure you its not M&Ps.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08/31/anti-gun-stupidity-honolulu-destroys-575g-worth-police-firearms/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu_Police_Department#Duty_Weapons
Bluedreaux
09-01-15, 07:56
From what I just heard is that they are replacing the M&Ps with Glocks and slating the M&Ps for destruction. Not sale, up and destroying them.
Who is doing that?
Who is doing that?
Honoluau pd from what i read. There is a thread on it somewhere.
Bluedreaux
09-01-15, 08:03
The TXDPS fiasco with the M&P was nonsense. They repeatedly claimed that they found "movement of several microns" in their pistols or some such idiocy.
I doubt there's anyone working for TXDPS that has the mental ability to measure in microns, even if they did have the equipment.
0.00003937007874015748--That's the conversion of a micron to an inch.
The new and improved "Glock killer".
Never been a Glock fan so not that difficult to achieve for me.
Well, it must be something. It seems at my agency that any kind of large policy or equipment change is resisted at all costs.
I just learned from a buddy that Honolulu PD is replacing all of its M&Ps. A quick Google search shows many other large departments are or have followed suit (Texas DPS, for example) What's wrong with them? These things were touted as the next big thing (a "Glock Killer" (http://mp-pistol.com/mp-talk/724-m-p-glock-killer.html) ) when they were introduced but somehow they have failed to live up to the hype.
I was already heavily invested in Glocks, so I have limited experience with them and I am looking for insight. Regardless about your personal, potentially biased views on the M&P the facts are that several large departments have tossed the M&P after putting it into service for only a few short years. How can the bean counters justify that expense of taxpayer money without good cause?
Are LEA's just out blowing money needlessly playing with the newest toys they can find or are there serious shortcomings?
I wasn't aware it was such a trend. ATL PD also changed M&P to Glock, last year or so ago. It got covered pretty well on some forums. Issues and then company support was a thing.
But it seems to me about 4-5 years ago roundabouts, on this forum we were assured the M&P was going to eat up VAST swaths of Glock LE market share. Didn't pan out.
"You wanna be the champ, you gotta beat the champ."
Now the 320 or the VP9 are going to do the same thing. Maybe one of them will. The 320 is probably poised to do so more than the HK what with armorer support complexities of the more complex design et al. Maybe SOCOM is about to leave the Glock en masse too. Or maybe they already have! ;)
Nah. Glock has been brilliant in their marketing. They've become so entrenched in the law enforcement landscape that it represents an almost insurmountable lead over any newcomers despite the fact that all of those challengers are probably better firearms. A triumph of marketing over quality.
Well, before the Gen 4 issues came along, the Glock 17 was arguably the most reliable out-of-the-box pistol around.Of course, not that all Agencies used that particular model.
FWIW...HPD has never used the M&P. They used S&W 5906s replaced with G17GEN4s. Its the 5906s that are being destroyed, to include around 200 NIB never issued. I didn't notice the model number in the article but can assure you its not M&Ps.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08/31/anti-gun-stupidity-honolulu-destroys-575g-worth-police-firearms/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu_Police_Department#Duty_Weapons
This is not a fiscally responsible move and if I were a Honolulu resident I would be angry that my tax dollars were being wasted.
Well, before the Gen 4 issues came along, the Glock 17 was arguably the most reliable out-of-the-box pistol around.Of course, not that all Agencies used that particular model.
And Surf reported on these pages last year about how he was involved in fielding well over 1000 Gen 4 G17s in Hawaii with great results.
Maybe SOCOM is about to leave the Glock en masse too. Or maybe they already have! ;)
?????
Here's the thread for discussion of the Honolulu gun destruction: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?173220-Honolulu-destroys-575G-worth-of-police-firearms-(Article)
FWIW...HPD has never used the M&P. They used S&W 5906s replaced with G17GEN4s. Its the 5906s that are being destroyed, to include around 200 NIB never issued. I didn't notice the model number in the article but can assure you its not M&Ps.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08/31/anti-gun-stupidity-honolulu-destroys-575g-worth-police-firearms/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honolulu_Police_Department#Duty_Weapons
This ^^^^ the guns destroyed were rather old and tired S&W 5906's . It was still a waste of money but it's not unexpected given the extreme left lean of HI politics.
The TXDPS fiasco with the M&P was nonsense. They repeatedly claimed that they found "movement of several microns" in their pistols or some such idiocy.
I doubt there's anyone working for TXDPS that has the mental ability to measure in microns, even if they did have the equipment.
0.00003937007874015748--That's the conversion of a micron to an inch.
Here's the deal with TX DPS and the M&P's:
1) The primary reason for switching guns from the P226R DAK in 357 was not gun issues. It was a caliber switch from 357SSIG TO 9 millimeter driven by cost, logistics, and the improvements in 9 mm duty ammunition since the mid-1990s when the 357 SIG was adopted.
2) Many of the staff at the Dps Academy range, including the former unit commander or PPC competitors who had ongoing relationships with Smith and Wesson. The M&P was unilaterally selected by the Academy range staff without input from firearms instructors for troopers from the field. Supposedly the M&P 9 mm's T&E'ed by the Dps Academy staff worked great and did not show any of the accuracy issues associated with earlier M&P 9 mms.
3) The first basic recruit class of 2014 were the first DPS troopers to receive M&P 9 mms. During the firearms training for this recruit class the majority of the guns issued experienced reliability issues, specifically failures to extract and eject, rear sights drifting in the dovetail even with the set screw tightened down all the way and magazines ejecting from the guns during strings of fire. Strangely enough, given the M&P 9mm's history of accuracy issues none were noted. The accuracy was good when the guns worked. There were enough problems that the recruits were quickly retrained and qualified on the p226 in 357 prior to being sent out on the road.
4) early in 2015, Texas DPS held trials for selection of a new 9 mm handgun. This was an open solicitation and the testing staff included troopers and firearms instructors from the field as well as the Dps Academy staff. The Gen 4 Glock 17, the HK VP 9 and the SIG P320 FS All passed the requirements. The Smith & Wesson M and P and the Beretta PX for storm were among the guns tested which did not pass the requirements. There hasn't yet been a formal announcement, but rumor has it Dps will be going with the sick P320. This makes sense given Texas DPS has been and SIG agency ever since giving up revolvers 20+ years ago.
For whatever reason it seems the 9 mm and 357 versions of the M&P have been the most problematic. The agencies using the 40 and 45 caliber versions have had good service. For example, here in central Texas the two largest municipal police departments, San Antonio PD and Austin PD both transitioned from Gen 3 Glock 40s to the M&P 40 witjout any widespread issues.SA PD has approximately 2000 officers, Austin is a bit smaller but I believe they also have over 1000 officers.
jbourneidentity
09-01-15, 19:15
Just throwing this out there based on what I've seen...
I'm a cop and now full-time LE trainer at a police academy. When I left the street 7 years ago, the M&P was making steady gains in LE holsters in my home state of Arkansas. In the last few years; however, that has almost stopped completely. We train approximately 120 officers each year and 95% use Glocks in .40, but the 9mm, and particularly .45, are making huge in-roads. The M&P has gone the way of the 8 track tape. Finding one in an LE holster here is like finding a unicorn. The remaining 5% is occupied by the Sig Sauer P-series handguns. XDs haven't been represented in several months.
I think many officers initially wanted to be loyal to S&W as an American company, and so for a short time, they tried the M&P, but the design's gritty and inconsistent trigger, along with the terrible 9mm FS accuracy and barrel issues, it just died on the vine. Plus, Glock has wisely advertised in magazines and social media how many hundreds of thousands of dollars they donate to American LE charities, and they are now manufacturing guns in the States, so officers have gravitated back toward the more established G22, G17, G21...Plus, when you factor in the well-publicized M&P failures with LE in TX and CA, it has helped killed interest in the pistol. As Ken Hackathorn famously said of the M&P problems, "S&W snatched defeat from the jaws of victory."
On the civilian side, I have a friend who owns a very successful pawn shop. He said that with the exception of the Shield, they can't give M&Ps away. Same thing with XDs. He said Glocks are his most consistent sellers by far.
CanineCombatives
09-01-15, 19:44
There you have it, as someone who has dipped a toe into the M&P waters also, I came away with one conclusion; no thanks.
I'm really pretty surprised to hear this. I have always recommended M&P to people who aren't particularly into Glocks, and I've never personally had any kind of issues with one, although granted through a significantly smaller sample size. Guess I'm going to have to start telling people Glock-way or the highway....
CanineCombatives
09-01-15, 19:57
I'd point them to the P320
Dionysusigma
09-01-15, 21:14
After personal extensive experience with the GIII G17, M&P9, 92/M9A1, P220, and VP9, the M&P was far and away the least impressive. I can't say I blame anyone for moving past it - literally any of the others performed far better in the particular role of full-size duty pistol.
My agency is the largest in the state and we just dumped the M&P. Now we have a choice between Glock (17 or 21) and Sig (320, 226, 227). Nothing but problems with the M&P. Cost had nothing to do with it either as we buy our own pistols, they aren't supplied by the dept. From this point on I won't own anything with M&P on it..
Oklahoma HP just chose the Sig 320 for duty issue in 9mm.
Larry Vickers
09-02-15, 02:04
S&W does not have a great track record with auto loading service pistols and despite the fact the M&P had a lot of potential from a design and layout point of view S&W has failed to push that pistol to its full potential.
'Snatching defeat from the jaws of Victory' is how I have heard it described before and based on the numbers of M&P's I see in a typical class ( 1-2 in a class of 15 or so - compared to at least half the class shooting Glock's) I'd say S&W missed the bus
Apropos of nothing, I'd guess that quite a few of the early M&P sales came from agencies who ran Sigs and classic S&W's and not Glocks. I think that with Sig finally introducing a striker fired pistol they will take back a lot of those former agencies from S&W making this trend even worse.
My admin refused to go Glock for the decade I've worked here. Our P220's are being swapped out for P320's in .45 in Oct/Nov. I feel like a lot of agencies that bought M&P's wanted a striker fired gun that wasn't a Glock.
I own 3 Glocks (down from 5) so I'm not a hating on Glock I just know from experience that admin in some LEAs have worked their whole careers with dislike of Glocks, mostly for irrational reasons.
Gary1911A1
09-02-15, 09:18
I have owned 4 M&Ps'. Except for the one in .45 they were terrible in both 9MM and .40. Honestly I would of thought the Sigma would of taught S&W a few lessons, but apparently some people at S&W are asleep or just plain stupid.
Phillygunguy
09-02-15, 10:08
I had an m&p pro 9 mm and m&p 45
Could never get used to the spongey trigger on either.
Plus the magazine springs on the 45 sucked. I had rounds half way through the magazine get stuck. Swapped out the springs several times because they get bent
Sold them both never looked back
'Snatching defeat from the jaws of Victory' is how I have heard it described before and based on the numbers of M&P's I see in a typical class ( 1-2 in a class of 15 or so - compared to at least half the class shooting Glock's) I'd say S&W missed the bus
I don't think they missed the bus, they just shortened it by a lot.
For those willing to dump more money into what should be a working gun (basically 1911 types who want a double stack 9mm and don't balk at shoveling cash over to fix issues out of the box - more or less describes myself) the brilliance of the platform is the draw, but having to buy piles of Apex and 10-8Perf. parts out of the box to get the best out of them really leaves a lot of vacant seats.
I think the bean counter calculus fell on the side of getting big contracts by being under price for the package was the least risky approach to making sure the original R&D paid off, but I'd be a lot happier with a base gun that cost $100 brand new but didn't need as much work... but that gun wouldn't have gotten as many big LEA contracts early on.
The 'fleet stripper special' equivalent, to borrow car vernacular, kinda sucks for a lot of these reasons, and that's why I totally agree with the sentiments of that first part - it should have been a giant hit, just needed somebody in the upper echelon corporate decision making world to put faith in the engineering staff that they had gotten it right, and build a slightly pricier to make gun that nailed all the key tolerances the prototypes did.
brickboy240
09-03-15, 09:34
I still see most cops around here carrying Glocks.
Still, there is no reason to put up with the M&P when there are several other striker pistols out there that flat out run 100% out of the box. The Walther PPQ, HK VP-9, Glocks and now the SIG P320. Pick one and chances are it will be head and shoulders above the M&P.
S&W has a history of making some excellent d/a revolvers but their centerfire autos have always been lacking.
I still see most cops around here carrying Glocks.
Still, there is no reason to put up with the M&P when there are several other striker pistols out there that flat out run 100% out of the box. The Walther PPQ, HK VP-9, Glocks and now the SIG P320. Pick one and chances are it will be head and shoulders above the M&P.
S&W has a history of making some excellent d/a revolvers but their centerfire autos have always been lacking.
After shooting only the M&P for a year I actually said "wow" out loud when I shot the 320 for the first time. Being a duty gun we couldn't replace any parts in the M&P, the trigger basically felt like a sponge. The 320 is just the opposite, very crisp and 226 like. I'm happy with the switch, as are many other officers. It's nice they have the Glock as an option too for those that like that platform.
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