View Full Version : Reality Check: Is There A Link Between Mass Shootings and Anti-Depressants?
titsonritz
09-05-15, 12:04
Hell must be getting chilly right about now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjB0gTzxhF4&feature=player_embedded
I think there is a bigger link with people who have mental problems, the severity of that problem and the ability of medication to treat that problem.
The world is a lot more densely populated today than it was just a hundred years-ago. In 1915 the estimated world population was 1.8 billion; today the estimate is 7.3 billion; since 1959, the world population increases by about a billion every 12-13 years. This is largely due to decreased infant mortality rates and vaccinations.
Point being, there have always been folks who suffered from depression, or were just plain batshit crazy. In the not too recent past those folks didn't make it to adulthood, often if they did they were criminals, hermits, the town drunk, or the crazy guy everyone either stayed away from or messed with. In the more recent past many of those folks were institutionalized.
Today, the vast majority of folks with diagnosed depression or psychotic tendencies are controlled by medication, far more than those who go postal or active shooter. They do far more good than harm.
But you know, if we took all the guns away........
Maybe a better approach would be to reduce publicity of mass murder so the unbalanced don't fixate on it. That way when they go off they will likely only harm those close to them who ignored the warning signs.
I attended a School Violence workshop several years ago and the issue of mental health and prescription drugs was discussed. Check out the data on the attachment. It makes a person think.
SomeOtherGuy
09-05-15, 13:23
Here's a whole website full of incidents where something bad happened and the actor involved was using SSRI medications, or recently came off of them. We all know "correlation is not causation" and therefore this alone is not proof of causation, but there's certainly some connection. The only other logical connection I can think of is that people prone to mass murder are being prescribed SSRI drugs - in other words, independent cause but still a potential red flag.
http://www.ssristories.net/
BoringGuy45
09-05-15, 14:01
That little expose jumped to conclusions and was about as ignorant as most anti-gun news stories. Just another opportunity to blame something other than the evil individual who actually committed the crime. Another example of blaming a widely used product for the actions of a few people.
Anti-depressants don't turn normal people into psycho killers. If that were the case, there would be a hell of a lot more psycho killers running around. I speak from personal experience and from having numerous friends and family who have taken SSRIs for years for various reasons. The main issue is that the anti-depressants just don't treat the underlying problem that would make a person do that. The problem is that SSRIs are not a treatment for psychotic disorders or personality disorders. The nuts who go on shooting sprees were going to do it whether or not they were on medication.
I know what many people want is for the cure for anxiety and depression to be smacking a person upside the head and telling them to "quit bitching and grow a ****ing pair for Christ's sake." But if that were the case, nobody would have ever had to take medication. The stuff helped me with my OCD, helped my wife with her anxiety, helped my dad with his depression, and helped many police officers and combat vets I know with their stress.
I'll be damned if I let anyone take away my guns because someone else did something awful with a similar gun. I'll be damned if someone tells me I can't take medication that's helping me because it may or may not have caused someone else to do something awful. And if anyone says I have to choose either medication or being able to own guns but not both, **** that.
no it does not make normal people go overboard but allows folks who are borderline to cross that line that much easier which is a problem
and not of the drug but the abuse of doctors subscribing it to often IMHO
titsonritz
09-05-15, 16:48
I think there is a bigger link with people who have mental problems, the severity of that problem and the ability of medication to treat that problem.
That little expose jumped to conclusions and was about as ignorant as most anti-gun news stories. Just another opportunity to blame something other than the evil individual who actually committed the crime. Another example of blaming a widely used product for the actions of a few people.
Anti-depressants don't turn normal people into psycho killers. If that were the case, there would be a hell of a lot more psycho killers running around. I speak from personal experience and from having numerous friends and family who have taken SSRIs for years for various reasons. The main issue is that the anti-depressants just don't treat the underlying problem that would make a person do that. The problem is that SSRIs are not a treatment for psychotic disorders or personality disorders. The nuts who go on shooting sprees were going to do it whether or not they were on medication.
I know what many people want is for the cure for anxiety and depression to be smacking a person upside the head and telling them to "quit bitching and grow a ****ing pair for Christ's sake." But if that were the case, nobody would have ever had to take medication. The stuff helped me with my OCD, helped my wife with her anxiety, helped my dad with his depression, and helped many police officers and combat vets I know with their stress.
I'll be damned if I let anyone take away my guns because someone else did something awful with a similar gun. I'll be damned if someone tells me I can't take medication that's helping me because it may or may not have caused someone else to do something awful. And if anyone says I have to choose either medication or being able to own guns but not both, **** that.
I agree 100%. What I find amazing is a member of the MSM is saying something besides "It's the guns fault".
I don't believe it is the SSRI that causes the issue. It is the fact that someone with a propensity to go unhinged is more likely to be on an SSRI that someone who without psychiatric illness. The key lies in determining WHICH psychiatric diagnoses and personality traits are high risk. Obviously schizophrenia is at the top of the list. Frankly, it should not be that difficult to search electronic data from these mass shooters to determine the common factors. Look at FB, other social media, emails, texts.
Averageman
09-05-15, 17:22
It is very similar to "Which came first the Chicken or the Egg?".
I have a friend who has some pretty severe issues, both physical and psychological due to his service, the best thing that ever happened to him was his Girlfriend, now Wife sitting down with all of these meds and cross checking them with a PDR and Health Care Professionals. Many of the meds he had been prescribed were in conflict with each other and were hurting his quality of life, with time and lots of help from his Doctors he has whittled two dozen meds to include a pain pump down to a manageable number and he is for all purposes, a new and better Man.
Now if you don't have someone in your life who has that kind of smarts and love in their heart for you, you very well could be in trouble.
On the other hand and something totally different, how do you deal with a mentally ill and potentially violent loved one, especially a child?
There aren't a lot of alternatives anymore for people with severe mental issues, it would seem the name of the game is to medicate them, or perhaps over medicate them. Now that's simply not going to work for everyone, especially without the kind of awareness not everyone seems to have about these meds.
The other side of that same coin may be that many people want to convince themselves, no matter what evidence is available that their loved ones do not need to be institutionalized.
Until we take mental illness seriously and put the money up, we can only expect more of these incidents, at least that is what I believe.
I get really damned tired of hearing someone say "I knew it was going to happen one of these days."
SomeOtherGuy
09-05-15, 20:54
Anti-depressants don't turn normal people into psycho killers. If that were the case, there would be a hell of a lot more psycho killers running around. I speak from personal experience and from having numerous friends and family who have taken SSRIs for years for various reasons. The main issue is that the anti-depressants just don't treat the underlying problem that would make a person do that. The problem is that SSRIs are not a treatment for psychotic disorders or personality disorders. The nuts who go on shooting sprees were going to do it whether or not they were on medication.
A couple of years ago I had an interesting conversation with a physician who was buying a rifle from me. It was shortly after Sandy Hook and I mentioned something about the seeming connection between SSRIs and mass killings. He mentioned that a close friend of his, also a physician, had told him about taking an SSRI drug for mild depression and having new and frequent homicidal thoughts, which he hadn't had before starting the drug. He stopped taking it and after a few weeks stopped having them. Fortunately he recognized and corrected the problem. Now, is this other doctor normal or somehow prone to violence - I have no idea. But he apparently found it weird and disturbing enough to share it with a friend.
If you look at the correlations between SSRI drugs and weird behavior, you'll find that there are correlations not only with murder but also suicide, adultery and specifically the weird modern phenomena of seemingly attractive and normal adult women pursuing teenage boys for sex, which just doesn't show up in my history books before the current era. I'm not saying there is pure cause and effect, but I suspect there is some contributing cause in some people.
SSRIs are a whole class of drugs that aren't very well understood scientifically, but are nonetheless widely prescribed and used. Nearly all drugs, psych and otherwise, have varying effects in different people. It's quite possible that SSRIs are OK in many people but do actually cause some small subset of people to basically go nuts. I don't see this being studied seriously.
My comments aren't directed at the tv news piece.
An Undocumented Worker
09-05-15, 21:53
I'm gonna go with, there's a link between being diagnosed as ****ed in the head and taking antidepressants. And people that are jacked in the head have higher tendency to do jacked up stuff.
Perhaps those inclined to commit mass-shootings are demon-possessed. Jesus cast out many demons.
ForTehNguyen
09-05-15, 22:36
you cant talk about that! Big Pharma will pull your advertising. Of which are some of the biggest advertising budgets in the nation
So instead of using the Left's tactic of "blame the gun, not the evil person" we've moved to "blame the medication, not the evil person?"
As far as I know, Flanagan/Williams drug history or lack thereof isn't known. Roof was only mentioned to have used an opioid drug for withdrawal from painkillers. Holmes was using Vicodin. These are three of the most infamous cases being discussed. It's no surprise that people with mental health issues are some of the most prone to have serious substance abuse issues.
But let's pretend that doesn't matter and get back to basic mental health and treatment.
By the time a person seeks treatment for mental disorders, especially extreme psychotic disorders, it can be too late. A doctor simply cannot know the degree of a person's issues with a few visits. That's complicated by these patients having difficulty expressing or even intentionally hiding their true problems.
Erratic and impulsive behavior complicates the patients taking their medication properly and missing followup appointments or even stopping therapy all together.
Doctors are often in no-win situations. They have the job of honing in on some of the worst disorders in the shortest amounts of time before it's too late. What works for the majority of patients, prescribing typical antidepressants, obviously doesn't work for everyone. The doctor may not have the time nor means to see that the SSRI they prescribed as the first line of treatment did not work for these psychos.
Sometimes it's just a losing battle.
Medication is, generally speaking, over used by the medical profession.
Until I intervened and started asking questions, my mother was on far too many medications. She is now down from nine or so daily meds to three, that are probably doing more good than harm.
Anti-depressants are being over used, just like everything else, I wouldn't be surprised if these medicines are a contributing factor.
Let's say I have insomnia and I tell my doctor I've tried everything to sleep. He writes me a prescription and I try the medication for weeks but I still can't sleep. Or let's say I can finally sleep but forget to take my daily dose or run out.
Then one day on my way to work I doze off, cause a crash and kill somebody.
Should the doctor or medication be blamed? Or should I be blamed?
titsonritz
09-06-15, 01:13
Blame the car. :no:
It isn't about "blame" it is about identifying the problem and fixing it if possible. Hope you folks don't work in environments where every time something goes wrong you play the blame game instead of accepting people make mistakes and learn from them.
Averageman
09-06-15, 07:31
So instead of using the Left's tactic of "blame the gun, not the evil person" we've moved to "blame the medication, not the evil person?"
As far as I know, Flanagan/Williams drug history or lack thereof isn't known. Roof was only mentioned to have used an opioid drug for withdrawal from painkillers. Holmes was using Vicodin. These are three of the most infamous cases being discussed. It's no surprise that people with mental health issues are some of the most prone to have serious substance abuse issues.
But let's pretend that doesn't matter and get back to basic mental health and treatment.
By the time a person seeks treatment for mental disorders, especially extreme psychotic disorders, it can be too late. A doctor simply cannot know the degree of a person's issues with a few visits. That's complicated by these patients having difficulty expressing or even intentionally hiding their true problems.
Erratic and impulsive behavior complicates the patients taking their medication properly and missing followup appointments or even stopping therapy all together.
Doctors are often in no-win situations. They have the job of honing in on some of the worst disorders in the shortest amounts of time before it's too late. What works for the majority of patients, prescribing typical antidepressants, obviously doesn't work for everyone. The doctor may not have the time nor means to see that the SSRI they prescribed as the first line of treatment did not work for these psychos.
Sometimes it's just a losing battle.
I have to agree with 99% of what you wrote, but the issue is everyone is afraid to recommend committing someone for observation, be that Healthcare Professionals or family members.
You can't love away some severe mental illness
I have to agree with 99% of what you wrote, but the issue is everyone is afraid to recommend committing someone for observation, be that Healthcare Professionals or family members.
You can't love away some severe mental illness
Have you tried to get someone committed without insurance?
I have known doctors who've said 'I'm the primary care physician, if I say in-patient therapy is needed then he'll be admitted.' Only to be told otherwise by the social worker hired by the HMO.
Try getting a facility to take your child for treatment, without a large amount of cash up front, if you don't have insurance.
I went through that ordeal with a nephew, I thank God that he essentially self-corrected because Mom, Dad, and the Mental Health Profession weren't much help.
I dunno. If you're a raving schizo who does Dahmer stuff, then yeah...you need to be doped up or confined/controlled/be a ward.
If you're just sad, angsty, or really emo, you should probably just go to Lowe's, buy a step ladder and get over yourself.
Best medicine in the world are friends and family or constructive introspection.
There are people who can't walk, are blind, or can't hear and they live it up. Best medicine for me was accepting that some things can't be helped.
Soccer moms who keep their kids doped up because they can't deall with sassiness are to blame.
Bunches of kids on ritalin and adderall is horrible.
Just an opinion.
Soccer moms who keep their kids doped up because they can't deall with sassiness are to blame.
Bunches of kids on ritalin and adderall is horrible.
Just an opinion.
I tend to agree. One of my daughter's was born with FAS, minor cerebral palsy, and was ADHD, she got kicked out of pre-school. We coped, and at age 7 she followed her sister into competitive swimming. As the workouts increased her symptoms became less apparent and she developed coping mechanisms to help her overcome her challenges. Now she swims 2 hours a day, plays piano by ear, plays drums, and sings as well as shoots with me. She has developed an active lifestyle which took care of her problems quite nicely - except a couple days each month - LOL.
we homeschool now but our kid went to school in 1st grade
I went in one time to the school nurse as our kid had a nosebleed (quite badly)
anyway the amount of medicine in the cabinet for kids was amazing I mean truly mind blowing looking like a small pharmacy
I asked the nurse a nice older lady if that was all for the kids and she said YES its like a constant stream of kids coming in with others helping around lunch time to get it all out to them and the lineup goes around the corner
WOW we both kinda gave each that look and shook our heads :)
like anything yes a few very few need help but these days its like all of a sudden everyone is allergic to gluten ?
Medication is, generally speaking, over used by the medical profession.
Until I intervened and started asking questions, my mother was on far too many medications. She is now down from nine or so daily meds to three, that are probably doing more good than harm.
Anti-depressants are being over used, just like everything else, I wouldn't be surprised if these medicines are a contributing factor.
By that same logic, people are coming in for things that don't need medications.
What would you have a provider do? Not address the patient concern, and open themself to litigation or loss of license, or treat the problem?
Most drugs are prescribed because the patient wants something. Few are willing, motivated, or able to do the non medicine interventions that may work.
Some medicines are, of course, used to treat numbers (eg cholesterol or blood pressure) and thus the patients.
Crow Hunter
09-08-15, 09:45
Based on my very limited experience with a family member. It isn't the drugs that are causing mental changes, it is the dependence that the brain develops on those drugs and then, for whatever reason, the person stops taking those drugs.
The brain cannot cope, and it can radically alter a persons personality. Some people, unfortunately, maybe due to their particular underlying brain chemistry, turn into narcissistic murderous monsters.
Even taking an extremely small dose of SSRIs can alter a persons brain chemistry. My Mother was taking 1/2 of the smallest dose you could take every other day for close to 10 years after my father passed away because the doctor told her that she needed it to cope with my Father's sickness and passing. There is no history whatsoever of mental illness in my Mother's family and prior to that moron doctor prescribing this to my Mom, she had never taken any mood altering drugs, never drank alcohol and even refused to take pain pills after surgery because she didn't want to develop a dependency.
When she became ill and could not swallow and thus could not take this medication her personality was significantly different. It was scary what happened.
I can't imagine what this would do to someone who did have an underlying mental disorder and was taking serious dosages of SSRIs and then stopped taking them.
Honestly I am surprised that we don't have more of these incidences.
I think the issue is more potentially violent individuals who should be committed for inpatient treatment instead being given drugs and sent on their way...
There are a lot of good people who are taking prescription drugs to manage stress issues. The fact that they are taking prescription drugs is not the issue.
The fact that a lot of people who were involved in school and workplace violence were taking prescription drugs is one indicator and not the primary indicator. It's the fact that they were being treated by mental health professionals and may require more intensive monitoring and supervision.
How should this issue be addressed?
"How should this issue be addressed"
If someone is being medicated to prevent them from harming themselves or others they should be committed. The problem is the money. It's not there so they throw pills at the problem. The person with the problem doesn't take his meds or adjust his regime so he can get drunk on Saturday. Maybe they doctor shop to get more of the stuff that makes them feel better. I have seen all happen. A guy we know is diagnosed bi-polar which is a polite way of saying manic-depression. He saves pills so he have extras if he thinks he needs it. He threatened his landscape maintenance guy for missing a leaf. He yells at neighborhood kids for looking at him. He beat his car with a hammer because it wouldn't start. Guess what??? He owns guns. If it were up to me he wouldn't. Funny how your attitude changes when the problem is in your backyard.
Here's a real reality check:
No matter how we try to stop evil from being evil and killing people, be it shooting one person at a time or shooting multiple people at a time- we will NEVER be able to stop it.
It is a very small part of the human condition- sometimes people go bonkers and kill people. Period.
The best we can do is be armed and ready to put these mad dogs down when they start shooting.
We could take away every gun, knife, hammer, bat, etc in existence and it wouldn't stop mass murder, it would just change the tool used to conduct the murder.
You cannot outlaw evil and you cannot preemptively take care of this issue without trampling peoples rights. There may in the near future be a way to adjust our DNA to stop these things, but that opens up a whole different conversation and scary things to think about...
The human condition is quite varied and all over the place- bad, good, funny, sad, pathetic, awkward, malevolent, benevolent, downright ****ing weird, etc, etc, etc but it cannot be legislated away.
We are human beings and terrible atrocities are just part of that.
Taking away peoples "Rights" is a slippery slope. A scary dangerous slippery slope.
"How should this issue be addressed"
If someone is being medicated to prevent them from harming themselves or others they should be committed. The problem is the money. It's not there so they throw pills at the problem. The person with the problem doesn't take his meds or adjust his regime so he can get drunk on Saturday. Maybe they doctor shop to get more of the stuff that makes them feel better. I have seen all happen. A guy we know is diagnosed bi-polar which is a polite way of saying manic-depression. He saves pills so he have extras if he thinks he needs it. He threatened his landscape maintenance guy for missing a leaf. He yells at neighborhood kids for looking at him. He beat his car with a hammer because it wouldn't start. Guess what??? He owns guns. If it were up to me he wouldn't. Funny how your attitude changes when the problem is in your backyard.
Plenty of people deal with bipolar disorder and many much more severe mental conditions and never act like your neighbor. You see things in black and white which frightens you but there are many shades of gray. People have that one stereotypical example of a person with a condition and they see everybody with that condition the same way.
I've seen more drunks and drug addicts act like your neighbor and worse. Even go so far as to hurt people. Yet until they're convicted of a felony they get to keep their guns. It's the law.
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Plenty of people deal with bipolar disorder and many much more severe mental conditions and never act like your neighbor. You see things in black and white which frightens you but there are many shades of gray. People have that one stereotypical example of a person with a condition and they see everybody with that condition the same way.
I've seen more drunks and drug addicts act like your neighbor and worse. Even go so far as to hurt people. Yet until they're convicted of a felony they get to keep their guns. It's the law.
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So I am supposed to embrace my neighbor and support his gun rights until he kills me??? Bullshit! I am not the one taking dope to keep me from doing something stupid!!
So I am supposed to embrace my neighbor and support his gun rights until he kills me??? Bullshit! I am not the one taking dope to keep me from doing something stupid!!
Calm down man.
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SeriousStudent
09-08-15, 20:50
Do not make this thread personal. If you do, you will go on vacation.
I have to agree with 99% of what you wrote, but the issue is everyone is afraid to recommend committing someone for observation, be that Healthcare Professionals or family members.
You can't love away some severe mental illness
You know that's something I don't have a good answer for but something has to change. Family members are so close to the problem their judgement is clouded. So who is left to make that call? It wouldn't matter if a doctor told the family a guy was about to go off the rails. They're in denial and hope the warning signs will go away.
PTSD is an even more complicated issue. Who wants to patronize a combat veteran and insult them?
There's a known link between low frontal lobe activity and psychotic and suicidal behavior. The effects of traumatic brain injury supports this. There is just no way to treat either PTSD or TBE without medication and/or psychotherapy. Commitment should be the last option absent psychotic behavior.
Eddie Ray Routh, murderer of Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield, was a ticking time bomb. Although he isn't considered a mass murderer. I'm not aware of him taking any prescription medications.
Routh had been in and out of mental hospitals for at least two years and had been diagnosed with schizophrenia. His family also said he suffered from PTSD from his time in the military.
If anybody ever made the case for involuntary commitment it's Jared Lee Loughner. Good grief what a ticking time bomb. He was known to abuse alcohol, hallucinogens, psychedelic mushrooms and LSD but apparently no prescription meds.
He had been suspended from Pima Community College in September 2010 because of his bizarre behavior and disruptions in classes and the library. After his arrest, two medical evaluations diagnosed him as paranoid schizophrenic and incompetent to stand trial.
In the months leading up to the shooting, Loughner's parents became increasingly alarmed at their son's behavior, at one point resorting to disabling his car every night in order to keep him at home. On one occasion, his father confiscated his son's shotgun and both parents urged him to get help.
From February to September 2010, while a student at Pima Community College, Loughner had five contacts with college police for classroom and library disruptions. Some of his teachers complained to the administration about his disruptions and bizarre behavior, as they thought it a sign of mental illness and feared what he might do.
The college decided to suspend Loughner and sent a letter to his parents, to consult with them and him together. The college told Loughner that if he wanted to return, he needed to resolve his code of conduct violations and obtain a mental health clearance (indicating, in the opinion of a mental health professional, that his presence did not constitute a danger to himself or others). On October 4, Loughner and his parents met with campus administrators and Loughner indicated he would withdraw from the college. During Loughner's time at Pima, a classmate said she worried that he might commit a school shooting. One of his teachers has claimed a similar suspicion after the Tucson shooting. He never submitted to a mental health evaluation and did not return to the college.
So many warning signs.
There was a guy in Idaho who killed in Moscow, ID and another town in Nevada. His name is John Delling. He was a friend of mine growing up and is one of the major reasons I got into LE and why I want to get back into it. He was kicked out of the University of Idaho our freshmen year (I hadn't had much contact in a few years as we went to different high schools) for some strange behavior to include stalking and escalation of violence. Long story short he was a prime candidate for involuntary commitment but his parents never did it. He was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and killed 2 high school classmates and attempted to kill a 3rd for "stealing his aura". The day he was in Moscow, ID I got a strange call at 5ish AM that I didn't answer, detectives later said it may have saved me.
He family said he was so unstable they took away his guns but never had him committed. His mom is even quoted as saying "John was very sick, and that's all I can tell you,". He wasn't on any meds that I know of or remember hearing about. His brother is quoted as being told by John, "Do you think David (Boss) is the one stealing my powers?" His warning signs began when he was 15 and were virtually ignored until his arrest at 21.
I see this thread as some limited recognition that the US has a major mental health treatment issue. I've met people who are so messed up mentally they should not be allowed to walk the streets but instead are ordered to treatment they won't go to and drugs they won't take. Thus they end up on the street and self medicate. This will piss a lot of people here off but even with meds that smooth things out there are some out there who should not have access to firearms. If they decide to stop taking their meds there will be problems. Even then, as mentioned above in the thread, sometimes the meds and the person react poorly causing more issues. I don't have the education or background to decide who should and should not have access to firearms. It is not something to be taken lightly as you are taking away someone's constitutional rights and while I don't have the answer, it should be discussed.
That little expose jumped to conclusions and was about as ignorant as most anti-gun news stories. Just another opportunity to blame something other than the evil individual who actually committed the crime. Another example of blaming a widely used product for the actions of a few people.
Anti-depressants don't turn normal people into psycho killers. If that were the case, there would be a hell of a lot more psycho killers running around. I speak from personal experience and from having numerous friends and family who have taken SSRIs for years for various reasons. The main issue is that the anti-depressants just don't treat the underlying problem that would make a person do that. The problem is that SSRIs are not a treatment for psychotic disorders or personality disorders. The nuts who go on shooting sprees were going to do it whether or not they were on medication.
I know what many people want is for the cure for anxiety and depression to be smacking a person upside the head and telling them to "quit bitching and grow a ****ing pair for Christ's sake." But if that were the case, nobody would have ever had to take medication. The stuff helped me with my OCD, helped my wife with her anxiety, helped my dad with his depression, and helped many police officers and combat vets I know with their stress.
I'll be damned if I let anyone take away my guns because someone else did something awful with a similar gun. I'll be damned if someone tells me I can't take medication that's helping me because it may or may not have caused someone else to do something awful. And if anyone says I have to choose either medication or being able to own guns but not both, **** that.
Those who were ever prescribed SSRIs will soon lose their fun rights.
Watch.
Be careful and no one not close to you needs that information.
"Controlled Substances"
"Causality"
Etc.
WILL be brought into the public's non-critical thinking attention.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
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