View Full Version : What is the real scoop on SAIGA and VEPR availability...
If I understand correctly SAIGA's were directly affected by the Obama EO. However, again, if I understand correctly, VEPR's were not effected but people thought they were and unscrupulous suppliers took advantage of the situation.
Now, there are SAIGA's being built in the US.
What I am trying to understand is why all the over hyped over priced baloney still going on?
If it is true that VEPR's were never affected in the first place and SAIGA's are now being made in the US, why does it seem like people are still claiming the sky is falling and charging an ultra premium?
TED
Izmash SAIGA's were affected by the Obama EO.
It's my understanding, that Molot VEPR's were not affected by the EO.
I do not know that there are Saiga's being built in the US. I do know that Kalashnikov USA is going to be making AK's in the US resembling Saiga's, but these having nothing to do with "Kalashnikov" except for the name. No one in the US is allowed to have any financial ties to any of the companies in the EO.
What I think you are seeing is legitimate Saiga's that are being still converted by companies here in the US today; although of questionable quality as far as the conversions go.
Remember: there was a lot of Saiga's that came into the US right before the EO, and anything that was already paid for in full was considered ok by customs.
The over hyped pricing and claims that the sky are falling are the same thing that happens over and over with gun salesman every time a ban gets mentioned. The only thing that changes is the new thing being banned. Look back at the threat of the M855 ban, the supposed ban on semi auto shotguns, and more.
"The over hyped pricing and claims that the sky are falling are the same thing that happens over and over with gun salesman every time a ban gets mentioned. The only thing that changes is the new thing being banned. Look back at the threat of the M855 ban, the supposed ban on semi auto shotguns, and more."
What is upsetting me is that people appear to be making statements that are not only false but that they know to be false.
I hear you
In the case of Saiga's; technically they are banned. From import that is. You can and still will be able to buy and own them for a while. That is assuming no AWB/confiscation etc. happens.
It's just the way they twist words. The average person that's not on top of most things gun related will walk into a gun store/gun show and hear that Russian AK's are banned. The guy behind the counter will tell them that's the last of the Russian AK's to ever be imported into the U.S. And Yeah it's true that there most likely won't be anymore Saiga's coming in, but the potential buyer probably won't know that there's a butt ton of them in the U.S. already.
They'll eventually go up in price, but I think unconverted Saiga's will top out at around $1k - $1.2k; like SA-85ms.
If you have a line on an SGL or any other quality Saiga conversion for about $1200 NIB then I'd say that's a fair price today. Assuming you're really set on buying a Saiga based AK. You shouldn't wait if you have the funds; now is the time to buy with elections coming up. But I really doubt it is the absolute last opportunity you'll ever have to buy one. Certainly don't give in and believe you have to drop $2k on it.
Like the others have said:
Technically:
No new saigas until EO is reversed, as these are made by Kalashnikov Concern.
Vepr is made by Molot and is not subject to EO, thus ok to keep importing.
SomeOtherGuy
09-01-15, 11:47
What is upsetting me is that people appear to be making statements that are not only false but that they know to be false.
There is a fairly large subset of the firearms distribution and retail industry that is now based on selling stuff at ridiculous markups based on fearmongering. And a lot of what they sell isn't very good to begin with. I don't know of any people or companies that are M4C regulars that do this, but outside of M4C there are plenty. Caveat emptor.
No more Saigas for now and they are not being or going to be built here. Vepr are still coming in, in fact the new 6.5x39 (6.5 Grendel) Veprs just arrived
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I do not know that there are Saiga's being built in the US. I do know that Kalashnikov Concern is going to be making AK's in the US resembling Saiga's, but these having nothing to do with "Kalashnikov" except for the name. No one in the US is allowed to have any financial ties to any of the companies in the EO.
Kalashnikov Concern has nothing to do with Kalashnikov USA. People need to stop repeating this bullshit.
Kalashnikov USA are not real AKs, they are aftermarket reproductions.
^ That's right.
Apologies for the typo; edited for correction.
Kalashnikov USA are not real AKs, they are aftermarket reproductions.
That is what I don't like about the new Kalashnikov USA AK's. I prefer Russian guns to be produced in Russia
Actually VEPR firearms are affected by the executive order as Molot is part of the Kalashnikov Concern (Izmash and Molot merged several years ago). New orders for VEPRs are not allowed to be imported, and there were many orders that had to be evaluated by the State Dept to determine which could be delivered and which were not allowed under the ban. In addition, Wolf Performance Arms and RWC held back on releasing some items that were already in the country until they unloaded most of the more common inventory where they had thousands of guns to move (IZ-109, VEPR-12, etc). They are sitting on about 10,000 5-rd factory VEPR-12 mags, I guess until the demand drives the prices up even more. We have had distributors trying to get them to release the mags since late last year but no luck so far. The 6.5x39mm Grendal rifles started coming in a couple of years ago so it wouldn't surprise me to see dates of 2012 on the boxes. We'll see as we have a few coming into our shop next week.
As far as Kalashnikov-USA, it is just RWC Group LLC renamed. They were the exclusive importer of many Saiga models, and they used Arsenal and FIME gunsmiths extensively for conversion and upgrade work. Our understanding is that Kalashnikov-USA is now using Arsenal to manufacture parts for Saiga-like firearms since the allowed Saiga backorders have all been imported, and both Kalashnikov-USA and FIME are doing assembly and testing. Eventually K-USA plans to do the complete production themselves.
Why is it then that I just sat in a presentation with Wolf where they showed off a bunch of new stuff that you claim is banned or old stock?
That is a fair and legitimate question. I'm looking forward to the answer.
TED
I'm not sure how to directly respond to your statement without knowing what the presentation was or which products were discussed, but I can provide information to support my statement.
The exact text in EO13662 bans the import of products from Izhmash joint stock company (part of Kalshnikov Concern joint stock company). Izhmash owns Molot as a holding, and it is therefore included in the sanctions.
Last year Izhmash began attempting to divest assets to private investors, including their commercial sporting arms production in an attempt to get around the US sanctions, but that hasn't yet been accomplished, and it will remain to be seen whether the new entity will be added to the list.
If you can provide the specifics on the new products that you saw I'd be happy to look into it. Wolf imports many products, and if they are from private industry in Russia vs the sanctioned government-run "private" production facilities they are legal to import.
Which they are. WPA will continue to import Vepr rifles and shotguns.
I spent 30 mins talking to their ATF and import/export guy. Unless I missed you here at the event, I'm fairly sure you don't have the latest and correct information. But they are happy you are here to drive up demand so they can keep importing and selling products.
I wasn't at their event, and I'm not here to drive up demand for anyone. If there is new information it certainly hasn't been published. I also don't take marketing pitches at face value. When we see a change in the numbers of guns available on the wholesale market it will be clear. Until then feel free to keep spouting, but people trying to buy the new guns will have a hard time believing it while the shelves are nearly bare.
I don't know about all that but I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that no president will ever allow reimportation
of Izhmash produced AK rifles since Putin stuck his dick in Obamas eye.
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