View Full Version : Fireclean...is it just re-branded Crisco Vegetable oil? Video...
Background: George Fennell (the inventor of FP-10 and later Weapon Shield) has stated that FIREClean is identical to Crisco Vegetable Oil. Going so far as to state that on a spectrometer, they have an identical signature.
http://i61.tinypic.com/25k22kx.jpg
I set to prove this either correct, or incorrect.
Same-chemicals have same-specific gravities. In other words, they will mix when introduced to one another. This makes sense, right? You pour honey into more honey, and it all looks the same. You pour new motor-oil into a container of the same new motor oil, and they don't "layer", they are indistinguishable. Water into water...water. So on and so forth, provided both chemicals are identical and of the same temperature.
When two liquids don't mix (like oil and water) and there is a difference in the specific gravity between two substances, they will form layers in order of their specific gravities.
http://www.wiley.com/college/chem/brady184764/resources/ch01/ch1_rsrc_spcgrv_liquid_vid.html
So...I bought some Crisco vegetable oil, and some Fireclean, stored them both at room temperature, and poured them into the same container. Not necessarily conclusive if they mix, but pretty damning of Mr. Fennel's hypothesis of them being identical if they DON'T mix.
Well, here's the video. You decide...does this look like more of the same chemical being introduced to itself?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDOMu0jYETU
http://i57.tinypic.com/2a5iqkh.jpg
All of the non-toxic stuff is likely some sort of veggie oil.
If it doesn't go rancid or gum up, I like it.
All of the non-toxic stuff is likely some sort of veggie oil.
If it doesn't go rancid or gum up, I like it.
I gave my father a DDM4 V5 for Christmas in 2014. I lubed it with FIREClean, dropped in an ALG trigger, threw a light on it, and boxed it up before giving it to him.
My father, being somewhat of a collector, literally (much to my annoyance, but it IS his...) has never fired that rifle. It has stayed in his safe, in a warehouse, in 50-90% humidity, for nearly 2 years now, swinging from literal freezing to over 100*F temperatures. Yesterday, I asked him if he would remove it from "storage" and pop the BCG out and describe the condition of the lubricant. He did so, and informed me that it was clear, easily spread between a finger and thumb, but slightly "tacky"/thicker than when it likely went on, although it was not "gummy", and he said he saw no potential for malfunction, only that it was a bit tacky compared to new. He reported no odd colors, smells, or anything else. I have yet to see ANY oil type product which will not get a smudge "tacky" when left on a surface like that for nearly 2 years, if it doesn't evaporate completely.
Specific gravity can cause stratification, but hydrophobic/hydrophilic will cause no mixing, like oil and water.
2 molecules of different spec. Gravitas can still mix, like alcohol and water, or oil and acetone.
I believe fireclean is a modified plant oil so it's not really the same. Thats like saying bio diesel is oil. It's not. I haven't tested it but if it doesn't go rancid, it's not just vegetable oil.
I'd like to know what kind of spectrometer he used, mass spec? 2 molecules can have the same mass and be different.
Specific gravity can cause stratification, but hydrophobic/hydrophilic will cause no mixing, like oil and water.
2 molecules of different spec. Gravitas can still mix, like alcohol and water, or oil and acetone.
I believe fireclean is a modified plant oil so it's not really the same. Thats like saying bio diesel is oil. It's not. I haven't tested it but if it doesn't go rancid, it's not just vegetable oil.
I'd like to know what kind of spectrometer he used, mass spec? 2 molecules can have the same mass and be different.
I understand that specific gravity may not be the sole cause of the "refusal" of FIREClean and Vegetabl oil by Crisco to mix, but it is readily apparent that they are far from the same chemical.
I started using Fireclean a six weeks or so ago, and that's not enough time to make any statements regarding long-term cleaning/lubrication. It is definitely enough time to observe that this stuff DOES in fact begin to have a "rancid oil" smell after a week or so on a firearm. What's more, I coated the baffles and the inside of the tube on a freshly-cleaned Element 2 suppressor, and the first time I fired it, the smoke and the smell of rancid burning oil was horrible. Just an $0.02 from a new member with a low post count.
I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if this was true. America has repeatedly shown a tendency to believe anything when it comes to lubrication. All FireClean has to do to boost sales through the roof is get some NASCAR driver to slap a FireClean sticker on the side of their car.
I've used it off and on but for me atleast I didn't really see an advantage over using Mobile 1 or the like, IMO.
I understand that specific gravity may not be the sole cause of the "refusal" of FIREClean and Vegetabl oil by Crisco to mix, but it is readily apparent that they are far from the same chemical.
Agreed. I haven't used fireclean but vegetable oil solidifies and goes rancid very quickly once heated, so I doubt that's what it is, unless there are some major additives. If anyone wants to claim that and hold any credibility, I'd want some proof more than similar specific gravity and miscibility/solubility.
Charlie Don't Surf
09-06-15, 15:22
Why doesn't someone with two ARs or two G19s clean and lube one with fireclean, one with crisco, fire a few hundred rounds and compare.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why doesn't somebody whip up some stir fry with both & see if one tastes better?
Read the patent, yes it is a concoction of vegetable oil, according to the filed patent.
Most importantly, it also has some pretty effective celebrity marketing.
https://www.google.com/patents/CA2867869A1?cl=en&dq=CA+2867869+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIyqvwt5XhxgIV0gWSCh2sXg_p
Based on its characteristics, I would guess that the base oil for Fireclean is Group V polyol esters possibly blended with some Group IV PAOs. No shame in the connection to vegetable oil; many esters can be synthesised from it. Rand CLP for example is synthesised from vegetable oil. Polyol esters are some of the highest performance base oil lubricants you can find today. They are NOT the same as the oil they were synthesised from.
Without a virgin oil analysis (VOA) we cannot objectively say what Fireclean contains. I'd be cautious of paying too much attention to a competitor's claims. FWIW someone posted a VOA of Weaponshield on a public forum so we have a pretty good idea of what it has (Google it).
As an aside, lubrication is not the voodoo magic that some make it out to be. You start with a set of target requirements, then choose a base oil blend and additive package that gets you there. There really isn't anything new under the sun that the oil industry doesn't know about.
Good ole Mobil 1, $7 dollars for a quart that will last until the sun burns out. I've never understood why some people switch snake oil every time something new hits the market. $14 for a two ounce bottle? No thanks.
I don't know, maybe it's me. But is this whole fireclean thing going the same way that frog lube went a year or so ago?
Hey, this is the greatest thing ever. Even better than the last greatest thing ever. Now it gums or whatever. Is it really just Crisco? Now, it's not as great as it was last year.
Seems like the same old story.
hotrodder636
09-06-15, 19:46
I received a sample of FireClean from somewhere and subsequently I have been using it since the time it was introduced. I was using Slip2000 but I prefer the film and clean up I get with FireClean. Snake oil or not, I will continue to use and recommend the product. I like how easy the carbon fouls wipes off of parts treated with the stuff. I am not saying synthetic motor oil won't do the same, but I don't have any experience with it. For me FireClean works and it is what it is.
I recently started doing some testing with Fireclean as well. I also, followed the instructions and didn't drowned ny weapons in it. Thus far, it seems to be performing as advertised. There is very little clean up necessary and the carbon wipes off.
If someone wants to use Mobile 1, CLP or whatever have at it. When the world ends I will probably use Mobile 1 as well. But, we aren't there yet.
I was hoping the Fireclean was Veggy oil so it would eaiser to replace when the bottle runs out. A drop on a BCG and it says wet even after lots of suppressed shooting. Appears to work whatever it is.
Has any one tasted both crisco vegetable oil and fire clean?
I wonder if used Crisco oil would make your AR smell like french fries when it gets hot?
Has any one tasted both crisco vegetable oil and fire clean?
In a world where most meats all taste like chicken...serious?
556BlackRifle
09-07-15, 00:13
I know nothing about Fire Clean other than what I've heard word of mouth and on the forums. Everyone I know in the real world, who has tried it, swears by it. It may be vegetable based like Frog Lube (which btw is the only thing I'll use on my Glocks) but it seems to work very well.
I just keep it simple and use regular CLP. Then I'm not so worried about whether vegetable oil is in my guns (never thought I'd say or type that).
Some suppressor users have found silicone oil also makes it easy to remove carbon from suppressor internals.
You got to love those lube threads... I am not big on trendy stuff and never went the FrogLube way.
Going from the Mobil 1 made for Harleys (forgot the weight) to Fireclean, I noticed the BCG was easier to clean after a few hundred rounds. Same goes for suppressed fire. The idea of breathing petrochemicals for extended periods of time did not thrill me either.
I do not care who promotes it or what it is, but it works for my needs.
Other lubes worth of consideration are greases containing nano ceramic beads made for the food industry.
Has any one tasted both crisco vegetable oil and fire clean?
Science for the win!
I use it.
I like it.
End of story.
As stated above, the OP has confused miscibility (whether one material is soluble into another) and density (specific gravity).
For instance, CLP is miscible with gasoline even though they have different specific gravities.
You don't use spectral analysis, (aka ICP Inductively Coupled Plasma (ICP) or mass spectrometer) for the simple reason that the elemental constituents do not conclusively identify the molecules present (In plain English, both mineral oils and vegetable oils are hydrocarbons, so the test is inconclusive for determining base stock.
One of the most common tests to determine base oil is FTIR (Fourier Transform Infared Analysis). In this test a range of infrared light is passed through the sample and a plot is generated of IR absorption versus wavelength. This plot is compared to plots from known base stocks to determine the material. Since IR absorption is a function of molecular structure, the test is good at identifying a complex mix of hydrocarbons.
The other test to do this would be gas chromatography.
There is a lot of work being done with plant oil based lubricants. Understand this, a plant oil based lubricant is not the same thing as Crisco or corn oil. It has been modified. The plant oil is just the starting point, just as crude oil is a starting point for conventional lubes.
As noted above one key issue is stabilizing against oxidation (which creates odor in plant oils, and ultimately results in gumming or varnish). This is also an issue for petroleum based hydrocarbons, although usually only an issue at sustained elevated temperature.
Bottom line: lubricant demands in a firearm are almost laughably low. Lots of products will work. Ignorance of the science is what the marketers use to sell, by selectively dropping bits and pieces of science to the uninformed. One of their favorite techniques is to quote a test as gospel proof that the product is better. People don't know how the test works, it's limitations, if it's even relevant to the matter under discussion, or how to interpret the results. They don't even know if it's the right test in the first place.
In my experience working with lubes, it takes a range of tests to figure out what you have going on. It's kind of like your doctor. He runs a full battery of tests, then interprets individual results in context of all of the other results. Isolated bits of info are almost useless.
As stated above, the OP has confused miscibility (whether one material mixes fully with another) and density (specific gravity).
For instance, CLP is miscible with gasoline even though they have different specific gravitates.
You don't use spectral analysis, aka ICP Inductively Coupled Plasma (ICP) or mass spectrometer for the simple reason that the elemental constituents do not conclusively identify the molecules present (In plain English, both mineral oils and vegetable oils are hydrocarbons, so the test is inconclusive.
One of the most common tests to determine base oil is FTIR (Fourier Transform Infared) Analysis. In this test a range of infrared light is passed through the sample and a plot is generated of IR absorption versus wavelength. This plot is compared to plots from known base stocks to determine the material. Since the IR absorption is a function of molecular structure, the test is good at identifying a complex mix of hydrocarbons.
The other test to do this would be gas chromatography.
There is a lot of work being done with plant based oil lubricants. Unserstand this, a plant oil based lubricant is not the same thing as Crisco or corn oil. It has been modified. The plant oil is just the starting point, just as crude oil is a starting point for conventional lubes.
As noted above one key issue is stabilizing against oxidation (which creates odor, and ultimately results in gumming or varnish). This is also an issue for petroleum based hydrocarbons also, although usually an issue at elevated temperature.
Bottom line: lubricant demands in a firearm are almost laughably low. Lots of products will work. Ignorance of the science is what the marketers use to sell, by selectively dropping bits and pieces of science to the uninformed. One of their favorite techniques is to quote a test as gospel proof that the product is better. People don't know what the test is, if it's even relevant to the matter under discussion, or hoe to interpret the results. They don't even know if it's the right test in the first place.
In my experience working with lubes, it takes a range of tests to figure out what you have going on. It's kind of like your doctor. He runs a full battery of tests the interprets the results in context of all of the other results. Isolated bits of info are almost useless.
Great post, very informative.
As stated above, the OP has confused miscibility (whether one material is soluble into another) and density (specific gravity).
For instance, CLP is miscible with gasoline even though they have different specific gravities.
You don't use spectral analysis, (aka ICP Inductively Coupled Plasma (ICP) or mass spectrometer) for the simple reason that the elemental constituents do not conclusively identify the molecules present (In plain English, both mineral oils and vegetable oils are hydrocarbons, so the test is inconclusive for determining base stock.
One of the most common tests to determine base oil is FTIR (Fourier Transform Infared Analysis). In this test a range of infrared light is passed through the sample and a plot is generated of IR absorption versus wavelength. This plot is compared to plots from known base stocks to determine the material. Since IR absorption is a function of molecular structure, the test is good at identifying a complex mix of hydrocarbons.
The other test to do this would be gas chromatography.
There is a lot of work being done with plant oil based lubricants. Understand this, a plant oil based lubricant is not the same thing as Crisco or corn oil. It has been modified. The plant oil is just the starting point, just as crude oil is a starting point for conventional lubes.
As noted above one key issue is stabilizing against oxidation (which creates odor in plant oils, and ultimately results in gumming or varnish). This is also an issue for petroleum based hydrocarbons, although usually only an issue at sustained elevated temperature.
Bottom line: lubricant demands in a firearm are almost laughably low. Lots of products will work. Ignorance of the science is what the marketers use to sell, by selectively dropping bits and pieces of science to the uninformed. One of their favorite techniques is to quote a test as gospel proof that the product is better. People don't know how the test works, it's limitations, if it's even relevant to the matter under discussion, or how to interpret the results. They don't even know if it's the right test in the first place.
In my experience working with lubes, it takes a range of tests to figure out what you have going on. It's kind of like your doctor. He runs a full battery of tests, then interprets individual results in context of all of the other results. Isolated bits of info are almost useless.
Very interesting. However, the purpose of this experiment was to prove whether or not they were identical chemicals (Fireclean/Crisco Vegetable Oil). Seems they aren't.
This has me thinking about some Rand CLP I was given in Vtac classes in 2014. This year I was using it again in those classes and noticed it was very tacky. I felt as though it was originally more slippery.
I didn't notice a smell but I'll check it out at home.
Typically I use the single serving plastic pouches of lube, this was a bottl opened in 2014 and used again in 2015. It has seen some heat being put in ammo cans in the sun.
Very interesting. However, the purpose of this experiment was to prove whether or not they were identical chemicals (Fireclean/Crisco Vegetable Oil). Seems they aren't.
The problem with the experimental design was that the test would yield a false positive if veg oil and fire clean happened to be miscible. Referring to my gasoline and CLP example, had they mixed the conclusion would be that they were the same?
The problem with the experimental design was that the test would yield a false positive if veg oil and fire clean happened to be miscible. Referring to my gasoline and CLP example, had they mixed the conclusion would be that they were the same?
Reading the first post, we find that I stated:
Not necessarily conclusive if they mix, but pretty damning of Mr. Fennel's hypothesis of them being identical if they DON'T mix.
No offense to you, but over on TOS, we have a nuclear scientist (his words, although he said "I'm no chemist, Nuke though) who literally understood my first post (same as here) to indicate that they DID mix. I now understand why more and more manufacturers have said "**** the internet forums".
Why doesn't somebody whip up some stir fry with both & see if one tastes better?
You win [emoji23]
I can only go by my experience with different lubes. FireClean seems to leave less carbon buildup. And it makes cleaning easier. I don't have to scrape much to remove carbon and it seems to wipe off more easily than anything else I've used. Rifle action also seems to stay smoother longer. I do not think this is my imagination and I'm not easily convinced by sales people or adds.
So I keep using Fireclean on ARs where carbon buildup is more of a problem. And other lubes on piston rifles.
Reading the first post, we find that I stated:
No offense to you, but over on TOS, we have a nuclear scientist (his words, although he said "I'm no chemist, Nuke though) who literally understood my first post (same as here) to indicate that they DID mix. I now understand why more and more manufacturers have said "**** the internet forums".
Sorry, brain fade on my part wrt conclusions if they do mix in your OP.
Outlander Systems
09-07-15, 15:33
Do they have a MDSS/TDS on-line?
I'm curious to see the flash point, Gravity, etc...
Not sure about fireclean but someone has done a virgin oil analysis of Weaponshield and posted it on an oil forum. The thing of it is, at this point, I am more concerned about the fumes we breathe in that these lubes put out when they burn or go into the air. Fireclean does a good job overall but it doesn't do a better job than weapon shield or Slip 2k EWL when it comes to burn off in my experience.
Not sure about fireclean but someone has done a virgin oil analysis of Weaponshield and posted it on an oil forum. The thing of it is, at this point, I am more concerned about the fumes we breathe in that these lubes put out when they burn or go into the air. Fireclean does a good job overall but it doesn't do a better job than weapon shield or Slip 2k EWL when it comes to burn off in my experience.
This where I'm at too. I've never had a lube not work good enough to keep an AR, Glock, or 1911 running as intended, and I've used some BS to include Rem-Oil and WD-40.
I use Slip 2000 because it doesn't smell, doesn't gel, is non-toxic, keeps anything from sticking to the gun, and doesn't stain clothes.
I tried synthetic motor oil and it turns into a sticky mess after a few months (I very rarely clean a gun past a shop towel wipe-out and re-lube).
*Excellent technical information*
Thank you for posting this. I was thinking along the same lines (FTIR) when I skimmed over this thread on my phone last night.
You can use spectral analysis with a capacitively-coupled plasma (CCP) too.
It is super cheap for me to run NMR samples via my lab. I may have to get some and give it a go. I'm always pissed when MSDS sheets don't give any data on the chemical (firecleans are ambiguous). Trusting the warnings is not my thing, I like to know exactly whats in my organics.
Never run a lipid in an NMR, wondering how good the results will be.
I'm not sure of the direction of this thread. Even if it is simple Pam spray shot into a small bottle, does it really matter? FC does seem to accumulate less carbon than others, and clean up easier when applied as directed.
What is the focus of this? The cost of lube is so low in this in the scheme of things that it doesn't even matter for shooters in the scheme of things. For many, it would cost less than $0.01 per round even if it was $100 per ounce. For my use, it costs way less than that? Why would I bother looking into what it is or a cheaper alternative when I calculate those costs? What is the gain?
I would prefer to spend my time and money on other things.
One of the great things I personally like this site is that people actually shoot, instead of talking about how great their new rifle is without even taking it out of the box or trying it out.
I wouldn't be surprised if FC was plant based, many would encourage it. It may best, or just better for most, or just for some, but the cost in a years time is pointless to me, I would think others that shoot in a reasonable volume would think similar.
Maybe something better will come out? I don't know, bet expect so in some time. Until then, I go for the option that costs far less than 1/100 of one penny per round that works well and shoot the gun and not worry about it.
Eurodriver
09-07-15, 17:50
One of the great things I personally like this site is that people actually shoot, instead of talking about how great their new rifle is without even taking it out of the box or trying it out.
Used to be like that. People would rather debate the merits of sub par brands, lube, hand guard weights, and gas port sizes than actually use their damn weapon.
Because after all, shooting the gun requires skill, technique, and training. Things that you can't just buy and take pictures of to brag about on the Internet.
Yeah, it's unfortunate, I don't know how a forum could control that though? Maybe another could make another website that is more serious. I wouldn't do it for now at least, I'm not even in the industry now. I can't spend the time or funds myself. Please PM me.
Used to be like that. People would rather debate the merits of sub par brands, lube, hand guard weights, and gas port sizes than actually use their damn weapon.
Because after all, shooting the gun requires skill, technique, and training. Things that you can't just buy and take pictures of to brag about on the Internet.
Why bother thinking for yourself when someone else can for you?
I love the "the carbon just wipes right off" comments. I'm using a bicycle grease and it does the same damn thing.
Used to be like that. People would rather debate the merits of sub par brands, lube, hand guard weights, and gas port sizes than actually use their damn weapon.
Because after all, shooting the gun requires skill, technique, and training. Things that you can't just buy and take pictures of to brag about on the Internet.
You're bitch'n about M4C ....try Instagram where if you have an account you're already a S.M.E.:lol:
Got a Fireclean sample with new Kydex the other day. Plan on giving it try on a bolt....and I could give a sh!t about what it's made from as long as it works and doesn't kill me
Ned Christiansen
09-07-15, 19:40
See post #58 regarding my experiment with Parkay.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?145074-Had-an-argument-with-a-friend-on-running-an-M4-dry-in-dusty-conditions/page6&highlight=Parkay
I don't know diddley about Fireclean other than, I have a sample here and what I've lubed with it worked as well as if it had been lubed with the next thing. I just have not dwelled on lube much as my feeling is there is not much out there that is actually "bad" lube. As I've said before if your gat runs on the very, very best, it will also run well on the second, third, and fifth best. It'll probably run on Parkay although I cannot suggest trying it.
Good ole Mobil 1, $7 dollars for a quart that will last until the sun burns out. I've never understood why some people switch snake oil every time something new hits the market. $14 for a two ounce bottle? No thanks.
Idk man, my 2 oz bottle of Fireclean has been used to keep about 8 firearms from bolt actions to semi-auto pistols, from .308 to .22LR, running for a couple years now, shooting at least once if not twice a week. I still have about half that bottle left. I don't get why you'd need a quart.
BufordTJustice
09-07-15, 22:15
Idk man, my 2 oz bottle of Fireclean has been used to keep about 8 firearms from bolt actions to semi-auto pistols, from .308 to .22LR, running for a couple years now, shooting at least once if not twice a week. I still have about half that bottle left. I don't get why you'd need a quart.
I have used break free CLP, slip 2k, slip 2k ewl, slip 2k ewl 30, Hoppes elite, FP 10, MPro 7, RemOil, rand CLP, Mobil 1 5w-30/0w-40/15w-50, royal purple 75w-90 and 85w-140 fully syn gear oil, more synthetic EP greases of common NLGI grades than I can recall, and FireClean.
Nothing reduces friction as well WHEN DIRTY as FireClean. Nothing has been easier to clean. The only other lube that has approached FireClean in terms of lubricity when fouled is the new-ish Lucas extreme duty gun oil.
I have several friends who have had bad experiences with FireClean. I have discovered that EVERY ONE OF THEM failed to follow the proper first application instructions. FireClean doesn't share real estate with other lubes.
I've never experienced FireClean getting gummy on weapons where I've properly surface prepped. This is a real simple issue. Follow the directions and it works. Every time.
Are there other solid lubes? Sure. Do most of them cost less than FireClean per ounce? That depends... I use less FireClean per number of rounds fired than any other lube I've tried.
It may not be your thing. That's just fine. But those calling it snake oil are peddling same.
EDIT: And, yes, I've got some quarts of Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w-40 Euro spec for a rainy day. But, until then...
I think I will mix some Froglube with FireClean, Slip2000 and WeaponShied and create something new. It shall be called "Ultilube-M".
I have used break free CLP, slip 2k, slip 2k ewl, rand CLP, Mobil 1 5w-30/0w-40/15w-50, royal purple 75w-90 and 85w-140 fully syn gear oil, more synthetic EP greases of common NLGI grades than I can recall, and FireClean.
Nothing reduces friction as well WHEN DIRTY as FireClean. Nothing has been easier to clean. The only other lube that has approached FireClean in terms of lubricity when fouled is the new-ish Lucas extreme duty gun oil.
I have several friends who have had bad experiences with FireClean. I have discovered that EVERY ONE OF THEM failed to follow the proper first application inductions. FireClean doesn't share real estate with other lubes.
I've never experienced FireClean getting gummy on weapons where I've properly surface prepped. This is a real simple issue. Follow the directions and it works. Every time.
Are there other solid lubes? Sure. Do most of them cost less than FireClean per ounce? That depends... I use less FireClean per number of rounds fired than any other lube I've tried.
It may not be your thing. That's just fine. But those calling it snake oil are peddling same.
BufordTJustice
09-07-15, 22:20
I think I will mix some Froglube with FireClean, Slip2000 and WeaponShied and create something new. It shall be called "Ultilube-M".
I know one thing, YOU'LL SELL A TON OF IT. :D
I think I will mix some Froglube with FireClean, Slip2000 and WeaponShied and create something new. It shall be called "Ultilube-M".
Add make it smell like bacon and you never be able to keep up with demand.
I think I will mix some Froglube with FireClean, Slip2000 and WeaponShied and create something new. It shall be called "Ultilube-M".
FireShield2000-MSL (Minty Seal Lubrication)
Is there a lube with bacon products in it?
Is there a lube with bacon products in it?
If you could find some original Crisco. Wasn't it lard or pig fat/bacon grease basically? :D
Sent using Tapatalk for Android
It seems we have come full circle.
Eurodriver
09-08-15, 07:08
It seems we have come full circle.
Zing.
Works on my guns and the wife enjoys it as well
http://www.pasante.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Bullet-Lube_Clear-500x500-400x400.gif
jerrysimons
09-08-15, 09:10
Try fiercely on a 22LR suppressor if you doubt its ability to mitigate carbon build up...
The competitors claims in the op are dubious, instill doubt and sell alternative. So what if it is plant based! Does it work as advertised, with some benefits over other options? Yup.
Works on my guns and the wife enjoys it as well
Shit....... The debate is settled..... "Best lube there it's, what ever your weapon may be"....lol.
Works on my guns and the wife enjoys it as well
And the winner of the internet today is....... :jester:
I've used it off and on but for me atleast I didn't really see an advantage over using Mobile 1 or the like, IMO.
I am still using my first quart of mobile 1 that I purchased 5 years ago. It was a total cost of 5 dollars. I won't buy dedicated weapon lube because it looks and sounds like snake oil, especially if I can get something that is designed for high temp, high friction, dirty environments. You know, like a car engine.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?142580-FIRECLean
If it works then great. I dont like to use lubricants that have special instructions or it wont work well. Just MHO no hate.
Failure2Stop
09-08-15, 12:58
WTF is it with lube threads that they give me a headache within 3 posts?
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
WTF is it with lube threads that they give me a headache within 3 posts?
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
Thats because you are not using the proper lube and when the gears inside your brain start spinning while reading one of these threads there is too much friction causing way too much heat to build up burning off what lube you are using and causing a massive headache! :D Couldn't resist and of course this is all said in fun.
I am still using my first quart of mobile 1 that I purchased 5 years ago. It was a total cost of 5 dollars. I won't buy dedicated weapon lube because it looks and sounds like snake oil, especially if I can get something that is designed for high temp, high friction, dirty environments. You know, like a car engine.
Honestly if we could buy a gallon of fireclean for 49.95 I'd consider reconsidering. But I digress.
FC does seem to show improvements over others in some regards. Maybe something else better?
Will something better come out soon? Maybe? I'm sure something eventually will. Will it matter when people bitch about prices that are far too trivial in the scheme of things that is far more minute in comparing simple ammo choices? Lube is cheap, use what works best for you. When the cost difference is less than a penny per round or less than a penny per full 30 round magazine, what kind of hairs are you splitting?
Really guys, I like shooting guns more than cleaning them. If it helps me have a better time doing what I like is better to me than saving a penny to work harder for something I don't need to be doing, the choices become clearer.
Berserkr556
09-08-15, 18:34
I like to laugh at the Fireclean guys who say, "I can clean my BCG with a paper towel." My response is so can I can it costs me less which means more money for ammo. They remind me of the guys cheering for piston ARs that always said, "I can shoot my AR and pull the BCG out and hold it in my hand." So can I with my gas gun. I don't use Crisco and I'm not going to use fireclean or any other new wonder lube someone hawks as the best
BillyJack556
09-08-15, 18:41
Watch this test on Fireclean, it does not lubricate and reduce friction well at all with pressure applied.
It's $7.50 per ounce, has a shelf life of one year and "conditions" but does not protect.
Not something I'm interested in using on my guns, I'll stick with Weapon Shield and M-pro 7.
No comments on Georges looks. Yes hes a biker and likes tats but he has forgotten more about lubricants than most on here know. His youtube page has tests on Slip and most of the other lubes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abBKYE8lP7o
You guys must have missed my point. I don't care if it's best now, or was the best. The price point issue is useless to me, I don't use enough to compare in round count that it makes a difference. For a non suppressed AR-15, I spend 10-15 minutes in cleanup to get ready for the next course or whatever. Sometimes suppressed guns take me a few more minutes, like 5 more, but surgically clean is not required for function.
If you have a quicker remedial action, let me know.
Berserkr556
09-08-15, 19:06
I like George and I have tats so he looks like a regular American to me. I use Weapon Shield on several ARs, AKs and FALs and like it a lot. I have another AR I use only Slip2000 EWL and carbon killer and I have another AR I use M-Pro7 on. I bought the Weapon Shield and received the Slip and M-Pro7 free. I'm trying to figure out which one to stick with. They all work good so it's a hard choice.
Watch this test on Fireclean, it does not lubricate and reduce friction well at all with pressure applied.
It's $7.50 per ounce, has a shelf life of one year and "conditions" but does not protect.
Not something I'm interested in using on my guns, I'll stick with Weapon Shield and M-pro 7.
No comments on Georges looks. Yes hes a biker and likes tats but he has forgotten more about lubricants than most on here know. His youtube page has tests on Slip and most of the other lubes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abBKYE8lP7o
Berserkr556
09-08-15, 19:11
I only spend 5 minutes cleaning my AR tops. I run a pull through in the bore, clean the BCG with a rag or paper towel run a dry patch down the bore and reassemble. Sometimes I may twist a chamber brush but it takes no more than 5 minutes.
You guys must have missed my point. I don't care if it's best now, or was the best. The price point issue is useless to me, I don't use enough to compare in round count that it makes a difference. For a non suppressed AR-15, I spend 10-15 minutes in cleanup to get ready for the next course or whatever. Sometimes suppressed guns take me a few more minutes, like 5 more, but surgically clean is not required for function.
If you have a quicker remedial action, let me know.
Do what you like then. If you think that is sufficient, then do it so. I have my my own means so I may look into a quick cleaning of items of usability or function or operation. Do as you will. I know mine fine, thanks.
If you make the incorrect assumption that mine isn't appropriate, then what is the comparison to? I've run many Colt carbines past their peak. Please reference my issues.
All I know is that Fireclean just works, if it really is just rebranded veggie oil then oh well, I won't stop using it. I've done some pretty intensive testing (20,000 rounds in 10 days kind of testing) and nothing stay on longer and cleans up easier. Not Slip2000, not Mpro7, not Froglube, not mobile 1, not gunzilla, nothing else compares in my opinion. Sure mobile 1 may be cheaper, but it blows and burns off a hell of a lot faster, plus when running suppressed who likes to breathe in atomized petroleum particles?
BillyJack556
09-08-15, 19:46
I like George and I have tats so he looks like a regular American to me. I use Weapon Shield on several ARs, AKs and FALs and like it a lot. I have another AR I use only Slip2000 EWL and carbon killer and I have another AR I use M-Pro7 on. I bought the Weapon Shield and received the Slip and M-Pro7 free. I'm trying to figure out which one to stick with. They all work good so it's a hard choice.
Here is a link for the Slip 2000 EWL, Lucas and weapon shield comparison. George gets into reasons why Motor oil is made for engines and not firearms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcBu6q61G3M
Watch this test on Fireclean, it does not lubricate and reduce friction well at all with pressure applied.
It's $7.50 per ounce, has a shelf life of one year and "conditions" but does not protect.
Not something I'm interested in using on my guns, I'll stick with Weapon Shield and M-pro 7.
No comments on Georges looks. Yes hes a biker and likes tats but he has forgotten more about lubricants than most on here know. His youtube page has tests on Slip and most of the other lubes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abBKYE8lP7o
A couple of questions after viewing that test, I'm not inclined to watch his other videos, and perhaps some of you have.
Exactly what parts of the rifle are under that same stress? I could see that test if we were building engines with roller or journal bearings in them, but the last I looked the AR doesn't have any roller, ball or journal bearings in the design specs.
Did you notice how he didn't show the bearing after he tested his oil? Does he after any of his other tests?
Wonder what the results would have been if he had used Sunnen honing oil?
Do any of these guys test using independent labs?
BillyJack556
09-08-15, 22:54
A couple of questions after viewing that test, I'm not inclined to watch his other videos, and perhaps some of you have.
Exactly what parts of the rifle are under that same stress? I could see that test if we were building engines with roller or journal bearings in them, but the last I looked the AR doesn't have any roller, ball or journal bearings in the design specs.
Did you notice how he didn't show the bearing after he tested his oil? Does he after any of his other tests?
Wonder what the results would have been if he had used Sunnen honing oil?
Do any of these guys test using independent labs?
Yes he does with a new spot on the roller bearing and it is tiny in comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcBu6q61G3M
It is called load stress and the Falex machine is one of the setups used in the industry to test it. Metal is metal be it in a roller bearing or firearm, if it is allowed to touch it will wear faster. A good oil will provide lubrication under high load and prevent metal to metal contact. No one has an AR mock up testing machine that I know of so they use what is already available. Since the oils are tested the same way it becomes a basis for comparison.
The barrel locking surfaces on a semi auto pistol, cam pin and carrier surfaces, bolt and barrel lugs on an AR as well as trigger sear surfaces etc. When a weapon fires parts are pushed together with force. Why does the cam pin wear so much? High load.
Does every firearm surface have it, no but given a choice I'd sure rather have an oil that I know will lubricate under those circumstances.
Everyone that uses weapon shield knows the quality of the oil and it's not just high load. It sticks to surfaces under high heat and doesn't burn off. Keeps dirt off the surfaces and makes for easy clean up and protects against rust. Don't take my word for it, read what fellow site members have to say about it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?15373-Weapon-Shield-CLP-10-Month-Review
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?8899-weapon-shield
If you don't believe Fireclean is vegetable oil read the patent, here is how to find it:
Patent application number is 20150017346 and called "VEGETABLE OILS, VEGETABLE OIL BLENDS, AND METHODS OF USE THEREOF"
I use the USPTO simple search function for patent application files. 2 words "firearm" and "lubricant" in any field. Came up with 150 or so results but this one was near the top and the applicants were Dave and Ed so I figured I had the right one. You can then enter this number into what the USPTO calls Public PAIRS and follow the progress of the application in the file wrapper tab. This one hasn't even started to be examined yet.
I use Fireclean quite extensively, and like others on here have been satisfied with its results. I have to admit I'm not a big fan of the type of advertising that the owner, Mr. Fennel (sp?) is doing.
Do you have any type of relationship to Weaponshield beyond that of satisfied consumer? The reason I ask is that you seem to be pursuing this pretty hard.
Picking the right lubricant for your use is important. Folk's needs differ, and many stick with something because it meets their perceived needs.
When we were racing I used to pay a pretty penny for an oil called CraMac, because I could see on the tach downloads that it let my grandson pull more RPM's out of the corner. There are many variables that could have entered into that, tire prep, what the track surface had been treated with, etc. but eliminating the other variables as much as possible it seemed that the oil made an observable RPM difference. Other's disagreed just as vehemently as some have on here. I stayed with CraMac because it met my needs.
In my experience, everything that I lube my firearm with has worked. Fireclean seems to make it easier to clean, so at this time it meets my needs.
BillyJack556
09-09-15, 01:11
I use Fireclean quite extensively, and like others on here have been satisfied with its results. I have to admit I'm not a big fan of the type of advertising that the owner, Mr. Fennel (sp?) is doing.
Do you have any type of relationship to Weaponshield beyond that of satisfied consumer? The reason I ask is that you seem to be pursuing this pretty hard.
Picking the right lubricant for your use is important. Folk's needs differ, and many stick with something because it meets their perceived needs.
When we were racing I used to pay a pretty penny for an oil called CraMac, because I could see on the tach downloads that it let my grandson pull more RPM's out of the corner. There are many variables that could have entered into that, tire prep, what the track surface had been treated with, etc. but eliminating the other variables as much as possible it seemed that the oil made an observable RPM difference. Other's disagreed just as vehemently as some have on here. I stayed with CraMac because it met my needs.
In my experience, everything that I lube my firearm with has worked. Fireclean seems to make it easier to clean, so at this time it meets my needs.
Just a satisfied customer, started out with Georges first FP-10 in the early 90's after my competition set trigger maker recommended it for sear lube. Was so impressed I started using it although over the next 25 years I tried all the boutique oils that appeared trying to find something better to take it's place.
A couple came close but none were better and I tried almost all of them. When Weapon Shield came out it was better so I switched to it. I am currently trying M-Pro 7 which looks promising. I too initially thought George's advertising was over the top but got over that when I just couldn't quit using his oil. He is a funny duck but he does know how to make oil.
One thing I did learn from his latest videos is his opinion on grease. He makes and sells his own grease but basically says grease belongs in wheel bearings not firearms. He believes his oil stays in place so well that grease is not needed and all it does is collect every piece of dust and dirt around the weapon and limits cold temp performance. He is right about the oil staying in place. I have tried Fireclean and it isn't bad but I don't find it better than Shield or M-Pro 7 especially in longer term storage and protection.
Tell you what, try a small bottle and compare it to Fireclean. George will refund your $ and shipping if you are not satisfied no questions asked. I think it will clean up as good or better than Fireclean. Post here if George is BS or not. You might be surprised.:)
Yes he does with a new spot on the roller bearing and it is tiny in comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcBu6q61G3M
It is called load stress and the Falex machine is one of the setups used in the industry to test it. Metal is metal be it in a roller bearing or firearm, if it is allowed to touch it will wear faster. A good oil will provide lubrication under high load and prevent metal to metal contact. No one has an AR mock up testing machine that I know of so they use what is already available. Since the oils are tested the same way it becomes a basis for comparison.
The barrel locking surfaces on a semi auto pistol, cam pin and carrier surfaces, bolt and barrel lugs on an AR as well as trigger sear surfaces etc. When a weapon fires parts are pushed together with force. Why does the cam pin wear so much? High load.
Does every firearm surface have it, no but given a choice I'd sure rather have an oil that I know will lubricate under those circumstances.
Everyone that uses weapon shield knows the quality of the oil and it's not just high load. It sticks to surfaces under high heat and doesn't burn off. Keeps dirt off the surfaces and makes for easy clean up and protects against rust. Don't take my word for it, read what fellow site members have to say about it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?15373-Weapon-Shield-CLP-10-Month-Review
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?8899-weapon-shield
If you don't believe Fireclean is vegetable oil read the patent, here is how to find it:
Patent application number is 20150017346 and called "VEGETABLE OILS, VEGETABLE OIL BLENDS, AND METHODS OF USE THEREOF"
I use the USPTO simple search function for patent application files. 2 words "firearm" and "lubricant" in any field. Came up with 150 or so results but this one was near the top and the applicants were Dave and Ed so I figured I had the right one. You can then enter this number into what the USPTO calls Public PAIRS and follow the progress of the application in the file wrapper tab. This one hasn't even started to be examined yet.
What I found most interesting is that SLIP 2000 EWL, which is claimed by SLIP to have a 4500# FALEX load capacity seized on his machine at only a few pounds, right about the same as FIRECLean, so can we presume that FIREClean has a similar FALEX capacity, and that WEaponshield, by extrapolation, is something like 100,000#? I just don't know how to correlate his results with any ASTM-D test.
Just a satisfied customer, started out with Georges first FP-10 in the early 90's after my competition set trigger maker recommended it for sear lube. Was so impressed I started using it although over the next 25 years I tried all the boutique oils that appeared trying to find something better to take it's place.
A couple came close but none were better and I tried almost all of them. When Weapon Shield came out it was better so I switched to it. I am currently trying M-Pro 7 which looks promising. I too initially thought George's advertising was over the top but got over that when I just couldn't quit using his oil. He is a funny duck but he does know how to make oil.
One thing I did learn from his latest videos is his opinion on grease. He makes and sells his own grease but basically says grease belongs in wheel bearings not firearms. He believes his oil stays in place so well that grease is not needed and all it does is collect every piece of dust and dirt around the weapon and limits cold temp performance. He is right about the oil staying in place. I have tried Fireclean and it isn't bad but I don't find it better than Shield or M-Pro 7 especially in longer term storage and protection.
Tell you what, try a small bottle and compare it to Fireclean. George will refund your $ and shipping if you are not satisfied no questions asked. I think it will clean up as good or better than Fireclean. Post here if George is BS or not. You might be surprised.:)
I have compared WS to FIREClean, and have no emotional attachments to either. I have come to the conclusion that WS is a massive improvement over "CLP" from Breakfree, but that Fireclean does much better on my suppressed guns. The other oil I am currently testing is Lucas Extreme Duty Gun Oil, and it also seems to do VERY well when carbon fouling is introduced to the mix. My complaint with Weaponshield is that it gets "gritty" very fast when carbon is introduced to the equation. Otherwise, it's an amazingly effective product.
We bought bought WeaponShield when I was in Iraq by the gallons. It worked very well for our purposes. It was used on everything from AK's-M4s, PKM's, etc...
I haven't done any suppressed shooting with the Fireclean yet. That is still coming.
I understand we all take pride in our guns, and only want what's best for them, but in my personal opinion, If you have a quality firearm that you properly maintain, I don't think the lube you're using is going to make a whole lot of difference. If the latest and greatest blue smurf jizz lube is working out for you, then go ahead and use it.
Berserkr556
09-09-15, 10:31
I make no assumptions. I was just responding to your statement that it takes you 10 to 15 minutes and then you said if you have a quicker way let me know. Just throwing a quicker way out there. No disrespect intended Sir. Hell I'm just a hilljack that shoots a lot and by a lot I mean a lot.
Do what you like then. If you think that is sufficient, then do it so. I have my my own means so I may look into a quick cleaning of items of usability or function or operation. Do as you will. I know mine fine, thanks.
If you make the incorrect assumption that mine isn't appropriate, then what is the comparison to? I've run many Colt carbines past their peak. Please reference my issues.
Doc Safari
09-09-15, 10:59
The thing to do would be to purchase a bottle of Canola oil or something and see how that works as a lube. All this specific gravity mumbo jumbo is just flat out irrelevent.
The thing to do would be to purchase a bottle of Canola oil or something and see how that works as a lube. All this specific gravity mumbo jumbo is just flat out irrelevent.
It is directly relevant to the topic at hand.
Tomahawk_Ghost
09-09-15, 13:01
Not to get off topic but isn't Frog Lube just Petrol Gel used in meat processing machinery?
BTW, Fireclean could use this in their next advertising campaign.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/Cross_Steel/fatguy2_zpsngbtcxf6.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/Cross_Steel/media/fatguy2_zpsngbtcxf6.jpg.html)
BufordTJustice
09-09-15, 13:16
Watch this test on Fireclean, it does not lubricate and reduce friction well at all with pressure applied.
It's $7.50 per ounce, has a shelf life of one year and "conditions" but does not protect.
Not something I'm interested in using on my guns, I'll stick with Weapon Shield and M-pro 7.
No comments on Georges looks. Yes hes a biker and likes tats but he has forgotten more about lubricants than most on here know. His youtube page has tests on Slip and most of the other lubes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abBKYE8lP7o
There's a reason this is no longer accepted as an ASTM test standard. The test can be structured to favor one lubricant over another due to how quickly pressure is applied.
You know what beats weapon shield by a mile?
SHAMPOO.
The four ball bearing test is the new standard for A REASON.
BufordTJustice
09-09-15, 13:21
Falex test exposed on video.
https://youtu.be/q5WXbj5jbN8
I've used FP-10 and SLIP2000 both for the last 4-5 years. I do like the fact that you can get the SLIP in a few different weights as to get it to stay where you put it. When my current supply of FP-10 ran out I bought Weaponshield as it's more reminiscent to the old FP-10 (at least in smell). I can't say I've really noticed a difference in function of any of my weapons between the two but I can say that FP-10 and Weaponshield seem to pull more crud out of my bores than any other CLP type product. It seems even after I clean a gun and come back with a wet patch I can still get some crud out.
Honestly for most of us on here (or any enthusiast) just about any of these are going to work just fine. Not a fan of Froglube (gummy) and for some reason my bottle of Militec seems to smell rancid.
BufordTJustice
09-09-15, 13:32
4 ball ASTM-D test explained.
https://youtu.be/kEv1hSJTQTM
And I should clarify; I do not dislike weapon shield. I dislike the way it is marketed. It certainly appears to be better than std CLP.
There's a reason this is no longer accepted as an ASTM test standard. The test can be structured to favor one lubricant over another due to how quickly pressure is applied.
You know what beats weapon shield by a mile?
SHAMPOO.
The four ball bearing test is the new standard for A REASON.
So what you're really saying is I should add food coloring to Johnson and Johnsons baby shampoo and make a killing selling it for $20 an ounce.
skijunkie55
09-09-15, 14:46
So what you're really saying is I should add food coloring to Johnson and Johnsons baby shampoo and make a killing selling it for $20 an ounce.
Just make sure you use the tear free kind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm1K68PuYBY
Averageman
09-09-15, 15:03
A bit off topic but perhaps not.
I was working with some Gentlemen who had split open a turbine engine to repair it. It was all very impressive to me, extremely clean shop, lots of light and warm and dry environment.
Just as everything is about to be reassembled one of these very talented guys pulls a tub of Crisco out of his tool box and begins lubing everything that is going back together.
I was a bit taken aback, but they reassured me it was the best lubricant for the purpose.
BillyJack556
09-09-15, 15:07
There's a reason this is no longer accepted as an ASTM test standard. The test can be structured to favor one lubricant over another due to how quickly pressure is applied.
You know what beats weapon shield by a mile?
SHAMPOO.
The four ball bearing test is the new standard for A REASON.
Read the comments on youtube where they timed the speed that the pressure is applied. The WS pressure was applied faster than FC past the point where FC failed and then George applies the pressure slowly up to 25 lbs. So WS had already beaten FC by the time he slowed down. Regardless some of the other videos show him apply WS pressure much faster with the same results. Falex may be an old method but it still gives a base line comparison which is what George stated.
If Shampoo beats WS by a mile then it beats FC by a continent!
Falex test exposed on video.
https://youtu.be/q5WXbj5jbN8
I watched that before I made my post yesterday. Remember that video is made by one of the original Snake Oil oil sales companys, Amsoil. They didn't even clean the previous oil off the roller, race and reservoir or clean the galled metal on the race from the roller before the next test as George does.
In any case we are off topic on whether FC is vegetable oil or not. Seems that answer is yes as confirmed by their own patent. Folks will have to decide for themselves if they want to use it on their weapons as well as their french fries.
What is it about lube threads that bring out the 20 page discussions?
I'm glad Mobil 1 remains to be as cheap as it is.
Can we just get someone brave enough to use Crisco Vegetable Oil as a lube and report back on how it performs?
Hell, I would do it right now I had any crisco sitting around haha
I was working in a local gunshop five or six years back when the weaponshield guy came in to demo it with the little machine they use.
Weaponshield beat everything that they tried until he tried some Tetra lube we had. Damn near flipped his machine off of the counter trying to wear the bearing. He seemed very surprised, said he never heard of the stuff.
Myself, I've been using leftover Federal Mogul engine assembly lube on lots of stuff. Seems to work better than anything I've used.
So what you're really saying is I should add food coloring to Johnson and Johnsons baby shampoo and make a killing selling it for $20 an ounce.
You jest but I have a friend with several patents on specialty lubricants. He claims that manufacturers ad scents and coloring to prevent the buyer form knowing what really is. ATF is a very good lubricant and solvent right out of the can. You add a couple of drops of mint and cinnamon oil and voila... You made $2 a quart oil into $4 an ounce oil with the right marketing!! It is done every day!
Doc Safari
09-09-15, 15:54
You jest but I have a friend with several patents on specialty lubricants. He claims that manufacturers ad scents and coloring to prevent the buyer form knowing what really is. ATF is a very good lubricant and solvent right out of the can. You add a couple of drops of mint and cinnamon oil and voila... You made $2 a quart oil into $4 an ounce oil with the right marketing!! It is done every day!
I believe it. I can't remember which brand for sure it's been so many years since I've used it (Sheath maybe?), but a $10 brand of gun lube smelled just like WD-40 and other people who used it in my presence made the same comment.
Manufacturers do it all the time, I'm certain.
wetidlerjr
09-09-15, 16:37
I use this: G-OIL 5W-30 (http://www.getg.com/G-OIL/bio-based_full_synthetic_motor_oil.php)
For grease I mix the above with beeswax. Of course, you can vary the amount of beeswax used to get the thickness desired. I've been using this for a couple of years with no problems. Completely bio-degradable and eco-friendly. YMMV
BufordTJustice
09-09-15, 16:42
Read the comments on youtube where they timed the speed that the pressure is applied. The WS pressure was applied faster than FC past the point where FC failed and then George applies the pressure slowly up to 25 lbs. So WS had already beaten FC by the time he slowed down. Regardless some of the other videos show him apply WS pressure much faster with the same results. Falex may be an old method but it still gives a base line comparison which is what George stated.
If Shampoo beats WS by a mile then it beats FC by a continent!
I watched that before I made my post yesterday. Remember that video is made by one of the original Snake Oil oil sales companys, Amsoil. They didn't even clean the previous oil off the roller, race and reservoir or clean the galled metal on the race from the roller before the next test as George does.
In any case we are off topic on whether FC is vegetable oil or not. Seems that answer is yes as confirmed by their own patent. Folks will have to decide for themselves if they want to use it on their weapons as well as their french fries.
George comes across as a scam artist, using a manipulatable test, not performed or verified by a third party, to show that his product is "the best" and you're alleging that SOMEBODY ELSE is a snake oil peddler?
Gotcha.
EDIT: NOBODY has verified the hardness of each bearing prior to testing or afterward, there is no protocol for the application of torque over time, there is no precise accounting for ambient temperature/pressure/humidity, there is no verification of motor speed during the test. I could go on.
And, this only accounts for one aspect of a lubricant's job. Suspension of contaminants, creation of soot due to localized high heat, volatility (burn off), deposit formation during burn off, oxidation, byproducts of atomization, etc.
Passing one test does not have anything to do with these other requirements.
Testing and performance on hard used weapons carries more weight with me than laboratory tests.
I could propose a test. I know of a known action mass that will cycle a cleaned and lubed 6920 well, but fails fairly consistently when fouled. One could add a high barrel reversion can to accelerate the fouling to limit rounds and time needed to test. One could test 6-8 rifles with some ease.
The information needed would be what baseline lube and application to use. Ammunition selection, for myself, this would be LC M193. The other possible lubes used and it's proper application. Then the rotation of lubes vs the base guns, i.e. test each with each, or random selection.
This wouldn't be a 100% test, but a possible guide as a trend to see a possible gain or loss in lubes depending. If there's enough interest and 4-5 lubes are used, given 2-4 weeks, this could be done.
Is anybody interested? Give me a few lubes to compare? Could be most any conventional lube to cooking sprays and oils, but I need the method of application.
I do not post often, but I read here everyday and shoot OFTEN. Not high volume, but at least a couple times a week and sometimes 3 times a week. An average range session at the farm includes anywhere from 60-120 rounds of 5.56 and 20-30 rounds of 9mm. I shoot a DDM4V7 and a Rainier Arms RUC mod2. Having used both Weaponshield and, more recently, FireClean, I can say that both have functioned as advertised and that I have seen no lubrication or corrosion related issues out of either rifle. With approximately 400-600 rounds between cleanings, this probably does not give a great indication of each products usefulness in hard-use situations, but from what I have personally experienced, I would not hesitate to use either or both.
Just by feel, the WS seems a little more viscous and "slippery" than FC, but that is just an opinion and a very unscientific one at that. FC works just fine for me and provides easy cleanup after a few hundred rounds. WS stays put well, and is also easy to clean up after a few hundred rounds. I will say that both perform better (IMO) than a homemade concoction of ATF, synthetic motor oil, and STP oil treatment that a former artillery guy gave me to try. It is slippery as all get out, but after a few rounds, it seems to break down, cook off, or otherwise go somewhere other than where I want it - leaving the bolt tail dry and carbon coated at the next cleaning.
Conjecture and opinions being what they are, I believe you try a few products and go with what works best for your environment and duty profile.
So where does one buy that foodlube stuff found in post 93? Looks like shaving cream.
BufordTJustice
09-09-15, 17:35
I just realized that I already HAVE some weapon shield. Bought it right here on the forum and then forgot I had it.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=168575
I'll start evaluating it next week.
wetidlerjr
09-09-15, 17:37
So where does one buy that foodlube stuff found in post 93? Looks like shaving cream.
Its from the UK. This is the only US distributor for the company but I didn't see Foodlube listed on their site.
Distributor
Indestructible Paint, Inc.
1 Independence Drive
Monroe CT 06468
Phone: 203 880 9130
Email: sales@indestructiblepaint.com
Website: www.indestructiblepaint.com
BoringGuy45
09-09-15, 17:38
What is it about lube threads that bring out the 20 page discussions?
I'm glad Mobil 1 remains to be as cheap as it is.
Probably because there's so many options, and each has pros and cons.
For me, FireClean has thus far worked as advertised. My guns feel smooth, show little wear, and I can clean them by literally just wiping. Though it's more expensive, I've had one bottle for 2 years that isn't even half empty. Supposedly FC is only supposed to be mediocre as a preservative, and the bottle warns that use of other products may reduce its effectiveness. But that hasn't been an issue for me just yet. The one thing I like about products like these are that they are non-toxic. One of my cats REALLY likes it when I clean my guns for some reason. I feel safer working with FC than Hoppes and motor oil when she's trying to roll around on the paper towel I'm using! :D.
If it's nothing more than rebranded Crisco, then all the better. I'll get myself some from Giant and save a shitload of cash!
Berserkr556
09-09-15, 17:50
I always wanted to sell bacon grease as a lube but I couldn't figure out how to get rid of the smell. I had it all planned out. I would put the bacon grease in small tubes and the directions for the AR would state to heat the grease until it became a liquid then apply. For rifles that use grease like the M14 etc. you'd just apply as is. I knew it wouldn't work unless I could get rid of the bacon scent so I gave up. I did try it and I'll be damned if it didn't work and worked well.
BillyJack556
09-09-15, 18:18
George comes across as a scam artist, using a manipulatable test, not performed or verified by a third party, to show that his product is "the best" and you're alleging that SOMEBODY ELSE is a snake oil peddler?
Gotcha.
EDIT: NOBODY has verified the hardness of each bearing prior to testing or afterward, there is no protocol for the application of torque over time, there is no precise accounting for ambient temperature/pressure/humidity, there is no verification of motor speed during the test. I could go on.
And, this only accounts for one aspect of a lubricant's job. Suspension of contaminants, creation of soot due to localized high heat, volatility (burn off), deposit formation during burn off, oxidation, byproducts of atomization, etc.
We get it, you think George and his oil is a scam. Problem for your theory is thousands of people use and like WS and will flat out tell a person who has never even tried it that it is not a scam.
Suggestion for you. Instead of insinuating that a man and his oil and tests are a scam it might be wise to actually use the stuff yourself first. It might save you some embarrassment.
Failure2Stop
09-09-15, 18:22
If anyone really believes that pure lubricity is the most important function of a firearm lubricant (yes, I am aware of the irony of that), please be advised that you are wrong. Further, if you think that lubricating the exterior of the carrier is relevant, be advised that you are wrong.
If these statements don't make sense to you, be advised that further study on the operating system of the AR is in order.
If you don't understand why introducing motor oil to the circulatory system is bad, don't condemn those that do.
Rub whatever magic potion you want to into your guns, I'll stick to that which works and doesn't hurt me or my customers.
ETA: I sincerely wish that Crisco does what FC does. Practical application proves otherwise.
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
Berserkr556
09-09-15, 18:28
I am not arguing and no disrespect intended but there is a need for lube on the outside of the BCG. Not the entire BCG but the BCG rails should be lubed because this is the only part that interfaces with the upper. If I'm wrong then please advise.
Further, if you think that lubricating the exterior of the carrier is relevant, be advised that you are wrong.
Failure2Stop
09-09-15, 18:31
To be clear, I'm talking about carbon accumulation on the rails impeding operation. Fill that gap with elmers glue and you'll have an issue once it hardens.
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
jaybirdritenour2
09-09-15, 18:56
To be clear, I'm talking about carbon accumulation on the rails impeding operation. Fill that gap with elmers glue and you'll have an issue once it hardens.
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
I thought the whole carrier needs lube to function with a high round count( reliably). I believe tbe design can fire 250+( or some number) rounds without lube but if you want it to be reliable after that count it needs lube. And especially imoprtant shooting suppressed.
BufordTJustice
09-09-15, 19:04
We get it, you think George and his oil is a scam. Problem for your theory is thousands of people use and like WS and will flat out tell a person who has never even tried it that it is not a scam.
Suggestion for you. Instead of insinuating that a man and his oil and tests are a scam it might be wise to actually use the stuff yourself first. It might save you some embarrassment.
You might want to read my most current post, #109.
George comes across as a scam artist, using a manipulatable test, not performed or verified by a third party, to show that his product is "the best" and you're alleging that SOMEBODY ELSE is a snake oil peddler?
Gotcha.
EDIT: NOBODY has verified the hardness of each bearing prior to testing or afterward, there is no protocol for the application of torque over time, there is no precise accounting for ambient temperature/pressure/humidity, there is no verification of motor speed during the test. I could go on.
And, this only accounts for one aspect of a lubricant's job. Suspension of contaminants, creation of soot due to localized high heat, volatility (burn off), deposit formation during burn off, oxidation, byproducts of atomization, etc.
Passing one test does not have anything to do with these other requirements.
I work for a third party test lab (not lubricants). I have not used WS and do not know whether it is a good lubricant for my needs. But, due to my experiences, I am always skeptical of results from testing performed by the party with a financial interest in the results. In my line of work, it can be too easy to manipulate testing to obtain favorable results.
Comparison studies make great marketing tools, assuming your product comes out on top. Send WS into an independent lab along with samples from the competition.
BillyJack556
09-09-15, 20:11
I work for a third party test lab (not lubricants). I have not used WS and do not know whether it is a good lubricant for my needs. But, due to my experiences, I am always skeptical of results from testing performed by the party with a financial interest in the results. In my line of work, it can be too easy to manipulate testing to obtain favorable results.
Comparison studies make great marketing tools, assuming your product comes out on top. Send WS into an independent lab along with samples from the competition.
That is a good idea. Do it and let us know the results, then we will all know the truth.
TexasAggie2005
09-09-15, 20:43
That is a good idea. Do it and let us know the results, then we will all know the truth.
Why would anybody other than the manufacturer want to pay for that? For how much independent tests cost; I could buy enough lube to last my lifetime, with enough leftover for my great-grandkid's spaceship. Just to substantiate a manufacturer's claim? No thanks.
If part of Weaponsheild's marketing strategy is the put down of other brands by using a contrived test, I'm not buying into it.
BillyJack556
09-09-15, 21:09
Why would anybody other than the manufacturer want to pay for that? For how much independent tests cost; I could buy enough lube to last my lifetime, with enough leftover for my great-grandkid's spaceship. Just to substantiate a manufacturer's claim? No thanks.
If part of Weaponsheild's marketing strategy is the put down of other brands by using a contrived test, I'm not buying into it.
I don't know, you would have to ask Agnostic, he thought of the testing. I wouldn't do it, I already like and use the oil.
There is no proof of a contrived test at this point, only hearsay.
Maybe you could afford a small bottle, try it and then give us your opinion.
In the end you wouldn't really be buying into it since George will refund your money including shipping if you are unsatisfied in any way. Who knows maybe it will become your new oil of choice if you give it a chance.
If part of Weaponsheild's marketing strategy is the put down of other brands by using a contrived test, I'm not buying into it.
This. When a company attacks another competitor like this it gives me a bad taste in my mouth, and removes any desire to purchase their product.
If your stuff if so good then promote that instead of under cutting another.
So, no one has actually ran the stuff through a GC or IR spec yet? I'll try to get some info this week and see what connections I have.
Where's the cheapest place to buy fireclean? I don't need much.
So the claim is fireclean = Crisco brand "vegetable oil".
Any modification or additives = false. Seems pretty simple to me.
I have no doubt Weaponshield works. I am good friends with two of their sponsored shooters and not a single person I know has been disappointed by it. But I don't trust tests not done by a neutral third party.
Probably because there's so many options, and each has pros and cons.
For me, FireClean has thus far worked as advertised. My guns feel smooth, show little wear, and I can clean them by literally just wiping. Though it's more expensive, I've had one bottle for 2 years that isn't even half empty. Supposedly FC is only supposed to be mediocre as a preservative, and the bottle warns that use of other products may reduce its effectiveness. But that hasn't been an issue for me just yet. The one thing I like about products like these are that they are non-toxic. One of my cats REALLY likes it when I clean my guns for some reason. I feel safer working with FC than Hoppes and motor oil when she's trying to roll around on the paper towel I'm using! :D.
If it's nothing more than rebranded Crisco, then all the better. I'll get myself some from Giant and save a shitload of cash!
I took some nails and stripper clips and treated them with FIREClean and other products and left them outside in Louisiana from something like October to January. The FIREClean nail and stripper clip still had shiny and un-rusted areas/park on them, after snow, rain, sleet, etc. It was flat-out amazing.
So, no one has actually ran the stuff through a GC or IR spec yet? I'll try to get some info this week and see what connections I have.
Where's the cheapest place to buy fireclean? I don't need much.
So the claim is fireclean = Crisco brand "vegetable oil".
Any modification or additives = false. Seems pretty simple to me.
The cheapest place is me. I'll send you some for free if you're going to run it through spec.
TexasAggie2005
09-10-15, 08:58
There is no proof of a contrived test at this point, only hearsay.
I trust nothing short of a certified, independent 3rd party test. I'm not saying Weaponsheild is lying, but nor am I saying I trust their tests.
Maybe you could afford a small bottle, try it and then give us your opinion.
I can afford it, but honestly I have enough other lubes that perform well enough for my needs.
In the end you wouldn't really be buying into it since George will refund your money including shipping if you are unsatisfied in any way.
Man, you sure are trying to sell this stuff.
Who knows maybe it will become your new oil of choice if you give it a chance.
Not likely. As stated before, his marketing technique completely turns me off. And I currently don't need lube.
wow...and I read this whoooole thread...
Doc Safari
09-10-15, 14:07
...if you think that lubricating the exterior of the carrier is relevant, be advised that you are wrong.
If these statements don't make sense to you, be advised that further study on the operating system of the AR is in order.
Please clarify this. Going all the way back to my first AR and that silly Vietnam-era comic book I have believed that the rails of the bolt carrier should be lubed. If that's not the case then please explain because oiling the outside of the carrier creates the biggest mess reassembling the gun, splashing oil in your face when firing, etc.
If you don't understand why introducing motor oil to the circulatory system is bad, don't condemn those that do.
I have always intuitively suspected it was a no-no, but I'd love to hear the actual reasoning behind it.
The cheapest place is me. I'll send you some for free if you're going to run it through spec.
Cool. Let me find out on my end what's available and how much we'll need, and I'll get back to you. I honestly don't mind buying it for science.
From my perspective, the quote in the OP (not the ops words, but who he quoted) seemed extreme, but the patent seems to say otherwise, so I just want to know. No use speculating anymore IMO.
BufordTJustice
09-10-15, 16:34
Cool. Let me find out on my end what's available and how much we'll need, and I'll get back to you. I honestly don't mind buying it for science.
From my perspective, the quote in the OP (not the ops words, but who he quoted) seemed extreme, but the patent seems to say otherwise, so I just want to know. No use speculating anymore IMO.
I'll send you a 1oz bottle of weapon shield on my dime if you'd be willing to test that as well.
I'll send a 1 oz bottle of crisco vegetable oil. Just saying.
I have some sample packets of Fireclean that were sent to me I can send out.
Cool. Let me find out on my end what's available and how much we'll need, and I'll get back to you. I honestly don't mind buying it for science.
From my perspective, the quote in the OP (not the ops words, but who he quoted) seemed extreme, but the patent seems to say otherwise, so I just want to know. No use speculating anymore IMO.
Leonidas24
09-10-15, 23:24
Spoke with my physics and forensic science professor this morning after class and secured a GC and spectrophotometer for testing. It likely won't be until next week that I can accomplish any real testing but when someone has some meaningful results to post I'll write them into the lab report so as to have something to compare to.
I had to go do some final D60 validation yesterday.
MK18 Mod 0, KAC NT4. We set the gun up to run on the ragged edge with a very high ROF for a specific purpose.
I used Fireclean to lube it beforehand, we fired 660 rounds (11 drums, full-auto), letting the gun cool to a reasonable temp. every 180 rounds.
The gun was obviously nasty, but the lube stayed where it was and it ran flawlessly. It cleaned up easily.
Summary:
Lube stayed put
Lube lubed the gun under less than ideal conditions
Lube didn't burn off
I don't care if it's made from vegetable oil, or unicorn tears, or Bruce Jenner's leftover eyeliner. if it's safe and it works well, I'm happy with it.
Spoke with my physics and forensic science professor this morning after class and secured a GC and spectrophotometer for testing. It likely won't be until next week that I can accomplish any real testing but when someone has some meaningful results to post I'll write them into the lab report so as to have something to compare to.
Sh%$ just got real!
I don't care if it's made from vegetable oil, or unicorn tears, or Bruce Jenner's leftover eyeliner.
Jesus I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that.
That's the funniest thing i read in a while.
:sarcastic:Maybe someone should run a test on Bruce Jenner's leftover eyeliner. Who's going to volunteer to obtain a sample?
Sh%$ just got real!
That's good, mine aren't looking too good. There is a lab I could pay for it at, but i think it's around $100 for gc and $200 for ir spec
Charlie Don't Surf
09-11-15, 15:39
I had to go do some final D60 validation yesterday.
MK18 Mod 0, KAC NT4. We set the gun up to run on the ragged edge with a very high ROF for a specific purpose.
I used Fireclean to lube it beforehand, we fired 660 rounds (11 drums, full-auto), letting the gun cool to a reasonable temp. every 180 rounds.
The gun was obviously nasty, but the lube stayed where it was and it ran flawlessly. It cleaned up easily.
Summary:
Lube stayed put
Lube lubed the gun under less than ideal conditions
Lube didn't burn off
I don't care if it's made from vegetable oil, or unicorn tears, or Bruce Jenner's leftover eyeliner. if it's safe and it works well, I'm happy with it.
I don't think what is driving people's curiosity is whether or not fireclean works or not. Anyone who's tried it knows it works very well. The big question is whether a bottle of crisco will have the same results for far less cost.
I don't think what is driving people's curiosity is whether or not fireclean works or not. Anyone who's tried it knows it works very well. The big question is whether a bottle of crisco will have the same results for far less cost.
I'd also like to see weapon shield put to the same tests.
Leonidas24
09-11-15, 21:19
That's good, mine aren't looking too good. There is a lab I could pay for it at, but i think it's around $100 for gc and $200 for ir spec
No worries. I'm getting my degree in forensic science and have access to most of the equipment needed to compare these two materials. I don't have too much at stake in this, Fireclean never really worked that well for me in the past.
While this is all being discussed can someone please define "conditions the metal" for me? I'd like to know what exactly is happening to the bolt when Fireclean is applied and if it does have an actual effect on the metal substrate.
I think the idea is that is soaks into the structure of the metal.
With porous surfaces, such as those as presented when applying to phosphate parts, there might be some credence to this, but depending on how you clean the part, the effect can be null. IE, using a degreaser to clean will remove all of the oil, including the soaked in stuff.
Leonidas24
09-12-15, 00:53
I think the idea is that is soaks into the structure of the metal.
With porous surfaces, such as those as presented when applying to phosphate parts, there might be some credence to this, but depending on how you clean the part, the effect can be null. IE, using a degreaser to clean will remove all of the oil, including the soaked in stuff.
So in essence it is simply being held in place by the phosphate and has no physical effect on the steel itself. To soak into the structure of the metal would require fireclean to have a molecular structure smaller than that of the crystalline structure of the substrate itself, and considering Fireclean in all likelihood is derived from a plant lipid, the possibility of penetrating the substrate structure is horse hockey.
I had to go do some final D60 validation yesterday.
MK18 Mod 0, KAC NT4. We set the gun up to run on the ragged edge with a very high ROF for a specific purpose.
I used Fireclean to lube it beforehand, we fired 660 rounds (11 drums, full-auto), letting the gun cool to a reasonable temp. every 180 rounds.
The gun was obviously nasty, but the lube stayed where it was and it ran flawlessly. It cleaned up easily.
Summary:
Lube stayed put
Lube lubed the gun under less than ideal conditions
Lube didn't burn off
I don't care if it's made from vegetable oil, or unicorn tears, or Bruce Jenner's leftover eyeliner. if it's safe and it works well, I'm happy with it.
Does anyone want to try this test with Crisco?
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/ir-spectra-fireclean-crisco/
It contains some gems such as:
"It was claimed by various people, including the guy who first posted that now-removed stovetop video, that he had scientific proof of this claim. I asked Mr. Fennell if he would provide a copy of the analysis, which he refused to do. He told me all I needed to do was look at FireClean’s patent application to see that it was Crisco and/or other vegetable oils. When I asked again, rather politely in my opinion, he sent a very long and agitated message again refusing to supply the test before blocking me on Facebook."
"Not generally using anything other than olive oil in my cooking, I was somewhat surprised to find a wall of various types of cooking oils at my local grocery story. There were two types of Crisco oils prominently featured in the display – Pure Vegetable, and Pure Canola. I stood there in the aisle for quite some time, trying to figure out which one to buy. Sensing my puzzlement, a helpful lady asked me if I needed assistance deciding which oil was right for whatever it was I wanted to cook. Suddenly, I understood what it must be like for girls who visit gun stores."
And, of course, "FireClean is probably a modern unsaturated vegetable oil virtually the same as many oils used for cooking."
Oh it also contains infrared spectroscopy of FireClean, Crisco Canola, and Crisco Vegetable Oil, performed by a University of Arizona PhD in organic chemistry.
Fireclean never really worked that well for me in the past.
Likewise, was underwhelmed by its performance. Will likely go back to TW25B.
But LAV uses it.... So it must be the best :rolleyes:
Maybe after the analysis comes back then will will turkey know what it is. Until then people are just guessing what it's made of.
I think the idea is that is soaks into the structure of the metal.
With porous surfaces, such as those as presented when applying to phosphate parts, there might be some credence to this, but depending on how you clean the part, the effect can be null. IE, using a degreaser to clean will remove all of the oil, including the soaked in stuff.
What wonder lube through the ages has not claimed to "bond" or "soak into" or "penetrate" the metal? I have no idea if the lube in question or does not, but it's a claim taken from an old marketing handbook, that I do know.
Lube seems to be an area of the gun industry that attracts the most snake oil salesmen.
Outlander Systems
09-12-15, 15:51
Disclosure:
I've been fiddle ****ing around with starting a lube business, since apparently, you can repackage Crisco, and mark it up 1000%...
In all seriousness, I have demo samples available of a lube a buddy and I have been using. If you are willing to pay for shipping, I will send you a free bottle of it for T&E.
Shoot me a PM if you're interested...
34967
34968
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=34967&d=1442091070
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=34968&d=1442091317
My junk is a combination of Unicorn Tears, Chupacabras Semen, and Viper Sweat. Guaranteed to be slipperier than a minnow's pecker, or your money back.
Fully synthetic, high-flash point, excellent anti-galling properties, and a high viscosity.
On another plus side, it is not made for using in a wok, and offers excellent corrosion resistance. It will NOT interact with either steel, aluminum, or nickel. And it will not get flung off during operation.
I'm not sure if we're going to follow through with this, but if you're interested in beating the shit out of it for us, let me know, and I'll send some your way.
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/ir-spectra-fireclean-crisco/
It contains some gems such as:
"It was claimed by various people, including the guy who first posted that now-removed stovetop video, that he had scientific proof of this claim. I asked Mr. Fennell if he would provide a copy of the analysis, which he refused to do. He told me all I needed to do was look at FireClean’s patent application to see that it was Crisco and/or other vegetable oils. When I asked again, rather politely in my opinion, he sent a very long and agitated message again refusing to supply the test before blocking me on Facebook."
"Not generally using anything other than olive oil in my cooking, I was somewhat surprised to find a wall of various types of cooking oils at my local grocery story. There were two types of Crisco oils prominently featured in the display – Pure Vegetable, and Pure Canola. I stood there in the aisle for quite some time, trying to figure out which one to buy. Sensing my puzzlement, a helpful lady asked me if I needed assistance deciding which oil was right for whatever it was I wanted to cook. Suddenly, I understood what it must be like for girls who visit gun stores."
I would further note that FIREClean does VERY well preventing corrosion in all of my tests which involve environmental exposure (outside in the snow, rain, etc.).
And, of course, "FireClean is probably a modern unsaturated vegetable oil virtually the same as many oils used for cooking."
Oh it also contains infrared spectroscopy of FireClean, Crisco Canola, and Crisco Vegetable Oil, performed by a University of Arizona PhD in organic chemistry.
That was my video. I remove it because I felt that it painted FIRECLean in a negative light, without cause, and was deceptive. Why? because given further testing, which IS on my channel, there is no way they are the same substance. I felt the video was akin to saying "The Viper is faster than the GT2 because when pushed down a hill, it arrived at the bottom first". Hence, I removed it.
Eurodriver
09-12-15, 16:28
What wonder lube through the ages has not claimed to "bond" or "soak into" or "penetrate" the metal? I have no idea if the lube in question or does not, but it's a claim taken from an old marketing handbook, that I do know.
Lube seems to be an area of the gun industry that attracts the most snake oil salesmen.
Why is why I hate these threads! Lube threads are always full of guerrilla marketers and some random Joes who spent $60 on lube and feel obligated to share their experiences with everyone.
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/vegetable-oils-IR-data.jpg
Source: http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/ir-spectra-fireclean-crisco/
So now the question is: when are cooks going to start using fireclean and charge the appropriate premium?
Monsieur SirDonalds.
BillyJack556
09-12-15, 17:04
Good find on the Vuurwapen Blog Koshinn. http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general...eclean-crisco/
Looks like we aren't the only place wondering about Fireclean. I'll bet the Sugg brothers are not happy campers right now with this kind of publicity especially since they charge $7.50 per ounce for Veg oil.
Looks like George was wrong about a couple things though. It's not exactly Crisco oil, probably Sams or Costco generic veg oil since the name brand would cost them more.
He thought it might have Pam as an additive, turns out it has no additives at all. Not even an anti-corrosion which explains why it's a poor protectant.
I know there will be some FC fanboys on here that will say Vuurwapen is biased etc and the Ph.D. in organic chemistry from the University of Arizona and his test results are made up or somehow not good enough.
Here is a link to their own patent which supports the findings.
https://www.google.com/patents/CA2867869A1?cl=en&dq=CA+2867869+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIyqvwt5XhxgIV0gWSCh2sXg_p
Here are some more gems for those who don't want to go to the blog and see the results:
"What did the tests show?
FireClean is probably a modern unsaturated vegetable oil virtually the same as many oils used for cooking.
The professor had something to say about the formulation and its relevance as a gun oil. “I don’t see any sign of other additives such as antioxidants or corrosion inhibitors. Since the unsaturation in these oils, especially linoleate residues, can lead to their oligomerization with exposure to oxygen and light, use on weapons could lead to formation of solid residues (gum) with time. The more UV and oxygen, the more the oil will degrade.”
In my 2013 article about gun oils, I mentioned that FireClean wasn’t advertised as protecting against corrosion. Given the results of this test, I suppose that makes sense.
When I fired this AR which had been sitting for years with FireClean on the internals, it hadn’t been exposed to UV, although it certainly saw some oxygen. Since that test, several friends told me privately that their 1911s did not function properly after sitting for six months with FireClean on the internals. It would seem that these results are highly dependent on the weapon.
Given that people in the military are often exposed to both UV and oxygen (such as when they go outdoors) and also need corrosion protection for their firearms, I would not recommend FireClean be used by members of the military.
I offered FireClean a chance to respond to the findings of this test, and, among other things, they asked to review the draft of this article for a few days before it was published. That is not how this blog works. I assume they will be publishing a response through other channels."
morbidbattlecry
09-12-15, 17:11
Really terrible sample size. He should have had several more gun lubes that are vegetable based and see if the results are the same.
Why is why I hate these threads! Lube threads are always full of guerrilla marketers and some random Joes who spent $60 on lube and feel obligated to share their experiences with everyone.
Hopefully my light duty flame suit will work here on this comment. I have no doubt some lubes are better than others, but I honestly think any decent lube made of - more less - the same sh%$ everyone uses, is more than adequate and I stopped following the lube wars a long time ago. There's an old school smith and general BTDT guy I know who's has a great rep for making reliable guns and half his work is usually fixing the work of other smiths. Years ago I was in his shop and asked him what lube he used on his guns that has high round counts. He got a "here we go again" look on his face and help up a can of 3 in 1 oil which he'd used for decades. That's proof of nothing, and I didn't switch to 3 in 1 due to that, but it was my "ah ha" moment where I concluded any brand of decent lube was probably fine for most applications and my research after that didn't convince me one brand of lube vastly better than another. I'd bet $$ most people never put their guns through the conditions and rnd counts they could really eek out the physical differences between one lube over another. For that small % who do, I can see looking to find that best possible lube makes sense. Seems to me many have great success with Mobile 1 for example. It's like those people who put 100rnds per year through their total gun collection but update something (grips, sites, optics, etc) every month 'cause it's the latest thing you just have to have to be ninja status. Keep it lubed with any brand of decent lube, and shoot the shite out of it.
I tend to use gun grease on handguns rails in the summer, but that's about the only lube changes I make. I'm not HSLD and your mileage may vary and those are my conclusions only.
Years ago, like 30+ years ago, there was a short term "fad" that treated parts similar to a cast iron skillet. They would soak and heat somewhat in frying oil, wipe down with a slightly oiled rag to insure some oil remained, bake it in a oven, then repeat a few times over a period of days to get a coating. They "seasoned" the parts, they didn't do springs, they didn't do aluminum in high heat. They claimed it worked well.
Would it be odd if they were onto something and ahead of their time? It wasn't a long term fad at the time, it took as much time or more to apply the process than it was to conventionally clean it.
It would be retro to say if what is old is possibly new again? Maybe baking and deep frying the part somewhat isn't needed for the results?
Leonidas24
09-12-15, 18:59
Well this is awkward. I think I'll add PWS Gun-Ease to my testing to see what differences there are between Fireclean, veggie oil, and a paste-lubricant.
morbidbattlecry
09-12-15, 19:23
Well this is awkward. I think I'll add PWS Gun-Ease to my testing to see what differences there are between Fireclean, veggie oil, and a paste-lubricant.
Did you happen to get a look at the patent? Fireclean is like a mix of 3 different vegetable oils. https://www.google.com/patents/CA2867869A1?cl=en&dq=CA+2867869+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIyqvwt5XhxgIV0gWSCh2sXg_p There is the patent link. Fireclean is definitely not Crisco oil. Its a blend.
Years ago, like 30+ years ago, there was a short term "fad" that treated parts similar to a cast iron skillet. They would soak and heat somewhat in frying oil, wipe down with a slightly oiled rag to insure some oil remained, bake it in a oven, then repeat a few times over a period of days to get a coating. They "seasoned" the parts, they didn't do springs, they didn't do aluminum in high heat. They claimed it worked well.
Would it be odd if they were onto something and ahead of their time? It wasn't a long term fad at the time, it took as much time or more to apply the process than it was to conventionally clean it.
It would be retro to say if what is old is possibly new again? Maybe baking and deep frying the part somewhat isn't needed for the results?
Funny you should mention that, this thread had me pondering trying that on something. I would probably use bacon grease though as its what I use on my cast iron cook ware. Seems to take heat better than vegetable oil in my experience. Teflon ain't got shit on my Griswolds that's for sure.
Maybe I'll give it a try on my ruger mklll pistol first, I shoot it suppressed a lot and it gets pretty crusty. I like the idea, didnt know it was tried before.
BillyJack556
09-12-15, 19:42
Did you happen to get a look at the patent? Fireclean is like a mix of 3 different vegetable oils.https://www.google.com/patents/CA2867869A1?cl=en&dq=CA+2867869+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIyqvwt5XhxgIV0gWSCh2sXg_p There is the patent link. Fireclean is definitely not Crisco oil. Its a blend.
And that makes it worth $7.50/oz how?
So Fireclean is a vegetable oil mix, who cares? it works.
I posted here once before about a lube test some guys on my team did while in Afghanistan, we cleaned and then lubed each rifle identically, each one using a different lube, issued CLP, SLiP 2000, Frog Lube, and Fireclean, we intended to shoot until failure with no reapplication of lube. The test started one night and ran into the next day. The CLP gun stopped after I think 9 mags, the Frog Lube gun owner didn't return the second day but had 12 mags through it with no problem. The other two rifles never completely stopped working, mine was the one with SLiP 2000, I had a blown primer and stuck case around mag 30 when I switched to MK 262 ammo, but once I removed the case and switched back to M855-A1, the gun continued to run fine, was getting sluggish though. All total I think both rifles had roughly 34 mags through each before we got tired and had to clear the range, both were still shooting, the Fireclean gun owner said he didn't notice any sluggishness in his gun.
I have some personal firearms that I've lubed with Fireclean, some that I haven't been able to shoot in about a year, just pulled them out of the safe and didn't notice the lube gumming up or rancid smells, looks, smells, and functions the same as the day I last put lube on them.
Leonidas24
09-12-15, 20:06
So Fireclean is a vegetable oil mix, who cares? it works.
I posted here once before about a lube test some guys on my team did while in Afghanistan, we cleaned and then lubed each rifle identically, each one using a different lube, issued CLP, SLiP 2000, Frog Lube, and Fireclean, we intended to shoot until failure with no reapplication of lube. The test started one night and ran into the next day. The CLP gun stopped after I think 9 mags, the Frog Lube gun owner didn't return the second day but had 12 mags through it with no problem. The other two rifles never completely stopped working, mine was the one with SLiP 2000, I had a blown primer and stuck case around mag 30 when I switched to MK 262 ammo, but once I removed the case and switched back to M855-A1, the gun continued to run fine, was getting sluggish though. All total I think both rifles had roughly 34 mags through each before we got tired and had to clear the range, both were still shooting, the Fireclean gun owner said he didn't notice any sluggishness in his gun.
I have some personal firearms that I've lubed with Fireclean, some that I haven't been able to shoot in about a year, just pulled them out of the safe and didn't notice the lube gumming up or rancid smells, looks, smells, and functions the same as the day I last put lube on them.
I think the point is that if Fireclean didn't exist and someone came along saying they use a homebrew of almond, flax seed, and sunflower oil, they'd be looked at like the village idiot.
BoringGuy45
09-12-15, 20:37
My only concern with lubes, and why I pay attention to these threads is to make sure that they aren't going to:
1) Damage my gun
2) Leave my guns vulnerable to being damaged or weathered when another choice would have protected them.
If FC doesn't do that, I'm fine with it.
morbidbattlecry
09-12-15, 21:53
And that makes it worth $7.50/oz how?
You got me man. Expensive plastic bottle?
BillyJack556
09-12-15, 22:11
You got me man. Expensive plastic bottle?
Well you would hope that would be the case but I've got to chuckle. One reviewer said he liked the oil but the bottles leak so bad he has to keep them in a ziplock so his range bag and stuff doesn't get lubed.
Really terrible sample size. He should have had several more gun lubes that are vegetable based and see if the results are the same.
What? This is not statistics. Is it veg oil? Functional groups look like it. GC will tell you what kind.
He tested fireclean, results of other gun lubes have nothing to do with these results. More same samples would be a waste of time.
No, it means you don't have to buy it and are free to purchase and use whatever excites you.
And that makes it worth $7.50/oz how?
I have used this article as a lubrication reference since it was published. I learned quite a lot from reading this short article on lubrication. It isn't real technical and is pretty easily understood, even by a dullard like myself.
I've used the grease and oils he recommends for years without wear, rust or an issue of any kind. It isn't expensive and works quite well. This may be old knowledge for some of you. YMMV
Given what is known about Fire Clean, I highly doubt I will ever use the product. I want corrosion resistance, oxidation resistance and migration, which are properties of the additives, the additives absent from Fire Clean.
Lubrication-101 (http://www.grantcunningham.com/2006/05/lubrication-101/)
Let’s be clear: there are no “new”, “revolutionary” lubricant products made for firearms. That’s a flat statement, and it’s intended to be. All of the lubricants, bases, and additives of suitable use are already well known to the lubricant industry. Specific combinations might be unique, but it’s all been tried before – if not necessarily on guns.
There are several such products on the market right now that are simply a well-known boundary additive in a light carrier; at least one of them is a chlorinated ester! These things have been around a long time, and unless you didn’t know better the products using them would indeed seem to be “revolutionary.” Just remember: any new gun lube is going to be made up of readily available components, perhaps blended especially for the requirement, but will not be a “miracle”.
Motor oils: Generally good boundary lubrication (particularly the Havoline formulations), but very poor corrosion resistance and poor resistance to open-air oxidation. The biggest problem is that their pour-point additives often contain benzene compounds, which aren’t a good thing to have next to your skin on a regular basis! I recommend staying away from motor oils; if you must use something from the auto parts store, ATF performs better for firearms use on every count, even if it is a tad more expensive. (ATF is still 1/10 to 1/100th the cost of a specialty “gun oil.”)
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/ir-spectra-fireclean-crisco/
It contains some gems such as:
And, of course, "FireClean is probably a modern unsaturated vegetable oil virtually the same as many oils used for cooking."
How can you write an article and make claims like that? It is kind of like when the hit piece on the Battle Comp was done complaining that it didn't work, then writing that it worked too well and that it pushed the muzzle down.
I don't care if my weapon lube is made of dolphin and kittens combined together in a blender. If it works, it works.
ETA- I had a talk with a person awhile back who asked me why we didn't review any products and bash them. The comment was made that showing a product in a poor light, was much more exciting than showing it in a good light, and that it would increase the legitimacy of the other reviews we made. I replied that once we found that a product was crap, we sent it back, and ceased our involvement. We didn't have time to review products which weren't up to par, and weren't interested in spending time with items which didn't meet our needs.
I understand there are people who want to gain sponsors and attention by periodically trashing products which are in vogue. Those people end up standing out, and are easy to identify as their data doesn't support the end goal of the product, and things are written to sound good, but are able to be denied if they are called out.
There is a large difference between "being close", and being the same thing. Taking the difference between cocaine and sugar, the difference is only one molecule.....
Eurodriver
09-13-15, 06:29
Hopefully my light duty flame suit will work here on this comment. I have no doubt some lubes are better than others, but I honestly think any decent lube made of - more less - the same sh%$ everyone uses, is more than adequate and I stopped following the lube wars a long time ago. There's an old school smith and general BTDT guy I know who's has a great rep for making reliable guns and half his work is usually fixing the work of other smiths. Years ago I was in his shop and asked him what lube he used on his guns that has high round counts. He got a "here we go again" look on his face and help up a can of 3 in 1 oil which he'd used for decades. That's proof of nothing, and I didn't switch to 3 in 1 due to that, but it was my "ah ha" moment where I concluded any brand of decent lube was probably fine for most applications and my research after that didn't convince me one brand of lube vastly better than another. I'd bet $$ most people never put their guns through the conditions and rnd counts they could really eek out the physical differences between one lube over another. For that small % who do, I can see looking to find that best possible lube makes sense. Seems to me many have great success with Mobile 1 for example. It's like those people who put 100rnds per year through their total gun collection but update something (grips, sites, optics, etc) every month 'cause it's the latest thing you just have to have to be ninja status. Keep it lubed with any brand of decent lube, and shoot the shite out of it.
I tend to use gun grease on handguns rails in the summer, but that's about the only lube changes I make. I'm not HSLD and your mileage may vary and those are my conclusions only.
This is what I was trying to say, only better.
My only concern with lubes, and why I pay attention to these threads is to make sure that they aren't going to:
1) Damage my gun
2) Leave my guns vulnerable to being damaged or weathered when another choice would have protected them.
If FC doesn't do that, I'm fine with it.
I agree with this with a third caveat.
3) Is not harmful for me to handle with bare skin.
How can you write an article and make claims like that? It is kind of like when the hit piece on the Battle Comp was done complaining that it didn't work, then writing that it worked too well and that it pushed the muzzle down.
I don't care if my weapon lube is made of dolphin and kittens combined together in a blender. If it works, it works.
ETA- I had a talk with a person awhile back who asked me why we didn't review any products and bash them. The comment was made that showing a product in a poor light, was much more exciting than showing it in a good light, and that it would increase the legitimacy of the other reviews we made. I replied that once we found that a product was crap, we sent it back, and ceased our involvement. We didn't have time to review products which weren't up to par, and weren't interested in spending time with items which didn't meet our needs.
I understand there are people who want to gain sponsors and attention by periodically trashing products which are in vogue. Those people end up standing out, and are easy to identify as their data doesn't support the end goal of the product, and things are written to sound good, but are able to be denied if they are called out.
There is a large difference between "being close", and being the same thing. Taking the difference between cocaine and sugar, the difference is only one molecule.....
Exactly.
Let's say I invent a new kind of barrel material. I give out a few barrels to 3 gunners, and they run them hard. They last a long time while remaining accurate. They become popular. Then people begin asking...what is this material? And I choose not to explain all my IP. So they then begin "testing it". They determine that the Rockwell hardness is around 20. They discover that the specific gravity is only 0.01 away from tin. They then concoct tests specifically designed to destroy tin, some of which destroy the barrel and some of which dont, but which have no bearing on actual use, hard or not. Finally, they decry me as a sheister selling tin barrels.
Nevermind that it's the most durable barrel made.
Nevermind that it's lighter.
Nevermind that it holds sub moa past 40k hard rounds.
Nevermind that Noone else has managed to make a comparable barrel.
That's similar to what I see happening here.
Ps...if you want to run Crisco in your rifle, please let me know how 87 octane performs in motors meant to run on 91 or greater. Seems octane doesn't matter anymore. Spectrometer says so.
http://www.analyticalspectroscopy.net/ap4_html_m7d7c0c45.png
How can you write an article and make claims like that?
Claims like what? That it is vegetable oil? It says so in the poorly written, plain English, patent application I posted in post #12 in this thread.
Is it really too much work to read the patent application that has been posted at least twice in this thread? :confused:
The analysis shows no additives, I recall seeing no additives mentioned in the patent application either, so that fits as well.
A better question is why do people continue to fall for this kind of stuff? Outlander, do you want a partner in your fledgling weapons oil business? :)
Claims like what? That it is vegetable oil? It says so in the poorly written, plain English, patent application I posted in post #12 in this thread.
Is it really too much work to read the patent application that has been posted at least twice in this thread? :confused:
The analysis shows no additives, I recall seeing no additives mentioned in the patent application either, so that fits as well.
A better question is why do people continue to fall for this kind of stuff? Outlander, do you want a partner in your fledgling weapons oil business? :)
Is this for real? Talking out of both sides of the mouth, much?
Pretty sure that was sarcasm.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 08:29
; )
Still T/E'ing.
This whole thing started for me when I couldn't get a lube to stick to a polished NiB carrier.
If you want some for free, PM me.
Claims like what? That it is vegetable oil? It says so in the poorly written, plain English, patent application I posted in post #12 in this thread.
Is it really too much work to read the patent application that has been posted at least twice in this thread? :confused:
The analysis shows no additives, I recall seeing no additives mentioned in the patent application either, so that fits as well.
A better question is why do people continue to fall for this kind of stuff? Outlander, do you want a partner in your fledgling weapons oil business? :)
Andrew Tuohy
09-13-15, 09:45
I understand there are people who want to gain sponsors and attention...
I do not have any sponsors. My blog has no advertisements and is not a source of revenue for me (although there are generic ads on YouTube, which is not where these "hit pieces" you speak of end up).
You make money from the very companies you defend here. Seems like you've just made the case against yourself.
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 11:17
So, seeing that FireClean DOES work better than most lubes on the market today, which I own and which I've used, who should be more humiliated and discredited?
FireClean, for being vegetable oil based? Or the other inferior lubricants which have been soundly outperformed in suppressed and full auto weapons BY VEGETABLE OIL?
Considering this, who are the real shills?
So, seeing that FireClean DOES work better than most lubes on the market today, which I own and which I've used, who should be more humiliated and discredited?
FireClean, for being vegetable oil based? Or the other inferior lubricants which have been soundly outperformed in suppressed and full auto weapons BY VEGETABLE OIL?
Considering this, who are the real shills?
I have no dog in this fight and am not a industrial chemist, but based on vs simply repackaged are leagues different from each other. I have no experience with the product but my interested is peaked by this crazy thread!
That fact does remain that some genuine BTDT types speak highly of it and have a lot more experience with lubes and their effects than I do by miles, so that can't be discounted.
It actually just leads to more Qs than answers really.
Eurodriver
09-13-15, 11:26
So, seeing that FireClean DOES work better than most lubes on the market today, which I own and which I've used, who should be more humiliated and discredited?
FireClean, for being vegetable oil based? Or the other inferior lubricants which have been soundly outperformed in suppressed and full auto weapons BY VEGETABLE OIL?
Considering this, who are the real shills?
How does it work better than most lubes? I'm not trying to antagonize you here, but I am wondering.
Can you quantify that?
Ps...if you want to run Crisco in your rifle, please let me know how 87 octane performs in motors meant to run on 91 or greater. Seems octane doesn't matter anymore. Spectrometer says so.
This brings up a point I thank many miss. The ir shows functional groups, fireclean looks like a triglyceride. It shows nothing of the carbon chain. GC is needed, at least that's how I understand it based on brief use of both in college. Soybean oil has a range of certain fatty acid groups. Perhaps fireclean found a certain ratio of certain triglycerides performs better.
In the chart above, it shoes the functional groups are the same which is to be expected. However, there are different ratios of different molecules in the chains.
Also, fwiw, cocain and sugar are quite different, but the point is correct, slight differences can create vastly different chemical behaviors.
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 11:39
How does it work better than most lubes? I'm not trying to antagonize you here, but I am wondering.
Can you quantify that?
In one of my previous posts, I stated a non comprehensive list of lubricants rich I have bought, used, tortured, and discarded. No need to repost it again in the same thread.
FireClean has, in my experience, reduced friction and prevented corrosion over a term of actual patrol rifle use, longer and better than any other lube I've used aside from Lucas extreme gun oil.
That's more an indictment of the other lubes, being beaten by vegetable oil. I haven't been lucky enough to receive any free shit and I work hard in the central Florida heat, rain, and humidity. I use what works.
I'll be running the weaponshield that I forgot I had through the ringer as well on a second rifle and glock. They'll be sweated on, run hard, put away wet (literally), and maybe bled on. We shall see.
I suspect that WS is going be steeped in EP additives, but will get gritty with the addition of moderate amounts of fouling...as several of my buddies have told me. But I'm going to find out for myself.
George's marketing of the Falex test is highly deceptive, as I previously noted. But, if his product works as he states, I'll note it here. Still won't care for the sheister bullshit marketing tactics.
So any reason why the foodlube stuff posted earlier wouldn't be worth an evaluative effort?
Failure2Stop
09-13-15, 11:45
Why am I not surprised that plant oils are being used in non-toxic lubes? Neat that they figured out a blend that beats the rest.
Next.
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 11:58
So any reason why the foodlube stuff posted earlier wouldn't be worth an evaluative effort?
I don't see why not. I'd just pay attention to the upper temp limit. Worth a shot, IMHO.
I do not have any sponsors. My blog has no advertisements and is not a source of revenue for me (although there are generic ads on YouTube, which is not where these "hit pieces" you speak of end up).
You make money from the very companies you defend here. Seems like you've just made the case against yourself.
What was the lube you used in your torture test? I thought it was FireClean....
No, it means you don't have to buy it and are free to purchase and use whatever excites you.
I think a lot of you guys are missing the point. People are not upset that the product is not working, they are upset that a company has been bottling Crisco and up-charging it 10,000%. It is not an honest way to operate a business. If I re-branded my tap water, told you it was the end all best super hydrating enhancement fluid out there, charged you 49.99 a liter, had a bunch of celebrities endorse me, do you think there would be some legal and business repercussions for my actions down the line?
Failure2Stop
09-13-15, 12:14
I think a lot of you guys are missing the point. People are not upset that the product is not working, they are upset that a company has been bottling Crisco and up-charging it 10,000%. It is not an honest way to operate a business. If I re-branded my tap water, told you it was the end all best super hydrating enhancement fluid out there, charged you 49.99 a liter, had a bunch of celebrities endorse me, do you think there would be some legal and business repercussions for my actions down the line?
So, you've done a performance comparison between FC and Crisco?
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
Eurodriver
09-13-15, 12:15
If I re-branded my tap water, told you it was the end all best super hydrating enhancement fluid out there, charged you 49.99 a liter, had a bunch of celebrities endorse me, do you think there would be some legal and business repercussions for my actions down the line?
No. Caveat Emptor. That'd be my fault for being a sucker.
Given the preponderance of snake oil salesmen proliferating the AR lube market (see this thread for proof), anyone "upset" by what they find in their choice of hyped up overpriced lubricant has no one to blame but themselves.
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 12:16
I'm going to add that this thread echoes many similar threads on the lubricant forum Bob is the oil guy when it was discovered that, under U.S. law, highly refined mineral base oils were allowed to be marketed as "full synthetic" alongside ester and PAO base oil formulas.
Shocker of shockers, the lubricant that currently has the best detergency, NOACK volatility, HTHS, wear numbers (according to used oil analysis), TBN retention, etc is NOT a classical full synthetic base oil. In 5w-30, It's currently Pennzoil Ultra Platinum, which uses a base oil refined from natural gas, not an ester or PAO.
Everybody lost their minds over the price (it's more expensive than Mobil 1) until the oil's actual performance became the subject of conversation.
Go figure.
Then, it came out that Mobil has greatly reduced PAO content across their line, except for the Euro rated oil (0w-40). Cue the gasps.
Eurodriver
09-13-15, 12:18
In one of my previous posts, I stated a non comprehensive list of lubricants rich I have bought, used, tortured, and discarded. No need to repost it again in the same thread.
FireClean has, in my experience, reduced friction and prevented corrosion over a term of actual patrol rifle use, longer and better than any other lube I've used aside from Lucas extreme gun oil.
That's more an indictment of the other lubes, being beaten by vegetable oil. I haven't been lucky enough to receive any free shit and I work hard in the central Florida heat, rain, and humidity. I use what works.
I'll be running the weaponshield that I forgot I had through the ringer as well on a second rifle and glock. They'll be sweated on, run hard, put away wet (literally), and maybe bled on. We shall see.
I suspect that WS is going be steeped in EP additives, but will get gritty with the addition of moderate amounts of fouling...as several of my buddies have told me. But I'm going to find out for myself.
George's marketing of the Falex test is highly deceptive, as I previously noted. But, if his product works as he states, I'll note it here. Still won't care for the sheister bullshit marketing tactics.
Thanks for the reply. I am in your AO and have found CLP work excellently WRT corrosion/rust prevention. It may not be the latest and greatest, especially as a lubricant, but it certainly keeps things looking nice.
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 12:22
Thanks for the reply. I am in your AO and have found CLP work excellently WRT corrosion/rust prevention. It may not be the latest and greatest, especially as a lubricant, but it certainly keeps things looking nice.
As long as it is used liberally, and reapplied very regularly, I've found the same. But for me, I had to reapply after every single shift or I got rust.
So, you've done a performance comparison between FC and Crisco?
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
Kind of a simple response to my post, and of course the answer is no... for now. I am not really against swapping to Crisco in my BCM Middy to support my thesis though. But I can tell you this, I am on the last bottle of Fireclean I will ever own. I find it gets a little tacky when I have applied in to firearms I had stored for a while, unlike EWL or FP-10.
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 12:29
Kind of a simple response to my post, and of course the answer is no... for now. I am not really against swapping to Crisco in my BCM Middy to support my thesis though. But I can tell you this, I am on the last bottle of Fireclean I will ever own. I find it gets a little tacky when I have applied in to firearms I had stored for a while, unlike EWL or FP-10.
And, I already know, you didn't follow the instructions prior to your first application.
Buy whatever you want.
Failure2Stop
09-13-15, 12:38
Kind of a simple response to my post, and of course the answer is no... for now. I am not really against swapping to Crisco in my BCM Middy to support my thesis though. But I can tell you this, I am on the last bottle of Fireclean I will ever own. I find it gets a little tacky when I have applied in to firearms I had stored for a while, unlike EWL or FP-10.
Criticising it for getting tacky is a valid point.
Criticising performance because a graph that maybe 0.1% of public understands is not.
Criticising mark-up, with the insinuation that it is nothing other than Crisco, is an excessive over-simplification, unless that's truly what you believe.
We are free to buy, or not buy, whatever we choose. What does meet with annoyance is when "facts" are created without validation.
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
But but but, super squirrel lube must be reinvented and sold to the drones yearly, aka FIRECLEAN, FROGLUBE, and whatever is coming down the pipe!!!!
The industry is a BUSINESS and if a jug of lube lasted you 10 years, they'd go broke waiting for you to buy again, so a problem and solution need to be reinvented, to keep the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ flowing in...
I think this is hilarious for those who need to use the <insert famous guy> promoted lube and even more so for anyone selling the stuff who knew it was simply Crisco.
Too funny. :lol:
Buy some lube, use some lube, lube before shooting at the range - then stop thinking about lube - well FIREARM lube, that is. ;)
JMO, worth exactly what you paid for it.
Why does it have a shelf life? Because its food. haha
I have now used several plant based lubes and find them to get gummy. You quickly point out that FireClean must be applied in a specific matter....I dont want a lube that has directions. Just me. I want something to squirt and go.
I use ATF mostly but have started on a bottle of Lucas that seems to be working well, but makes an eye burning smoke with supressed fire.
And, I already know, you didn't follow the instructions prior to your first application.
Buy whatever you want.
I'm not sure the two guys responsible for FireClean were interested in "snake oil" that parted fools and their money. They don't give off that vibe to me.
It seems the lubricant they sell does what is advertised, and better than many others. I don't know why, don't care why. If it's some blend of plant oils, awesome! It is not the only lubricant I use either.
I've got all sorts. The only one I will no longer use is SLIP. In low temps, it got tacky/gummy and slowed the cyclic rate on all my weapons.
I have Weaponshield, RemOil, Breakfree CLP, Mobil1, and FireClean.
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 13:14
I have now used several plant based lubes and find them to get gummy. You quickly point out that FireClean must be applied in a specific matter....I dont want a lube that has directions. Just me. I want something to squirt and go.
I use ATF mostly but have started on a bottle of Lucas that seems to be working well, but makes an eye burning smoke with supressed fire.
As predicted.
I have now used several plant based lubes and find them to get gummy. You quickly point out that FireClean must be applied in a specific matter....I dont want a lube that has directions. Just me. I want something to squirt and go.
I use ATF mostly but have started on a bottle of Lucas that seems to be working well, but makes an eye burning smoke with supressed fire.
It's not just you. At one point I was servicing 24 carbines & rifles for my business and I like to keep things simple. If the directions require you to do any more with a lubricant than spray or drip it on, I don't care for it either.
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 13:31
It's not just you. At one point I was servicing 24 carbines & rifles for my business and I like to keep things simple. If the directions require you to do any more with a lubricant than spray or drip it on, I don't care for it either.
I wonder how many people are going to admit to NOT following the one-time cleaning instructions prior to the first application of FireClean?
Other things one shouldn't use without judicious cleaning when switching products: grease.
EDIT: I mean, love FC or hate it. I don't care. But WHO BUYS A PRODUCT AND THEN PROMPTLY IGNORES THE INSTALLATION/APPLICATION INSTRUCTIONS?????
The context here would be CLEAR if somebody had purchased a BCM KMR, botched the install because they discarded the instructions, and then blamed BCM. OH, and then complained how expensive it was.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 13:37
The whole thing is pretty stupid.
The last "branded" lube I bought was RemOil.
Everything since has been some home brew concoction ranging from motor oil, to various greases, etc.
For me, the "badass" wonder lubes' only appeal has been in the applicator the product comes in. I'd pay $5 for a syringe of Crisco, in lieu of what I've had to do in the past. It's a ****ing mess.
The whole thing is really, really stupid.
Anyone getting their panties ruffled over this is suffering from a need to re-check their egos/priorities in life.
But but but, super squirrel lube must be reinvented and sold to the drones yearly, aka FIRECLEAN, FROGLUBE, and whatever is coming down the pipe!!!!
The industry is a BUSINESS and if a jug of lube lasted you 10 years, they'd go broke waiting for you to buy again, so a problem and solution need to be reinvented, to keep the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ flowing in...
I think this is hilarious for those who need to use the <insert famous guy> promoted lube and even more so for anyone selling the stuff who knew it was simply Crisco.
Too funny. :lol:
Buy some lube, use some lube, lube before shooting at the range - then stop thinking about lube - well FIREARM lube, that is. ;)
JMO, worth exactly what you paid for it.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 13:48
Lube is simple:
You have two surfaces, where, under a microscope they look like two wood saws rubbing betwixt themselves.
The addition of a lubricant fills in the sawtooth valleys, and turns the jagged edges into straight, "smooth" edges.
After this its all wine-tasting. What's the flash-point? Does it have corrosion resistance? Is the viscosity so high it gums up in my application? Is the viscosity so low it gets thrown everywhere and fails to stick to the material I am trying to lubricate? Does it gum-up with contaminants? Is it chemically reactive with what I'm applying it to? Will it turn into varnish at high temperatures?
If these boring-assed questions really interest you, head over to Bob is The Oil guy, and knock yourselves out. You can read up on surfectants and emulsifiers until you puke. I've been there, and it is about as fun as reading about crocheting.
Anyone trying to sell you "firearms specific" oil, is trying to make some money. Period. Full ****ing stop. Firearms aren't very demanding, as evidenced by the efficacy of ****ing Crisco.
$14 for a 1/4 oz of "Gun Butter?" Seriously? Get ****ed. I can make gun butter in my garage for about $1/oz.
The whole thing is a no-shit, fleecing. Thus, the last "gun oil" I ever bought was Remington Re-Packaged Sewing Machine oil.
A lot of us still use plain old Break Free CLP (or LP if you want a bit thicker lube).
I mean, love FC or hate it. I don't care. But WHO BUYS A PRODUCT AND THEN PROMPTLY IGNORES THE INSTALLATION/APPLICATION INSTRUCTIONS?????
Hands raised, both of them. I do this and will test for reactivity because of one reason, and one reason alone: my wife.
I have NO idea what she's going to do, find, use, or whatever. When she got pregnant I switched to non toxic lubricants. But even now who knows what she's going to mix together and just start spraying all over. So I'd test them to see if they'd turn to cement. If they react with other lubricants I give them away.
You'd probably be horrified by my cleaning methods, the things I've used and even worse mixed together because I just didn't want another bottle lying around. I'm not one of the hardcore types that brew my own in the kitchen sink, but I don't follow directions.
I mean, love FC or hate it. I don't care. But WHO BUYS A PRODUCT AND THEN PROMPTLY IGNORES THE INSTALLATION/APPLICATION INSTRUCTIONS?????
People do the same shit with Frog Lube.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 14:00
A lot of us still use plain old Break Free CLP (or LP if you want a bit thicker lube).
Gasp! The horror!
Because it doesn't come in a Kryptek Camouflaged Bottle, doesn't come guaranteed to give you TOTAL DYNAMIC BATTLESPACE DOMINANCE, and because it's not endorsed by the Industry Rock-Star-of-The-Week, it "sucks."
Berserkr556
09-13-15, 14:02
I knew from the first day Fireclean hit the market I didn't want anything to do with it and the same with froglube. Time is precious and I don't have time to be following any directions which are more complex than clean parts and apply lube. I find it funny how everyone was hawking Fireclean like it was gold when all it is is a cooking oil blend. Then watched as guys were ridiculed because they didn't apply it correctly. Don't worry guys and gals next year a new super lube will be out and everyone will be preaching that it's the best.
BillyJack556
09-13-15, 14:03
Criticising it for getting tacky is a valid point.
Criticising performance because a graph that maybe 0.1% of public understands is not.
Criticising mark-up, with the insinuation that it is nothing other than Crisco, is an excessive over-simplification, unless that's truly what you believe.
We are free to buy, or not buy, whatever we choose. What does meet with annoyance is when "facts" are created without validation.
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
Facts. Ok let's look at the 2 we actually have so far.
1. Firecleans own patent shows it's 3 types of vegetable oil, with NO claimed additives. That's cut and dried unless we assume FC is lying to hide ingredients.
2. An infrared spectroscopy test done at the University of Arizona shows that it is some type of vegetable oil or oils with NO additives.
Turns out it is nothing but veg oil. The graph from the test is a fact, regardless of what percentage of the public understands it. Facts will always be open to debate but these are what we have and are far from "without validation".
So criticizing mark-up is not an unreasonable insinuation nor is it an excessive over-simplification at this time.
I'm sorry you are annoyed but a reasonable person, knowing the facts available now and the price of veg oil could easily come to the conclusion that FC is considerably over priced to say the least.
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 14:03
Hands raised, both of them. I do this and will test for reactivity because of one reason, and one reason alone: my wife.
I have NO idea what she's going to do, find, use, or whatever. When she got pregnant I switched to non toxic lubricants. But even now who knows what she's going to mix together and just start spraying all over. So I'd test them to see if they'd turn to cement. If they react with other lubricants I give them away.
You'd probably be horrified by my cleaning methods, the things I've used and even worse mixed together because I just didn't want another bottle lying around. I'm not one of the hardcore types that brew my own in the kitchen sink, but I don't follow directions.
I understand why and that's a valid point. For the reasons you state, FireClean is NOT the right lube for you.
BufordTJustice
09-13-15, 14:08
Facts. Ok let's look at the 2 we actually have so far.
1. Firecleans own patent shows it's 3 types of vegetable oil, with NO claimed additives. That's cut and dried unless we assume FC is lying to hide ingredients.
2. An infrared spectroscopy test done at the University of Arizona shows that it is some type of vegetable oil or oils with NO additives.
Turns out it is nothing but veg oil. The graph from the test is a fact, regardless of what percentage of the public understands it. Facts will always be open to debate but these are what we have and are far from "without validation".
So criticizing mark-up is not an unreasonable insinuation nor is it an excessive over-simplification at this time.
I'm sorry you are annoyed but a reasonable person, knowing the facts available now and the price of veg oil could easily come to the conclusion that FC is considerably over priced to say the least.
You are choosing to ignore that it performs in a superior manner to virtually all other lubes WRT to heat and fouling when properly applied.
You are still refusing to discuss the merits of its real world performance.
I'd like you to tell me how many rounds, through how many guns, you've run FireClean after properly applying it according to the instructions. Or are your blowhard posts made WITHOUT FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE?
Ante up.
EDIT: I'm well over 10k rounds between two AR15 rifles, a Tikka T3, three glocks, a Smith and Wesson Shield 9mm, and a Remington 870.
DOUBLE EDIT: This number doesn't count the 6+ active duty LEOs with whom I am friends, several of whom are on specialty teams, who have been using FC for over a year.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 14:15
I just looked up Fireclean.
Jesus Christ on a catwalk!
You folks are paying $30 for four ounces of this shit?
I think a lot of you guys are missing the point. People are not upset that the product is not working, they are upset that a company has been bottling Crisco and up-charging it 10,000%. It is not an honest way to operate a business. If I re-branded my tap water, told you it was the end all best super hydrating enhancement fluid out there, charged you 49.99 a liter, had a bunch of celebrities endorse me, do you think there would be some legal and business repercussions for my actions down the line?
If you read the article posted a page or so back, it referred you to a place called Lubri-Kit. This is the basis of their kits - all food machine safe so non-toxic:
https://www.lubriplate.com/Online-Store/Rifle-Greases/SFL-0.html (comes out to $1.50 an ounce) (temp range -60 to 325)
https://www.lubriplate.com/Online-Store/Rifle-Greases/FMO-350-AW-Spray.html (comes out to about $1.75 an ounce) temp range - pour point -10; flashpoint 480)
so those could be an alternative to pricier methods - get a vet syringe for the SFL-0.
ETA: Lubriplate sells both of those under their 'hunter lubrication' specification.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 14:30
If you read the article posted a page or so back, it referred you to a place called Lubri-Kit. This is the basis of their kits - all food machine safe so non-toxic:
https://www.lubriplate.com/Online-Store/Rifle-Greases/SFL-0.html (comes out to $1.50 an ounce) (temp range -60 to 325)
https://www.lubriplate.com/Online-Store/Rifle-Greases/FMO-350-AW-Spray.html (comes out to about $1.75 an ounce) temp range - pour point -10; flashpoint 480)
so those could be an alternative to pricier methods - get a vet syringe for the SFL-0.
ETA: Lubriplate sells both of those under their 'hunter lubrication' specification.
Exactly.
The bolt face on an AR-15 doesn't break 200-degrees on heavy firing strings. A vehicle's engine is around 600 degrees, and around 200 degrees with the inclusion of coolants. This should tell you that Mobil 1 will meet, and exceed, any oil shearing, metal galling, and temperature issues a bullet hose can throw at it, by a factor of exponents.
So when everyone is getting their blood-pressure up over CriscoClean, and how wonderful it is, they should really consider the fact that semi-automatic firearms are very undemanding of lubricants.
It doesn't matter if it's Pam, KY, Mobil 1, Viper Semen...put something on the goddamned metal, clean it when you have a chance, and reapply as needed.
This thread is 22 pages of folks finding out that their Shampoo is Sodium Laurel/Laureth Sulfate, and by golly, so is that cheap ass hand soap!
morbidbattlecry
09-13-15, 14:45
This brings up a point I thank many miss. The ir shows functional groups, fireclean looks like a triglyceride. It shows nothing of the carbon chain. GC is needed, at least that's how I understand it based on brief use of both in college. Soybean oil has a range of certain fatty acid groups. Perhaps fireclean found a certain ratio of certain triglycerides performs better.
In the chart above, it shoes the functional groups are the same which is to be expected. However, there are different ratios of different molecules in the chains.
Also, fwiw, cocain and sugar are quite different, but the point is correct, slight differences can create vastly different chemical behaviors.
If you had looked at the patent it says exactly that.
I just looked up Fireclean.
Jesus Christ on a catwalk!
You folks are paying $30 for four ounces of this shit?
How about a very silent partner? [emoji3][emoji3][emoji3]
If you had looked at the patent it says exactly that.
Or claims exactly that. It's amazing what you can get a patent on, and mumbo jumbo to mask what it is is par for the course with patents. This may or may not be the case with this product, but best not to put too much weight on the lingo used in patents.
I just want to know who has the balls here on this forum to go fry an egg or sautée some onions with their FIREclean.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 15:40
LOL.
Screw Gold and Silver as a hedge, I'm calling my plan manager to go all in on Fireclean.
How about a very silent partner? [emoji3][emoji3][emoji3]
I just want to know who has the balls here on this forum to go fry an egg or sautée some onions with their FIREclean.
No one will. They do not actually believe it's Crisco. That tact, however, does not play well on internet forums.
I've been using fire clean for over a year now...is it vegetable oil? I don't know, what I do know is fireclean keeps my guns lubed past the point where others usually burn off.
So is it vegetable oil? Who cares if it works.
I just looked up Fireclean.
Jesus Christ on a catwalk!
You folks are paying $30 for four ounces of this shit?Well, not all of us are... I just buy a gallon of Crisco for $8.99 on special...!
:dance3:
34993
Wonder what next years super gun lube is going to be...
hotrodder636
09-13-15, 15:56
I am baffled that this stupid topic made it to 23 pages.
BillyJack556
09-13-15, 15:59
I just want to know who has the balls here on this forum to go fry an egg or sautée some onions with their FIREclean.
Don't laugh, there are folks that would do it they just can't afford it! :)
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 16:00
Dr. Outlander's Amazing World Famous Gun Tonic and Firearm Cure-All Elixir. Good for colds, moles and sore assholes.
Well, not all of us are... I just buy a gallon of Crisco for $8.99 on special...!
:dance3: Wonder what next years super gun lube is going to be...
I just want to know who has the balls here on this forum to go fry an egg or sautée some onions with their FIREclean.
I wouldn't do that with Crisco either. Just sayin'
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 16:05
Fuuuuuuck no.
I'm an olive oil/coconut oil only kind of guy.
I wouldn't do that with Crisco either. Just sayin'
ETA: How long before we find out FrogJizz is avocado oil?
waveslayer
09-13-15, 16:10
Fuuuuuuck no.
I'm an olive oil/coconut oil only kind of guy.
ETA: How long before we find out FrogJizz is avocado oil?
it's mint and coconut with some baby oil in it. but it works well. plus some sunscreen to keep the dirt away.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 16:15
it's mint and coconut with some baby oil in it. but it works well. plus some sunscreen to keep the dirt away.
http://www.breachbangclear.com/fake-science-bullshit-and-your-favorite-gun-lube/
http://www.breachbangclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/billymays550.jpg
That's right. Unicorn Dick Lube.
UDL is an odorless and glittery firearms solvent, lubricant, and corrosion inhibitor designed for military operators for use in field operations. It is made from real unicorns. Utilizing advanced technology and the newest materials, Unicorn Dick Lube® shoots out a layer of glistening protection with every application. We at UDL are committed to extensive research, detailed development, and rapid deployment of advanced weapon glittering technologies that will enable all Special Sparkle Operations personnel to effectively and confidently carry out their missions with the knowledge they have the best protection. The secret of UDL is in the magic nano-glitter (MNG). Our proprietary MNG is stronger than military grade glitters—can your lube of choice make that claim? I didn’t think so.
http://www.breachbangclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/lube_in_use550.jpg
I am baffled that this stupid topic made it to 23 pages.
I'm not in the least, Chief. People love to debate, and everything around here has to have a "winner" to establish a clear pecking order of tactical awesomeness.
Dr. Outlander's Amazing World Famous Gun Tonic and Firearm Cure-All Elixir. Good for colds, moles and sore assholes.
If that's the label, put me down for six!
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 16:43
If that's the label, put me down for six!
Step right up, step right up.
I'm gonna sell it out of the back of a gypsy caravan, and wear a top-hat. Don't you worry.
I ignore the instructions. I wish I had more hands so I could raise them all.
I just started dumping FC on my nasty guns. I didn't clean and pre-treat or anything like that. I clean my SR-25, other than that a wipe down is all anything else gets.
I tried some Froglube once because I got a free tub of it. I applied it like I would the TW25 I've been using for like 13 years. It smelled delicious and didn't work at all. I'm assuming there was some process to apply it. Ain't nobody got time for that.
It may not ever matter to the end user what the product really is, if one considers its own results.
Does FC work when applied as directed? Yes, it does. It may not be the best if something better comes out. It does well though, if applied as directed.
Does FC work when applied NOT as directed? Not so well.
Can other lubricants work better with simpler or no instruction for application? Yes, there are many that can.
What is the cost of FC? If someone compares the cost per round, it can be less than $1 per 1k of ammo, if applied as directed.
If another lube, or a cooking oil of some sort can work as well for only 1% of the cost of FC, does that impact the cost per round in use? Maybe by a minor amount that I would never notice.
Did I have to make the investment in time and money to determine this, if the case was that it was Pam or Wesson, or? I do not mind spending an amount of money that I would never care about that compensated those that did invest time and money in their determination. I know that it can work well, and I'm not new to this by any stretch. Sure, something better will come out in time.
I would rather see those that innovate and look for solutions for issues. If the innovation to find it isn't compensated for, less people would look for it. Why would they? There would be no incentive. I would prefer incentives for solutions, not punishments.
I may like deals, but my choices are not based on the cost of a tenth or hundredth of a penny per round. That just splits hairs too far.
If it is a just a simple off the shelf oil, I commend them, and thank them for doing the work to find it out.
The cost argument is meaningless to me. It seems that the ones that do should shoot more, then tell me what costs the most. The lube is cheap, initial application may be more tedious, but the results are good.
I would tend to think that those who use a much higher quantity of different lube should be more concerned in it's price per round than users of FC.
Agreed. And I use a lot less than I have of others.
I've been using fire clean for over a year now...is it vegetable oil? I don't know, what I do know is fireclean keeps my guns lubed past the point where others usually burn off.
So is it vegetable oil? Who cares if it works.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 17:23
If I have to do an occult ritual to get the shit to work...I'm out.
Ain't nobody got time for that.
I ignore the instructions. I wish I had more hands so I could raise them all.
I just started dumping FC on my nasty guns. I didn't clean and pre-treat or anything like that. I clean my SR-25, other than that a wipe down is all anything else gets.
I tried some Froglube once because I got a free tub of it. I applied it like I would the TW25 I've been using for like 13 years. It smelled delicious and didn't work at all. I'm assuming there was some process to apply it. Ain't nobody got time for that.
This.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gLMSf4afzo
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 17:32
This.
I love that lady.
Here's a statement by LAV that he just put up on Facebook an hour ago.
**************
Here is an official statement from FIREClean about the recent allegations that it is nothing more than Crisco;
We would like to address recent false or misleading allegations that range from simply misguided to false, defamatory, and libelous. These attacks have been made by competitors and others that paint our product in a false or misleading light. The allegations do not focus on actual performance or relevant tests, and draw a misleading picture.
FIREClean™ Advanced Gun Oil is a specifically formulated, technically superior weapon reliability solution that resists the harshest firing with enormous heat and carbon overload that seize most weapons. It is a formulation- made specifically for exceptional reliability in firearms and weapons- not a re-labeled or re-packaged product.
FIREClean™ has been proven in combat in Afghanistan by US Special Operations Forces, and is in use by Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force Special Operations. It is also in use by elements of the FBI, DHS, DEA, CBP, Secret Service, Department of State, various intelligence agencies as well as numerous State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies.
FIREClean™ has been successfully tested on and is in use on weapons from handguns and shotguns to fully automatic and suppressed individual weapons. It has also been successfully tested on and is in use on crew served weapons from 5.56mm M249s to 40mm Automatic Grenade Launchers.
In addition to over 3 years of Combat and Service/Duty usage, FIREClean™ has been used on the competition circuit by the best shooters in the world, including the US Army Marksmanship Unit. It has been used to win multiple National Championships in Pistol, 3 Gun, Sniping, and many other competitive shooting disciplines.
We are proud to be of service to those that bear arms in defense of our freedom, those that serve to keep us safe in our communities, and those that carry firearms for self defense. We are also pleased to be of service to tens of thousands of competitors, hunters, and recreational shooters- all of whom appreciate the highest possible levels of reliability and safety.
We believe that our performance speaks for itself. We offer what we and many others regard as the best, highest performing product on the market. We have not commented on the formulation, nor will we do so now. We have focused on performance, and we will continue to do so.
Rest assured that we will defend our good name against false, defamatory and libelous allegations using the full measure of remedies available to us.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
You are choosing to ignore that it performs in a superior manner to virtually all other lubes WRT to heat and fouling when properly applied.
You are still refusing to discuss the merits of its real world performance.
I'd like you to tell me how many rounds, through how many guns, you've run FireClean after properly applying it according to the instructions. Or are your blowhard posts made WITHOUT FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE?
Ante up.
EDIT: I'm well over 10k rounds between two AR15 rifles, a Tikka T3, three glocks, a Smith and Wesson Shield 9mm, and a Remington 870.
DOUBLE EDIT: This number doesn't count the 6+ active duty LEOs with whom I am friends, several of whom are on specialty teams, who have been using FC for over a year.
Seems to me, given all that is now known, the onus is firmly upon Fire Clean to scientifically prove it does something, anything, Crisco wouldn't do just as well, at a fraction of the cost, however applied. Not the other way around.
LOL.
Screw Gold and Silver as a hedge, I'm calling my plan manager to go all in on Fireclean.
Hahahaha! Beat you to the punch dude!!! :) Now they're throwing around the word "LIBEL" so we may even have some court proceeds!!
I hope the FireClean people sue the crap out of the idiot who started this thread and their competitors who have piled on here.
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 18:13
Hahahaha! Beat you to the punch dude!!! :) Now they're throwing around the word "LIBEL" so we may even have some court proceeds!!
They say not to put all your eggs in one basket, so I will probably diversify with FrogSquirt and GunBlubber.
What did P.T. Barnum say again?
All the drama, blustering, huffing, puffing, and foaming of the mouth is all the proof I could ever ask for that the entire lube industry is a sideshow of hucksters, con-jobs, and sponsorship glad-handing.
Thanks, but I'll stick with Mobil-1 and my roll-your-own solution.
What a ****in shit show.
Who are you saying is an idiot. And why sue people for talking about your product? There may be quite a bit of garbage in this thread but there are people with experience on bith sides debating merit.
I hope the FireClean people sue the crap out of the idiot who started this thread and their competitors who have piled on here.
from LAV
So I've gotten numerous requests to weigh in on the' FIREClean is Crisco' drama so here goes;
1) I have no first hand knowledge of the FIREClean formula as the two brothers behind it have never shared the specific recipe with me. In fact they have never shared it with anyone that I am aware of - can't say I blame them as this is just protecting their brand
2) the FIREClean as Crisco debate doesn't pass the common sense test to me simply because FC has numerous patents pending on their product- none of which would ever be valid if it is simply a commercial off the shelf product like Crisco. Surely I'm not the only one who has wondered about this ? But then again if there was an agenda involved to smear FC then common sense would not be present on any level - and all indicators are that was the case
3) I'm puzzled on why some people are up in arms about it being a vegetable based product ? It's a 'Green' Eco Friendly product so that rules out Petroleum based - that only leaves plants and trees for the potential sources of the lubricant used. So what ?
4) the only problem I have had with it is thickening up on a 1911 I had in storage ( in fact some of you may remember my reporting that here in my FB page awhile back ) - after talking to the FC guys we determined I most likely applied it too thick AND I had not completely cleaned off any old non FC lubricant. It has been discovered that FC will react and thicken with some other products on the market so a thorough degrease is critical before application. This seems to be more critical with some weapons than others and the 1911 is the poster child. I do have a friend that has applied it on his 1911 as per exact FC instructions and has had no issues at all. I consider this an FYI to all who are using it - on some guns the degreasing before application is absolutely critical so follow the FC instructions closely.
5) FIREClean is in use by U.S. Tier One SOF with excellent results - it's performance in fully automatic weapons and suppressed weapons is without peer; the best I have ever seen or heard of. The fact some internet blogger 'experts' recommended against military use is laughable given its actual performance in the field has been superb. Take those recommendations with a grain of salt and consider the source. As per usual.
At the end of the day I'm impressed with FIREClean's performance and based on the feedback I get from students and others that use it I am not alone. If you want to believe the haters and think Crisco is just as good and FC is overpriced that's fine by me; drive on using whatever you want - won't bother me a bit
As always I stand behind anything I say or post and have an official 'open door ' policy - if you see me at SHOT show or at a class or at the range and you want to discuss this or any other topic in person I'm good with that - come on up, introduce yourself and let's talk
Face to face - like men- not behind a keyboard
Be safe and have a good one
LAV out
Outlander Systems
09-13-15, 18:39
Ahem:
http://youtu.be/1D5Sa2Yq-2g
Here's a statement by LAV that he just put up on Facebook an hour ago.
**************
Here is an official statement from FIREClean about the recent allegations that it is nothing more than Crisco;
FIREClean™ Advanced Gun Oil is a specifically formulated, technically superior weapon reliability solution that resists the harshest firing with enormous heat and carbon overload that seize most weapons. It is a formulation- made specifically for exceptional reliability in firearms and weapons- not a re-labeled or re-packaged product.
Rest assured that we will defend our good name against false, defamatory and libelous...blah blah blah...vomit
"technically superior"
"weapon reliability solution"
Only thing missing is, "Incredible Prestigigitacious Linament and Weapon Salve."
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the "enormous heat" generated by a +/- 200-Degree Bolt Carrier Group.
Oh well.
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