View Full Version : Glock Haters ... You Will Not Like This Story
So, Battlefield Las Vegas, where you can rent just about anything and shoot it to your credit card limit has posted their experiences with handgun reliability. They chew through nearly 200,000 pistol calibers rounds PER MONTH. Read that again, if you have no feinted. 200,000 rounds, per month.
Which handgun is consistently their most reliable and trouble-free handgun? Glock.
Specifically, the Glock 17
I can tell you that even though I am not a “Glock guy”, it is the most reliable handgun in our inventory and I would trust it with my life. We use Gen1-Gen4 17’s on the line and they are the most hassle-free handgun we have. I used my original Gen1 17 when we first opened two and a half years ago and it finally broke about six months ago. -
See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/16/handgun-experiences-from-battlefield-las-vegas/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss#sthash.IcQ5xPjx.dpuf
Having said this, his comments about HK are simply idiotic. But heh, it's his business and I'm sure 80% of the people that come through his store are too stupid or drunk to know the difference anyway. :)
'A customer had a KB with an S&W500. So we put him on an M134A before he left'. I suspect it's impossible to leave a place mad after firing a minigun, even if it's preceded by something like that.
'A customer had a KB with an S&W500. So we put him on an M134A before he left'. I suspect it's impossible to leave a place mad after firing a minigun, even if it's preceded by something like that.
I'd rather go to LV and visit this place than waste money on gambling.
If I'm going to blow money, I'd rather get a big "BANG" out of it.
:)
I read the thread on the other forum. While Glocks are the most reliable guns they use, you have to remember that there's many handguns that they do not keep in stock at the range.
I specifically remember him commenting about why he refuses to have any HK's. It was something about their stance on LEO and civilian sales. I don't remember the details of it, but that's besides the point.
It's good to hear that the Glocks are performing as they are, but it's too bad we can't see the results of other manufacture handguns under the same conditions.
Customers want what they see in movies, TV or video games.
We don’t use the M&P’s enough to give any valid information. -There isn’t a demand for them because they aren’t in video games,
Eurodriver
09-19-15, 19:24
We don’t use the M&P’s enough to give any valid information. -There isn’t a demand for them because they are garbage.
Agreed.
I'll enjoy the responses.
Making popcorn now.
:)
FlyingHunter
09-19-15, 19:46
Customers want what they see in movies, TV or video games.
Like a 6 shot revolver that can be fired 23 times before it needs reloading...
I'll enjoy the responses.
Making popcorn now.
:)
Why? Did you start the thread purposely to bait others?
Like Euro is (in)famous for, as seen above.
Glocks do not fit my hand properly so I don't particularly like them. I'll keep my Sigs.
Why? Did you start the thread purposely to bait others?
Like Euro is (in)famous for, as seen above.
You may have a point my friend.
One could read the article, if we can call it an article, as to say that glocks, while they may not break often, when they do the gun is pretty much going to go down in a very bad way that is not going to be field repairable.
"Glock’s pretty much are the only handgun that suffer a “catastrophic” break." As mentioned in the article.
Sig 226s and Beretta 92s the issues that they mention are both that I would argue come down to wear parts that should be replaced on a regular basis. Recoil springs, locking blocks, ect.
If anything, what we should all be taking from this article is that Glocks, Beretta, and Sig handguns are likely going to run more reliably than most of us need and run much longer than 98% of shooters will run their guns through. I mean how many shooters out there will run 10k through a handgun in 10 years? So why don't we stopping the meaningless dick measuring bullshit and learn to more effectively use the mother****er opposed to going "my gun is better than yours" since whatever minutia of performance increase you might be able to argue you can't utilize anyway because your skill level is shit.
As far as H&K goes I would kindly offer the owner of Battlefield LV speak with H&K CS in this day and age since his impressions seem to be circa 1990. At least in my experience. I have personally witnessed H&K go above and beyond in servicing customers guns, when they could have refused such service because the owner admitted to doing things that would of, and indeed likely should have voided the warranty, and instead replaced the guns no questions asked.
Anyway, that is my contribution for the night. I am going to have another drink and go do something constructive.
I thought it was interesting to read that they had a few select fire glocks but not factory G18. Is that legal?
There isn’t a demand for them because they aren’t in video games, not in enough movies and not in service by any armed forces
Comman Man disease to paraphrase Jeff Cooper.
I wish my Glock's fit my hand.
"I wish my Glocks it my hand"
What is the problem with your hands?
Glocks do not fit my hand properly so I don't particularly like them. I'll keep my Sigs.
This.
My wife's G19 is ok, good for her, but not my fave.
call_me_ski
09-19-15, 21:54
As far as H&K goes I would kindly offer the owner of Battlefield LV speak with H&K CS in this day and age since his impressions seem to be circa 1990. At least in my experience. I have personally witnessed H&K go above and beyond in servicing customers guns, when they could have refused such service because the owner admitted to doing things that would of, and indeed likely should have voided the warranty, and instead replaced the guns no questions asked.
Every time I have to call HK I know that I am in for a stellar interaction. No kidding, they have an excellent CS department. HK must have kicked a lot of peoples' dogs in the 1990s.
I thought it was interesting to read that they had a few select fire glocks but not factory G18. Is that legal?
Dealer sample?
This.
My wife's G19 is ok, good for her, but not my fave.
+1
I don't own a Glock; I don't hate them, I just have other handguns that suit me better.
I notice that most so-called "Glock Haters", at least all the ones I've spoken to, don't have any gripes or doubts about the gun's reliability or lifespan. It's usually just the features that don't fit the person; whether it's grip angle, trigger etc.
HansTheHobbit
09-19-15, 22:56
Okay, someone needs to rescue those poor gen 1 glocks. How dare he abuse them like that!
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-19-15, 23:22
Hard to take the guy and his reporting seriously after his comments about H&K. As pointed out above, his comments might of has the ring of truth if "Home Improvement" was the hot new must see TV.
Hard to take the guy and his reporting seriously after his comments about H&K. As pointed out above, his comments might of has the ring of truth if "Home Improvement" was the hot new must see TV.
I've read both his threads in their entirety (well I scan down to see the posts he has written, not much interested in the side arguments) - my take is he is being pretty evenhanded and honest about his operation and responsive to questions. He is a business man and doing so probably doesn't hurt his bottom line any.
Reference HK - I really hate being like this but I don't put them on the range. You can call it pride or ego issue but I hate having to purchase something from a company that I feel looks down upon regular (non-LEO) sales. The company's attitude, in MY opinion, almost feels that the American shooter is a pain in the ass and "reluctantly" sells them to us. That's MY opinion after years and years of being a buyer (bought my first HK91 in 1987).
When I was running our retail gun store we could never get spare parts and all the LEO that would stop by said the same thing. Granted, we have approximately 20+ MP5's at the range but a majority of those are US-made copies and they continue to run nearly three years later.
We do have some of the Paki and Turkish MP5 semi-auto pistol clones and they also run fine.
I will eventually have to purchase some but like I said, it's just my ego/pride that feels if you're too good for the US market.. then you must to be good for our store
He is merely reporting his opinion, which he clearly identifies several times - in the original thread the MY were capitalized and boldfaced by, I assume, him.
He has several time noted he wasn't going to mention specifics on some things because he didn't feel it would be fair to the manufacturer as the use he put them to is very far outside normal usage and mfgr suggested maintenance practices are not adhered to.
All in all, I think his comments have been useful and appropriate.
I am in general an HK fan boy, I was one of the ITD MP5 Master Instructors, but they pissed me off when they introduced those POS UMP's. Why? Oh. Why?
I often thought about somehow getting about 6 MP5's, a couple of railroad cars on a siding in the middle of nowhere and a mock up of the interior of the Iranian Embassy and making a fortune running "Walter Mitty Weekends - This Week Princes Gate/The Final Option"
M&P are garbage.
So, you're pulling that straight out of your rear orifice? That's what I thought.
Sent using Tapatalk for Android
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-20-15, 00:39
He is merely reporting his opinion, which he clearly identifies several times - in the original thread the MY were capitalized and boldfaced by, I assume, him.
I agree, it was definitely his opinion.
HansTheHobbit
09-20-15, 02:04
I've read both his threads in their entirety (well I scan down to see the posts he has written, not much interested in the side arguments) - my take is he is being pretty evenhanded and honest about his operation and responsive to questions. He is a business man and doing so probably doesn't hurt his bottom line any.
Reference HK - I really hate being like this but I don't put them on the range. You can call it pride or ego issue but I hate having to purchase something from a company that I feel looks down upon regular (non-LEO) sales. The company's attitude, in MY opinion, almost feels that the American shooter is a pain in the ass and "reluctantly" sells them to us. That's MY opinion after years and years of being a buyer (bought my first HK91 in 1987).
When I was running our retail gun store we could never get spare parts and all the LEO that would stop by said the same thing. Granted, we have approximately 20+ MP5's at the range but a majority of those are US-made copies and they continue to run nearly three years later.
We do have some of the Paki and Turkish MP5 semi-auto pistol clones and they also run fine.
I will eventually have to purchase some but like I said, it's just my ego/pride that feels if you're too good for the US market.. then you must to be good for our store
He is merely reporting his opinion, which he clearly identifies several times - in the original thread the MY were capitalized and boldfaced by, I assume, him.
He has several time noted he wasn't going to mention specifics on some things because he didn't feel it would be fair to the manufacturer as the use he put them to is very far outside normal usage and mfgr suggested maintenance practices are not adhered to.
All in all, I think his comments have been useful and appropriate.
I am in general an HK fan boy, I was one of the ITD MP5 Master Instructors, but they pissed me off when they introduced those POS UMP's. Why? Oh. Why?
I often thought about somehow getting about 6 MP5's, a couple of railroad cars on a siding in the middle of nowhere and a mock up of the interior of the Iranian Embassy and making a fortune running "Walter Mitty Weekends - This Week Princes Gate/The Final Option"
Unfortunately that's pretty much what all the LGSs I've talked to say about HK. I can say that people in Germany think civilians who own "tactical" guns need to have their heads examined, so their attitudes probably stem from that kind of environment. Most people in Germany even look down on their own military, so the people who work at HK are pretty enlightened as far as Europeans go. At least Western Europeans, lol.
The way I look at it, they don't think civilians should have "tactical" guns, yet they take our money all the same, as if their snobbish attitude somehow makes it okay. The stereotype that Western Europeans are self righteous is regrettably somewhat well founded. All I can say is God bless America.:cool:
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-20-15, 02:33
Whatever is going on deep in the hearts of German executives , HKUSA's CS is second to none and it has been for more than ten years. I hear more dumb crap, on average, at the LGS than the net, and that is saying something.
Eurodriver
09-20-15, 07:15
So, you're pulling that straight out of your rear orifice? That's what I thought.
Sent using Tapatalk for Android
Relax bro. It's just a brand of gun. Why so serious?
Plenty of threads on here about the failings of M&P with data. I would know, I made half of them. :)
Seems the only guys that like them sell them.
Relax bro. It's just a brand of gun. Why so serious?
Plenty of threads on here about the failings of M&P with data. I would know, I made half of them. :)
Seems the only guys that like them sell them.
Just so you know, people have come to expect it out of you & it has lowered the validity/credibility of your opinion down to basically zero.
You may gain some respect back if you start viewing things a little more objectively.
Perhaps it'll come with age.
Just some friendly advice. Take it or leave it.
glock its self i dont hate. i only own one and it was a bargain. it is the ONLY handgun i own with the safety in the trigger dont like that and never will. admit if that was all there is i would do different
Agreed.
I don't know about that...Mine have been dead solid perfect. But I've moved on from plastic striker stuff for now, I may revisit a M&P CORE or eventually a G40 MOS for a hunting gun. But for now my Shield is the last piece of plastic for conceal carry I'll ever need. I do have a Taurus g2 that I use on the Kayak and Bass boat, it stays in my tackle bags.
http://i.imgur.com/MkFKfLC.jpg
Eurodriver
09-20-15, 08:25
Just so you know, people have come to expect it out of you & it has lowered the validity/credibility of your opinion down to basically zero.
You may gain some respect back if you start viewing things a little more objectively.
Perhaps it'll come with age.
Just some friendly advice. Take it or leave it.
First, did you ever think that perhaps I do it for the fun? Sure, Glocks are better for me than M&P, but I don't care what gun people choose as long as it works for them if/when they ever need it. I for damn sure don't care what my "validity/credibility" is on an internet gun forum among people whose main basis for defending the M&P is that they dropped a ton of money into the platform. (Or they sell them)
Second, M&P guys make it easy to antagonize them. It's like a napoleon complex. No doubt you've seen this since you appear to follow my threads pretty well.
Lastly, you made a post months back about me always being "out to get you". Yet, I can recall several recent threads where you've done exactly that. How many M&Ps do you own? :cool:
This crap all originated on TOS. I take everything there as suspect, especially with some of the side information provided.
It is quite interesting to see the different angles people take out of this stuff. This is at least the 7th thread I have seen on this particular topic on various forums and the third I've seen on this site.
- Endurance
- gLoCk
- Piston (deleted thread)
Kind of funny everyone takes this stuff so seriously, when most of it is probably made up.
Shoot what you want, but at least shoot it and don't hate on others for shooting what they choose to shoot.
We need to stick together as there are enough people out there who hate ALL brands of firearms.
...Second, M&P guys make it easy to antagonize them. It's like a napoleon complex.
Not sure where you get that from.
How many M&Ps do you own? :cool:
I own as many FS M&Ps as I do FS Glocks. None of which are remotely stock. They both needed aftermarket parts to fulfill my needs and still, neither of which I've deemed "perfect" yet.
It's the whole Ford vs Chevy, Yamaha vs Suzuki, Polaris vs Arctic Cat argument. It's fun to banter between friends for about a minute. After that it gets old fast.
This is a discussion forum where people can discuss and/or ask questions about firearms and the like. When all you say is 'Glocks rule' & 'M&Ps suck', it devalues your opinion and makes others think you're only here to troll & bait.
Again, it was friendly advice. No harm/no foul.
As far as following your posts and being "out to get you", I've noticed that you always spell "editted" wrong. It's "edited". ;)
I can say that people in Germany think civilians who own "tactical" guns need to have their heads examined, so their attitudes probably stem from that kind of environment. Most people in Germany even look down on their own military, so the people who work at HK are pretty enlightened as far as Europeans go.
Tremendous oversimplification of German view of the military.
Remember, until recently every German male served mandatory national service at 18. While there was a longer civil option, most German males went through boot camp and has a better understanding of military things than US citizens do.
So its just like current serving GIs... They have no desire to play at tactical things, wear TAC gear, etc. Got it out of their system. With a current serving son, the last thing he wants to do is put on TAC gear when off duty. Still loves to shoot, just does not want to play Army in his spare time and has a disdain for some of the posers who do so. (You know, the Tactical Tommie's in head to toe 5.11 wearing dark glasses and 1911's in man purses at Walmart and Aunt Sue's 90th birthday party)
Add to that some inherent cultural guilt about nationalism and militarism as an artifact of their WW2 legacy. I worked for a German national when 9/11 hit. He had a hard time with the nationalistic pro-USA stuff, as to them that type of thing is heavily tied to the Nazi party and their dark years.
But he was entirely pro-US. And still proud to be a German, just commented that they are culturally influenced not to do big outward flag rallies out of fear it would lead back to their past. And a bit of shame.
But make no mistake, any German alive during the cold war remembers the Soviet threat, and who helped stand between them and the USSR.
So never confuse German disdain of civvies playing Army with disrespect for the military and specifically the US military
Eurodriver
09-20-15, 09:29
Well that's your problem. You didn't keep the Glocks stock ;) Had you done so, you would see that Glocks Rule!
I think you just have it out to get me because I can ride my bike to the beach on New Year's Eve in a t shirt with no lid and then go swimming when I get there.
Well that's your problem. You didn't keep the Glocks stock ;) Had you done so, you would see that Glocks Rule!
I think you just have it out to get me because I can ride my bike to the beach on New Year's Eve in a t shirt with no lid and then go swimming when I get there.
Yep, that's it... except I wear a helmet.
(You should try ice riding, btw. It's a blast!)
wildcard600
09-20-15, 11:52
My Hi-Points digest 2,000,000 rounds a day with no cleaning and no jams. Glocks are okay for low volume shooters though i suppose.
I agree, it was definitely his opinion.
Thanks for understanding what I meant!
It's the whole Ford vs Chevy, Yamaha vs Suzuki, Polaris vs Arctic Cat argument. It's fun to banter between friends for about a minute. After that it gets old fast.
True that is. Gets old fast.
As far as following your posts and being "out to get you", I've noticed that you always spell "editted" wrong. It's "edited". ;)
I thought pointing out speeling (intentional) errors was an internet faux pas. Minus TEN points for bad tiddlywink spirit.
HansTheHobbit
09-20-15, 15:52
Tremendous oversimplification of German view of the military.
Remember, until recently every German male served mandatory national service at 18. While there was a longer civil option, most German males went through boot camp and has a better understanding of military things than US citizens do.
So its just like current serving GIs... They have no desire to play at tactical things, wear TAC gear, etc. Got it out of their system. With a current serving son, the last thing he wants to do is put on TAC gear when off duty. Still loves to shoot, just does not want to play Army in his spare time and has a disdain for some of the posers who do so. (You know, the Tactical Tommie's in head to toe 5.11 wearing dark glasses and 1911's in man purses at Walmart and Aunt Sue's 90th birthday party)
Add to that some inherent cultural guilt about nationalism and militarism as an artifact of their WW2 legacy. I worked for a German national when 9/11 hit. He had a hard time with the nationalistic pro-USA stuff, as to them that type of thing is heavily tied to the Nazi party and their dark years.
But he was entirely pro-US. And still proud to be a German, just commented that they are culturally influenced not to do big outward flag rallies out of fear it would lead back to their past. And a bit of shame.
But make no mistake, any German alive during the cold war remembers the Soviet threat, and who helped stand between them and the USSR.
So never confuse German disdain of civvies playing Army with disrespect for the military and specifically the US military
Dude, I lived it. Part of what you say is true, but at the core of it most of them are liberal idealists, the same as what you find here in certain parts of the US. You can sugar coat it all you want, but at the core of it they just don't believe in an inherent right to self defense. Most are purple hat wearing pacifists. It's just the standard socialist mentality, let the state do your violence for you so you can claim some superior morality over free men, i.e. Americans. Socialists think they're so enlightened because they don't believe in violence, yet they won't hesitate to call the police and their guns if they need them. Don't get me wrong, I love the Germans, I have to lol, but I'll be the first to admit that the German sociopolitical condition is completely backwards. We can thank nearly a hundred years of socialist brainwashing for that.
So this is where HK is getting its dogma from. Guns are for the military, not for naughty civilians like us. That mentality is so deeply ingrained that it's anathema to believe otherwise. It's one of the major reasons I don't think I would go back right now. There were two times in Germany that I came really close to needing a gun, and I've basically decided that I'm not willingly going to go unarmed ever again.
"I wish my Glocks it my hand"
What is the problem with your hands?
They're not square.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-20-15, 16:10
So this is where HK is getting its dogma from.
Over the years H&K has brought in a wider selection of "weapons of war" than just about any other manufacturer. They imported Hk91s, Sp89s, Hk93s, etc. Then Bush banned the import in 89. They started modifying the guns and then they were banned. They started importing the USP in 93 and the next year there was a mag-ban. Then the German Govt started restricting what they could export. Then they set up a satellite factory in the United States so they could partially manufacture and assemble 416/417s here. They did this to avoid the import ban here (still in effect) and the weapons of war regulations in Germany. They bring in a wide selection of military and police style pistols. They are selling a civilian version of pretty much everything they can other than their belt fed, automatic grenade launcher, submachine gun and pdw offerings--despite the witches' brew of regulations and the fact that H&K is a small company.
Over the years H&K has brought in a wider selection of "weapons of war" than just about any other manufacturer. They imported Hk91s, Sp89s, Hk93s, etc. Then Bush banned the import in 89. They started modifying the guns and then they were banned. They started importing the USP in 93 and the next year there was a mag-ban. Then the German Govt started restricting what they could export. Then they set up a satellite factory in the United States so they could partially manufacture and assemble 416/417s here. They did this to avoid the import ban here (still in effect) and the weapons of war regulations in Germany. They bring in a wide selection of military and police style pistols. They are selling a civilian version of pretty much everything they can other than their belt fed and pdw offerings--despite the witches' brew of regulations and the fact that H&K is a small company.
Quit making so much sense Mr. Bell. We need emotions, "Hyper Bowl" and supposition laced with anecdotes.
BTW: You left it the SL-8, UMP and likely a few others that I'm not thinking of on a Sunday afternoon.
HansTheHobbit
09-20-15, 16:25
Over the years H&K has brought in a wider selection of "weapons of war" than just about any other manufacturer. They imported Hk91s, Sp89s, Hk93s, etc. Then Bush banned the import in 89. They started modifying the guns and then they were banned. They started importing the USP in 93 and the next year there was a mag-ban. Then the German Govt started restricting what they could export. Then they set up a satellite factory in the United States so they could partially manufacture and assemble 416/417s here. They did this to avoid the import ban here (still in effect) and the weapons of war regulations in Germany. They bring in a wide selection of military and police style pistols. They are selling a civilian version of pretty much everything they can other than their belt fed and pdw offerings--despite the witches' brew of regulations and the fact that H&K is a small company.
Like I said, they have no problem taking our money. But it's common knowledge that they've developed a reputation for looking down their noses at their civilian customers.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-20-15, 16:26
Yeah, those guns were brought in crippled up just to sell us something. They were forced to do silly crap like paint them less threatening colors to avoid German regulations. Apparently even the Steyr Scout's (a bolt action with EVIL built in bipod) was forced to come in grey to avoid euro-saftey regulators (which was hilarious because soon thereafter pictures of soldier's in Bosnia with grey Scouts started popping-up.
And Hans, as far as the reputation they have developed, I don't deny that people keep repeating these things, I am denying that they are true.
HansTheHobbit
09-20-15, 16:39
Yeah, those guns were brought in crippled up just to sell us something. They were forced to do silly crap like paint them less threatening colors to avoid German regulations. Apparently even the Steyr Scout's (a bolt action with EVIL built in bipod) was forced to come in grey to avoid euro-saftey regulators (which was hilarious because soon thereafter pictures of soldier's in Bosnia with grey Scouts started popping-up.
And Hans, as far as the reputation they have developed, I don't deny that people keep repeating these things, I am denying that they are true.
That's fine. I've just heard enough stories to know that HK isn't a company I want to support. I try to buy only from companies that have strong views regarding gun rights, who cater to the civilian market. Look, the reality of the situation is that the US civilian market keeps gun companies in business. Without us, gun companies would need government subsidies to stay in business. Just because they grudgingly sell guns to civilians doesn't mean they have the proper respect for the American market. It just means they like to eat.
Here educate yourself.......a bit.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/02/hk-hate-you-import-export-laws-vs-people/
What else is interesting about this position paper? Well, of the manufacturers, trade groups, and so on that received letters from ATF seeking their input, exactly one company made an active attempt to stop what they saw coming. This manufacturer placed an advertisement in Shotgun News, attesting to how useful their firearms were for various sporting purposes, and encouraged owners of their firearms to write ATF with accounts of how they use their products as sporting arms. Which manufacturer was this?
HK.
Wow, it seems HK hate is an even stronger disturbance in the Force than Glock hate.
:)
LOL
HansTheHobbit
09-20-15, 19:37
This is getting ridiculous. HK has developed a reputation for being snobs towards civilians. Is it unfounded? Possibly. Have they changed? Possibly. But you don't develop that kind of reputation for no good reason IMHO. Everybody is going to rub someone the wrong way, but when you develop a reputation over years throughout an entire industry, then that's a pretty good indication that the reputation is well deserved, good or bad. So I will spend my money elsewhere.
Yes you are being ridiculous. Read the material posted.
HansTheHobbit
09-20-15, 19:51
Yes you are being ridiculous. Read the material posted.
What is your capacity with HK? I would have expected a little more professionalism from you.
Can we PLEASE keep this discussion about the arguments, facts, sundry items in question, and not about each other? It's a prerequisite if one is to have a seat at the adult table and no one wants to read another derailed shitshow on this forum.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-20-15, 21:12
What he said. Let's all be civil. Hell, this isn't even a particularly interesting thing to argue about.
How about that Fireclean?!...lol!
How about that Fireclean?!...lol!
Shit just got real.
No, but really. It's awesome to see those pistols go upwards of 100k and still keep going. That's over $20,000 in ammo alone. I'd say that you got your money's worth out of the Glock.
About the Hk thing.....the guy who wrote the article doesn't like Hk, so what?
They did this to avoid the import ban here (still in effect) and the weapons of war regulations in Germany.
You got it mostly right, except Germany part. All firearms they sale on civilian market, even if "Made in USA" must comply with German regulations on sporting weapons. SL-8 does, MR556 does, MR762 does, HK 293 S will (HK already have license to sell those on US market form German BKA). That is why I do not see "fatory SBR" from HK USA any time soon. They actually applied to BKA for HK 243 S and HK 293 S in barreler as short as 9", but BKA refused for "lack of sporting purpose". As short as they can make are 14.5", they will not license for less.
About the Hk thing.....the guy who wrote the article doesn't like Hk, so what?
So his previous opinions on HK rifles in previous "report" can be seen in, lets say, new light.
As usual politicians have to fvck with both liberty and the free market and the world pays the price.
Appreciate the insight montrala
Wow, that is just a hard 'article' to read, from a logical English language standpoint.
Coal Dragger
09-21-15, 15:59
Interesting article, but I have a hard time taking it too seriously given the author's biases. For example his hatred of HK, which he expressed in this article on handguns, and in his AR-15 piece.
I know HK used to have a bad reputation for customer service. I knew an HK dealer from that time that hated dealing with HK, but did it anyway because of the product quality. Times change, and so do companies.
HK may not like the fact that US civilian sales are a big chunk of what pays the bills these days, but they're damn sure aware of it. So they've changed their customer service model accordingly. With the German govt' continuing to be more and more obnoxious towards their arms makers how long will it be before HK is making almost everything in the US? SIG Sauer is going that route, I'll bet HK will not be far behind, the German government will leave them little choice.
WickedWillis
09-21-15, 17:17
The main guy for TFB is insanely arrogant in his videos. I really don't care for people that pass their opinions off as facts.
What is your capacity with HK? I would have expected a little more professionalism from you.
I am not affiliated with HK in any way and have never claimed to be associated at any time. My comment was not intended to offend, I simply wanted you to read the posted material. I've been told I can be quite direct, I trust others opinions.
I am a US veteran, firearms enthusiast, who owns a fair number of rifles and pistols who shoots them, as time allows.
I own a number of HK rifles and pistols, but they are not the sole extent of my interests and don't even represent a majority of the firearms I own and enjoy.
brickboy240
09-22-15, 10:16
This story does not surprise me in the least.
We have an older local range that leases guns and they also say that the Gen 2 and 3 G17 and G19s have been the most trouble free of all the guns they rent out. Their rental Glocks look absolutely terrible but the guys working there say they are totally reliable.
So nope...I don't doubt that story at all and it is one reason I will never ditch my 2nd gen G17 or my 3rd gen G19. They just flat out run and give little trouble.
HansTheHobbit
09-22-15, 10:48
This story does not surprise me in the least.
We have an older local range that leases guns and they also say that the Gen 2 and 3 G17 and G19s have been the most trouble free of all the guns they rent out. Their rental Glocks look absolutely terrible but the guys working there say they are totally reliable.
So nope...I don't doubt that story at all and it is one reason I will never ditch my 2nd gen G17 or my 3rd gen G19. They just flat out run and give little trouble.
Hopefully the gen 5 will be as reliable as the gen 2 and older gen 3s.
brickboy240
09-22-15, 10:57
Wasn't the only thing that plagued the Gen 4 guns was the 9mm versions kicking brass to the face?
I am pretty sure the powers that be at Glock are well aware of this problem by now.
Any word on when a Gen 5 Glock is due out or what models will be first? I have not heard anything about this yet.
I can also believe the G17 story because my own gen 2 G17 that I bought in 1996 is still running along just fine. I swapped the recoil spring for a newer one a few years ago but to this day...I can honestly not remember this pistol jamming or giving any troubles. Some sort of miracle...but I believe it because I have lived it. This also makes it hard for me to buy an newer one! LOL
HansTheHobbit
09-22-15, 11:24
Wasn't the only thing that plagued the Gen 4 guns was the 9mm versions kicking brass to the face?
I am pretty sure the powers that be at Glock are well aware of this problem by now.
Any word on when a Gen 5 Glock is due out or what models will be first? I have not heard anything about this yet.
I can also believe the G17 story because my own gen 2 G17 that I bought in 1996 is still running along just fine. I swapped the recoil spring for a newer one a few years ago but to this day...I can honestly not remember this pistol jamming or giving any troubles. Some sort of miracle...but I believe it because I have lived it. This also makes it hard for me to buy an newer one! LOL
The problem was limited to late gen3 and gen4 9mm and .40 as far as I could tell. After researching all the material on it, I theorize that MIM was to blame. There was a guy on one forum who took detailed measurements of the MIM extractors and claimed that they were not as consistent as the machined ones. That's just one guy on the internet, though.
brickboy240
09-22-15, 11:31
Yes...I had one of those brass to face 3rd gen G19s. However, an Apex extractor totally made the problem go away.
If Glock would fix this and ditch the finger grooves...all will be well in Glock Land! LOL
HansTheHobbit
09-22-15, 11:39
I hope MIM goes away permanently. I know the story, and I'm probably going to catch a lot of flak for this, but I've never seen MIM do anything good for any gun. Everybody always says MIM must be great because Wilson used it. Well, Wilson used it for a short time in their lower cost 1911s, and now they don't anymore. I wouldn't call that a success story. I would also venture to guess that those MIM parts were either hand fitted or non critical, as every critical part in a custom 1911 is hand fitted. So Wilson probably saw more success with MIM than any mass producer ever would. Like I said, I know the story about how MIM is more precise than CNC, but I just don't buy into it.
brickboy240
09-22-15, 11:46
Depends on where MIM is put.
I don't think a MIM mainspring housing on a 1911 is terrible. I get queasy thinking about MIM on a hammer, slide stop or extractor.
Besides, how much more IS it to put a MIM extractor in the new Glocks vs. a machined one? If it made the new Glock cost 10 bucks more...but the thing ran like the Gen 2 guns..wouldn't you pay it without a whimper? I think most people would.
Customers want what they see in movies, TV or video games.
We don’t use the M&P’s enough to give any valid information. -There isn’t a demand for them because they aren’t in video games,
But Sam Jackson uses one in the Marvel movies! And many people use them in the TV show Agents of SHIELD (which makes sense).
HansTheHobbit
09-22-15, 12:03
Depends on where MIM is put.
I don't think a MIM mainspring housing on a 1911 is terrible. I get queasy thinking about MIM on a hammer, slide stop or extractor.
Besides, how much more IS it to put a MIM extractor in the new Glocks vs. a machined one? If it made the new Glock cost 10 bucks more...but the thing ran like the Gen 2 guns..wouldn't you pay it without a whimper? I think most people would.
Amen to that!
Wasn't the only thing that plagued the Gen 4 guns was the 9mm versions kicking brass to the face?
I am pretty sure the powers that be at Glock are well aware of this problem by now.
Any word on when a Gen 5 Glock is due out or what models will be first? I have not heard anything about this yet.
I can also believe the G17 story because my own gen 2 G17 that I bought in 1996 is still running along just fine. I swapped the recoil spring for a newer one a few years ago but to this day...I can honestly not remember this pistol jamming or giving any troubles. Some sort of miracle...but I believe it because I have lived it. This also makes it hard for me to buy an newer one! LOL
Gen 2 guns give some people BTF as well.
There is no Gen 5. And if there was, you people would be complaining about it anyway.
BuzzinSATX
09-22-15, 12:30
Hopefully the gen 5 will be as reliable as the gen 2 and older gen 3s.
I went to TOS and read all posts in the thread. Ron, the range owner, said that the Gen 4 Glocks (17's) were the most reliable pistols in his business. He said he wasn't't a "Glock Guy", and preferred a Sig 226, but he said even his personal Gen1 G17 he put into the business went for over 2.5 years being rented almost daily.
Main issue with the Glocks was a slide failure around 200k rounds. But he also said that even with a cracked slide, the gun kept running, but shots pulled high and left.
He also mentioned how he was amazed by the longevity of the recoil springs, but ultimately they decide to change them periodically to help save wear and tear I the slides.
Also noteworthy, he said Glock replaces his broken slides for free.
Finally, he said they run a lot of rounds through Advantage Arms .22 conversion kits on G17's and they too run flawlessly. He said it wasn't ammo sensitive, but they only use copper plated rounds, typically Remington.
I felt it was really a great read.
Take Care,
Buzz
HansTheHobbit
09-22-15, 12:36
I went to TOS and read all posts in the thread. Ron, the range owner, said that the Gen 4 Glocks (17's) were the most reliable pistols in his business. He said he wasn't't a "Glock Guy", and preferred a Sig 226, but he said even his personal Gen1 G17 he put into the business went for over 2.5 years being rented almost daily.
Main issue with the Glocks was a slide failure around 200k rounds. But he also said that even with a cracked slide, the gun kept running, but shots pulled high and left.
He also mentioned how he was amazed by the longevity of the recoil springs, but ultimately they decide to change them periodically to help save wear and tear I the slides.
Also noteworthy, he said Glock replaces his broken slides for free.
Finally, he said they run a lot of rounds through Advantage Arms .22 conversion kits on G17's and they too run flawlessly. He said it wasn't ammo sensitive, but they only use copper plated rounds, typically Remington.
I felt it was really a great read.
Take Care,
Buzz
To my knowledge, none of the Glocks were ever thought to be unreliable. Even the gen 4s that threw brass directly at the face were always said to be reliable. It's just annoying to have your brass flying all over the place.
BuzzinSATX
09-22-15, 13:25
To my knowledge, none of the Glocks were ever thought to be unreliable. Even the gen 4s that threw brass directly at the face were always said to be reliable. It's just annoying to have your brass flying all over the place.
I didn't say they were. All I was doing was referring to his post on TOS, not the snippets in the article.
Yes, I had a G26 gen 4 that had BTF issues. It sucked until I replaced the RSA. No issues since.
Take Care,
Buzz
This.
My wife's G19 is ok, good for her, but not my fave.
The Glock 19 does not fit a lot of peoples hand. Almost every student that comes through one of our high round count classes goes home with a blister on the knuckle of their middle finger. I show them mine that has had a grip reduction and undercut trigger guard and it is like holding a totally different gun. I was going to get rid of it until I found the smith that could reduce the grip and fit it to my hand.
brickboy240
09-22-15, 13:29
True.
My late gen 3 G19 always shot, fed and ejected...it never jammed. But being hit in the forehead 2-3 times per 15rd mag was jarring to say the least. I could imagine being hit square in the forehead during the first shot of a defensive situation and how that could be problematic.
However, kudos to Apex because those guys really got on top of the problem and their extractors cured this problem for many people (not everyone but lots).
I was considering trying another platform in the near future after this problem...even though I got it solved and thousands of rounds later..it has not shown up again. I looked at the VP-9, PPQ and the SIG P320 but I am just spoiled to the Glock's platform. It is tons easier to get holsters, spare mags and lots of accessories for a G19 or G17. Those others....not so much. You get spoiled to that and it is hard to change platforms. Especially when you already have tons of G19 and G17 mags and good holsters for both.
In the end...I might just roll the dice on a new Gen 4 G17. Chances are...it will run fine and if it does not, the fixes are easier than on 99% of other pistols.
HansTheHobbit
09-22-15, 13:35
The Glock 19 does not fit a lot of peoples hand. Almost every student that comes through one of our high round count classes goes home with a blister on the knuckle of their middle finger. I show them mine that has had a grip reduction and undercut trigger guard and it is like holding a totally different gun. I was going to get rid of it until I found the smith that could reduce the grip and fit it to my hand.
I'm still hoping to get brave enough one day to do a grip reduction on my g19. I've practiced stippling some pmags, so I've got that part down. It's the business with the resin and dremel tool that has me nervous.
I have over 10,000 rds. thru my 4 different gen -4 glocks all completely stock guns never been hit in the face by brass or had any issues of any kind. Not a fanboy do not really like glocks but they sure work
HansTheHobbit
09-22-15, 16:53
I have over 10,000 rds. thru my 4 different gen -4 glocks all completely stock guns never been hit in the face by brass or had any issues of any kind. Not a fanboy do not really like glocks but they sure work
I haven't shot a glock that much. But if I get 10,000 rounds through my new g19 then I will officially be a fanboy! Heck, at that point I might have glock tattooed inside a heart on my arm. :lol:
The Glock 19 does not fit a lot of peoples hand. Almost every student that comes through one of our high round count classes goes home with a blister on the knuckle of their middle finger. I show them mine that has had a grip reduction and undercut trigger guard and it is like holding a totally different gun. I was going to get rid of it until I found the smith that could reduce the grip and fit it to my hand.
This is my biggest complaint about the Glocks, is the trigger guard undercut - or lack thereof. I haven't grown the nads yet to grind mine (especially since my work-horse G17 is an RTF2 and I don't want to jack-up the frame beyond normal use), but that's one reason I don't run my Glocks in high round-count classes. Everything else I am fine with... gen3, gen4, etc... I can make them work fine. But that trigger guard starts to get annoying after a while.
brickboy240
09-23-15, 10:14
Grind baby grind....you will love it with a little cut in the underside of the guard! Seriously.
To this day...I now have close to 5000 rounds through my G19 with the Apex extractor and "brass to face" has yet to show its ugly head again.
Solved? Well...now I think so and I have chosen to carry this pistol.
Glad that a 60 dollar part and 15 minutes on the kitchen table solved this problem. Try that with your 1911 or any other polymer striker pistol.
I have looked around and sorry...I think I am just going to stick to the Glock platform. It is just too easy to work on, get parts for and mags and holsters versus the PPQ, VP-9, M&P9 or the SIG P320. Some of those others WERE interesting...but not worth the whole mess of changing over...sorry.
BuzzinSATX
09-23-15, 11:09
Grind baby grind....you will love it with a little cut in the underside of the guard! Seriously.
To this day...I now have close to 5000 rounds through my G19 with the Apex extractor and "brass to face" has yet to show its ugly head again.
Solved? Well...now I think so and I have chosen to carry this pistol.
Glad that a 60 dollar part and 15 minutes on the kitchen table solved this problem. Try that with your 1911 or any other polymer striker pistol.
I have looked around and sorry...I think I am just going to stick to the Glock platform. It is just too easy to work on, get parts for and mags and holsters versus the PPQ, VP-9, M&P9 or the SIG P320. Some of those others WERE interesting...but not worth the whole mess of changing over...sorry.
This is pretty much my story as well. With Glock, I get a decent enough trigger, mags are relatively cheap, more so now that Magpul is making them, most parts are interchangeable, CS is solid, accessories are plentiful, and guns are reliable.
I shape the trigger guard with a dremmel, add sights and ammo, and I'm good to go.
Take Care,
Buzz
brickboy240
09-23-15, 11:19
That was my reason.
I looked hard...very hard, at the VP-9, PPQ and P320.
What I found was on some of these, the mags were much more pricey and on some, mags were harder to find. Others did not have Raven Phantom holsters available (which is what I run my Glocks in and love them). Others had limited sight choices and other limits on accessories.
So even with a few possible warts...the Glock platform is still the most viable.
Sure, the PPQ had a better trigger and the VP-9 could be altered with grip panels easier than a Glock but those features were simply not enough to warrant a change. Mags on the VP-9 and PPQ are higher than Glocks and harder to find. Especially when you factor in the new Magpul mags.
To swap sizes on the P320, you have to spend nearly 400 bucks for all the conversion parts. Again...not worth it. No Raven Phantom holster for this model...another strike.
These alternatives were interesting but not attractive enough to switch.
The Glocks also fit my hands well enough for me to group decently and use them as they come.
In the end, for me, it is just easier to stick with the platform I am used to and already have sight, accessory and holster options for.
YMMV....
If anything, what we should all be taking from this article is that Glocks, Beretta, and Sig handguns are likely going to run more reliably than most of us need and run much longer than 98% of shooters will run their guns through. I mean how many shooters out there will run 10k through a handgun in 10 years? So why don't we stopping the meaningless dick measuring bullshit and learn to more effectively use the mother****er opposed to going "my gun is better than yours" since whatever minutia of performance increase you might be able to argue you can't utilize anyway because your skill level is shit.
Thank you Kain, well said.
The useless "fanboy" crap really needs to go away.
Interesting info in the article for sure, but as usual with these type of things, the info will be cherry picked to fuel personal agendas. Most folks will never consume that much ammo in a lifetime of shooting spread over multiple firearms, much less a single handgun.
As stated, I do find the article interesting. But, for me, the "data" will have very little effect on what I chose to carry, if any.
BuzzinSATX
09-23-15, 14:32
What I got from the two articles (one in ARs and one on pistols) was motivation to read the original threads on TOS, and I did...but rather than reading every post, I read every post from "Ron", the guy who owned Henderson Tactical (the range). He had a TON of good info that came across without emotion. He fielded many board questions with "let me check with my armorers/RSO's and I'll get back with you" and later came back with great details. While my guns will never see the use/abuse their range guns get, I was intrigued by the observations he had based on many platforms firing hundreds of thousands of rounds per month with much consistency from ammo, mags, cleaning/maintenance schedules, and standard procedures.
Also, it's a business that needs to make money. His model is a shooter experience with movie/video game guns with real world ammo. All guns/ammo is supplied in house. Mags and loaded/inserted by Staff. Customer base is Las Vegas tourists on vacation with cash to burn on fun. Good vendors who reliably supply quality ammo/parts/guns are key. If a customer gets two FTF/FTE's in a magazine, they are given an extra loaded mag, which cuts into profits. No time or money to be a "fanboy" of anything other than quality and reliability.
Specifically, things he said that really stood out to me were:
AMMO: They went through hundreds of thousands of rounds per month. Their favorite manufacturers/suppliers were Magtech and PPU. Reliable, clean, consistent, and had good power for all platforms. They also delivered on all orders. They had issues with Federal, both with ammo (dirty) and the company who would drop pending orders when ammo surges drove prices up and re-price the order at the new, higher level.
PMAGS: like Iraqguns says, mags are not forever. Their experience was GI mags last longest. But all PMAGs that eventually cracked or broke were REPLACED no questions asked by Magpul. So KUDOs to Magpul!!! I'll keep buying PMAGS.
S&W: a .500 S&W wheel gun blew up..literally, in a customers hands. Saw pics of the gun in several big pieces. Amazed no one was physically hurt, but the range comped the shooter with additional mags of fun in some full auto arms. They were shooting factory Magtech ammo, which shot fine in their other .500's. Took several conversations back and forth to S&W to even accept the firearm back. I cannot remember exactly how it was resolved, but it left me with another level of "why???" for S&W, even though the poster wasn't actually badmouthing the company. You'd have to read his post to get your own impressions.
Glock: They generally ran until their frames cracked at 200k rounds. Then, slides were sent back to Glock who replaced them under warranty, no questions asked.
CLP: Due to HAZMAT issues, cleaners and lube is an issue and selection is based as much on environmental regs & laundry contracts as much as performance. They lube guns daily, more as needed, and clean based on schedules. They don't have manpower to do the whole "special treatment thing", so their preferred lube was Slip2000. They received a case of Lucas Gun Oil for trial and the RSO's loved it because it sprayed much less oil when first shot than Slip. Less spray = happy customers = bigger tips. Both oils performed well when used properly. Cleaning is primarily Simple Green in ultrasonic parts cleaners.
.22's: I always stayed away from .22 conversion kits, but based on his feedback on the Advantage Arms kits for Glocks running great on any copper plates ammo (what I usually buy), I plan to buy a kit for my G19 in the near future.
AR's: they pretty much ran DD and LMT exclusively. Both companies provided great support for parts and warranty issues. He recently bought some Colt 6920's and will let the board know how they hold up. He mentioned having some Colt SBR's that ran flawlessly, which is why they bought the 6920's.
Again, this isn't some typical range that rents guns...they sell shooting entertainment with cool guns and lots of ammo. They stay busy and go through pallets of ammo...and they learn fast what works and what doesn't. Much info was stuff I didn't need, but was very interesting nonetheless.
Take Care,
Buzz
Good summary Buzz! Thanks. I also visited the other sites and read everything, cut and pasted some stuff into an 'info handout.'
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