View Full Version : New LMT or ammo problem?
I took my new LMT to the range today to sight it in. I was using Wolf boxed Privi Partsan m193. All went well for about 150 rounds. On the last Mag I was shooting double tap shots and the gun jammed. I tried the foward assist, I tried to pull the charging handle back and couldnt pull it back. It had a live round stuck in the chamber.
I took me a while to figure out what to do. I finally was able to push out both take down pins( just the rear wouldnt work because the carrier was back against the buffer about 3/16") and remove the upper. The bolt was stuck part was near the lugs but the carrier could rock back and forth a little. I was able to get a screw driver and gently pry between the lug area and the front of the carrier. It didnt require much force at all. The round looks messed up where the bullet seats(see pic) . Is this an ammo problem or a rifle problem? I didnt try anymore rounds after this. I took the rifle home and cleaned it. It realy wasnt that dirty.
Funny thing was the range master sugested that I try knocking the round out from the barrel end with a cleaning rod!
Thanks for any help.
Blankwaffe
07-27-08, 04:21
I would clean the chamber with a chamber brush and clean the bore well,lube the BCG and upper etc....mainly due to the fact its a new rifle.
First thing I would do is inspect the mags and the rest of the ammo.Ive had a bad mag cause the rounds to deform while feeding and jam in the chamber or barrel extension similar to what your reporting.Could have been a bad round as well.
Number your mags so you can quickly identify a mag if there is an issue.
One way Ive found to clear jams like you have seen is to drop the mag,kneel down on one knee,pull back on the charging handle with it cupped in the web of your hand between your index finger and thumb,muzzle up palm of your hand facing the ground.Free hand grasping the forearm.Then bump the buttstock on the ground as you apply light downward pressure to the charging handle until the round is ejected.Do be aware of muzzle discipline and do not sweep your head body or anyone else.
Im sure someone here will probably have better or more up to date advice...but thats how I was shown to clear a jam in a hurry.
The range or cleaning rod as mentioned will do the job as well.
AllAmerican
07-27-08, 08:47
Question. Was your ammo in a bulk packed package i.e. ammo can? I have seen some rounds packed like that and some are dented, or bullet bent. Just an idea, you might want to look at some of the rounds, at least I think that would be a good place to start. LMT is a fine weapon!
Good luck
Jack
Thanks for the replies, I have the Mags marked (they are new Pmags), the ammo was in 20 rd boxes. I think the butt on the ground may have worked. I didnt want to use a cleaning rod for fear of pushing the primer against the firing pin. I think it was ammo related I just wanted to be sure.
I was at an indoor range and could only shoot 25yds, was impressed with the acureac. I could put all 30rds of a mag into a little over an inch. My old mini 14 would heat up and walk rounds up the target. This rifle was a pleasure to shoot.
rifleshooter
07-27-08, 11:14
Myself I would never ever use Wolf Ammo. in any firearm my own or even a rental.
AllAmerican
07-27-08, 11:20
Myself I would never ever use Wolf Ammo. in any firearm my own or even a rental.
Is Wolf the steel case ammo? If so that would be a sin as far as I am concerned. I could not run steel cases into a steel chamber, just does not make sense at all to me. IMHO could not do it in good consious no matter how cheap it is........
rifleshooter
07-27-08, 11:24
Is Wolf the steel case ammo? If so that would be a sin as far as I am concerned. I could not run steel cases into a steel chamber, just does not make sense at all to me. IMHO could not do it in good consious no matter how cheap it is........
You are correct Sir it's steel cased and thats enough to send me far away from using it.;)
AllAmerican
07-27-08, 11:27
You are correct Sir it's steel cased and thats enough to send me far away from using it.;)
That is what I thought. Sacrilidge! If I had any I would not even give it away, just throw it away. IMO it should only be used by the Russians! ;)
Thanks for clearing that up for me!
From my reloading experience that looks to be an ammo issue.
I agree. I can't imagine a scenario where a rifle could to that to the caseneck with the bullet still seated.
One bad round. Don't sweat it.
No it is not steel cased. It is privi partsan brass cased nato spec M193. You can see in the photo that it is brass cased. The head stamp is "PPU07 5.56x45"
It is just boxed by Wolf, Wolf dosnt actually make all their own ammo.
AllAmerican
07-27-08, 11:51
No it is not steel cased. It is privi partsan brass cased nato spec M193. You can see in the photo that it is brass cased. The head stamp is "PPU07 5.56x45"
It is just boxed by Wolf, Wolf dosnt actually make all their own ammo.
I missed the picture.... Yes I'd say that is a just a bad round...
rifleshooter
07-27-08, 12:02
No it is not steel cased. It is privi partsan brass cased nato spec M193. You can see in the photo that it is brass cased. The head stamp is "PPU07 5.56x45"
It is just boxed by Wolf, Wolf dosnt actually make all their own ammo.
I stay with quality Ammo. that gets quality control batch inspections. Black Hills does this even with their reloaded Ammos.
LM&T fires all their ARs before shipping them even the fast selling line of Defender 2000s. They try really hard to ship a quality rifle IMO. I sure don't think it's a LM&T problem.;)
I have personally shot plenty of Wolf steel cased stuff from my LMT and my range buddies have also. Never any problems. The most Wolf I have ever put through it without cleaning is probabley in the area of 250-300rds. The only weapons that have problems with it is a RRA and Bushmaster when they get hot.
Do not believe all the hype. Try it out in your own weapon and see if it runs. If it does run good, more cheap practice. If it jams your rifle every 100 rounds or so you will get good at clearing malfunctions. Which is good IMHO.
Wolf is dirty though So just be smart and bring the right gear to the range to prevent badness.
As for the steel casing hurting your chamber. Your chambers steel is MUCH MUCH harder.
Check out http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm and read up on wolf
Cool artical, Thanks. What kind of groups can you get with the wolf and your LMT?
hillmillenia
07-27-08, 20:41
Myself I would never ever use Wolf Ammo. in any firearm my own or even a rental.
I wouldn't shoot steel cased ammo through a AR rifle either no matter the manufacturer however I do shoot it through this and have never had the slightest problem...;)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/hillmillenia/closedfolder.jpg
AllAmerican
07-27-08, 21:42
[QUOTE=hillmillenia;197515]I wouldn't shoot steel cased ammo through a AR rifle either no matter the manufacturer however I do shoot it through this and have never had the slightest problem...;)
+1 Now there is a weapon that I might shoot steel case ammo in,,, If someone gave the ammo to me. I have not heard any 'hype' about it. As far as extensive use of brass case ammo, I only have my military background to fall back on, and I could not guess how many thousands of rounds I fired in 22 months in SE Asia. I think if it was good ammo the military would have picked up on it. There must be something about shooting steel on steel......
I have asked a few knowledgable gunsmiths about it and they all said stay away from steel case ammo in an AR. Especially a good rifle.
Just the steel on steel is contrary to everything I know about weapons.....
For me it is a no brainer, I will not go there. If works for you more power to you. Just my .02 worth. ;)
Good Shooting!
Jack
I took my new LMT to the range today to sight it in. I was using Wolf boxed Privi Partsan m193. All went well for about 150 rounds. On the last Mag I was shooting double tap shots and the gun jammed. I tried the foward assist, I tried to pull the charging handle back and couldnt pull it back. It had a live round stuck in the chamber.
I took me a while to figure out what to do. I finally was able to push out both take down pins( just the rear wouldnt work because the carrier was back against the buffer about 3/16") and remove the upper. The bolt was stuck part was near the lugs but the carrier could rock back and forth a little. I was able to get a screw driver and gently pry between the lug area and the front of the carrier. It didnt require much force at all. The round looks messed up where the bullet seats(see pic) . Is this an ammo problem or a rifle problem? I didnt try anymore rounds after this. I took the rifle home and cleaned it. It realy wasnt that dirty.
Funny thing was the range master sugested that I try knocking the round out from the barrel end with a cleaning rod!
Thanks for any help.
I had seen this condition a couple of times in factory loaded 45. It has been many years since I've seen it though. It happened with UMC 45. From reloading years ago my guess would be it happened during the crimping stage but again this is just a guess. It is good pratice to inspect each round when loading mags, I used to not do this (trusted the manufacture's QC) but due age and experiences (such as your's) I load mags slower and inspect each round as I go now.
buckshot1220
07-27-08, 23:01
Looks like a QC issue with the ammo, not with your gun. As far as Wolf goes everyone has their own opinion on the steel cased stuff. I run it almost exclusively in my AK, but my AR and Mini-14 have never seen a steel cased round. It's just my preference, doesn't mean it's right.
[QUOTE=hillmillenia;197515]I wouldn't shoot steel cased ammo through a AR rifle either no matter the manufacturer however I do shoot it through this and have never had the slightest problem...;)
+1 Now there is a weapon that I might shoot steel case ammo in,,, If someone gave the ammo to me. I have not heard any 'hype' about it. As far as extensive use of brass case ammo, I only have my military background to fall back on, and I could not guess how many thousands of rounds I fired in 22 months in SE Asia. I think if it was good ammo the military would have picked up on it. There must be something about shooting steel on steel......
I have asked a few knowledgable gunsmiths about it and they all said stay away from steel case ammo in an AR. Especially a good rifle.
Just the steel on steel is contrary to everything I know about weapons.....
For me it is a no brainer, I will not go there. If works for you more power to you. Just my .02 worth. ;)
Good Shooting!
Jack
There are different levels of steel. With extremely different properties. The casings are no where near the same strength as a chamber or extractor.
That rhetoric sounds like you would be a fool to use metal casings in a metal chamber.
Blankwaffe
07-28-08, 03:25
Ive shot alot of the Wolf steel cased ammo over the years with only a few issues.
It is underpowered,dirty and can be unreliable at times due to being dirty and under powered.I know for a fact the .45ACP cases have incorrect rims...so some 1911's dont eject very well.
In 5.56 I personally prefer the 62gr. FMJ.The bullets have much more pronounced bearing surface and are more accurate in my opinion.
IMHO it is only good for range use and training.The reason I say its good for training is that it opens up the door for possible weapon failures such as jams due to the reasons posted above.This gives a person more experience with how to properly and immediately clear a weapon.Kind of a rotten reason to use the ammo though I agree.
Overall the Wolf is fairly accurate and reliable considering how cheap the price is.Being affordable it allows me to spend more time behind the trigger which helps my wallet out dramatically considering how much time I spend at the range.
Key to using the Wolf in an AR is to do PM on the weapon after each use.That includes using a bore brush to remove the crap from the chamber.I'd recommend a bore solvent like Hoppe's No.9 to aid in cleaning rather than just CLP.
As far as the steel cases...they are extremely soft and I do not think they could come close to damaging a chromed chamber.
I will say I do not go out of my way to buy the wolf.If its available cheap locally I'll buy it.Otherwise I use UMC,Fed,WIN or BH for range ammo.
No it is not steel cased. It is privi partsan brass cased nato spec M193. You can see in the photo that it is brass cased. The head stamp is "PPU07 5.56x45"
It is just boxed by Wolf, Wolf dosnt actually make all their own ammo.
At least in other calibers, Wolf Gold is the PRVI made line. I bought a bunch of 303 and 6.5x55 and I bought both the Wolf Gold and PRVI marked boxes and was surprised to see they were the same... And the prices were different. Wolf Gold was more expensive than the PP marked boxes. Good info to know!
I just had an experience with a similarly bad round. This is a factory WWB 9mm cartridge. It's from a batch of replacement ammunition that I received from Winchester after sending in (on their dime) a bunch of Ammoman-purchased NATO 9mm which was VERY unevenly loaded. After several near squibs and one actual squib with the Winchester NATO 9mm, this is a round from their replacement offering (they would not send me replacement NATO because they said this ammunition was only for the military). If so, I worry for the guys using it.... So, suffice it to say, I'm sort of on the fence when it comes to Winny ammunition right now. :(
Oh, and of course, they said they could find zero fault with the ammunition I sent in. I'm just shooting G19's and a G34. No aftermarket barrels or similar mods to the guns. Guns have been fine with any other ammo.
http://www.imagecoast.com/images/SoundFX/dsc02190.jpg
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AllAmerican
07-29-08, 20:00
[QUOTE=Solid;197545]
There are different levels of steel. With extremely different properties. The casings are no where near the same strength as a chamber or extractor.
That rhetoric sounds like you would be a fool to use metal casings in a metal chamber.
I'm pretty sure my quote says "steel on steel", but I could be reading my quote wrong.
Can you list the "different levels of steel. With extremely different properties"? What is there composition, or property makeup so we can make an informed opinion about the shell casings???
Wolf makes their cases from very mild (low carbon) steel. It will not harm your rifle. Your barrel and extractor are much harder and tougher than Wolf cartridge cases. Many, if not most, countries, including the good old US of A have used steel cartridge cases. People who say they will harm your rifle are ignorant at best.
MBR
hillmillenia
07-29-08, 20:41
Wolf makes their cases from very mild (low carbon) steel. It will not harm your rifle. Your barrel and extractor are much harder and tougher than Wolf cartridge cases. Many, if not most, countries, including the good old US of A have used steel cartridge cases. People who say they will harm your rifle are ignorant at best.
MBR
Ouch! you been talking with my old lady? I may not be a metalurgist but
I know several AR manufacturer's manuals state shooting metal cased ammo will void the warranty...and you DON'T want to void the warranty...hell your rifle may fail in a fire fight and you'll pay hell getting a refund!:D
[QUOTE=Solid;197580]
I'm pretty sure my quote says "steel on steel", but I could be reading my quote wrong.
Can you list the "different levels of steel. With extremely different properties"? What is there composition, or property makeup so we can make an informed opinion about the shell casings???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AISI_steel_grades
Are you suggesting that Wolf casings are made with steel on par with extractors, bolts, or chambers?
There is even a Wolf wiki :lol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Ammunition
There theory goes further than mine stating that due to the coating there is never any steel on steel contact to begin with.
Wow, I didnt think I would start a steel on steel debate. I just wanted to be shure it was an ammo problem not a gun problem. That one round was the only bad round, I opened six more boxes and didnt see any problems with any other rounds. I also looked the gun over and it looks fine. I realy love this rifle!
I never said there weren't other issues associated with Wolf ammo, just that steel cases will not harm your rifle. They probably will not honor their warranty if you fire Wolf simply because they don't want to deal with the inevitable myriad of customers saying their rifles are short stroking. Wolf is known to be a little underpowered, somewhat dirty, and inaccurate. It's fine for plinking though.
MBR
I have been shooting allot of Wolf in my TE gas piston uppers just to get my round counts up, and I can tell ya it is inconsistent, both in the pressures and case size! It is dirty and not as accurate as some of the other ammo, but it is priced right and is very good for practice ammo. You should make sure you have a 100% nato 5.56 chamber in your barrel and not any of the match or wylde chambers or you WILL have problems with stuck FTE cases. A tight chamber making the cases stick could present some extractor damage if it happens enough, but with a nato chamber I have not found any extractor damage in my TE uppers after all the wolf I have shot.
Many different countries have used steel cased ammo in different rifle platforms and have not had any problems. In WW2 due to brass shortages steel cased ammo was manufactured and used by most of the armies.....................
AllAmerican
07-30-08, 08:12
Wow, I didnt think I would start a steel on steel debate. I just wanted to be shure it was an ammo problem not a gun problem. That one round was the only bad round, I opened six more boxes and didnt see any problems with any other rounds. I also looked the gun over and it looks fine. I realy love this rifle!
No problems, people tend to get off target here.....
If you think the ammo is OK go ahead and use it. I think you just got a bad round. Personally, I will steer clear of Wolf ammo in general and steel case ammo w/polymer in particular. Just my preference. These arguments can go on for months, and frankly, I don't have the energy for it that I use to.
Good shooting!
Blankwaffe
07-31-08, 07:11
I just had an experience with a similarly bad round. This is a factory WWB 9mm cartridge. It's from a batch of replacement ammunition that I received from Winchester after sending in (on their dime) a bunch of Ammoman-purchased NATO 9mm which was VERY unevenly loaded. After several near squibs and one actual squib with the Winchester NATO 9mm, this is a round from their replacement offering (they would not send me replacement NATO because they said this ammunition was only for the military). If so, I worry for the guys using it.... So, suffice it to say, I'm sort of on the fence when it comes to Winny ammunition right now. :(
Oh, and of course, they said they could find zero fault with the ammunition I sent in. I'm just shooting G19's and a G34. No aftermarket barrels or similar mods to the guns. Guns have been fine with any other ammo.
http://www.imagecoast.com/images/SoundFX/dsc02190.jpg
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I guess the old practice of eye balling each round as its loaded into the mag pays off huh.
I thought it was just my OCD.
My primary concern has always been loose bullets and high primers.
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