Need help with optics for new 9mm SBR [Archive]

Bret

07-27-08, 15:10

I just picked up my 9mm RRA SBR from my FFL. Here's a picture:
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/593/rightsideviewgi7.jpg

I think that I want to get some sort of red dot optical sight, but that's where my knowledge ends. I really don't know jack about the AR15 optics options. I'm not going to war or anything, so I don't need something that is GI proof. At the same time, I hate cheap junk and the possibility does exist that a little banging around might happen. My guess for my budget is about $200 or so. I would appreciate any input that ya'll have to offer.

rob_s

07-27-08, 15:12

Double the budget and pick up an Aimpoint C3. Best deal in the optics market IMHO.

Failure2Stop

07-28-08, 05:08

Double the budget and pick up an Aimpoint C3. Best deal in the optics market IMHO.

This advice is worth hundreds of dollars, sacrificed to the malevolent optics gods. It would restore my faith in humanity if the next post was the OP saying that he just ordered the C3.

I'm not holding my breath.

Jay Cunningham

07-28-08, 05:13

This advice is worth hundreds of dollars, sacrificed to the malevolent optics gods. It would restore my faith in humanity if the next post was the OP saying that he just ordered the C3.

I'm not holding my breath.

Oh Ye of Little Faith!

Bret

07-28-08, 09:32

Failure2Stop, I'm not a cheapo. I just want to know why I should spend $X on what I'm buying. If I need a $400 sight, then I need to know why a $200 sight is not a good choice, but the $400 sight is. Please educate me. I am willing to spend. I just don't want to overspend on something that I'm not likely to get the utility out of.

rob_s

07-28-08, 10:04

Failure2Stop

07-28-08, 10:24

I am starting to feel like an Aimpoint shill, but I do have some experience with a few optics, and the Aimpoints truly are the benchmark when it comes to red dot sights (RDS).

They are tough, rugged, dependable, and have obscene battery life (something like 50,000 hours on setting 7). No other red-dot can claim the level of performance, durability, and battery-life of the Aimpoints. The closest contender is the EoTech line, and they have issues, as well as a similar price-tag.

The C3 basically the Comp M3 without all the military strength stuff (gross simplification on my part here). You give up night-vision settings and deep waterproofing for a greatly lowered price, making it a great choice for a lifetime of civilian use. Another thing to consider is the mount. Aimpoint mounts (the ones worth buying) will run you a little over $100.

I think that the T-1 or H-1 would be great for a 9mm SBR, but they are well over what you say is your ball-park. Without the price constraint, given your intended use, I would recommend a H-1 w/ mount for about $580.

As it is, you can have a C3 for about $380. Mount for $115 (LaRue, ADM is $105). That puts you out about $500, but it is the last optic you will need to buy for that application. Or you can throw $200 optics at the issue a few times, as well as a few bad mounts and you will wind up paying a lot more.

If you just want to buy the cheapest thing, fine (really), but if you want something to last and still deliver, the C3 is damn hard to beat. Do a search on "Aimpoint" here and you will find out far more than you could ever hope for.

RD62

07-28-08, 10:51

For me, RDS have a quality threshold. I don't know of any products that sell for under $400 that I would even consider.

For example, the Tacpoint (http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FG&Product_Code=2210&Category_Code=_SALEOPTICS) that meets your budget requirements. The initial savings is quickly offset when the POS fails and you have to buy a new one. Now you've spent C3 money and still only have a Tacpoint to show for it.

I have seen too many Tacpoints, and their ilk, fail at matches and classes to even consider one. Even for a toy. Remember too that a 9mm is going to recoil harder than a 5.56 so the life expectancy of a Tacpoint on a 9mm is even shorter.

Maybe you could post some of the $200 optics you're considering and we could try to explain why a genuine Aimpoint is the better buy.

Rob,

I don't know the battery life of the Tacpoint (although I doubt it's 50,000 hours), but I seem to remember a post or chart you did outlining the cost over the life of a RDS, due to battery consumption. This would seem worth mentioning as well, if the cost of batteries for a cheaper sight negated the initial expense of the C3 you mentioned.

Just thought that a point worth mentioning.

-RD62

P.S. My next optic purchase will be a C3 from Grant.

Bret

07-28-08, 19:25

What do ya'll think about the ML3? It's not much more than the C3. Is it worth the extra expense. Also, what about mounts? I don't know jack about them either.

Failure2Stop

07-29-08, 07:22

I like the ML3, but I don't know if the cost over the C3 is justified for most users. However- G&R offers package deals with the ML3 that are pretty reasonable.

I really like the LaRue mounts. The ADM mounts have a good following as well, but I have not personally used one. Several others on this board use and endorse them, so I would consider them to be a safe buy. Aimpoint has mounts as well, but I have only used older issued mounts and didn't really like them. That's just me though, someone else might think they are great.

There are basically two approcahes to Aimpoint mounts- Standard and Cantilever.
The cantilever pushes the optic forward for use with a 3X magnifier or mounted night vision aid. Unless you are going to use the 3x or a NOD there really isn't a need unless you like the optic further forward than the standard mount allows. Some people like the optic mounted more rearward (seems even more popular with the T-1/H-1 due to the reduced tube size), just forward of the BUIS. It's personal preference with this.

The links below are to the manufacturer's web-sites. You can get better prices by checking around the board sponsors.

LaRue LT-150 (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=26) (Standard mount)
LaRue Lt-129 (http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=37) (Cantilever Mount)
ADM High Mount (http://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3) (Standard lower 1/3 cowitness)
ADM Cantilever (http://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=4)

G&R also offers package deals, you can find them on their web-site.

That aside, if you are willing to spend a little more, the H-1 or T-1 would be great for an SBR.

Just my .02. YMMV

Failure2Stop

07-30-08, 06:09

Just an FYI-
Grant (G&R Tactical) has a package deal with the C3 and ADM mount for $450, in stock.

Bret

07-30-08, 17:27

What about the reticle size, 2 or 4 MOA? My shooting will be mostly 50yds or less.

Also, what do ya'll think about the ARMS #22M68 mount? G&R has the Aimpoint ML3 with an ARMS #22M68 mount for $513.

RD62

07-30-08, 17:31

I'd skip the ARMS mount.

Personally I would take (and will soon enough) the C3 Rob mentioned in the ADM mount. I'd prefer the 2MOA dot for the occasional longer shot.

-RD62

rob_s

07-30-08, 18:06

I'd also skip the ARMS.

C3 4 MOA in an LT or ADM straight mount for a 9mm SBR.

It's what will be going on mine if Anvil ever gets their act together.

Bret

07-30-08, 18:49

Why is the Larue or ADM mount better than the ARMS. I trust your experience, but would still like to understand why.

30 cal slut

08-01-08, 12:59

aimpoing all the way, dude.

with a 9 mm SBR, you won't need a magnified optic.

i ran a RRA 9mm + Aimpoint Comp C2 (ARMS mounts) in a shoothouse at night. it was a beautiful experience ... dem things are dead nuts accurate.

i'd also recommend a surefire G2 ($40) and a suitable mount.

jlficken

08-01-08, 15:24

Why is the Larue or ADM mount better than the ARMS. I trust your experience, but would still like to understand why.

I'm no expert on mounts but from my understanding (based on looking for an EOTech mount) that the Larue and ADM mounts allow for adjustments of the cam mechanism so that you can effectively tighten them so there is no wiggle. The ARMS mount has no adjustability so if you have a slightly out of spec receiver it won't ever tighten or if it loosens for some other reason (maybe wear?) you are SOL as well.

Buck50

08-01-08, 20:10

First let me say that I have several Aimpoints and an EOTech. But if you end up sticking to your budget, may I suggest the Burris XTS-135 with a 3MOA dot. I have four or five of them (two on 9mm carbines) and have had very good luck with them. They're not Aimpoints (I wouldn't take them into battle), but they've been great at the range. Midway often has these for just over $200.

Also, it basically has the same dimensions as the Aimpoint so any mount for an Aimpoint will work with it.

Bret

08-02-08, 21:07

I really appreciate everyone's input. I've decided that I'm probably going to go with the Aimpoint ML3 with a LaRue mount. Unfortunately, G&R tactical is out of the LaRue mounts right now. If you know of somewhere else I can get a package deal at a good price, please let me know. Meanwhile, I ordered a Troy front folding sight (I already have the rear) so I can get my new rifle to the range and give it a reliability test.
http://www.jtacsupply.com/images/products/detail/TroyM4Sight.jpg

jlficken

08-02-08, 21:17

Direct from Larue would be your next best bet.

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=20

$541 w/ standard mount. $25 more for cantilleavor.

Otherwise if Grant still has the open box ML3 get it plus a mount direct from Larue. That's what I did.

SethB

08-02-08, 22:09

If you get rid of the gas block and put a 9 inch rail on you'll really clean the rifle up and make her look better. And lighter.

Bret

08-04-08, 23:03

I received the Troy BUIS from G&R today. Wow, that was fast!

I mounted it on my new rifle. Unfortunately, the front sight post appears to be off toward the right side of the rifle instead of in the center of the bore-line:
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6347/fronttroybuisonrra9mmym4.jpg

I put it on my Armalite to see if I would get the same results. The same thing happens:
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6379/fronttroybuisonarmalitepd4.jpg
Everything was tight. Any ideas on what it could be?

rob_s

08-05-08, 09:16

Shoot it.

See if it can be zeroed.

If you can't zero it, let Grant know.

If you can, let us know.

davemcdonald

08-05-08, 09:44

Grant also carries ADM mounts and that is another option to think about.

Dave

Bret

08-05-08, 21:25

I called Troy about the front BUIS. They were very helpful. I emailed the pictures above. The guy I spoke with said someone will call me back. I got to thinking about how I could determine if it's the sights versus the rifles. It then struck me that I could mount the front and rear BUIS on the upper receiver and fold them down. The middle of the front sight post should be in the middle of the rear sight hole. Here's the results:
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/815/troybuissmountedonarmalum1.jpg
What do you think?

Bret

08-07-08, 19:53

I had about a fifteen minute conversation with a guy at Troy today. He was very knowledgeable and went in to great detail about the sights. I'll spare you all the details, but one of the main points that he explained was the significant variance they see in rails. They manufacture the sights to fit the average width of rails that are available on the market, but if a rail is too wide or too thin, the sight can be off to the left or right. He further discussed the tolerances they hold, so he was confident that was I received is good. Still, he offered several times to take back one or both of my sights to make sure they were made correctly. In the end, we agreed that I would mount them on my rifle and sight them in. He said that if I wasn't satisfied with the results, I could still sent them to him to take a look at. Suffice it to say that I'm very impressed with their customer service. I know that they deal mostly with very large orders, but they still took the time to explain their product to a somewhat ignorant consumer. If the opportunity presents itself again, I'll definitely buy another Troy sight. Now, on to the show-off picture. He's my rifle with the Troy sights mounted.
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6302/rightsideviewnewyj9.jpg

Bret

08-09-08, 09:40

Is there any practical difference between the ML3 and the M4S other than the M4S having its built in mount and being night vision compatible? Is the M4S mount worthy?

kalikraven

08-09-08, 12:19

If the front and rear sight were mounted on the same rail then would'nt the tolerance of the rail not be an issue? I would think that the front sight is out of tolerance. If you put both sights on the railed portion of the upper receaver I bet that you will get the same results, thus proving that the front and rear sight are not in tolerance with each other.

Bret

08-09-08, 12:51

If the front and rear sight were mounted on the same rail then would'nt the tolerance of the rail not be an issue?
Here's how it was explained to me and I agree after looking the sights over. Both the front and rear sight line up a fixed distance from the right side of the rail, not the center. If the rail is perfectly within specifications and the sight is perfectly within specifications, the sight will be perfectly centered on the rail. However, if the rail is over the correct width, the sight will be off to the right. If it's under the correct width, the sight will be off to the left. Assume for a moment that I mounted the sights on the same rail and sights are both made correctly. If the rail is over the correct width, both will be off to the right. If the rail is under the correct width, both will be off to the left. In either case, relative to each other, they will still be aligned. They'll just be aligned to the left or the right. When I turned one of the sights around to see if they would line up with each other, it really didn't prove that one or both of the sights were out of spec. What it showed was that one of the sights was out of spec., both of the sights were out of spec., and/or the rail was out of spec. My guess at this point is that the rail is slightly out of spec. We could also simply be dealing with a case of tolerances stacking. Or, we might be dealing with a case of me just being too anal retentive. If I can zero the rifle without having to adjust the rear sight too much, I'll be happy.

kalikraven

08-09-08, 13:06

Your explanation makes sense to me.... if the front part of your rail was out of spec and the rear part of the same rail was in spec. What I'm trying to say is that if you put your front and rear sights on the same piece of any rail either in spec or out, if the rail is the same width the entire length both your front and rear sights would line up with each other, either to the right or the left. Now if you get what you have in your picture, where the sights don't line up with each other on the same piece of rail (assuming that the rail is the same width the entire length) then one of your sights would be out of spec, as they are not made to be lined up with each other.

Now if I missed something that your wrote I'm hopeless as I can't comprehend anything other than what I wrote in my above post. :confused:

Bret

08-09-08, 14:40

In the picture that shows two sights, one of them is on backwards.

If I had them both facing the same direction and they didn't line up, then one would definitely be out of spec.

Robb Jensen

08-09-08, 14:47

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6302/rightsideviewnewyj9.jpg

Bret I'm 99.9% sure that you are likely not going to be able to sight in this gun configure this way elevation wise. Look very closely at the gas block and then the receiver. The gas blocks rail is lower than the receiver. The Troy front sight is meant for a rail that is equal in height to the receiver. Since this is a 9-sillymeter just get a 9"-10" rail and completely remove the clamp on faux gas block and mount your Troy front sight to it. I'd highly recommend a Daniel Defence 9" Omega or a Daniel Defense 10" Lite Rail.

kalikraven

08-09-08, 14:54

Bret thanks for filling me in on that, now we are all on the same page. :cool: I did'nt realize that one of the sights was backwards.

Bret

08-09-08, 15:13

gotm4, thanks for letting me know. I hate when I miss the obvious.:mad: I never thought about the possibility of the elevation being different. I guess I assumed that since it was a front sight and would mount on the fake gas block rail, that's was it was designed to go on. On Troy's website it even says "They are easily installed and position the apertures at the exact same height as the factory sights". I guess that I should have bought the red dot sight first? Since I like the look/feel of the rifle and wasn't going to keep these sights on it permanently, I really don't want to install a different rail. Does anyone make a rail to mount on top of the fake front sight rail that would get it up to the proper height?

Robb Jensen

08-09-08, 15:17

RyanB

08-09-08, 22:58

Like several other posters have suggest, ditch the gas block and install a 9 or 10 inch rail. Then bolt the sight to the rail.

Bret

08-11-08, 16:27

It would restore my faith in humanity if the next post was the OP saying that he just ordered the C3.
Well, I didn't order a C3. I decided to go with the Micro H-1. Hopefully that will restore your faith in humanity. It probably won't last too long though. The election is only three months away.

Failure2Stop

08-12-08, 10:54

Well, I didn't order a C3. I decided to go with the Micro H-1. Hopefully that will restore your faith in humanity. It probably won't last too long though. The election is only three months away.

:D
Hope you enjoy it- faith restored.

Bret

08-16-08, 16:34

I got the H-1. Where is the best place on the rail to mount it?

Parabellum9x19mm

08-17-08, 02:51

as far forward on your receiver as possible.

RallySoob

08-18-08, 09:13

save some money and get an EOTech 512.A65.... And its 1MOA, Faster than any aimpoint. Proven to be the better entry sight over and over again :D

Bret

08-18-08, 21:50

OK, I got the H-1 mounted to the front of the rail. Unfortunately, it seems like it's sitting too low. Perhaps this is because I'm use to the regular AR15 iron sights or perhaps it's because I wear glasses. It just seems like the dot needs to be where the top of the H-1 is. Is there something I can do to boost this thing up?
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9871/rightsideviewwithaimpoigg9.jpg

rob_s

08-18-08, 22:36

Yes, you need a riser for it. What you should have ordered was a package deal like this one from Grant with the ADM mount (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=APH1ADMICRO) which probably only cost a few dollars more than you spent on the H-1 by itself.

rob_s

08-18-08, 22:37

save some money and get an EOTech 512.A65.... And its 1MOA, Faster than any aimpoint. Proven to be the better entry sight over and over again :D

I'm curious to know how something like this could ever be "proven".

Bret

08-18-08, 22:47

I paid $449 delivered for the H-1. Are there other risers besides the ADM? Which one is best for the $$$ and why?

Paulinski

08-18-08, 22:51

I use LaRue mount for my H1.

Parabellum9x19mm

08-18-08, 23:23

i have the ADM mount and it is more versatile than the LaRue because of the modular risers. its also cheaper.

that being said, i still prefer LaRue levers. if i get another micro, i think i will get the LaRue mount on the second go around.

Bret

08-19-08, 17:59

I think that I want the dot at the same height as a regular AR15 rear sight. Which mount and riser would accomplish this?

Parabellum9x19mm

08-19-08, 18:06

LaRue Tall or ADM SOCOM is ideal for the AR.

the nice thing about the ADM mount is you can get a lower riser in the future if you decide to use it on another weapon, with the LaRue tall mount you will only be able to use it on an AR pretty much.

they're both good mounts, comes down to personal preference.

Bret

11-09-08, 08:53

I've fired my 9mm using the factory mount that came with the H1. The red dot seems to sit between 3/4" and 7/8" lower than it should naturally be when I shoulder the rifle.
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1/leftsideviewwithaimpoinci7.jpg
My question now is which American Defense mount height, CO or SOCOM, will get me to where I'd like to be. To put this question another way, how much higher are the CO and SOCOM heights versus the standard factory mount?

Also, since its been a little while since I first started asking about mounts, are there any new options available?