View Full Version : Off the bench 100yd marksmanship
Honorthecall81
09-19-15, 00:56
Getting a feel for what everyone on here considers to be good to
decent marksmanship at 100yds (off the bench) with:
* A variable optic (1-4, 1-6, etc) , or magnified optic
* A red dot, holographic, iron site or other non magnified
means of shooting.
* Also if you want to include 16inch, 14.5, or SBR considerations
as well feel free.
* Talk target grouping, diameter , or just plain "you should be
able to hit this at 100" to achieve good to decent marksmanship.
Remember guys and gals , we are talking off the bench shooting
and unsupported
~3" or less with bulk ammo and red dot or scope.
~1.5" or less with match ammo
You are confusing me with the way you worded it.. Do you mean unsupported?
Honorthecall81
09-19-15, 07:03
You are confusing me with the way you worded it.. Do you mean unsupported?
Yes I mean unsupported. I'll edit and clarify that.
If you mean unsupported I'd say you should be able to hit an 8" plate at 100 yards with any sight system. From an improvised rest maybe half that.
mattpittinger
09-19-15, 10:19
If you can stay on a pie plate your doing good offhand. 4" circle your doing great. Slow deliberate fire from a good offhand stance. 4" should be a solid benchmark. Moderately rapid shooting, or engaging multiple targets 8" is a pretty good standard.
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You want to see how small an 8" plate is at 100 yds??? Put a plate stand at 100 yds with the plate on the ground beside it.. Start the timer with the shooter's cleared rifle shouldered... Shooter sprints to the stand, places plate on stand and sprints back to the line loads and engages the plate with as many rounds as it takes standing offhand. Fastest time wins. Trust me... this is a young mans game.
556BlackRifle
09-19-15, 12:14
To me, this is real shooting and separates the men from the boys. Off hand with my Aimpoint PRO at 100 yards, I'd be happy to consistently get hits on a 10" steel plate. Using a magnified optic such as my *Leupold Mark AR mod 1 (1.5 - 4) a nice cluster should appear on the plate. (*Same setup from the bench I'm usually sub to 1.5 MOA depending on the load.)
This is where high power match shooting proves it's worth.
IMO you can pull the trigger as fast as you want on targets inside 50 meters and not show much marksmanship ability.
The 10 ring on an SR1 target is 3.35"
If you can shoot an 8" group offhand standing at 100 yards with iron sights, I'd call that very good.
Interesting discussion and to see what others can do. I agree that the original post is ambiguous. Here's my take.
If you're benching the gun - i.e. shooting off a rest or a bi-pod your contribution to group size should ideally be close to zero (particularly with a reasonably powered scope). So around 2" groups with military surplus ammo, 1" or better with match ammo (depending on how accurate your rifle is). Of course, in the real world a lot of us (including me) are going to add some operator error.
Prone or sitting - I personally can pretty consistently keep about 85-90% of my rounds in the black of an SR-1 target (about 6.25 inches across) with some kind of optic - anything over about 3.5X seems to work pretty well. That's using XM-193 out of a decent quality AR. My results deteriorate a little if I'm using a red dot. I suspect this is decent, but nothing to write home about. We do have a high power shooter who is a distinguished marksman in our gun club who is pissed if he doesn't cleans these targets in competition - i.e. all 10's shooting rapid fire prone and sitting, using a match rifle, hand loaded ammo and shooting jacket but with iron sites obviously.
Offhand - Honestly, I think this is what separates the men from the boys. If you can keep 75% of your rounds in the black on an SR-1 target I think you're doing pretty damn well. Personally, if I can get 60% hits on a 10" plate with a standard AR and milsurp. ammo I'm pretty happy, but my offhand shooting could definitely use some improvement. Also, I find when shooting offhand red dots to be almost easier to shoot accurately than scopes, particularly anything over about 6X.
daddyusmaximus
09-19-15, 17:06
You want to see how small an 8" plate is at 100 yds??? Put a plate stand at 100 yds with the plate on the ground beside it.. Start the timer with the shooter's cleared rifle shouldered... Shooter sprints to the stand, places plate on stand and sprints back to the line loads and engages the plate with as many rounds as it takes standing offhand. Fastest time wins. Trust me... this is a young mans game.
Hell yeah it is! Old, fat, cripple and half blind, I walk with a cane if I'm going far, and can hardly identify a target at 200 without glass. (100 yds and back could qualify as "far" unless I take my time) I can keep on an 8" paper plate at 100 with my SBR and it's Aimpoint, but not a pretty group. With my RECCE and it's 1-4 scope I'm better, but not as fast.
Some of us will not be going on any more extended dismounted patrols. We have been placed on "speed bump" status.
Howdy,
Like the above poster I'm old, slow, fat, lazy, half blind, and out of shape, plus I am a cripple. But, if you cannot shoot clay pigeons on the 100 yard target line's berm offhand ( this means standing upright, without any type of rest or support ) with a decent quality iron sighted gun w/ quality ammo about 90% of the time you are not a good rifle shot. Anything below 50%, you are a poor rifle shot.
Since this is an AR forum I'll use an AR as an example:
With the conditions as listed above, with a red dot sighted AR the number would be 95% and 99% with a 4X power scope or larger.
Shooting from a bench without any stress on a KD range ( KD = Known Distance ) basically on shows the ability of the gun, not the shooter.
I've seen people before that had never fired a rifle before hit 8" plates at 300yds from a bench with a rifle that had already been sighted in at that distance. Several of these "people" were 12 & 13yo girls that were friends with my daughter and two stepdaughters.
Anywho........ I've always considered myself a decent shot with any type of gun, not a great shot, just a decent shot and I shoot clays at the hundred yard berm at +98% from a scoped AR.
But in my youth........
Paul
Howdy,
Like the above poster I'm old, slow, fat, lazy, half blind, and out of shape, plus I am a cripple. But, if you cannot shoot clay pigeons on the 100 yard target line's berm offhand ( this means standing upright, without any type of rest or support ) with a decent quality iron sighted gun w/ quality ammo about 90% of the time you are not a good rifle shot. Anything below 50%, you are a poor rifle shot.
Since this is an AR forum I'll use an AR as an example:
With the conditions as listed above, with a red dot sighted AR the number would be 95% and 99% with a 4X power scope or larger.
Shooting from a bench without any stress on a KD range ( KD = Known Distance ) basically on shows the ability of the gun, not the shooter.
I've seen people before that had never fired a rifle before hit 8" plates at 300yds from a bench with a rifle that had already been sighted in at that distance. Several of these "people" were 12 & 13yo girls that were friends with my daughter and two stepdaughters.
Anywho........ I've always considered myself a decent shot with any type of gun, not a great shot, just a decent shot and I shoot clays at the hundred yard berm at +98% from a scoped AR.
But in my youth........
Paul
OK Paul, either you are being very modest when you characterize yourself as a "decent" shot or exaggerating your abilities. Since I don't know you I won't presume to say which of the two it is. I base this conclusion on knowing at least a little about high power shooting and knowing a few high power shooters. The SR-1 target used in these competitions for standing at 100 yards has a 10 ring that is slightly smaller than a clay. The 9 ring is approx. 1.5 inches larger than a clay. If you are able to shoot a non-competition rifle, without a shooting jacket, using non-match ammo into either the 9 or 10 ring on nearly all of your shots you are doing as well as, if not better than an awful lot of high power shooters using the best equipment. If your accuracy goes up to 98%+ with a scoped AR you are out shooting at least one distinguished marksmen I regularly shoot with. This is someone who regularly wins or places in the top 5 shooters of most service rifle matches he competes in, and has done very well in the national matches at Camp Perry.
Again, I'm not saying you can't do it, or that it can't be done In fact, I would love to see you post a video of yourself shooting a line of 20 clays at 100 yards with the rifle and scope of your choice. If you are able to hit 19 of them I will be very impressed and bow down to your superior marksmanship. But until then, I can't help but be a little skeptical.
Honorthecall81
09-20-15, 17:57
Yes!! Videos of shooting unsupported at 100! Now
we are on to something!
militarymoron
09-21-15, 15:40
In fact, I would love to see you post a video of yourself shooting a line of 20 clays at 100 yards with the rifle and scope of your choice. If you are able to hit 19 of them I will be very impressed and bow down to your superior marksmanship. But until then, I can't help but be a little skeptical.
I'd like to see it with iron sights as stated: "if you cannot shoot clay pigeons on the 100 yard target line's berm offhand ( this means standing upright, without any type of rest or support ) with a decent quality iron sighted gun w/ quality ammo about 90% of the time you are not a good rifle shot."
"a decent quality iron sighted gun w/ quality ammo about 90% of the time you are not a good rifle shot."
I'm wondering if it is really true that a person who can not hit clay pigeons, shooting offhand, irons only, at 100 yard, 90% of the time is not a good rifle shot.
Does anyone have any documentation for this assertion? Any proof?
How does this square with military marksmanship standards and awards?
Plus, I'd like to see somebody actually do this under battlefield stress, and while those "clay pigeons" are shooting back at you.
Frankly, you'd probably be an idiot to remain standing in the open while taking incoming fire and would probably hit the deck and shoot from the prone position, right?
Or better yet, call in an air strike. :)
Frankly, you'd probably be an idiot to remain standing in the open while taking incoming fire and would probably hit the deck and shoot from the prone position, right?
My thoughts exactly. Is there a reason to practice slow and steady 100 yard standing shots?
Coal Dragger
09-21-15, 16:59
My thoughts exactly. Is there a reason to practice slow and steady 100 yard standing shots?
Well building fundamental marksmanship for one. Not every skill set has to have a tactical application.
Look at it this way, if you can reliably make standing off hand shots at 100 yards, or 200 yards then your other positions will probably improve as well. Your kneeling will improve from this quite a bit since it is barely more stable than standing. Furthermore when it comes time to shoot low probability targets at closer ranges from standing it will be a lot easier if you have worked hard on your standing off hand shooting already.
My thoughts exactly. Is there a reason to practice slow and steady 100 yard standing shots?
Well if you can hit clays 98% of the time at 100 yards you should have no trouble picking off people at 500+ yards. Based on the skill level of most people I've seen at public ranges I'd feel pretty safe at those distances.:D
Shooting prone at 10 ft also increases skill but like slow steady offhand at 100 yards I don't see it as a valuable use of time.
Well building fundamental marksmanship for one. Not every skill set has to have a tactical application.
Look at it this way, if you can reliably make standing off hand shots at 100 yards, or 200 yards then your other positions will probably improve as well. Your kneeling will improve from this quite a bit since it is barely more stable than standing. Furthermore when it comes time to shoot low probability targets at closer ranges from standing it will be a lot easier if you have worked hard on your standing off hand shooting already.
Coal Dragger
09-21-15, 19:59
Shooting prone at 10 ft also increases skill but like slow steady offhand at 100 yards I don't see it as a valuable use of time.
Well I suppose that is your loss. If all you care about is hosing down targets at 15 yards to each his own I guess.
I like shooting off hand standing for the challenge if nothing else.
Well I suppose that is your loss. If all you care about is hosing down targets at 15 yards to each his own I guess.
I like shooting off hand standing for the challenge if nothing else.
My match this past weekend had targets out to 300 yards. Prone for me.
If you enjoy offhand at 100 yards, have at it.
Honorthecall81
09-22-15, 19:45
I think just going out and shooting at any distance
is bound to make you better somewhat. Offhand
or not.
usually with a 16" carbine, red dot, using various ammo at 100 yards, bench, supported with myself only (sometimes magazine monopod), I can consistently get 2-4" 5-shot groups.
A few weeks back, prone at 50 with a CompM4, I got a 5 shot group at just about 1 inch (measured w/ tape measure, not calipers).
This thread has me curious now. I'm going to have to go out and try five 5-shot groups or something similar. To cut out any excuses for myself, I'll shoot a first group prone supported as a "control" group.
with magnified optics, supported by only sling and body, assuming a reasonable amount of time:
prone, slung, 2 moa is good. 1 moa is pretty dang good
sitting, slung, 3 moa is good. 1.5 moa is pretty dang good.
sitting, smarter, 2 moa is good. 1 moa is doable.
practical standing gets pretty dependent on gear and what you're doing. if you are somewhere it's not possible for you to get lower, AND there's nothing to brace on like a wall, car, barricade, tree, whatever, AND you don't have time to set up artificial support, like grabbing a stick, or throwing your sling over something above you, etc, you are probably not going to get a traditional high power stance either and your target may be moving, and wind blowing you is a PITA. so... 6 moa is probably iffy for most.
however, if we're just talking bouncing coke cans around the berm at 50 yards on a nice flat square range standing with your carbine, that suddenly seems pretty easy, but still 6 moa target. 7 hits out of 10 on a 6" ten ring from 200 is a very competitive score in HP
Uniform Tango 74
09-22-15, 23:30
Getting a feel for what everyone on here considers to be good to
decent marksmanship at 100yds (off the bench) with:
* A variable optic (1-4, 1-6, etc) , or magnified optic
* A red dot, holographic, iron site or other non magnified
means of shooting.
* Also if you want to include 16inch, 14.5, or SBR considerations
as well feel free.
* Talk target grouping, diameter , or just plain "you should be
able to hit this at 100" to achieve good to decent marksmanship.
Remember guys and gals , we are talking off the bench shooting
and unsupported
I use 2-3moa red dot scopes with no magnification on my rifles and hit 100 and 200 yard steel all day via offhand shooting. I'm a MOM kinda guy when it comes to my semi auto rifles. I leave the MOA stuff for bolt actions.
Fatorangecat
09-23-15, 00:58
There are some awesome shots on the internet. I have spent a good bit of money on precision ARs and I'm happy to have a sub MOA rifle off a rear bag and bipod. Shooting one 2" group at 100 yards off hand does not qualify as being a 2 MOA offhand shooter, you need to be able to do it with consistency. If you cant shoot the group 3 times in a row you cant claim to shoot the group. With match ammo and magnification at 100 yards I expect MOA or better, with surplus I expect 2-3 MOA because thats all the ammo is good for. With a red dot you will only shoot as good as the dot size. A 2 MOA aimpoint will not shoot better than 2 MOA, thats a 4" group at 200 yards. Anybody that claims better than this needs to post up proof or they are full of shit.
Uniform Tango 74
09-23-15, 01:00
There are some awesome shots on the internet. I have spent a good bit of money on precision ARs and I'm happy to have a sub MOA rifle off a rear bag and bipod. Shooting one 2" group at 100 yards off hand does not qualify as being a 2 MOA offhand shooter, you need to be able to do it with consistency. If you cant shoot the group 3 times in a row you cant claim to shoot the group. With match ammo and magnification at 100 yards I expect MOA or better, with surplus I expect 2-3 MOA because thats all the ammo is good for. With a red dot you will only shoot as good as the dot size. A 2 MOA aimpoint will not shoot better than 2 MOA, thats a 4" group at 200 yards. Anybody that claims better than this needs to post up proof or they are full of shit.
/\/\/\
YEAH! WHAT HE SAID!
LOL!!!!
There are some awesome shots on the internet. I have spent a good bit of money on precision ARs and I'm happy to have a sub MOA rifle off a rear bag and bipod. Shooting one 2" group at 100 yards off hand does not qualify as being a 2 MOA offhand shooter, you need to be able to do it with consistency. If you cant shoot the group 3 times in a row you cant claim to shoot the group. With match ammo and magnification at 100 yards I expect MOA or better, with surplus I expect 2-3 MOA because thats all the ammo is good for. With a red dot you will only shoot as good as the dot size. A 2 MOA aimpoint will not shoot better than 2 MOA, thats a 4" group at 200 yards. Anybody that claims better than this needs to post up proof or they are full of shit. A 2min Aimpoint can absolutely shoot less than 2" if you know what you are doing. It's all about the target you are shooting at.
Fatorangecat
09-23-15, 01:59
A 2min Aimpoint can absolutely shoot less than 2" if you know what you are doing. It's all about the target you are shooting at.
Post it up. Shoot three consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards with your 2 MOA Aimpoint.
Uniform Tango 74
09-23-15, 02:21
Post it up. Shoot three consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards with your 2 MOA Aimpoint.
Off hand or from the bench?
Off hand, I highly doubt it's possible...like I've said, I've hit steel off hand 200-300 yards using a 2 & 3 MOA red dot, but the grouping would be nothing to write home about. 9" spread at the least.
Benchrest, it would prove to be a difficult challenge, but an interesting one nonetheless. I'll be hitting the range in a couple days to test out my 8.5" SBR. It has a PA micro red dot with a 2 MOA dot. I'll definitely try this out from the bench just for Poo poos & Mirth. I'll get vid and photos up.
WARNING: The person who will be demonstrating this exercise IS NOT a professional door kicker, hitman, sniper, military/LE vet or gun shop story teller. He has aging eyes, an astigmatism in his shooting eye, 41 year old nerves, and has a tendency to be impatient. That being said the results will be inconclusive, but great conversation content for firearm forums for years to come.
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
556BlackRifle
09-23-15, 02:31
A 2min Aimpoint can absolutely shoot less than 2" if you know what you are doing. It's all about the target you are shooting at.
I shot with my Aimpoint PRO 2 MOA Dot today. At 50 yards I was making headshots on Shoot'n See Squirrel stickers. At 100 yards they were too small for me to shoot reliably. Set up an NRA 8" bull and was making hits all in the black but nowhere near 2 inches. Maybe a 6 to 7 inch spread. Got out my other rifle with a Leupold Mark AR 1.5 - 4 and was shooting sub to 1.2 MOA 10 shot groups. And I had to work at it. One group was 0.6 MOA for 9 of 10 shots but one flier opened it up to 1.15 MOA. Good for you if you're able to shoot 2 MOA or less with a red dot at 100 yards. Wish I could. :)
Uniform Tango 74
09-23-15, 02:34
I shot with my Aimpoint PRO 2 MOA Dot today. At 50 yards I was making headshots on Shoot'n See Squirrel stickers. At 100 yards they were too small for me to shoot reliably. Set up an NRA 8" bull and was making hits all in the black but nowhere near 2 inches. Maybe a 6 to 7 inch spread. Got out my other rifle with a Leupold Mark AR 1.5 - 4 and was shooting sub to 1.2 MOA 10 shot groups. And I had to work at it. One group was 0.6 MOA for 9 of 10 shots but one flier opened it up to 1.15 MOA. Good for you if you're able to shoot 2 MOA or less with a red dot at 100 yards. Wish I could. :)
My results are gonna be beyond sad, but hilarious. LOL!!!
Fatorangecat
09-23-15, 02:36
I will try to get to the range this week as well. There is a difference between mechanical accuracy and practical accuracy. Is it mechanically possible to shoot a sub MOA group with a 2 MOA dot? It is possible but in my experience it was far from consistent or practical. I dialed down the intensity of my dot and used the 12 o'clock position of the dot to shrink my point of reference while aiming. I shot a few decent groups off a rear bag but the the slightest deviation from solid fundamentals and the group was gone. I was unable to achieve anything consistent enough to claim I could shoot 2 MOA with a 2 MOA dot. Your simply using the wrong tool for the job. Shooting sub MOA with a semi and a magnified optic is a challenge in itself, just look at the MOA challenge here and over on the hide. Bottom line, more often than not the rifle and optic will outperform the shooter, rarely does the shooter outperform the hardware. Like I said before, post it up.
2nd.amendment
09-23-15, 06:40
Molon has a thread where he shoots with an Aimpoint. Like all his posts, it was very interesting. I'll see if I can find it.
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2nd.amendment
09-23-15, 06:43
Here it is. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?34995-Range-Report-Precision-Shooting-With-an-Aimpoint
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as was said, what is important is how repeatable your sight picture is. consider high power shooters using iron sights. they are aligning the giant "black" circle with the front sight of their rifle, and putting a tiny group in the center of the 10/x rings. their groups usually are much much smaller than the size of the target,which is also the width of the front sight. on the range, the size of the red dot has no relationship to the size of the group. if you have appropriate target for your sights, you can shoot tiny groups. practical accuracy is another matter
i don't shoot a ton of groups, but here's my sight in target for the lightweight 5lb AR i built this summer
first rounds fired from this rifle...
from 50 yards, sitting on tailgate, forearm on support hand on side of truck, no support under the rear (no bags etc, just shoulder.) spun the adjustments waaaay too far on shot 2, then shot 3 and 4 finally got near the 1/2" bull. then shot a 3 round group. yeah, it's just 3 rounds, but it's 1/4" at 50 yards, which is plenty good enough for shooting IPSC plates while running. (red dot in center is 5/8") so that was shot with a 9 MOA RMR pictured below. it was easy to align because for some evolutionary mystery, our eyes are pretty dang good at aligning concentric circles. imho it's a lot easier to put a 4.5" green dot in the middle of a 6" shoot n see than it is to hold two perpendicular lines in the middle of a circle.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/lightweightarsightin.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/lightweightarsight.jpg
My results are gonna be beyond sad, but hilarious. LOL!!!
Personally Tango I'm a lot more impressed with someone who shoots 8" groups offhand at 100, but is willing to post pictures of their actual results than by some internet marksman who shoots "sub MOA all day" from behind his keyboard, but is never willing to post any actual targets.:D I'll be interested in your results.
I do think sub 2 MOA is possible with an Aimpoint assuming you have the right gun, the right ammo, the right target and the right shooter. Of course that's benched.
And I also agree with those posters who make the point that just because you once shot a 2" group at 100 yards, doesn't make you a 2MOA shooter, just as shooting one 5 shot .75 MOA group from the bench doesn't make your rifle a .75MOA rifle. Now if you can do it five times in a row, and are willing to post the targets to prove it, I'll be impressed.
With a red dot you will only shoot as good as the dot size.
You know not of what you speak.
Range Report: Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint
First and foremost, the Aimpoint red dot sight is a combat sight. Its primary purpose is for use in situations that require “reflexive shooting” at multiple targets, at close ranges. The Aimpoint excels in this type of shooting because it easily allows you to shoot with both eyes open and to focus on the target while shooting. All of my self-defense AR-15s have Aimpoints mounted on them. However, should the need arise (for example, making a head-shot on an aggressor at 100 yards who has most of his body behind hard cover) the Aimpoint sight is certainly up to the task of making precision shots.
There are those who claim that when using an Aimpoint sight with a four minute of angle dot, that it is not possible to shoot groups that are smaller than four minutes of angle in extreme spread. One such person has gone so far as to claim that groups shot from 100 yards using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot will be “greater than 4 inches. Usually much greater.” As we shall soon see, such statements are completely false.
To determine the level of precision obtainable when using an Aimpoint sight with a 4 MOA dot, I mounted an Aimpoint ML2 with a 4 MOA dot on one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s. This AR-15 is easily capable of producing consistent sub-MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards when using a high magnification scope. Shooting with the Aimpoint sight was done from a bench-rest at a distance of 100 yards using NRA 200 yard High Power type targets scaled-down for 100 yards. (The aiming black is approximately the same width as a human head.) Sighting was done using the whole dot centered on the bullseye. Three 10-shot groups were fired in a row for evaluation.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/q9l5quki4y.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/qmpuquyrp1.jpg
Zeroing the Aimpoint sight at 100 yards was conducted during a down-pour with 20-25 mph winds. The first two 10-shot groups were also fired under these conditions. The first 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.41”.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/m97mctqy35.jpg
With another couple clicks of windage and elevation adjustment, the second 10-shot group had all shots going into the X-ring. The extreme spread for this group was 1.19”.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/sd5xfhre13.jpg
Just as quickly as the down-pour had started, the rain stopped, the winds died down and the sun began shining again. I posted a new and dry target on the 100 yard backer and continued shooting. The third 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.14”. The average extreme spread for all three of the 10-shot groups was 1.25”.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/vcm40jjrx5.jpg
ETA
Here’s a little demonstration of the “practical accuracy” obtainable when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot. For this exercise, I used a 14.5” chrome lined, NATO chambered carbine. Shooting was done from the prone supported position. From a distance of 50 yards, I fired ten quick shots at an FBI “Q” target. The results . . . ten “bullets in the brain pan, squish!”
http://www.box.net/shared/static/nv963e2mj3.jpg
The 10-shot group has an extreme spread of 1.18”, which at 50 yards is equivalent to 2.26 MOA; far smaller than the 4 MOA dot on the Aimpoint. Again, this disproves the spouted nonsense that “practical accuracy” is not possible when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/vxqgt2bd2z.jpg
Remember, I have astigmatisms in both eyes, which make using an Aimpoint a bit of a challenge. I have no doubt, that someone with better eyesight could produce much better results.
Another example. I'll be the first person to state that I couldn’t do this on command; none the less, the 10-shot group pictured below was fired using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot at a distance of 100 yards. I used the same set-up described in the first part of this thread. This group has an extreme spread of 0.77".http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_big.gif
http://www.box.net/shared/static/z8qolr5j81.jpg
....
Uniform Tango 74
09-23-15, 14:56
HOTDAMN MOLON! That's some sick shooting. I'll be hitting the range tomorrow...8.5" SBR, crappy WPA 55gr ammo, Primary Arms MD-AD with 2 moa dot on the bench. Vids and pics will follow. Like I said, I doubt I'll have results as good as yours but it'll be an acceptable challenge.
Uniform Tango 74
09-23-15, 14:58
Personally Tango I'm a lot more impressed with someone who shoots 8" groups offhand at 100, but is willing to post pictures of their actual results than by some internet marksman who shoots "sub MOA all day" from behind his keyboard, but is never willing to post any actual targets.:D I'll be interested in your results.
I do think sub 2 MOA is possible with an Aimpoint assuming you have the right gun, the right ammo, the right target and the right shooter. Of course that's benched.
And I also agree with those posters who make the point that just because you once shot a 2" group at 100 yards, doesn't make you a 2MOA shooter, just as shooting one 5 shot .75 MOA group from the bench doesn't make your rifle a .75MOA rifle. Now if you can do it five times in a row, and are willing to post the targets to prove it, I'll be impressed.
I may have to put some SNIPEX through my barrel. LMAO!!!!
Fatorangecat
09-23-15, 16:06
You know not of what you speak.
Range Report: Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint
First and foremost, the Aimpoint red dot sight is a combat sight. Its primary purpose is for use in situations that require “reflexive shooting” at multiple targets, at close ranges. The Aimpoint excels in this type of shooting because it easily allows you to shoot with both eyes open and to focus on the target while shooting. All of my self-defense AR-15s have Aimpoints mounted on them. However, should the need arise (for example, making a head-shot on an aggressor at 100 yards who has most of his body behind hard cover) the Aimpoint sight is certainly up to the task of making precision shots.
There are those who claim that when using an Aimpoint sight with a four minute of angle dot, that it is not possible to shoot groups that are smaller than four minutes of angle in extreme spread. One such person has gone so far as to claim that groups shot from 100 yards using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot will be “greater than 4 inches. Usually much greater.” As we shall soon see, such statements are completely false.
To determine the level of precision obtainable when using an Aimpoint sight with a 4 MOA dot, I mounted an Aimpoint ML2 with a 4 MOA dot on one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s. This AR-15 is easily capable of producing consistent sub-MOA 10-shot groups at 100 yards when using a high magnification scope. Shooting with the Aimpoint sight was done from a bench-rest at a distance of 100 yards using NRA 200 yard High Power type targets scaled-down for 100 yards. (The aiming black is approximately the same width as a human head.) Sighting was done using the whole dot centered on the bullseye. Three 10-shot groups were fired in a row for evaluation.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/q9l5quki4y.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/qmpuquyrp1.jpg
Zeroing the Aimpoint sight at 100 yards was conducted during a down-pour with 20-25 mph winds. The first two 10-shot groups were also fired under these conditions. The first 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.41”.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/m97mctqy35.jpg
With another couple clicks of windage and elevation adjustment, the second 10-shot group had all shots going into the X-ring. The extreme spread for this group was 1.19”.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/sd5xfhre13.jpg
Just as quickly as the down-pour had started, the rain stopped, the winds died down and the sun began shining again. I posted a new and dry target on the 100 yard backer and continued shooting. The third 10-shot group had an extreme spread of 1.14”. The average extreme spread for all three of the 10-shot groups was 1.25”.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/vcm40jjrx5.jpg
ETA
Here’s a little demonstration of the “practical accuracy” obtainable when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot. For this exercise, I used a 14.5” chrome lined, NATO chambered carbine. Shooting was done from the prone supported position. From a distance of 50 yards, I fired ten quick shots at an FBI “Q” target. The results . . . ten “bullets in the brain pan, squish!”
http://www.box.net/shared/static/nv963e2mj3.jpg
The 10-shot group has an extreme spread of 1.18”, which at 50 yards is equivalent to 2.26 MOA; far smaller than the 4 MOA dot on the Aimpoint. Again, this disproves the spouted nonsense that “practical accuracy” is not possible when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/vxqgt2bd2z.jpg
Remember, I have astigmatisms in both eyes, which make using an Aimpoint a bit of a challenge. I have no doubt, that someone with better eyesight could produce much better results.
Another example. I'll be the first person to state that I couldn’t do this on command; none the less, the 10-shot group pictured below was fired using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot at a distance of 100 yards. I used the same set-up described in the first part of this thread. This group has an extreme spread of 0.77".http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_big.gif
http://www.box.net/shared/static/z8qolr5j81.jpg
....
I know a little of what I speak. I said it was mechanically possible but mounting a red dot on a Krieger barreled AR and nesting concentric dots inside each other for a point of aim is hardly a demonstration of practical accuracy, it's a demonstration of good marksmanship but it's not what I consider practical. I also think shooting sub 4 MOA with a 4 MOA dot is different than shooting sub 2 MOA with a 2 MOA dot. do you really think you could line up ten average shooters with M4's and Aimpoints and expect 1.5" groups? Is it mechanically possible....yes, is it a practical expectation....nope.
We need a postal shoot! We used to do those all the time over on surplusrifle.com. Weed out the keyboard commandos from the real shooters. :cool:
AR-15, iron sights or non-magnified RDS, standing off hand, no support, sling only. On a good day, I can put 8 out of 10 rounds into 4 MOA inside of 2 minutes.
Uniform Tango 74
09-24-15, 15:00
OK got back from the range and shot my 8.5" at 100 yards using WPA 55gr ammo. I got exactly what I thought I'd get. Nowhere near a 2 MOA group. I was on the bench using a range bag as a rest. No lead sled, no bipod, none of that fancy stuff. And to be honest, I wasn't completely stable but even then, I would not of gotten a 2 MOA group. I will post my vid up once it's uploaded to my youtube channel.
Uniform Tango 74
09-24-15, 15:32
Enjoy fellow shooters...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOctc2-2Wxw
UT 74 - uhh, that looks a lot like the type of 'road' that guys like me ride dirt bikes up at 70+ - any kills this mission? :)
Enjoy fellow shooters...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOctc2-2Wxw
Did you check your red dot mount? Your fundamentals looked fine and while Wolf isn't match ammo, I was expecting a better group when you went down range. I loc-tite everything and mark it with a paint pen to make sure nothing moves.
Thanks for the video UT74. I decided to do some experimentation myself today. Went to the range and, among other things shot 15 rounds of Wolf Gold into and SR-1 target. I was actually pleasantly surprised with the accuracy of this ammo. Definitely better than IMI xm193 I usually shoot. And it cost 30 cents a round delivered. Will try to post target, once I get in scanned, if I can figure out how to do it.
Shooting a 16" PWS upper (which is a great gun, but not a match barrel), attached to a Spikes Tactical lower I put together myself (basically stock, but with a RRA National Match trigger). Used a 3.5X ACOG and shot off a bench using a rear sandbag. Was able to get an extreme spread of approx. 2.5", which I was pretty happy with.
Also, just for fun, did a bunch of 5 shot strings off-hand, shooting at 10" plates, to see how I'd do, using same set up. I was averaging about 80% hits - i.e. 4 out of 5. This is pretty good for me (although admittedly I am not a great off-hand shooter). Sitting or prone with this set up I can get approx. 80% hits on 5" steel poppers at 100 yards.
Honorthecall81
09-24-15, 19:52
Enjoy fellow shooters...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOctc2-2Wxw
Sincerely thanks for taking time to make the video. Its awesome to
see someone have the courage just to put it all out there, and the
results come what may. I'm digging the humble attitude to boot.
Your doing what I was hoping to achieve with this thread. To see
real results and dissolve the claims of keyboard commandos. Again
thanks so much for the vid, and I applaud your efforts sir.
Uniform Tango 74
09-24-15, 19:57
UT 74 - uhh, that looks a lot like the type of 'road' that guys like me ride dirt bikes up at 70+ - any kills this mission? :)
Just dead paper tangos dude. LMAO!!!
Uniform Tango 74
09-24-15, 19:58
I would have expected better accuracy. A Garand with surplus HXP ball will do somewhat better.
I would post a picture of an offhand target I shot with a M1 Garand yesterday, but no one would know if I shot it at 10 yards or 100 yards.
Of course man.
Uniform Tango 74
09-24-15, 19:58
Sincerely thanks for taking time to make the video. Its awesome to
see someone have the courage just to put it all out there, and the
results come what may. I'm digging the humble attitude to boot.
Your doing what I was hoping to achieve with this thread. To see
real results and dissolve the claims of keyboard commandos. Again
thanks so much for the vid, and I applaud your efforts sir.
These are my results from my kit and my skillset. Naturally mileage will vary from person to person. It was my pleasure. I got a youtube channel to upkeep ya know? LOL!!!!
Uniform Tango 74
09-24-15, 20:00
Did you check your red dot mount? Your fundamentals looked fine and while Wolf isn't match ammo, I was expecting a better group when you went down range. I loc-tite everything and mark it with a paint pen to make sure nothing moves.
Yup. Everything is solid. I went back again and just got back in right now. Wanted to verify at 25 yards because I was in a hurry when I did the vid. I'm gtg.
Uniform Tango 74
09-24-15, 20:03
Thanks for the video UT74. I decided to do some experimentation myself today. Went to the range and, among other things shot 15 rounds of Wolf Gold into and SR-1 target. I was actually pleasantly surprised with the accuracy of this ammo. Definitely better than IMI xm193 I usually shoot. And it cost 30 cents a round delivered. Will try to post target, once I get in scanned, if I can figure out how to do it.
Shooting a 16" PWS upper (which is a great gun, but not a match barrel), attached to a Spikes Tactical lower I put together myself (basically stock, but with a RRA National Match trigger). Used a 3.5X ACOG and shot off a bench using a rear sandbag. Was able to get an extreme spread of approx. 2.5", which I was pretty happy with.
Also, just for fun, did a bunch of 5 shot strings off-hand, shooting at 10" plates, to see how I'd do, using same set up. I was averaging about 80% hits - i.e. 4 out of 5. This is pretty good for me (although admittedly I am not a great off-hand shooter). Sitting or prone with this set up I can get approx. 80% hits on 5" steel poppers at 100 yards.
I went back again this afternoon and just got back in. Went to reconfirm my zero at 25 yards and I was gtg. Yeah I was pinging the steel boar at 100 yards offhand effortlessly.
Sincerely thanks for taking time to make the video. Its awesome to
see someone have the courage just to put it all out there, and the
results come what may. I'm digging the humble attitude to boot.
Your doing what I was hoping to achieve with this thread. To see
real results and dissolve the claims of keyboard commandos. Again
thanks so much for the vid, and I applaud your efforts sir.
+1. Nice to see someone posting actual real world results, rather than all these 1 MOA shooters who must be shooting at imaginary targets with invisible bullets since they never seem able to back up their claims with photographic evidence.:)
Uniform Tango 74
09-24-15, 20:25
Yes!! Videos of shooting unsupported at 100! Now
we are on to something!
I got vids of that on my YT channel....the grouping is nowhere near sub-MOA status. But that's just me. LOL!!!
Fatorangecat
09-24-15, 21:21
+1. Nice to see someone posting actual real world results, rather than all these 1 MOA shooters who must be shooting at imaginary targets with invisible bullets since they never seem able to back up their claims with photographic evidence.:)
Exactly
BrigandTwoFour
09-24-15, 22:52
I am about a 2-4 MOA shooter from the prone and sitting positions under ideal conditions. That means I've been practicing, I'm in a good mood, I get to use my normal ADI 69gr SMK load, a shooting sling, and a 4x optic. Crossed ankle is my favorite of the traditional positions.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZHs2lsn9gng/VJiEZj9DSXI/AAAAAAAACKc/MM-6bgE5mhI/w634-h692-no/IMG_0215.JPG
This photo is from 25 meters (it's the only picture I have handy, since I practice a lot at 25) with a BCM 20" AR and a TR24G. The black is about 4" wide. As I move the target back to 100 meters, I expect my groups to expand to about 50-75% of the black.
This is another target at 100 meters with the same rifle and ammo. In this case, I was using an Atlas Bipod and an Elcan SpecterOS4X optic. This represents about the maximum I expect this rifle to do. I will not claim that I can produce groups like this consistently. This only serves as a point of reference.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-k6fe4zc9DU4/VTQK_uE9K8I/AAAAAAAAC5U/JBTmu0q23Tw/w540-h720-no/IMG_0359.JPG
I post these only to show that I do have a good grasp of the fundamentals. But from a standing position, I am a 12 MOA shooter on my best days. I find it very difficult to overcome the natural sway of the rifle. The traditional tricks of offhand, such as resting the support elbow on the crest of the hip bone, are difficult for me because I have a long torso. I am slowly working on bringing this down. Standing is hard.
BrigandTwoFour,
Try moving your support side elbow inboard, about halfway between the hip bone and navel. In most cases it will require you to point your toes at 2 O'clock instead of 3 O'clock.
If it is not windy, moving your support hand closer to your body helps as well. In a strong wind you have to move the support hand back out toward the muzzle.
Once you can shoot offhand under 5 MOA at 100 yards, you will see improvement in your other positions.
T2C
I use 2-3moa red dot scopes with no magnification on my rifles and hit 100 and 200 yard steel all day via offhand shooting. I'm a MOM kinda guy when it comes to my semi auto rifles. I leave the MOA stuff for bolt actions.
I was thinking the same thing. 2MOA red dot at 100 is covering 2.2 inches...some pretty good shots to keep it under 3 freehand or bagged.
6"-8"-10"12" steel plates are all Im concerned with out of my AimPoint topped carbines. When I drop the Luey on top with some handloads, well I can squeeze sub 2MOA pretty easy and right at 1MOA pretty regular...off of bags.
I fancy myself a pretty solid shooter, but clearly their is room for improvement after reading this thread.
Both targets below shot at 100yds, standing, resting upper body on truck hood, handguard rest on a bag, with Wolf Gold 55 grain ammunition.
Daniel Defense 16" pencil barrel upper, 10x magnification scope:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/25/631733128de547baa858289417d5a987.jpg
~2MOA
BCM 11.5" ELW fluted KMR upper, T1 2 MOA red dot optic:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/25/2a6bc61fde8a0f09b040261f14fad9f1.jpg
~4MOA
Conclusions: I shoot about twice as precisely when I can see the target well;)
Post it up. Shoot three consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards with your 2 MOA Aimpoint. The premise of my comment is that from the bench you can easily shoot smaller groups than what your sight system covers at that range. How much target does the front sight of a good bullseye pistol shooter cover? A whole bunch more than top shooter's group sizes. Hence their use of the "bullseye" hold. Using a black round target at 100 yds, you can center the dot on it and shoot groups smaller than the dot size if the shooter and the rifle are up to it.
All of this has been covered quite well by others in this thread.
The premise of my comment is that from the bench you can easily shoot smaller groups than what your sight system covers at that range. How much target does the front sight of a good bullseye pistol shooter cover? A whole bunch more than top shooter's group sizes. Hence their use of the "bullseye" hold. Using a black round target at 100 yds, you can center the dot on it and shoot groups smaller than the dot size if the shooter and the rifle are up to it.
All of this has been covered quite well by others in this thread.
I agree with Doug. A lot of people get hung up on the 2min dot will not not equal smaller than 2min groups. They fail to realize, that left alone, without human interaction, that is the point where every modern firearm with rifling is its best.
It is we the shooters, who blow out groups. That is why most people bag or sled their rifles to sight a long gun in. It reduces the human element on groupings...good triggers help us monkeys a good bit too.
For another datapoint, I've shot consistent 2" and a few 1.3" to 1.5" groups at 100 yds with a 4moa dot. I'll try off hand next time out. I usually shoot 50yds and in and go for hits not size
LMT 14.5 Federal XM193 55gr 5.56 fmj Aimpoint M2 (4Moa)
100 yards off bench sight-in target
50 yard target
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/Mobile%20Uploads/20141231_165003.jpg (http://s757.photobucket.com/user/SkiDevil01/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141231_165003.jpg.html)
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/Mobile%20Uploads/20141231_165738.jpg (http://s757.photobucket.com/user/SkiDevil01/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141231_165738.jpg.html)
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/Mobile%20Uploads/20141231_165633.jpg (http://s757.photobucket.com/user/SkiDevil01/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20141231_165633.jpg.html)
Honorthecall81
09-26-15, 07:31
I love the real world results guys. Keep it up! I'm gonna try to
put together a 100 yd off hand walk out video sometime soon.
Stay tuned.
Steyr Aug, Wolf Gold 55 grain FMJ, 100 yards, magazine/foregip supported over truck hood, Aimpoint PRO 2MOA.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/26/cf83b9c996909d7f6b99f745af42c4bb.jpg
Same as above using Magpul MBUS plastic flip up sights.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/26/5d9cc8ae5b04bd59135120b13f3c0844.jpg
I demonstrate vertical stringing when I use irons but windage is about as precise at the red dot. Honestly I can not keep the front sight totally in focus.
Same rifle ammo and red dot, standing, unsupported shooting at upper target:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/26/fcb572eae785d13695f354ee0a034c20.jpg
Pretty bad. A few rounds went over the top. Standing I appear to be a 10-12" shooter:(
Went back to supported with iron back up sights and hit ten for ten on the 8" plate 100 yds. Again demonstrates vertical stringing. Shooting speed is about a round/second.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/26/2e3ed30237f533259f2beb9a2d013b4e.jpg
Howdy,
Big difference between shooting offhand and even having an elbow support.
I've seen many, many people shoot 1" groups with their 30-06 deer rifle from a supported benchrest but not be able to hit a one gallon jug offhanded with the same rifle 5 minutes later.
Paul
556BlackRifle
09-26-15, 12:54
Steyr Aug, Wolf Gold 55 grain FMJ, 100 yards, magazine/foregip supported over truck hood, Aimpoint PRO 2MOA.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/26/cf83b9c996909d7f6b99f745af42c4bb.jpg
Same as above using Magpul MBUS plastic flip up sights.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/26/5d9cc8ae5b04bd59135120b13f3c0844.jpg
I demonstrate vertical stringing when I use irons but windage is about as precise at the red dot. Honestly I can not keep the front sight totally in focus.
Same rifle ammo and red dot, standing, unsupported shooting at upper target:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/26/fcb572eae785d13695f354ee0a034c20.jpg
Pretty bad. A few rounds went over the top. Standing I appear to be a 10-12" shooter:(
Went back to supported with iron back up sights and hit ten for ten on the 8" plate 100 yds. Again demonstrates vertical stringing. Shooting speed is about a round/second.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/26/2e3ed30237f533259f2beb9a2d013b4e.jpg
Edgy, thanks for posting your report. IMO you are probably a lot better shooter than you think you are. A little work and you'll be right where you want to be. Now imagine doing this after sprinting 100 yards and while under stress. It's not easy. That's why we need to practice shooting the way we will be shooting if SHTF ever happens.
Are we able to use a sling as support or nothing? No jacket, just a 2pt.
Here's one way to assess your accuracy for practical purposes.
Post up some torso targets at 100 yards and have at it from whatever shooting position you prefer.
In the real world, at 100 yards, you are probably going to have the time to shoot supported in some way, perhaps prone.
Shoot prone at the target, after running for 50 yards. Assess the results. If you have put rounds into center mass at that distance and under semi-stress you have done fine.
I'm unaware of any quasi-competent shooter who would not be able to put a lot of rounds into center mass at 100 from the bench, using even iron sights.
Red dot? Even better.
here's a couple real world groups from today.... not really 100 yards, or with an ar15 or red dot, but at least i wasn't on a bench!
really, just 3 rounds sitting in a lumpy cow pasture, cause i just can't sit very long anymore and i took FOREVER finding my natural point of aim and was pretty fatigued by the 3rd shot which i shanked horribly. It would have gone downhill from there, no doubt unless i took a break and relaxed for a while. pretty motivational. i need to stop shooting so much prone and practice positional more... especially for upcoming elk hunt. for me, that's kind of the key: how long do i have to get in position. and sometimes, even when i have all day, i lack the patience to try to adjust, and instead, just muscle it over, with predictable results below. with a long barrel and a 9" suppressor on the end, the horrible balance makes sitting, kneeling and standing all difficult because i'm using muscle to keep the muzzle out of the dirt and the longer it takes me to find NPA, the more i start shaking. shooting an AR with lead in the butt positional is a LOT easier.
anyway, here it is... 350 yards - 1st shot kinda looks like 2 impacts. 2nd shot is about 2" below it. 3rd shot... about 5" right. i knew it before the bullet got anywhere close to the target. ugh. then i backed up to 538 yards and shot a lot better prone.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/supermoon15-350ydsitting.jpg
1st 3 shots prone (technically off the bench haha): got a wind call on the 8" plate, then cleaned up the 6" and 4" plates. then next 3 shots went 3 for 3 on the 1 3/4" ruler. (close up below, same as in pic above)
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/supermoon15-538yd123.jpghttp://precisionmultigun.com/pics/supermoon15-538yd456.jpg
And now ask yourself to what effect those rounds would have on a typical human being's chest.
'nuff said.
Those who agonize over sub-MOA groups out of their battle rifles have lost touch with reality, IMVHO.
If you want to develop the ability to squeeze the most accuracy out of your center fire rifle, buy an air rifle and practice shooting offhand at 10 meters. CMP sells used Avanti air rifles for $114.95 shipped to your home. http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/air-rifles/sporter-air-rifles/ The long lock time of the air rifle forces you to focus on the basics of good marksmanship.
Are you going to fight with an air rifle, no? Will developing good offhand shooting discipline help you to improve in other aspects of shooting the rifle, absolutely.
If you want to develop the ability to squeeze the most accuracy out of your center fire rifle, buy an air rifle and practice shooting offhand at 10 meters. CMP sells used Avanti air rifles for $114.95 shipped to your home. http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/air-rifles/sporter-air-rifles/ The long lock time of the air rifle forces you to focus on the basics of good marksmanship.
Are you going to fight with an air rifle, no? Will developing good offhand shooting discipline help you to improve in other aspects of shooting the rifle, absolutely.
I grew up pinging soda cans tossed into a bayou with a single shot air rifle, pinging them about thirty feet away in the waves. Without realizing it, I was developing good trigger control and iron sight ability.
Much wisdom in this guy's comment. Your typical gun forum ninja will laugh it off, but ... you'd do well to listen.
here's a couple real world groups from today.... not really 100 yards, or with an ar15 or red dot, but at least i wasn't on a bench!
really, just 3 rounds sitting in a lumpy cow pasture, cause i just can't sit very long anymore and i took FOREVER finding my natural point of aim and was pretty fatigued by the 3rd shot which i shanked horribly. It would have gone downhill from there, no doubt unless i took a break and relaxed for a while. pretty motivational. i need to stop shooting so much prone and practice positional more... especially for upcoming elk hunt. for me, that's kind of the key: how long do i have to get in position. and sometimes, even when i have all day, i lack the patience to try to adjust, and instead, just muscle it over, with predictable results below. with a long barrel and a 9" suppressor on the end, the horrible balance makes sitting, kneeling and standing all difficult because i'm using muscle to keep the muzzle out of the dirt and the longer it takes me to find NPA, the more i start shaking. shooting an AR with lead in the butt positional is a LOT easier.
anyway, here it is... 350 yards - 1st shot kinda looks like 2 impacts. 2nd shot is about 2" below it. 3rd shot... about 5" right. i knew it before the bullet got anywhere close to the target. ugh. then i backed up to 538 yards and shot a lot better prone.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/supermoon15-350ydsitting.jpg
1st 3 shots prone (technically off the bench haha): got a wind call on the 8" plate, then cleaned up the 6" and 4" plates. then next 3 shots went 3 for 3 on the 1 3/4" ruler. (close up below, same as in pic above)
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/supermoon15-538yd123.jpghttp://precisionmultigun.com/pics/supermoon15-538yd456.jpg
Like Mel Gibson says... aim small miss small.
May I make a suggestion:
Get yourself some good paper targets that portray the human torso, real-life size. Put them out at 100 yards and they do a lot of experimentation and see how you do.
You won't regret any time you've spent trying to put rounds through the same hole at any distance, but ....
See how you do at 100 on a human target and you will quickly realize that precision shooting is great, but combat accuracy is ok too.
Of course man.
The black is 6-1/4". Practicing with air rifles is an effective training tool.
Honorthecall81
09-29-15, 21:54
So this pic was 50yds-ish. A combination of resting on a picnic
table and a few off-hand shots. I'm really gonna try to get a
video of 100yds. This was with a 4moa Aimpoint Comp M2
http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p774/grapplingtech77/image_zpskiqzjztq.jpeg (http://s1350.photobucket.com/user/grapplingtech77/media/image_zpskiqzjztq.jpeg.html)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7707/17369133255_3f1e3689e2_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ssRmbK)mk18 challenge 1 ontarget (https://flic.kr/p/ssRmbK) by splittiebus 66 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/96653819@N04/), on Flickr
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8689/17369134965_c152e25d43_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ssRmGe)Mk18 challenge 2 on target (https://flic.kr/p/ssRmGe) by splittiebus 66 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/96653819@N04/), on Flickr
mag monopod off table (leaning) mk18 w/ Aimpoint 2 MOA 100 yds. ZQI M855
You can flame me for the TOS targets, it was an informal little thing.
Alright, I'll post pic later. 100yds, standing. Sling from stock, over shoulder, aound back to front of gun, hand wrapped once around sling for tension.
1-4× on 4x.
Low ready, taking time, I'd be confident hitting a torso. I tried shooting a few strings and 3 and 4th shots would start coming off the paper from fatigue.
I need practice!
Good God, sorry mods, I hit report again. Looks like I need practice with cell-phoning as well, haha
I am only in my 40s and can barley see clay bird at 100 yds let alone hit it with irons. :-0. I can meek most shots in a 12" circle off hand at 100 yds. A little more that half that if I lean against a tree.
I know a little of what I speak. I said it was mechanically possible but mounting a red dot on a Krieger barreled AR and nesting concentric dots inside each other for a point of aim is hardly a demonstration of practical accuracy, it's a demonstration of good marksmanship but it's not what I consider practical. I also think shooting sub 4 MOA with a 4 MOA dot is different than shooting sub 2 MOA with a 2 MOA dot. do you really think you could line up ten average shooters with M4's and Aimpoints and expect 1.5" groups? Is it mechanically possible....yes, is it a practical expectation....nope.
Mechanically, it is the only way it is possible. If you put a 10MOA red dot on say a 20" AR of your choice, than vise that gun it will most likely do sub 2 MOA all day long and twice on sunday.
This topic has little to do with the optics and their respective MOA, but rather the inherent accuracy of the rifle.
Most mid range guns will never be outshot by their owners. Meaning the gun will out shoot the shooter if the shooters inabilities are taking away.
davidjinks
10-14-15, 21:57
Delete
Offhand is where matches are won/lost.
Jon
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