View Full Version : Review - Surefire Warcomp vs Surefire SF3P (pictures/video)
I recently purchased a Surefire Warcomp 556-1/2-28 to replace the Surefire SF3P I currently have on my rifle. Seeing as how this is a new item, with little to no reviews, I figured some might find a review and comparison helpful.
Host gun: Factory Daniel Defense MK18 upper receiver group with a registered Colt M16 lower, H3 buffer.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/740/21438851361_2c56a3629b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/yEtHAi)
The Warcomp was packaged identically to the SF3P i have, with the addition of a tool to remove and install the Warcomp. As you'll notice, the Warcomp does not have wrench flats like the SF3P, so it must be installed and removed with the use of this wrench shown later. Also I should note, as some have asked, the Warcomp does not have a "blast chamber" anymore than a SF3P does to act as a sacrificial baffle.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/644/21242320730_bc46246f01.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/yn7rT9)
Anxious to try this new tool Surefire provided, I decided to remove the SF3P with it. Note, I had soaked the rockset secured SF3P in water for 48 hours prior to removal. This did not go so well, as I began to bend and deform the tool and the 3 lugs. I ended up removing my SF3P with a standard armorers wrench. I should note, however, torquing these muzzle devices to 25 ft lbs, even with a slightly deformed tool, was no problem.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5669/21430452216_02e9a2e984.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/yDJEPs)
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5788/21430363885_3c0c805831.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/yDJdyv)
I initially was slightly annoyed, because Surefire included 4 "red" shims, several no color shims, and a green shim (there is supposed to be more). Probably a mistake, but fortunately my gun took the 1 green shim and timed perfectly. At first I was confused, as I noted there are ports on the top and the right side of the comp, but none on the left. I find out why later.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/642/21243497939_1d01d5bd4b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/yndtPR)
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/746/21438828111_73da4a4a8b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/yEtAFr)
I headed out to the range to test these 2 muzzle devices side by side. As luck would have it (after a 30 minute drive) I discovered I had forgotten my ammunition at home and only had 20 rounds of American Eagle 223 55g FMJ in a mag. It would have to do, as I was not about to drive back home without shooting the dang thing. Equipped with only a cell phone and my range bag, I set out to record the best I could trying to document any flash at dusk and muzzle rise.
I started with the SF3P. I placed a b25 target at 15 yards, kneeled about 12 inches away from the camera, shot 2 rounds on semi, then 8 rounds on FA while trying my best to use no support and just allow the gun to recoil. I found the muzzle flip was more than I expected while not trying to control the gun, and the rounds began to creep up and right.
If there is a way to embed videos, I dont know how to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTd6wzIebXY
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5715/21465292471_9ae3dc61a0.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/yGPeBv)
I headed back to the vehicle to swap out the SF3P for the Warcomp. Again, my b25 target was at 15 yards, though I by accident was about an extra foot away from the camera compared to the last test, so take note of that. I shot 2 rounds on semi auto and noted it there seemed to be less recoil. When I switched the gun to FA is when I noticed a drastic difference. This time the gun did not recoil up and right as before, but the Warcomp pushed the gun straight down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joAB8CVA2F8
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5716/21465287221_ef9015dd34.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/yGPd3Z)
I apologize, the video's did not turn out as I expected as I was standing different distances away. However, take it from me that the flash on an SBR seems to be about the same as a SF3P. Also, i'm sure if I was trying to control the gun there would be less muzzle rise/dip than shown on the targets. This is obviously not a scientific or accurate comparison, but its the best I could do with the tools at hand.
Conclusion, when compared to a SF3P:
Similar amount of flash
Significantly reduced muzzle rise, especially to the right
Slightly more concussion outdoors
If using rockset, good luck taking it off with the supplied wrench
Here is another Warcomp review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rJbQ3nV5eA
Can this device be pinned ? Not a lot of thin material around the collar area that goes over the threads.
luckydube56
09-17-15, 23:35
Given the right hand hand bias of the muzzle device, did you notice lateral movement pushing against your support hand? I've got curiosity as a left hander.
Can this device be pinned ? Not a lot of thin material around the collar area that goes over the threads.
Yes, mine has a place for it to be drilled.
Given the right hand hand bias of the muzzle device, did you notice lateral movement pushing against your support hand? I've got curiosity as a left hander.
I mainly notice less "torque" from the gun. It feels smoother.
Given the right hand hand bias of the muzzle device, did you notice lateral movement pushing against your support hand? I've got curiosity as a left hander.
I did not. And if you did, i suppose you could always time it differently to achieve the effect you're looking for.
Here are some close up Pics of it.
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_2849.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_2849.jpg.html)
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_2848.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_2848.jpg.html)http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_2845.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_2845.jpg.html)http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss72/Biggy8/IMG_2843.jpg (http://s563.photobucket.com/user/Biggy8/media/IMG_2843.jpg.html)
VelveteenMole
09-19-15, 10:38
The ported section does have a smallish aperture at the front of an enlarged chamber where the holes are drilled. It won't do as much as a two-baffle brake, but I believe it will mitigate some wear to a suppressor's blast baffle.
Also, I find the concussion at the shooter's ears less on my 10.5" w/warcomp than my 14.5" with a BCM comp or a Battlecomp.
Coal Dragger
10-19-15, 23:59
Not to necro this thread, but I just got one of these today and installed it on my Colt M4A1 SOCOM II 16" bbl.
Hopefully get out to test it later this week. I will try to post some observations of how it does versus the A2 birdcage that came off the rifle.
Can't remember where I read it, but if you installed it the way it's depicted, it's biased towards right-handed shooters...for lefty's, you just have to rotate it to the opposite, right?
Thanks for the review. I may snag one of these and then just throw a Warden on when I'm indoors.
Coal Dragger
10-20-15, 13:03
Waiting 24 hours for Rockset to set up is frustrating. May not get to test today, since I work on call, and it looks like this afternoon the RR will be requiring my services to operate a train.
For anyone who cares, Warcomp went on my Colt requiring .028" worth of washers and some tuning with the torque wrench. If tightened to 25 ft-lbs it over clocked the comp, and adding a non colored .001" washer to bring it to .029" had it under clocked by the same amount and increasing torque to the maximum of 30 ft-lbs made no difference. I then took it back down to .028" and turned the torque wrench down to the minimum 20 ft-lbs and tried that, and it got it very very close, added 1 ft-lbs to the wrench and it came out perfect. Took it all back down, cleaned all the threads, added Rockset (included with the comp), and reinstalled everything. I will also note that the included washers do not match up to the instructions sent by Surefire, the no color washers are listed as .003" but they are not, my calipers read them as .001". The kit included 1 washer that was .050" with an orange-ish dye marking, 1 washer that was .020" with green marking (correct in the instructions), 3 washers that were .005" with red marking, and 4 non colored washers at .001".
The degree/clock wheel included in the instructions did indicate pretty close to the correct washer thickness needed, albeit with combinations of washers that didn't match up with what was supplied, good thing I have calipers! Speaking of calipers, if you have a set, it is easier, and faster to simply screw the device on and use your calipers to measure the gap in three places once the device is clocked properly. I use three points of measurement to roughly ensure that the shoulder of the barrel is square, and mine is, incidentally the gap I measured was .027" so it seems that with specified torque the washers may compress ever so slightly since the combination of .027" worth of washers had the device over clocked a bit at even the minimum torque. Also for anyone who is going to buy one of these and install it yourself, be very careful with the non colored .001" washers, I ripped one of mine torquing it down as I had the the stack with the thicker washers towards the chamber and the thinner washers towards the muzzle. This proved to be a mistake since the muzzle device is bearing on the washer as you turn it and tighten it down (I'm a moron and didn't consider this...), and the .001" stainless steel washer won't hold up to that more than about 1-2 times. After this I sandwiched the .001" washers between the more robust washers and it worked like a champ since they don't have to take both pressure and rotational force that way.
HighSpeedDreams
10-20-15, 18:47
Also appreciate you posting this! Been trying to get some solid feedback on the Warcomp prior to opening the wallet.
Coal Dragger
10-20-15, 19:37
Got a chance to shoot this combo today. I have mixed feelings about it, but overall not a bad device. Not as flat shooting or as soft as a big three chamber comp like a Dreadnaught F2, but it also doesn't make as much noise or as much blast.
I notice a lot of movement out of this carbine, and I can't pin down why it is so jumpy. I think it is over gassed, and the H2 buffer is probably not helping with more forward movement as the bolt carrier group goes back into battery. I like mid length and rifle length gas systems a lot more.
Waiting 24 hours for Rockset to set up is frustrating. May not get to test today, since I work on call, and it looks like this afternoon the RR will be requiring my services to operate a train.
You can accelerate rocksett cure time by using a heat-gun, or an oven.
For anyone who cares, Warcomp went on my Colt requiring .028" worth of washers and some tuning with the torque wrench. If tightened to 25 ft-lbs it over clocked the comp, and adding a non colored .001" washer to bring it to .029" had it under clocked by the same amount and increasing torque to the maximum of 30 ft-lbs made no difference. I then took it back down to .028" and turned the torque wrench down to the minimum 20 ft-lbs and tried that, and it got it very very close, added 1 ft-lbs to the wrench and it came out perfect. Took it all back down, cleaned all the threads, added Rockset (included with the comp), and reinstalled everything. I will also note that the included washers do not match up to the instructions sent by Surefire, the no color washers are listed as .003" but they are not, my calipers read them as .001". The kit included 1 washer that was .050" with an orange-ish dye marking, 1 washer that was .020" with green marking (correct in the instructions), 3 washers that were .005" with red marking, and 4 non colored washers at .001". I usually wing it, and shoot for 20-25#. Anything around 20 is plenty, and anything over 30 is excessive.
The degree/clock wheel included in the instructions did indicate pretty close to the correct washer thickness needed, albeit with combinations of washers that didn't match up with what was supplied, good thing I have calipers! Speaking of calipers, if you have a set, it is easier, and faster to simply screw the device on and use your calipers to measure the gap in three places once the device is clocked properly. I use three points of measurement to roughly ensure that the shoulder of the barrel is square, and mine is, incidentally the gap I measured was .027" so it seems that with specified torque the washers may compress ever so slightly since the combination of .027" worth of washers had the device over clocked a bit at even the minimum torque. Also for anyone who is going to buy one of these and install it yourself, be very careful with the non colored .001" washers, I ripped one of mine torquing it down as I had the the stack with the thicker washers towards the chamber and the thinner washers towards the muzzle. I always place the spacer, correctly, and then the thinnest shims, and then, outermost on the stack, toward the muzzle device, my thicker shims. This proved to be a mistake since the muzzle device is bearing on the washer as you turn it and tighten it down (I'm a moron and didn't consider this...), and the .001" stainless steel washer won't hold up to that more than about 1-2 times. After this I sandwiched the .001" washers between the more robust washers and it worked like a champ since they don't have to take both pressure and rotational force that way.
Other helpful tricks are to hand-tighten the muzzle device onto your spacer stack with the muzzle vertical while using fingers/thumbs to keep the stack flush. This helps prevent misalignment in your spacer stack. Further, I have shot Rocksett uncured, and nothing bad happened. However, to cure it completely, you can use heat and this cuts cure time DRASTICALLY. The instructions come with the full-size bottle of Rocksett. I recall it being relatively low heat (120-220*F) for 15-60 minutes or something.
Got a chance to shoot this combo today. I have mixed feelings about it, but overall not a bad device. Not as flat shooting or as soft as a big three chamber comp like a Dreadnaught F2, but it also doesn't make as much noise or as much blast.
I notice a lot of movement out of this carbine, and I can't pin down why it is so jumpy. I think it is over gassed, and the H2 buffer is probably not helping with more forward movement as the bolt carrier group goes back into battery. I like mid length and rifle length gas systems a lot more.
Are you noticing muzzle-dip on return to battery? The Vltor A5 system uses heavier buffers, and yet, I have NOT noted the muzzle-dip that the carbine system can induce. I would heavily consider the Vltor A5 if your combo is "punchy" and to eliminate that, you have to put up with muzzle-dip. A5 should really smooth it out.
Here is some more review footage of the Warcomp that I filmed back mid July.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3y0g0vHGYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JvAlzr1leM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgiZaecMo3A
Coal Dragger
10-21-15, 02:08
Are you noticing muzzle-dip on return to battery? The Vltor A5 system uses heavier buffers, and yet, I have NOT noted the muzzle-dip that the carbine system can induce. I would heavily consider the Vltor A5 if your combo is "punchy" and to eliminate that, you have to put up with muzzle-dip. A5 should really smooth it out.
Seems to be alot of movement from BCG reciprocation more so than muzzle rise. I did most of my shooting today from a bench rest to see if the Warcomp changed anything in the barrel harmonics or otherwise changed accuracy or precision. To accomplish this I mounted a Nightforce 3.5-15×50 that I had been using last week to do some precision testing on this rifle. The Warcomp changed nothing, and I can report that a Nightforce Uni-Mount will return to zero pretty well even without a torque wrench. Using the glass I could track sight picture disturbance pretty well and noticed much more movement that I would attribute to the BCG than to recoil from the round being fired prior to the bolt unlocking.
Using the same glass on another upper I assembled with a Daniel Defense 18" S2W with a Dreadnaught F2 and adjustable gas block, there is far less sight picture disturbance. However that upper has a fairly well dialed in gas system, and a very aggressive compensator. Thus it shoots much softer between the bigger comp, mid length gas, and adjustable gas block. Even before the adjustable gas block it shot really soft since the gas port size is tuned on that barrel.
After I did my accuracy/precision work, I reinstalled the Aimpoint in the ARMS throw lever mount, and did a little offhand rapid fire. I got called in to work, so only shot 20 rounds, and did so at 100 yards. Unsurprisingly offhand rapid fire at that distance on 100 yard zeroing targets was not exactly spectacular, and not a fair test of the Warcomp. Still it seemed like it wanted to push down and slightly left where the A2 birdcage would walk up and to the right. My unscientific observation here is that I was observing fairly flat muzzle control, and no tendency to climb up and right. Seemed neutral at the shot, but then sight picture becomes disturbed from BCG movement, which looks like a quick jolt to the right as it bottoms out in the buffer tube pushing back on my right shoulder, and a quick leftward and slightly down jolt as it slams back into battery. Keep in mind this is all happening pretty quickly so tracking all of it visually and trying to assign sequence timing is a crap shoot for me. I'll do more shooting to see what it does at realistic bullet hose distances on larger targets, as well as some formal KD course type stuff like kneeling and prone timed fire/rapid fire.
My only other observations are that my particular 16" Colt M4A1 contour barrel seems to be unremarkable in the precision department. It seems like 10 shot groups at 100 yards want to hover around just under 2" with 55gr FMJ, and about 1.5" to 1.75" with 55gr Nosler ballistic tips. The 77gr Sierra Match King turns in a 10 shot group of right around 1.5" as well, although most of them are in a tight cluster with a few strays. I'm going to re-test all of these loads in brand new brass next time to see if/how much the mixed brass degrades precision.
I'm also sad to say that the Geissele SD3G trigger with this carbine/upper combination can't be considered safe. With the amount of fore/aft movement this carbine displays, the super short reset on the trigger was giving me some doubles on the bench. While this is entertaining in a juvenile way on a safe range all to myself with a huge berm, it is not acceptable any other time or place. Too bad since it works perfrctly with the 18" bbl upper. So I'll send it back to Brownell's in exchange for either the SSA or SSA-E.
Seems to be alot of movement from BCG reciprocation more so than muzzle rise. I did most of my shooting today from a bench rest to see if the Warcomp changed anything in the barrel harmonics or otherwise changed accuracy or precision. To accomplish this I mounted a Nightforce 3.5-15×50 that I had been using last week to do some precision testing on this rifle. The Warcomp changed nothing, and I can report that a Nightforce Uni-Mount will return to zero pretty well even without a torque wrench. Can you quantify this? I would like to hear more. Feel free to PM so as not to clutter a muzzle-device thread, if you want! Using the glass I could track sight picture disturbance pretty well and noticed much more movement that I would attribute to the BCG than to recoil from the round being fired prior to the bolt unlocking.
Using the same glass on another upper I assembled with a Daniel Defense 18" S2W with a Dreadnaught F2 and adjustable gas block, there is far less sight picture disturbance. However that upper has a fairly well dialed in gas system, and a very aggressive compensator. Thus it shoots much softer between the bigger comp, mid length gas, and adjustable gas block. Even before the adjustable gas block it shot really soft since the gas port size is tuned on that barrel.
After I did my accuracy/precision work, I reinstalled the Aimpoint in the ARMS throw lever mount, and did a little offhand rapid fire. I got called in to work, so only shot 20 rounds, and did so at 100 yards. Unsurprisingly offhand rapid fire at that distance on 100 yard zeroing targets was not exactly spectacular, and not a fair test of the Warcomp. Still it seemed like it wanted to push down and slightly left where the A2 birdcage would walk up and to the right. My unscientific observation here is that I was observing fairly flat muzzle control, and no tendency to climb up and right. Seemed neutral at the shot, but then sight picture becomes disturbed from BCG movement, which looks like a quick jolt to the right as it bottoms out in the buffer tube pushing back on my right shoulder, and a quick leftward and slightly down jolt as it slams back into battery. Keep in mind this is all happening pretty quickly so tracking all of it visually and trying to assign sequence timing is a crap shoot for me. I'll do more shooting to see what it does at realistic bullet hose distances on larger targets, as well as some formal KD course type stuff like kneeling and prone timed fire/rapid fire. From what you are describing, I think you would notice an improvement using the Vltor A5 system. It slows things down, smooths things out.
My only other observations are that my particular 16" Colt M4A1 contour barrel seems to be unremarkable in the precision department. It seems like 10 shot groups at 100 yards want to hover around just under 2" with 55gr FMJ, and about 1.5" to 1.75" with 55gr Nosler ballistic tips. The 77gr Sierra Match King turns in a 10 shot group of right around 1.5" as well, although most of them are in a tight cluster with a few strays. I'm going to re-test all of these loads in brand new brass next time to see if/how much the mixed brass degrades precision.
I'm also sad to say that the Geissele SD3G trigger with this carbine/upper combination can't be considered safe. With the amount of fore/aft movement this carbine displays, the super short reset on the trigger was giving me some doubles on the bench. While this is entertaining in a juvenile way on a safe range all to myself with a huge berm, it is not acceptable any other time or place. Too bad since it works perfrctly with the 18" bbl upper. So I'll send it back to Brownell's in exchange for either the SSA or SSA-E.
I have had doubles on a Geissele Super V before when holding the carbine very lightly to test function. I am more and more becoming a huge fan of the SSA's.
Coal Dragger
10-21-15, 03:37
Exactly my issue. It never manifests itself when shooting off hand, or from a position where I have very positive shoulder pressure and firm grip on the fore end. From the bench though, I am dealing with trying to isolate the rifle from me as possible to reduce variables, so I avoid muscling the weapon. Particularly challenging dealing with the short collapsible stock on the rear bag, if I lean into the butt stock the bag wants to shift forward and it screws up the natural point of aim I just established. So shooting tight groups is a challenge due to equipment issues with the tiny stock and inadequate rear bag. So in concentrating on all that it's easy to relax and let the shoot loose only to not keep the rifle firmly shouldered and bang-bang!
I guess I should be impressed that more often than not it will hammer both shots close to the same point of impact at 100 yards from a solid position. With the A2 birdcage it doubled a bit too, and strung the second shot out of the main group every time.
Exactly my issue. It never manifests itself when shooting off hand, or from a position where I have very positive shoulder pressure and firm grip on the fore end. From the bench though, I am dealing with trying to isolate the rifle from me as possible to reduce variables, so I avoid muscling the weapon. Particularly challenging dealing with the short collapsible stock on the rear bag, if I lean into the butt stock the bag wants to shift forward and it screws up the natural point of aim I just established. So shooting tight groups is a challenge due to equipment issues with the tiny stock and inadequate rear bag. So in concentrating on all that it's easy to relax and let the shoot loose only to not keep the rifle firmly shouldered and bang-bang!
I guess I should be impressed that more often than not it will hammer both shots close to the same point of impact at 100 yards from a solid position. With the A2 birdcage it doubled a bit too, and strung the second shot out of the main group every time.
I usually just use the magazine as a monopod while seated, and using a T2 and magnifier, typically shoot 2 MOA groups (10-shot) with Ranger Bonded, which is about all that ammo is good for. I have not really tried to shoot any 100 yard groups with better ammo. Have you just tried using the magazine as a monopod and not worrying about all those other things?
Coal Dragger
10-21-15, 13:01
Sure, but you usually won't come close to the potential of the rifle. I have a background in competitive bullseye shooting, and some small bore and high power target rifle as well. So I enjoy trying to get the best out of a firearm.
My other AR or upper depending on how you look at it, with the Daniel Defense barrel is sickeningly accurate with the ammo I tested the Colt barrel with. At least it is considering it is also a 1:7 5.56 NATO chambered barrel. The 77gr MK load can put 10 shots into under 1" when I can do my part.
Coal Dragger
11-13-15, 02:24
Another necro post.
Been shooting this rifle and muzzle device some more, and let some friends shoot it. I'm liking it more with use than I did at first. Watching two other shooters shoot off hand with the carbine I can see the muzzle stays pretty damn flat, the movement of sight picture is definitely happening on the closing stroke of the action after firing and returning to battery. Not the fault of the Warcomp, just how this carbine is with the stock gas system, and buffer.
The Warcomp doesn't seem to do anything to mitigate rearward recoil, at least not enough to be noticeable to me. It does control muzzle movement at the shot pretty well, stays pretty neutral no pushing to the left or down from the venting.
I notice no muzzle flash at around dusk, so it seems to live up to claims to reduce flash. As a bonus it also doesn't seem any more blasty than an A2 birdcage. At least not standing a few feet away even on the right side of the weapon. I can't and won't verify that any closer since I personally have no need to. I do notice the tines on the flash hider ring when the bolt closes on an empty chamber, don't notice it on firing or when loading a round, but I have ear pro on at those times.
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