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In the Fun Stock Picks (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?172604-Your-quot-fun-quot-stock-picks) thread a short while ago, I'd mentioned Tesla as a pick for "fun" volatile stock possibly worth grabbing during the sharp drop in the market recently. Many auto analysts were sure Tesla was not to be taken seriously as a threat to the auto industry, yet German manufacturers clearly recognize such vehicles are the future and investors remain bullish on Tesla it appears. Whether this effort from German auto makers helps or harms Tesla stock values, I'm not sure.I hope it helps as competition is generally a good thing! I'm hoping so as a stock holder! ;)
Tired of Tesla? German Automakers Ready An Electric Blitzkrieg
After years of watching Tesla Motors steal sales and attention with the all-electric Tesla Model S, German automakers are finally striking back with several high-volume production EVs of their own — seeking to outflank the California start-up, even as they struggle to make sense of the electric car business.
Three years from now will see the launch of two all-electric models from Audi and Porsche based on concepts revealed at the Frankfurt Motor Show this week. Both the e-tron Quattro and Porsche Mission E production vehicles will feature a range of about 310 miles, with massive floor-mounted lithium-ion battery packs — just like Tesla builds with the Model S sedan and upcoming Model X SUV.
In addition, Mercedes-Benz will have its own unique electric vehicle for high-volume production within a similar time and with a similar driving range. Thomas Weber, Mercedes chief of research and development, says the first volume EV with a Mercedes badge will not be a variant of a current vehicle, but compete in a “new space.”
Those models will join the BMW i3 and i8 electric cars, which BMW execs have said would portend additional all-electric models.
“This is our first bigger volume (electric) car, and we will see how the customer is accepting of that,” said Ulrich Hackenberg, head of research and development for Audi. “If you look over a long time e-mobility will have a very dominant function.”
Pics, more intel etc HERE (https://www.yahoo.com/autos/tired-of-tesla-german-automakers-ready-an-129143552727.html)
Eurodriver
09-15-15, 12:38
Electric cars will never go anywhere catering to the rich, and are futile as stewards of the environment when the power to charge them comes from fossil fuels and dams.
Wish they'd allow small diesel cars into the USA like they have in Europe. Mofos on top gear drove from Switzerland to Northern England on 10 gallons in one.
Moose-Knuckle
09-15-15, 12:44
Electric cars will never go anywhere catering to the rich, and are futile as stewards of the environment when the power to charge them comes from fossil fuels and dams.
Wish they'd allow small diesel cars into the USA like they have in Europe. Mofos on top gear drove from Switzerland to Northern England on 10 gallons in one.
Yeah I want a Toyota Hilux with a diesel.
Electric cars will never go anywhere catering to the rich,
That's the mantra, but I don't see any reason for it in the long term as more makers adopt them, costs come down, etc etc, the usual reasons a tech may start out expensive and trickle down. All the tech in your current car was only found in luxury cars 20 years ago or less. What's on luxury cars now, will be standard on most cars in the near future.
and are futile as stewards of the environment when the power to charge them comes from fossil fuels and dams.
The claim is, it still produces far less pollution, but I have not personally looked in depth on that claim. Decent article on that debate:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2013/07/21/are-electric-cars-really-that-polluting/
Wish they'd allow small diesel cars into the USA like they have in Europe. Mofos on top gear drove from Switzerland to Northern England on 10 gallons in one.
Not sure I follow. Diesel is here and various companies offer diesel models. Americans are notoriously anti diesel and don't tend to buy them. Do you mean specific models?
Yeah I want a Toyota Hilux with a diesel.
After seeing what a Hilux can put up with in Afghanistan...hells yes.
brickboy240
09-15-15, 14:18
I was told that the reason the govt will not "allow" the importation of the Toyota Hi-Lux diesel was emissions standards.
...really?
So the Toyota dealerships will sell you a V8 4wd Tundra that gets maybe 14mpg on a good day (I used to own one...so I know) but no on the Hi-Lux that gets about 27mpg on the highway?
The damn Hi-Lux diesel gets twice the mileage but somehow the 14mpg Tundra has better emissions? How?
Oh well...GM is going to put a Duramax 4 cyl. turbo diesel in their Colorado/Canyon trucks in 2016 and the specs have it getting close to 40mpg on the highway. Thats right...40mpg hwy out of a pickup. The motor was designed by D-Max in Ohio - the same company that makes the excellent 6.6 Duramax that is in my GMC 2500.
So you might not get your diesel Hi-Lux but I'd keep an eye out for the Duramax Colorado that is coming.
Moose-Knuckle
09-15-15, 14:26
I was told that the reason the govt will not "allow" the importation of the Toyota Hi-Lux diesel was emissions standards.
...really?
So the Toyota dealerships will sell you a V8 4wd Tundra that gets maybe 14mpg on a good day (I used to own one...so I know) but no on the Hi-Lux that gets about 27mpg on the highway?
The damn Hi-Lux diesel gets twice the mileage but somehow the 14mpg Tundra has better emissions? How?
Oh well...GM is going to put a Duramax 4 cyl. turbo diesel in their Colorado/Canyon trucks in 2016 and the specs have it getting close to 40mpg on the highway. Thats right...40mpg hwy out of a pickup. The motor was designed by D-Max in Ohio - the same company that makes the excellent 6.6 Duramax that is in my GMC 2500.
So you might not get your diesel Hi-Lux but I'd keep an eye out for the Duramax Colorado that is coming.
LOL, I know our .gov . . . you just have to shake your head or fist. Especially when it comes to the frauds at the EPA.
Thanks for the heads up on the Duramax Colorado. That might the ticket next time I decide to spend the money on a new truck.
brickboy240
09-15-15, 14:50
The gov is not serious about us using less oil.
If they were, they'd have let in all of those diesels from Europe a long time ago. Most of the BMWs, Benzes and other cars made for the Euro market are diesels that get MUCH better mileage than the gas models we have to choose from in the states.
There have been Peugot, Fiat and Opel diesels that get over 50mpg over in Europe for decades. Not allowed for importation but you can buy all the Hummers and Armadas you want! LOL
JBecker 72
09-15-15, 15:05
I don't need an electric car anytime soon, but I can't wait to own an electric motorcycle of some sort. Especially an off road bike. The only reason being is I wouldn't be pissing anyone off with the noise. You can roll around stealth mode on an electric dual sport bike.
I'm never giving up gas bikes though.
Edit to add: KTM makes a promising bike, the Freeride E. Not available for sale yet though.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s73/hownowbrowncow_02/Bikes/BEDC8394-B649-4C00-8D12-2F2AEA4D2F04_zpsp1qfnzum.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/hownowbrowncow_02/media/Bikes/BEDC8394-B649-4C00-8D12-2F2AEA4D2F04_zpsp1qfnzum.jpg.html)
Electric cars will never go anywhere catering to the rich, and are futile as stewards of the environment when the power to charge them comes from fossil fuels and dams.
Wish they'd allow small diesel cars into the USA like they have in Europe. Mofos on top gear drove from Switzerland to Northern England on 10 gallons in one.
VW:
http://www.vw.com/features/clean-diesel/?&cid=ssem_Z39k96PA_71271268986_c
I was told that the reason the govt will not "allow" the importation of the Toyota Hi-Lux diesel was emissions standards.
...really?
So the Toyota dealerships will sell you a V8 4wd Tundra that gets maybe 14mpg on a good day (I used to own one...so I know) but no on the Hi-Lux that gets about 27mpg on the highway?
The damn Hi-Lux diesel gets twice the mileage but somehow the 14mpg Tundra has better emissions? How?
Oh well...GM is going to put a Duramax 4 cyl. turbo diesel in their Colorado/Canyon trucks in 2016 and the specs have it getting close to 40mpg on the highway. Thats right...40mpg hwy out of a pickup. The motor was designed by D-Max in Ohio - the same company that makes the excellent 6.6 Duramax that is in my GMC 2500.
So you might not get your diesel Hi-Lux but I'd keep an eye out for the Duramax Colorado that is coming.
Diesel emissions standards are ridiculously tight now. Combine that with the fact they use ppm standards that neglect volume of fuel burned and its a killer.
Eurodriver
09-16-15, 06:00
That's the mantra, but I don't see any reason for it in the long term as more makers adopt them, costs come down, etc etc, the usual reasons a tech may start out expensive and trickle down. All the tech in your current car was only found in luxury cars 20 years ago or less. What's on luxury cars now, will be standard on most cars in the near future.
Understood
The claim is, it still produces far less pollution, but I have not personally looked in depth on that claim. Decent article on that debate:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2013/07/21/are-electric-cars-really-that-polluting/
I'm not so sure. That link didn't work for me but when you consider the environmental impact that mining for all those metals has done to places like SE Asia and China, then to put it on a big huge tanker and ship it all to Europe...only to charge the batteries with coal? A super high MPG diesel would be far less environmentally damaging.
Not sure I follow. Diesel is here and various companies offer diesel models. Americans are notoriously anti diesel and don't tend to buy them. Do you mean specific models?
Of course we have diesel cars. They don't get 70mpg though. I don't want specific models for the look of the model. I want specific models for the fuel economy. The Volkswagen Bluemotion (Which looks just like a Golf) gets 74mpg combined city/highway
5 characters
To me, I see Tesla getting push back on their cars sooner than later. What interests me moving forward is their new home product called PowerWall (http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall) that is basically a battery pack you install in your home that stores energy when it's cheap and can back up your whole home w/o the use of combustion engines. Here in Colorado that's a big deal to mountain homes and preppers alike. Imagine installing a single, clean and quiet battery that can save you money when no emergency presents itself and continues whirring along silently when an emergency does present itself w/o missing a bit to your home electronics. To me that is the future of Tesla once the car market gets more competitive... and competition is coming.
To me, I see Tesla getting push back on their cars sooner than later. What interests me moving forward is their new home product called PowerWall (http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall) that is basically a battery pack you install in your home that stores energy when it's cheap and can back up your whole home w/o the use of combustion engines. Here in Colorado that's a big deal to mountain homes and preppers alike. Imagine installing a single, clean and quiet battery that can save you money when no emergency presents itself and continues whirring along silently when an emergency does present itself w/o missing a bit to your home electronics. To me that is the future of Tesla once the car market gets more competitive... and competition is coming.
Indeed it is, which tells us such cars are here to stay and electric cars as toys of the wealthy likely false. Most new tech is a toy for the wealthy until it's not. Tesla is thinking ahead, well ahead, and is well beyond the curve to other companies on a number of fronts. Far enough to stay ahead of the new rivals? I sure hope so.
Electric cars are coming. Apple is building one. If history is any indicator, that's all it will take. It will be interesting. Apple usually defines the engineering and the market. It will be interesting to see how they do playing catch-up.
.
Electric cars are coming. Apple is building one. If history is any indicator, that's all it will take.
"But but but, Apple is on its last legs" says every expert analyst after Apple launches a new product only to be proven wrong. The Apple watch was promised to be a total flop. Sales have exceeded even Apples expectations. The 6 series of phones have become a monster that has dumped all competitiors on their head, and (wait for it) experts are saying the new models coming out are not grand enough changes to make a difference....When will they learn?
Indeed it is, which tells us such cars are here to stay and electric cars as toys of the wealthy likely false. Most new tech is a toy for the wealthy until it's not.
You'd be amazed at how many Nissan Leaf drivers would argue with the toy for the wealthy idea.
We are on our 2nd. It just works well as a car in its own right. It covers probably 90%+ of our daily travels. We shifted over 15k miles per year off our diesels and gasers. At a fraction of the cost to operate. (Really no mtc on electric Nissans in a 2 yr lease other than tire rotation) My total cost to drive the Leaf for 30k mikes was $.13/ mile. I could not even buy fuel for my next cheapest vehicle, much less account for mtc, depreciation, tires, etc.
Our charging is done at night when our state has excess capacity. Specifically, the state "baseload" minimum generation (nuke & hydro) is more than demand and what can be sold to bother states.
Not trying to convince you to lease one, just understand that world is significantly different than most believe. Between the crazy epa requirements for diesels and the anti press on electrics, I'm starting to believe some of the car/oil conspiracy theories. There is no valid reason for our epa to measure diesels the way they do unless you want to discourage use. Nowhere else in the world does it that way, even European countries.
You'd be amazed at how many Nissan Leaf drivers would argue with the toy for the wealthy idea.
We are on our 2nd. It just works well as a car in its own right. It covers probably 90%+ of our daily travels. We shifted over 15k miles per year off our diesels and gasers. At a fraction of the cost to operate. (Really no mtc on electric Nissans in a 2 yr lease other than tire rotation) My total cost to drive the Leaf for 30k mikes was $.13/ mile. I could not even buy fuel for my next cheapest vehicle, much less account for mtc, depreciation, tires, etc.
Our charging is done at night when our state has excess capacity. Specifically, the state "baseload" minimum generation (nuke & hydro) is more than demand and what can be sold to bother states.
Not trying to convince you to lease one, just understand that world is significantly different than most believe. Between the crazy epa requirements for diesels and the anti press on electrics, I'm starting to believe some of the car/oil conspiracy theories. There is no valid reason for our epa to measure diesels the way they do unless you want to discourage use. Nowhere else in the world does it that way, even European countries.
If you examine my comment(s) closely, you'll see I'm arguing such vehicle are clearly not just toys for the wealthy as others often maintain as reasons not to invest in the tech (as I did) or purchase one.
Moose-Knuckle
09-16-15, 13:09
Electric cars are coming. Apple is building one. If history is any indicator, that's all it will take. It will be interesting. Apple usually defines the engineering and the market. It will be interesting to see how they do playing catch-up.
.
Too bad they are not working on phased energy weapons . . .
"But but but, Apple is on its last legs" says every expert analyst after Apple launches a new product only to be proven wrong. The Apple watch was promised to be a total flop. Sales have exceeded even Apples expectations. The 6 series of phones have become a monster that has dumped all competitiors on their head, and (wait for it) experts are saying the new models coming out are not grand enough changes to make a difference....When will they learn?
They won't learn.
Too bad they are not working on phased energy weapons . . .
That you know of.....
Moose-Knuckle
09-16-15, 13:32
That you know of.....
They probably have a space in DARPA's Bat Cave.
They probably have a space in DARPA's Bat Cave.
Heh. They might own DARPA's Bat Cave.
".."Apple has the resources—including enough profit generated every 12 months to buy BMW AG for cash on the barrel.."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/what-to-expect-when-youre-expecting-an-apple-car-1440993713
You'd be amazed at how many Nissan Leaf drivers would argue with the toy for the wealthy idea.
We are on our 2nd. It just works well as a car in its own right. It covers probably 90%+ of our daily travels. We shifted over 15k miles per year off our diesels and gasers. At a fraction of the cost to operate. (Really no mtc on electric Nissans in a 2 yr lease other than tire rotation) My total cost to drive the Leaf for 30k mikes was $.13/ mile. I could not even buy fuel for my next cheapest vehicle, much less account for mtc, depreciation, tires, etc.
Our charging is done at night when our state has excess capacity. Specifically, the state "baseload" minimum generation (nuke & hydro) is more than demand and what can be sold to bother states.
Not trying to convince you to lease one, just understand that world is significantly different than most believe. Between the crazy epa requirements for diesels and the anti press on electrics, I'm starting to believe some of the car/oil conspiracy theories. There is no valid reason for our epa to measure diesels the way they do unless you want to discourage use. Nowhere else in the world does it that way, even European countries.
If you don't mind me asking publicly (because 1) others may want to know and 2) the PM capacity on this forum is absurd so mine stays full) how much is your monthly lease payment on a 2yr lease of a Leaf? I assume you don't put any money down and take the standard mileage allowance?
If you don't mind me asking publicly (because 1) others may want to know and 2) the PM capacity on this forum is absurd so mine stays full) how much is your monthly lease payment on a 2yr lease of a Leaf? I assume you don't put any money down and take the standard mileage allowance?
I'd add a vote for the Ford hybrid c max. My GF has one and I'm frankly blown away by how nice a vehicle that is. It's not your cramped ugly toyota prius I tell you. Get's crazy good mileage. My understanding is the fully electric version exists in Europe and coming to US soon if not already here.
I'd add a vote for the Ford hybrid c max. My GF has one and I'm frankly blown away by how nice a vehicle that is. It's not your cramped ugly toyota prius I tell you. Get's crazy good mileage. My understanding is the fully electric version exists in Europe and coming to US soon if not already here.
I'm not opposed to a Ford offering either it just needs to be cheap and plug-in with decent range. If they don't have the full plug-in version here yet then it likely wouldn't make the final cut for our needs.
I currently own a few vehicles and one of which was my mom's 2005 Hyundai Accent w/85k miles on it. I did the wrenching on it since she bought it new so I know the history and it needs nothing at all. Paid off and 30mpg on regular unleaded no matter how I drive it. I'm tempted to see how the #'s break down on selling it outright or trading it in for the cap cost buy-down on a short-term lease of a plug in car. If I can get the #'s to come out ahead of what I pay now for petrol and hard parts for service I may have to head down this path.
Wouldn't be the first hybrid we've owned and I have nothing negative to say about them. A plug-in would be the next evolution for us and would negate the need for pump visits which is where the savings would come in.
I'm not opposed to a Ford offering either it just needs to be cheap and plug-in with decent range. If they don't have the full plug-in version here yet then it likely wouldn't make the final cut for our needs.
I currently own a few vehicles and one of which was my mom's 2005 Hyundai Accent w/85k miles on it. I did the wrenching on it since she bought it new so I know the history and it needs nothing at all. Paid off and 30mpg on regular unleaded no matter how I drive it. I'm tempted to see how the #'s break down on selling it outright or trading it in for the cap cost buy-down on a short-term lease of a plug in car. If I can get the #'s to come out ahead of what I pay now for petrol and hard parts for service I may have to head down this path.
Wouldn't be the first hybrid we've owned and I have nothing negative to say about them. A plug-in would be the next evolution for us and would negate the need for pump visits which is where the savings would come in.
I'm not sure what the status is on that, but they are either here now or soon to be as I understand it.
If you examine my comment(s) closely, you'll see I'm arguing such vehicle are clearly not just toys for the wealthy as others often maintain as reasons not to invest in the tech (as I did) or purchase one.
Apologies, I should not have quoted. Was speaking to the general idea, which is a very common theme.
Apologies, I should not have quoted. Was speaking to the general idea, which is a very common theme.
Agreed! It's time for many to finally pull their head out of the sand on that one me thinks.
If you don't mind me asking publicly (because 1) others may want to know and 2) the PM capacity on this forum is absurd so mine stays full) how much is your monthly lease payment on a 2yr lease of a Leaf? I assume you don't put any money down and take the standard mileage allowance?
Nicely optioned (SV with quick chg and led headlight pkg) $299 with 24k miles. $318 with 30k miles. Minimum (1st pmt) down. Did have VPP discount.
You can get the base models $200-249'ish. This is based on dealer keeping the federal rebate. Our state had an additional $5000 tax credit which made it a no-brainer as $208 is covered by the tax credit. State tax break is now gone, so its more of a break even situation.
I consistently get 85-90 miles of city driving with A/C or heat, occasional headlight usage. So covers 90-95% of our routine driving. Couple of pennies per mile to charge.
Next year's models will be in the 115-120 mile range. Our view now with 35-40k miles of electric experience is that when they achieve 200 mile range it will be the tipping point as most could get by without a 2nd car.
Comment from bro-in-law after driving it was what surprised him was that it drove nicer than their Honda CRV. Similar room, nicer features. IE: they are compromises only in the range. Most electrics will out accelerate their 30+ mpg counterparts, etc.
FlyingHunter
09-16-15, 19:53
"But but but, Apple is on its last legs" says every expert analyst
Last time I heard that it inspired me and I bought a serious amount of stock in AAPL @ $70. I enjoyed selling it at $110 a while back. I'm typing this on a Mac with my iPhone nearby...fanboy? Nope. Their products just work exceptionally well for me.
Back to cars...Will mentioned the new electric Porsche Mission E prototype in the opening post for this thread. Stunning visually.
http://www.wired.com/2015/09/porsche-takes-aim-tesla-stunning-electric-concept/
Nicely optioned (SV with quick chg and led headlight pkg) $299 with 24k miles. $318 with 30k miles. Minimum (1st pmt) down. Did have VPP discount.
You can get the base models $200-249'ish. This is based on dealer keeping the federal rebate. Our state had an additional $5000 tax credit which made it a no-brainer as $208 is covered by the tax credit. State tax break is now gone, so its more of a break even situation.
I consistently get 85-90 miles of city driving with A/C or heat, occasional headlight usage. So covers 90-95% of our routine driving. Couple of pennies per mile to charge.
Next year's models will be in the 115-120 mile range. Our view now with 35-40k miles of electric experience is that when they achieve 200 mile range it will be the tipping point as most could get by without a 2nd car.
Comment from bro-in-law after driving it was what surprised him was that it drove nicer than their Honda CRV. Similar room, nicer features. IE: they are compromises only in the range. Most electrics will out accelerate their 30+ mpg counterparts, etc.
So after a $5k credit you were paying $49/mo for a 2yr lease? I just checked & for plug-in cars there's a $7,500 federal tax credit & a $5k tax credit from the state of Colorado. Things are looking very interesting as far as the trading option goes.
Auto news
Volkswagen could face $18 billion penalties from EPA
Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) could face penalties up to $18 billion after being accused of designing software for diesel cars that deceives regulators measuring toxic emissions, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said on Friday.
"Put simply, these cars contained software that turns off emissions controls when driving normally and turns them on when the car is undergoing an emissions test," Cynthia Giles, an enforcement officer at the EPA, told reporters in a teleconference.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0RI1VK20150918
I thought I read that Tesla was building a 30k dollar car to compete with the BMW 3 and Audi A4.
I hate the EPA when it comes to diesel engines. Their BS emissions requirments are why we don't have more diesels in the US. It is a better fuel, requires less refining and burns cleaner than gas.
A Subaru rep told me once the reason we don't have their awesome boxer diesels is because of the over-regulation of diesels. They make it almost impossible for a company to bring them in.
I don't blame VW one bit for trying to cheat the system.
I thought I read that Tesla was building a 30k dollar car to compete with the BMW 3 and Audi A4.
I bet it comes in a tad more, but yes, an more affordable car projected for a year or two. They are launching this bad boy shortly first:
http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx
http://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-speeds-up-electric-car-work-1442857105
Wall Street Journal
Apple Inc. is accelerating efforts to build an electric car, designating it internally as a “committed project” and setting a target ship date for 2019, according to people familiar with the matter.
The go-ahead came after the company spent more than a year investigating the feasibility of an Apple-branded car, including meetings with two groups of government officials in California. Leaders of the project, code-named Titan , have been given permission to triple the 600-person team, the people familiar with the matter said.
Auto news
Volkswagen could face $18 billion penalties from EPA
Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) could face penalties up to $18 billion after being accused of designing software for diesel cars that deceives regulators measuring toxic emissions, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said on Friday.
"Put simply, these cars contained software that turns off emissions controls when driving normally and turns them on when the car is undergoing an emissions test," Cynthia Giles, an enforcement officer at the EPA, told reporters in a teleconference.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0RI1VK20150918
As this evolves, it appears to have the capacity to literally destroy the company...VW, Porsche, and Audi. They lost about 30% of the company's value in stock price declines in just two days. The recall is estimated around $8 billion, doesn't take into account fines from a variety of countries, nor the inevitable class action lawsuits. What a disaster.
As this evolves, it appears to have the capacity to literally destroy the company...VW, Porsche, and Audi. They lost about 30% of the company's value in stock price declines in just two days. The recall is estimated around $8 billion, doesn't take into account fines from a variety of countries, nor the inevitable class action lawsuits. What a disaster.
Of their own making*
* = If the accusations are true. I have a difficult time believing upper level management would knowingly put the company at that level of risk and specifically add the tech to avoid US standards, but I guess that will come out in the wash.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-speeds-up-electric-car-work-1442857105
Tesla purchases their batteries from Panasonic. They are currently building a huge battery factory developing their own batteries which they claim will be superior and USA made. It would not surprise me in the least if Apple didn't end up purchasing their batteries from Tesla.
brickboy240
09-22-15, 10:26
One huge problem with the electric cars is their appearance. (come on....most of these cars look silly)
Sorry, but that Leaf looks totally silly. It is also tiny inside and has limited range. Not a contender when you live in the 4th largest city in America...sorry. It might suit those with no kids and those that live very close to work or those that do not commute. Still too much of a niche vehicle if you ask me.
The Tesla is way too expensive for most people and around here, it is a rich mans toy or status symbol. A Forbes article also stated that the average annual salary of a Volt buyer is 175k so is it far off to say this is a rich man's toy? I don't think so. I don't see many of these on the roads here and they start at around 40 grand.
Once the electric car gets down to the 25-30k dollar range and ups it's range to maybe 250-300 miles per overnight charge...THEN it will be a contender.
Still..in the end...car choice is all about your needs and lifestyle. I cannot do what we do in a Pruis or Leaf. YMMV.
One huge problem with the electric cars is their appearance. (come on....most of these cars look silly)
Sorry, but that Leaf looks totally silly. It is also tiny inside and has limited range. Not a contender when you live in the 4th largest city in America...sorry. It might suit those with no kids and those that live very close to work or those that do not commute. Still too much of a niche vehicle if you ask me.
The Tesla is way too expensive for most people and around here, it is a rich mans toy or status symbol. A Forbes article also stated that the average annual salary of a Volt buyer is 175k so is it far off to say this is a rich man's toy? I don't think so. I don't see many of these on the roads here and they start at around 40 grand.
Once the electric car gets down to the 25-30k dollar range and ups it's range to maybe 250-300 miles per overnight charge...THEN it will be a contender.
Still..in the end...car choice is all about your needs and lifestyle. I cannot do what we do in a Pruis or Leaf. YMMV.
This is why they're not an 'only vehicle' option for most people. If you drive out-of-state then you'll want something else. For lots of people it will fit 99% of their needs though and mean they never need to buy a drop of petroleum based gasoline. That's the point. It's not meant to go 250-300 miles which for most is a week or two of driving. It's meant to get you through your day and recharge overnight. I mean, your post is a lot like saying that a Diesel GMC 3500 should be small enough to fit in your tiny 1 car garage therefore it's a failure by GM. It's meant to do a task and it does said task quite well. If you don't have the need to perform that task then it's not for you. Same with a Leaf. If it's not for you then it's not for you. That doesn't mean it's not a great option for someone else. Look how many Prius Toyota sold. Obviously there's a market for those who don't care what their car looks like as much as how good of fuel economy it gets. The Leaf is just the next level of that. For me, it would replace one of our cars (2005 Hyundai Accent 4dr) which isn't a stunning looker anyway. If I can fit in that I can fit in a Leaf just fine. If I fit in both then most Americans would too and far too many Americans over estimate how big they actually are.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-22-15, 10:55
One huge problem with the electric cars is their appearance. (come on....most of these cars look silly).
They look silly so that everyone knows that you are a caring, skinny jeans wearing, ECO warrior. The electric Camry sold poorly because you just looked like a mid level IT puke, not someone saving the planet.
brickboy240
09-22-15, 11:06
But a Prius costs about 40 grand. You can buy a 4cyl Corolla for at least 10 grand less. It would take you much longer to see a savings from buying a Prius over buying a gas powered Corolla...even if gas ran over 3 bucks a gallon. You'd probably have to put over 100k miles on the Prius to see savings vs. buying the 20k dollar gas Corolla.
Also, how much better for the environment is it...really...to buy a new Prius versus buying a used car that gets 25-30mpg? When you consider the energy it took to build the Prius versus buying a car was made years ago and keeping it out of the landfill.
But a Prius costs about 40 grand. You can buy a 4cyl Corolla for at least 10 grand less. It would take you much longer to see a savings from buying a Prius over buying a gas powered Corolla...even if gas ran over 3 bucks a gallon. You'd probably have to put over 100k miles on the Prius to see savings vs. buying the 20k dollar gas Corolla.
Also, how much better for the environment is it...really...to buy a new Prius versus buying a used car that gets 25-30mpg? When you consider the energy it took to build the Prius versus buying a car was made years ago and keeping it out of the landfill.
$40 grand for a Prius!?! ROFL What dealership are you shopping at so I can get a job in sales? They start at $24k. So you're talking $4k or so difference in an apples to apples comparison. You also compare a brand new vehicle to buying a used Carolla... not an apples to apples comparison. There are used Prius out there too if used is what you want.
BTW, we're not talking about a hybrid compared to a gasser. We're talking plug-in cars that are 100% electric which IS better for the environment if that's what's important to you. For me, it's the pennies per mile in total cost that is a draw to something like a Leaf. Even if gas prices stay low or get even lower that's REAL savings every time you start up your car and drive to town or work or wherever you drive your car 80-90% of the time.
brickboy240
09-22-15, 11:33
Gas prices are NOT going to stay this low. The Saudis and Russians cannot keep this up forever.
Gas prices are NOT going to stay this low. The Saudis and Russians cannot keep this up forever.
That's the point I made that you want to debate? I wasn't saying they would, I was saying that even if they do (not likely) then the plug-in is WAY cheaper. What you said only helps my stance that a plug-in vehicle is the right move for 80-90% of what people use their cars for. The higher gas prices go the more economically viable a plug-in car is.
When gas hit $5 a gallon in 2008, I went to Toyota and asked for the cheapest car they had. I got a new 2008 Corolla (base model) for 11,995. The cheapest Prius was exactly 2x the cost. Then a Prius could get 45 mpg. I got a steady 40 in the Corolla. 2 years and 45,000 miles later, I was hit in freeway traffic and the Corolla was totaled. The insurance company gave me $14k.... do the math.
I am now driving a 2013 MB E350 bluetec diesel. I love this car. I get a solid 35 mpg day in and day out on my 90 mile a day commute. This is a v-6 diesel.
brickboy240
09-22-15, 11:51
Yes, the all electric car is cheaper for many people...but not everyone. Especially if you have a long commute or travel out of town often.
At today's gas prices, if you have a well running car that gets 24mpg or better and it is paid for...it might make better sense to keep it and pay for gas versus financing a new all electric car.
Again...everyone's situation is different. I cannot pull my goose neck trailer or haul my ATV with any of those things so I don't even look into owning one. YMMV.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-22-15, 13:16
Gas prices are NOT going to stay this low. The Saudis and Russians cannot keep this up forever.
There are a lot of economists that say that when the Saudis tank oil prices, they do it for an extended period of time, like a decade or more before we get back to $100/barrel. There is only upside to them on cheap oil. Sure they take home less, but with the low cost of production, they can still survive- but their geopolitical adversaries- Iran and Russia- and to a lesser extent us- can't. They'll dry it out till people lose the capabilities and then they'll slowly start to restrict supply and raise prices. They have played a long game. Of course, things change- but this is the playbook.
If and when oil gets back to $100/barrel, the Bakken will start right back up where they left off and we'll be right back where we started.
As to electric cars. I'd buy one if it was a performer. I want a car that's fun to drive...basic transportation doesn't really interest me.
FlyingHunter
09-22-15, 18:25
I want a car that's fun to drive...basic transportation doesn't really interest me.
So...what exactly is that car in your avatar pic? 370Z?
If and when oil gets back to $100/barrel, the Bakken will start right back up where they left off and we'll be right back where we started.
As to electric cars. I'd buy one if it was a performer. I want a car that's fun to drive...basic transportation doesn't really interest me.
Dude, the fastest sedan known to mankind that rivals the performance of any super car is electric. I know a guy in FL who has actually gotten a 2.8 0-60 from his:
2015 Tesla Model S P85D (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-first-drive-review)
Same guy owns a large collection of super cars, and he says the only thing that can rival it is his Mclaren. It will make all but the upper level super cars look slow at 691-hp and other sedans? An M5 wouldn't keep up.
It aint cheap, but when you compare performance anything else, and the fact it's a sedan that rides as well as any car on the planet, it's a f-ing steal.
Next up? Model SS powered by two 470-hp motors and at that point, nothing will touch that. Lights out and no amount of $$$ will rival it and be street legal.
So...what exactly is that car in your avatar pic? 370Z?
Yeah. It's fun to drive. Stops being fun with the first snowflake. Then the truck becomes more fun to drive.
Dude, the fastest sedan known to mankind that rivals the performance of any super car is electric. I know a guy in FL who has actually gotten a 2.8 0-60 from his:
2015 Tesla Model S P85D (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-first-drive-review)
Same guy owns a large collection of super cars, and he says the only thing that can rival it is his Mclaren. It will make all but the upper level super cars look slow at 691-hp and other sedans? An M5 wouldn't keep up.
It aint cheap, but when you compare performance anything else, and the fact it's a sedan that rides as well as any car on the planet, it's a f-ing steal.
Next up? Model SS powered by two 470-hp motors and at that point, nothing will touch that. Lights out and no amount of $$$ will rival it and be street legal.
A rich white guy in my AO has a P85D. Sometimes I'll see him gun it to get on the interstate. I've never seen anything like it. It's as if he's in an F-16.
They look silly so that everyone knows that you are a caring, skinny jeans wearing, ECO warrior.
Can't speak to the others, but the Leaf looks like it does for very specific reasons. Example: The odd headlight shape diverts air from high pressure points on the side mirrors, which are a major source of drag.
You can make all the negative stereotypes assumption you want...
The difference in Total cost of ownership calculated the same way on my Leaf and my Cummins 1 ton 4x4 quad cab puts saves me about $400 per mth, as I have a 70 mile round trip commute lately.
The Leaf is an appliance. It's a decent commute vehicle, easily carries my crew of five out to eat. It's actually quicker than other cars getting better than 40 mpg, and most in the 30s. electric has instant torque.
So jokes about man card are wasted. My Cummins gets better hwy mpg *towing a Tacoma* than Tacoma does driving itself. (Or flat towing my Pinzgauer)
I'll be happy to compare fleets for manliness! ☺ I drive the Leaf because its handy, makes financial sense, and I don't mind that it pollutes less than gassers.
Dude, the fastest sedan known to mankind that rivals the performance of any super car is electric. I know a guy in FL who has actually gotten a 2.8 0-60 from his:
Dude, I'm aware;)
BIL has one. It's a nice car. I'm lookin' at it.
TacticalSledgehammer
09-22-15, 23:03
Can't speak to the others, but the Leaf looks like it does for very specific reasons. Example: The odd headlight shape diverts air from high pressure points on the side mirrors, which are a major source of drag.
You can make all the negative stereotypes assumption you want...
The difference in Total cost of ownership calculated the same way on my Leaf and my Cummins 1 ton 4x4 quad cab puts saves me about $400 per mth, as I have a 70 mile round trip commute lately.
The Leaf is an appliance. It's a decent commute vehicle, easily carries my crew of five out to eat. It's actually quicker than other cars getting better than 40 mpg, and most in the 30s. electric has instant torque.
So jokes about man card are wasted. My Cummins gets better hwy mpg *towing a Tacoma* than Tacoma does driving itself. (Or flat towing my Pinzgauer)
I'll be happy to compare fleets for manliness! ☺ I drive the Leaf because its handy, makes financial sense, and I don't mind that it pollutes less than gassers.
You can't beat a Cummins. I had an 05 5.9 common rail and got a '13 f250. I sure miss the motor. These f-250s drive better, but are made of paper. A shopping cart at home depot damn near totalled it.
More on topic, tesla is leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. They made electric cars desirable to every red blooded american, unlike the other electric hippy cars on the market. I doubt BMW will be able to even keep up.
Dude, I'm aware;)
BIL has one. It's a nice car. I'm lookin' at it.
Stop lookin' start buyin' :dirol:
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-23-15, 07:55
Can't speak to the others, but the Leaf looks like it does for very specific reasons. Example: The odd headlight shape diverts air from high pressure points on the side mirrors, which are a major source of drag.
You can make all the negative stereotypes assumption you want...
The difference in Total cost of ownership calculated the same way on my Leaf and my Cummins 1 ton 4x4 quad cab puts saves me about $400 per mth, as I have a 70 mile round trip commute lately.
The Leaf is an appliance. It's a decent commute vehicle, easily carries my crew of five out to eat. It's actually quicker than other cars getting better than 40 mpg, and most in the 30s. electric has instant torque.
So jokes about man card are wasted. My Cummins gets better hwy mpg *towing a Tacoma* than Tacoma does driving itself. (Or flat towing my Pinzgauer)
I'll be happy to compare fleets for manliness! ☺ I drive the Leaf because its handy, makes financial sense, and I don't mind that it pollutes less than gassers.
You've got it backwards- the eco-warrior, skinny jeans punks don't want to drive an electric that looks like a regular car. Why do you think that they were called the Toyota "Pius"? I'm not saying that driving one makes you an eco-warrior, skinny jeans wearer- though it does make you suspect ;)
If the shape is so efficient, why don't other cars use it? Mad aerodynamic features on cars that really aren't made for highway driving and most probably spend their time on secondary roads..
Frankly, I think a diesel-electric is the ticket. If it is good enough for a BNSF train, it should have enough power for the rest of us.... Plus, if Porsche makes one, I can actually be a u-boat commander without dumping it in a lake....
The backassward US emission laws for diesels pretty much kill efficiency. So diesel hybrids are a nonstarter. Plus Japan does not really understand or like diesels.
On the electrics, I was pretty much the last person you'd expect to go that route. But you'll find in my state that 90% of the electrics are not eco-warriors. They tend to be the Prius or suburu types.
Meanwhile a friend routinely break 40 mpg in his old man Altima with lower cost, more room, and a normal car format.
People who keep talking about gutless 4cyl being just as efficient as a hybrid or an electric car need to actually drive one because it's obvious they haven't. Sure, you can get nearly the same mpg in a hybrid but that's not the point of a hybrid. Think of getting the fuel economy of a 4cyl with the fun-to-drive and acceleration of the larger V6 engine. That's basically what they do. We had a V8 Audi and traded it for a Camry Hybrid when they first came out. I was amazed how we got nearly TRIPLE the mpg out of the Camry Hybrid and drove it no different than the Audi plus it was every bit as fast from zero to highway speed thanks to the electric motor coupled with the 4cyl and the CVT keeping you in the power band the entire time. Sure my 2005 Hyundai Accent gets about 30mpg or about the same as the Camry Hybrid but it's much smaller and WAY slower to attain that. People who claim that you can get the same mpg from a small 4cyl and then in the same breath say that Hybrids take all the fun out of driving crack me up. Contradict much?
This thread isn't about Hybrids though and we're mostly talking plug-ins which is an entirely different beast. We're talking NO mpg because there is no gas used. Ever. They don't even have petroleum based power plants onboard. Just batteries & electric motors. Think of being able to commute to work and put all around town running your errands without ever needing to stop at a gas station or paying for tank of gas. That's a pretty awesome idea. Most would save some serious money from that aspect alone not to mention the time savings waiting in line at the pump or going to the gas station. Now couple that with the fact that the .gov wants to kick in another $12,500 (or more in some states) towards the purchase of said vehicle which is already competitively priced with a comparable gasser and you have some pretty strong reasons to seriously consider it. If you let your pride based on inaccurate prejudices get in the way of a financial gain then you're just being silly and nobody is impressed.
brickboy240
09-23-15, 09:57
Ok many here will handily blast those that take "govt handouts" but will buy an all electric car and happily take the subsidy or tax break?
What is the real difference?
Sorry...but the govt should not be in the business of giving anyone a subsidy.
People who keep talking about gutless 4cyl being just as efficient as a hybrid or an electric car need to actually drive one because it's obvious they haven't. Sure, you can get nearly the same mpg in a hybrid but that's not the point of a hybrid. Think of getting the fuel economy of a 4cyl with the fun-to-drive and acceleration of the larger V6 engine. That's basically what they do. We had a V8 Audi and traded it for a Camry Hybrid when they first came out. I was amazed how we got nearly TRIPLE the mpg out of the Camry Hybrid and drove it no different than the Audi plus it was every bit as fast from zero to highway speed thanks to the electric motor coupled with the 4cyl and the CVT keeping you in the power band the entire time. Sure my 2005 Hyundai Accent gets about 30mpg or about the same as the Camry Hybrid but it's much smaller and WAY slower to attain that. People who claim that you can get the same mpg from a small 4cyl and then in the same breath say that Hybrids take all the fun out of driving crack me up. Contradict much?
This thread isn't about Hybrids though and we're mostly talking plug-ins which is an entirely different beast. We're talking NO mpg because there is no gas used. Ever. They don't even have petroleum based power plants onboard. Just batteries & electric motors. Think of being able to commute to work and put all around town running your errands without ever needing to stop at a gas station or paying for tank of gas. That's a pretty awesome idea. Most would save some serious money from that aspect alone not to mention the time savings waiting in line at the pump or going to the gas station. Now couple that with the fact that the .gov wants to kick in another $12,500 (or more in some states) towards the purchase of said vehicle which is already competitively priced with a comparable gasser and you have some pretty strong reasons to seriously consider it. If you let your pride based on inaccurate prejudices get in the way of a financial gain then you're just being silly and nobody is impressed.
Not sure which 4 cyl to which hybrid people are comparing, but the Ford C Max the GF has gets far better gas mileage than any 4cyl I have owned, and as you say, drives more like a small 6 cyl than a super efficient 4 cyl. I'd encourage anyone to take a C Max for a drive if not for sh&%s and giggles to experience that hybrid. The ride, interior, etc is not your hippie skinny jean hybrid.
Stop lookin' start buyin' :dirol:
Concerns:
one showroom in the state
one service center in this state - two hours away
lack of regional superchargers
performance in Minnesota winters
not a huge fan of sedans
would have to sacrifice some handling performance - would rather have handling over acceleration/top speed
cost, especially when adding in cost of handling package and powerwall
Concerns:
one showroom in the state
one service center in this state - two hours away
lack of regional superchargers
performance in Minnesota winters
not a huge fan of sedans
would have to sacrifice some handling performance - would rather have handling over acceleration/top speed
cost, especially when adding in cost of handling package and powerwall
Well, you did specify you'd be interested in electric if the performance was there. Now yer gettin' all picky! To be serious, legit concerns I'd say. I sure couldn't put that type of $$$ in a car. I have some Tesla stock and Tesla jacket, and that's about as close as I'll be getting to owning one as all my equity is sunk into houses and such.
Ok many here will handily blast those that take "govt handouts" but will buy an all electric car and happily take the subsidy or tax break?
What is the real difference?
Sorry...but the govt should not be in the business of giving anyone a subsidy.
You should start new thread to discuss the legitimacy of government handouts and which ones are valid to you.
Not sure which 4 cyl to which hybrid people are comparing, but the Ford C Max the GF has gets far better gas mileage than any 4cyl I have owned, and as you say, drives more like a small 6 cyl than a super efficient 4 cyl. I'd encourage anyone to take a C Max for a drive if not for sh&%s and giggles to experience that hybrid. The ride, interior, etc is not your hippie skinny jean hybrid.
We would regularly take friends out to dinner & such in our car and they were always amazed by the performance and interior quality of a 'Hybrid' because at the time everyone thought that the Prius was how all Hyrbids had to be. It was roomy, comfortable and pretty much looked like any other Camry with nice leather interior and a cool nav screen and lighting. More and more hybrids are being made in this light and it's only a matter of time before the plug-in follow this same trajectory.
One thing to keep in mind that plug-in cars are not only aimed at ultra economy so their body size, weight & shape needs to echo that (including aerodynamics & such) but until battery/motor technology gets better it's a careful dance between economy, performance, size & price since one will affect the other three. On one hand you have Tesla making a car that is large, has gobs of performance but does so at a slight cost to economy and a HUGE cost financially. The other end of the spectrum is the Nissan Leaf which is smaller and lighter to take advantage of being able to wring as much economy out of the lowest cost possible to bring a low-dollar plug-in car to the masses. The industry needs both. As battery technology improves (the new Leaf will use Li-Ion battery packs for instance) and gets more efficient, lighter & cheaper we'll see this segment start to expand. Just like we needed Ni-MH batteries to come down in cost to have the previous generation hybrids which largely used those for their electric side.
If the battery industry comes up with a technology that holds more power in a smaller & lighter package at a lower production cost the hybrid and plug-in car industry will boom. Of course, that's the big tech that's holding a LOT of industries back at the moment so it's not likely to happen anytime soon but small advancements are happening.
We would regularly take friends out to dinner & such in our car and they were always amazed by the performance and interior quality of a 'Hybrid' because at the time everyone thought that the Prius was how all Hyrbids had to be. It was roomy, comfortable and pretty much looked like any other Camry with nice leather interior and a cool nav screen and lighting. More and more hybrids are being made in this light and it's only a matter of time before the plug-in follow this same trajectory.
One thing to keep in mind that plug-in cars are not only aimed at ultra economy so their body size, weight & shape needs to echo that (including aerodynamics & such) but until battery/motor technology gets better it's a careful dance between economy, performance, size & price since one will affect the other three. On one hand you have Tesla making a car that is large, has gobs of performance but does so at a slight cost to economy and a HUGE cost financially. The other end of the spectrum is the Nissan Leaf which is smaller and lighter to take advantage of being able to wring as much economy out of the lowest cost possible to bring a low-dollar plug-in car to the masses. The industry needs both. As battery technology improves (the new Leaf will use Li-Ion battery packs for instance) and gets more efficient, lighter & cheaper we'll see this segment start to expand. Just like we needed Ni-MH batteries to come down in cost to have the previous generation hybrids which largely used those for their electric side.
If the battery industry comes up with a technology that holds more power in a smaller & lighter package at a lower production cost the hybrid and plug-in car industry will boom. Of course, that's the big tech that's holding a LOT of industries back at the moment so it's not likely to happen anytime soon but small advancements are happening.
The major barrier as I understand it comes down to three things: batteries, batteries, and batteries.
The motor tech is extremely efficient on the electric side and very robust. The motor side may make a few incremental improvements, but they have squeezed that tech about as far as it will go.
When costs, weight, and energy storage capacity of batteries improves, that's the real game changer in the equation. It's happening as we speak as Tesla builds a huge plant and their R&D is the leading edge.
Me, I love their approach. Make an econo box to compete with other tiny ugly econo boxes? F&% that, they went the opposite direction and put out a high end sedan that does not just rival what you can get from BMW, Merc, etc, it blows them away in every category and change the way cars are sold at same time putting both manufactures and retails sellers on notice.
Start at the top, show electric can compete on all fronts if you don't hold back, work your way down to more affordable options.
That's an approach and philosophy I can get behind and did.
The major barrier as I understand it comes down to three things: batteries, batteries, and batteries.
The motor tech is extremely efficient on the electric side and very robust. The motor side may make a few incremental improvements, but they have squeezed that tech about as far as it will go.
When costs, weight, and energy storage capacity of batteries improves, that's the real game changer in the equation. It's happening as we speak as Tesla builds a huge plant and their R&D is the leading edge.
Me, I love their approach. Make an econo box to compete with other tiny ugly econo boxes? F&% that, they went the opposite direction and put out a high end sedan that does not just rival what you can get from BMW, Merc, etc, it blows them away in every category and change the way cars are sold at same time putting both manufactures and retails sellers on notice.
Start at the top, show electric can compete on all fronts if you don't hold back, work your way down to more affordable options.
That's an approach and philosophy I can get behind and did.
Well, you sort of got behind them. You bought stock. Nobody sees you driving their stock around. What they need is more owners and at six figures for an automobile is more than most are willing to spend. This is where the bottom up approach has worked amazingly well in the auto segment for manufacturers like Honda and Toyota. Remember the clunker econo-boxes they built & imported in the 80's? Most quickly forget when seeing new offerings from manufacturers like Kia and Hyundai that most all start at the bottom and work their way up using what they learn. Tesla has an interesting approach and if they produce something a little less rocket ship at less than half the price to bring the majority of the potential buyers into the fray I think they will have something. They need to get the working man behind them as elitism will only take you so far until the newness wears off and they move onto the next big craze. They need to take what they learned and make a Leaf or at least a Camry hybrid competitor. Much like the bottom up approach I think they need to make a midsize sedan in the $40-$50k market and then up next should be something in the $25-$30k range. Once they expand their lineup I think we'll see people take Tesla more seriously as you can see from this thread most still don't see plug-in as a viable technology for automobiles.
Well, you did specify you'd be interested in electric if the performance was there. Now yer gettin' all picky! To be serious, legit concerns I'd say. I sure couldn't put that type of $$$ in a car. I have some Tesla stock and Tesla jacket, and that's about as close as I'll be getting to owning one as all my equity is sunk into houses and such.
I am serious, but I'm not convinced that anything in the current offerings even matches the performance I already have, let alone exceed it enough to make it into something I'd want to drive at two or three times the cost.
Well, you sort of got behind them. You bought stock. Nobody sees you driving their stock around. What they need is more owners and at six figures for an automobile is more than most are willing to spend.
There's a back order for them and we don't see other high end brands unable to find a market generally, so it seems they are positioned as they intended. It's not a car for masses anymore than who they compete with. I couldn't personally justify the expense no.
This is where the bottom up approach has worked amazingly well in the auto segment for manufacturers like Honda and Toyota. Remember the clunker econo-boxes they built & imported in the 80's? Most quickly forget when seeing new offerings from manufacturers like Kia and Hyundai that most all start at the bottom and work their way up using what they learn. Tesla has an interesting approach and if they produce something a little less rocket ship at less than half the price to bring the majority of the potential buyers into the fray I think they will have something. They need to get the working man behind them as elitism will only take you so far until the newness wears off and they move onto the next big craze. They need to take what they learned and make a Leaf or at least a Camry hybrid competitor. Much like the bottom up approach I think they need to make a midsize sedan in the $40-$50k market and then up next should be something in the $25-$30k range. Once they expand their lineup I think we'll see people take Tesla more seriously as you can see from this thread most still don't see plug-in as a viable technology for automobiles.
The more affordable model is already designed etc and will be out in the near future, but I think their top down approach was genius. Two, few realize how much effort Tesla has put into charging stations and other essential infrastructure to be seen is a viable alternative. The company's long term vision is what impressed me most. They're not reacting to the market as much as creating it.
I am serious, but I'm not convinced that anything in the current offerings even matches the performance I already have, let alone exceed it enough to make it into something I'd want to drive at two or three times the cost.
Have you taken one for a spin? I got a test drive as a stock holder, and OMG. I'm not a performance car expert, but as mentioned my wealthy buddy with a extensive exotic car collection says he's just blown away by the performance, especially from a sedan. Do you drive something now that will do sub 3 second 0-60? I know that's not the only metric of performance, but I can't think of too many cars anywhere near that price range that can do that, and still be a nice car to drive on a daily basis.
Have you taken one for a spin? I got a test drive as a stock holder, and OMG. I'm not a performance car expert, but as mentioned my wealthy buddy with a extensive exotic car collection says he's just blown away by the performance, especially from a sedan. Do you drive something now that will do sub 3 second 0-60? I know that's not the only metric of performance, but I can't think of too many cars anywhere near that price range that can do that, and still be a nice car to drive on a daily basis.
I've driven my BILs Tesla S out in LA. It's not the current super-model, but it is indeed very quick on the accelerator. Very probably faster than my current car 0-60. That, however, isn't the performance that I'm mostly interested in. I was distressed by the amount of body roll on cornering and the sedan-like understeer (with front trunk unloaded). No question it does very well in an absolute sense. For a sedan. I couldn't unequivocally call it a performance car, though.
I've driven my BILs Tesla S out in LA. It's not the current super-model, but it is indeed very quick on the accelerator. Very probably faster than my current car 0-60. That, however, isn't the performance that I'm mostly interested in. I was distressed by the amount of body roll on cornering and the sedan-like understeer (with front trunk unloaded). No question it does very well in an absolute sense. For a sedan. I couldn't unequivocally call it a performance car, though.
There's a big jump in HP between the S and the newer car, but I'm not sure if/what changes have been made to suspension etc. I hope you take the latest for a drive and report back your thoughts. I'd say as a car one can actually drive daily vs performance pretty tough to beat, but to be sure in a pure performance scale with all other metrics added, there's better performance cars out there.
Me, as a second "fun" car, I want a Shelby Cobra reproduction.
Ok many here will handily blast those that take "govt handouts" but will buy an all electric car and happily take the subsidy or tax break?
What is the real difference?
Sorry...but the govt should not be in the business of giving anyone a subsidy.
Except when it's in the public good. Specifically, to get enough users (demand) that people will install/operate the required infrastructure (chargers).
When electric power first came out only the wealth had it. Then later big cities. It would not get enough users as there is a barrier to adoption... too expensive to install, won't get users. Don't get users, the cost to install does not drop. Enter Rural Electric. Unless you grew up in a large city, your grandparents only had electric power because of subsidies.
Same for phone service. Your parents probably got a landline because of govt subsidies via the Universal service acts.
In many aspects, you are reading this because the US govt largely subsidized development & operation of the internet, and in some aspects still does. If people actually had to pay for backbone traffic early on the internet would never have developed.
So the electric vehicle subsidies are an incentive to grow the user base until it reaches critical mass and economies of scale. GA killed theirs in a wrong headed move. And meanwhile, continues to lose Federal highway money due to pollution, etc.
It's needed on the car side due to battery expense. But they have already had the intended effect, battery tech is steadily improving. And still needed on the charger side.
But it won't be needed forever. And it's a big difference between a "handout" vs a reduced cost to get an item comparable to the gas equivalent. (which is what the federal subsidy does)
As expected, it's not cheap, but in the luxury segment, will set the standard as the sedan has:
Tesla’s Model X Is Here, and It’s as Awesome As We Hoped
The world’s first luxury electric SUV is gorgeous. It’s futuristic. And once again, Tesla Motors is redefining the electric vehicle.
The Silicon Valley automaker has teased us for years with the Model X, and tonight it finally gave the world its first look at the production model, then handed six customers the keys.
Those people now own a $130,000 electric vehicle that will go 250 miles on a charge, carry seven people and haul more stuff than anyone but a hoarder might want with him. And although the X shares much of its DNA with the impressive Model S P90D sedan, in many ways it eclipses that phenomenal car. It’s not just the design, which is futuristic without being weird. It’s not just the performance, which is holy shit fast. And it’s not even the dramatic “falcon” doors that lift like the wings of a bird.
It’s how all of those features come together in a vehicle that somehow makes an SUV not just cool, but desirable.
But then, that’s what Tesla does.
“The mission of Tesla is to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport,” CEO Elon Musk said at the car’s reveal, held at the company’s factory in Fremont, California. “It’s important to know that any kind of car can go electric.”
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http://www.wired.com/2015/09/tesla-model-x-suv-reveal-specs-price/
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