View Full Version : Sig 556 series: Fixable or fundimentally flawed?
BoringGuy45
09-21-15, 23:42
The Sig 550 series has always been my unicorn gun. However, unless the import laws are changed and I get more money (two things I'm not betting on anytime soon), I'll never get my hands on a real one. I know the true Swiss 550 series guns are considered by many to be among the best rifles in the world. On the other hand, the American 556 series, and the 551A1 series for that matter, despite being based on the Swiss rifles, are considered by most here to be below average at best. I played around with a 556 and I liked the feel and concept of it, but for a rifle with quality below that of a good AR and a price above that, there's no way I could justify buying one. Even the "improved" 556xi is getting hammered here, on TOS, and by most reviewers.
My question is: Is the problem the quality control and materials used? If Sig paid the same amount of attention to the quality of their rifles that, say, BCM did to their ARs, could it potentially be just as high quality as the Swiss 550 series? Or is the design itself too flawed to ever be viable as even a range gun? If it could be fixed, what would need to be done to make it a better design?
This is just a question out of pure curiosity and speculation. :)
I think the big thing would be moving back to the original design, instead of the US bastardized version. Then you would need Swiss famed QC, materials selection and workmanship.
BoringGuy45
09-22-15, 00:31
I think the big thing would be moving back to the original design, instead of the US bastardized version. Then you would need Swiss famed QC, materials selection and workmanship.
The original 556 was, as the Gunnery Sergeant put it, so ugly it could be a modern art masterpiece. Besides the lower receiver and the rifle being aluminum as opposed to stamped metal, what was different in the designs?
The original 556 was, as the Gunnery Sergeant put it, so ugly it could be a modern art masterpiece. Besides the lower receiver and the rifle being aluminum as opposed to stamped metal, what was different in the designs?
The gas block doesn't have the heat insert, so the handguards rattle.
Iron sights that are MIM and self disassemble.
Iron sights too high above bore.
Optics rail is screwed to the receiver, screws aren't thread locked.
Rear sling mounting point moved so that it hits you in the nose.
Gas regulator has wrong sized holes.
Gas piston/op rod made of tubing instead of rod stock.
MIM CH.
Poor quality of trigger components.
Variable quality of the buttstock.
Most of the changes are directly attributable to making the rifle hit a price point.
H
BoringGuy45
09-22-15, 10:45
The gas block doesn't have the heat insert, so the handguards rattle.
Iron sights that are MIM and self disassemble.
Iron sights too high above bore.
Optics rail is screwed to the receiver, screws aren't thread locked.
Rear sling mounting point moved so that it hits you in the nose.
Gas regulator has wrong sized holes.
Gas piston/op rod made of tubing instead of rod stock.
MIM CH.
Poor quality of trigger components.
Variable quality of the buttstock.
Most of the changes are directly attributable to making the rifle hit a price point.
H
There in lies the rub. If, hypothetically, Sig were to manufacture the Sig 556 or 551A1 rifles with similar or same quality as the SG55x rifles, we'd be lucky if we saw them under $3000 I suspect.
There won't be QC like you'd expect from the Swiss. They don't need to. The Swiss 550 was designed with these guys in mind..
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/22/36b303738ba7c61e7fd593a53dfb4b49.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/22/5a6495560e83210aec25507ef1594b57.jpg
The American version was designed with these guys in mind
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/22/3aa202375470c50ba67126a8b108bc37.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/22/ca3b7612c523d94f4907e62938bd66c3.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/22/9b5c3e1d4aaed65eff2e8afe26ee3825.jpg
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Averageman
09-22-15, 15:40
The gas block doesn't have the heat insert, so the handguards rattle.
Iron sights that are MIM and self disassemble.
Iron sights too high above bore.
Optics rail is screwed to the receiver, screws aren't thread locked.
Rear sling mounting point moved so that it hits you in the nose.
Gas regulator has wrong sized holes.
Gas piston/op rod made of tubing instead of rod stock.
MIM CH.
Poor quality of trigger components.
Variable quality of the buttstock.
Most of the changes are directly attributable to making the rifle hit a price point.
H
I can believe all of that, but at the price point they were charging at the time, they could have done much better.
They didn't even get the barrel of mine in straight, I keep wondering where that little test target came from because it certainly wasn't from the rifle they sold me.
Every machined screw on that thing backed out at the same time and I spent more time chasing them down and putting them back in than shooting.
Had they spent a little time looking at QC and what makes a good AR, they could have brought the whole thing in with half the issues.
As it is Sig crapped the bed and lost on the deal.
KalashniKEV
09-22-15, 16:23
There in lies the rub. If, hypothetically, Sig were to manufacture the Sig 556 or 551A1 rifles with similar or same quality as the SG55x rifles, we'd be lucky if we saw them under $3000 I suspect.
That's assuming you're importing them from Switzerland where factory workers get a month of PTO, work 6 hours a day, and stack big cheddah.
It is possible for a US manufacturer to match the same standard for less and still turn a profit. The problem is that SIG Exeter thinks they should make very large profits, so they junk out the guns and then overcharge the consumer to boot.
I can't wait for FAMAE to start importing to the US...
What he said ^^^
I would pay $3K for a 550-2 American made, that will not happen because SIG American is ran by greedy
shits who think we are all stupid, kind of like our politicians.
noonesshowmonkey
09-23-15, 06:51
I would pay $3K for a 550-2 American made...
I would imagine that you aren't alone. Folks seem willing to shell out lots of cash, under or near to $3,000, for AR-15s from KAC/DD/Noveske etc.
The MBA types at Sig USA aren't fools, and I am sure have done the math. The cost of building a production line here in the US far exceeds what they would make in sales, is my guess. Either way, the SG550 series of rifles are pretty unique, and people are regularly pouring thousands of dollars into rifles.
LK
I would imagine that you aren't alone. Folks seem willing to shell out lots of cash, under or near to $3,000, for AR-15s from KAC/DD/Noveske etc.
The MBA types at Sig USA aren't fools, and I am sure have done the math. The cost of building a production line here in the US far exceeds what they would make in sales, is my guess. Either way, the SG550 series of rifles are pretty unique, and people are regularly pouring thousands of dollars into rifles.
Yet FN took the other route with the semi-auto SCAR. They didn't dumb down or cheapen the design. The only alteration from the .mil version was to remove the full auto components. But you have to pay for that quality.
OTOH, Sig USA is paying for the quality of their firearms in damaged reputation. I don't buy new Sig USA stuff anymore because of the multiple problems I've had, with both the rifles and pistols.
H
noonesshowmonkey
09-23-15, 22:09
Yet FN took the other route with the semi-auto SCAR. They didn't dumb down or cheapen the design. The only alteration from the .mil version was to remove the full auto components. But you have to pay for that quality.
If anything, my point was that rifles like the FN-SCAR in the civilian market show that there is indeed a market for a $3,000 piston-driven, side-folding, bomb-proof rifle. Quality costs, and FN charges for it.
That's assuming you're importing them from Switzerland where factory workers get a month of PTO, work 6 hours a day, and stack big cheddah.
It is possible for a US manufacturer to match the same standard for less and still turn a profit. The problem is that SIG Exeter thinks they should make very large profits, so they junk out the guns and then overcharge the consumer to boot.
I can't wait for FAMAE to start importing to the US...
Agreed. Sig Sauer USA could have done what FN, Steyr, IWI, CZ, and Arsenal have done and offer a rifle that is the equivalent of those offered overseas. Instead they chose to cheapen the product and use the SIG name to sell a turd. The 556 has been such a sad debacle for those of us wanting a quality product. Sig Sauer USA purposefully offered a subpar product to the U.S. market aimed at the Tapco and DPMS buying public.
OP in answer to your question, the 556 can be made better. It requires buying a problem-free, defect-free early rifle then spending $500 to $1k having a Swiss optic rail or rear diopter housing welded in place, +/- adding a Swiss lower, and refinishing the rifle. I have three such 556. One fully converted to a 552 SBR with rail welded in place, one 556P SBR with diopter welded in place, one 556 with a rail welded in place and a Classic lower. They are nice and still considerably less costly than a comparable Swiss 55x, but they will never be true Swiss guns and thus their resale value will always be blunted compared to Swiss guns.
00stormbringer
09-24-15, 12:36
A NIB SIG 553 can be had for 3K, used SIG 550 in the 15K neighborhood thanks to BUSH 41.
What does Reagan, Bush, and Clinton all have in common? Each one took a sh*t on the 2nd Amendment! Reagan banned the private ownership of "machineguns" post 1986, Bush 41 banned the importation of the so-called "Assault Weapon" in 1989, and Clinton enacted the Federal Assault Weapons on 1994. Thank goodness that Clinton's turd had a 10 year flush clause; unfortunately, the Republican's crap still stinks to high heaven. Rant Over.
A NIB SIG 553 can be had for 3K, used SIG 550 in the 15K neighborhood thanks to BUSH 41.
What does Reagan, Bush, and Clinton all have in common? Each one took a sh*t on the 2nd Amendment! Reagan banned the private ownership of "machineguns" post 1986, Bush 41 banned the importation of the so-called "Assault Weapon" in 1989, and Clinton enacted the Federal Assault Weapons on 1994. Thank goodness that Clinton's turd had a 10 year flush clause; unfortunately, the Republican's crap still stinks to high heaven. Rant Over.
A used 550 is really in the $7-10k range. Maybe $11-12k if truly NIB. But yes, Reagan, Bush Sr, and Clinton all royally F'd us. It is absolutely amazing that the Clinton ban had a sunset clause. Frankly the sporting clause of the '68 GCA and 922(o) need to be repealed.
Yes they did all of them, reflecting what ?
Answer : They are the flip side of the same coin, and always have been .
We will never have a true 550-2 made here to Swiss Mil-Spec.
Get over it. I'm trying to
Sadly, as it is my dream rifle in 5.56mm
BoringGuy45
10-09-15, 15:46
Yes they did all of them, reflecting what ?
Answer : They are the flip side of the same coin, and always have been .
We will never have a true 550-2 made here to Swiss Mil-Spec.
Get over it. I'm trying to
Sadly, as it is my dream rifle in 5.56mm
One can always dream. I keep hoping that some business savvy guy from a company like BCM, Daniel Defense, or any of the other companies that have a good business model, quality products, and good prices, would take over at Sig and turn them into that. At that point, we could have near-Swiss quality 556s. Of course, good things don't happen to me, so who am I kidding?
Yeah it really is stupid of Sig since the 550-2 is primarily precision stampings, like the HK 91, and many more.
I have some of their old pistols 226,229, 220 but I won't ever buy anything from them again.
I totally agree with everything said about Sig Sauer USA and the sad state of affairs concerning the 556. I do however have some hope now that Sig USA and Swiss Arms are no longer doing business together and we have a solid Swiss Arms Importer in JDI. While they will always be more expensive I think we have a solid expectation of being able to acquire more of their Swiss Arms platforms & parts without Cohen's interference.
BoringGuy45
10-10-15, 20:26
I totally agree with everything said about Sig Sauer USA and the sad state of affairs concerning the 556. I do however have some hope now that Sig USA and Swiss Arms are no longer doing business together and we have a solid Swiss Arms Importer in JDI. While they will always be more expensive I think we have a solid expectation of being able to acquire more of their Swiss Arms platforms & parts without Cohen's interference.
I was unaware of all that. I knew that Sig USA had severed pretty much all connection with the original Swiss company, as well as most ties to the German branch.
If JDI is able to get in some rifles, or at least parts for them, that would be awesome. No doubt I'd be paying around 3k for them if I'm lucky, but I think it would be worth it.
I was unaware of all that. I knew that Sig USA had severed pretty much all connection with the original Swiss company, as well as most ties to the German branch.
If JDI is able to get in some rifles, or at least parts for them, that would be awesome. No doubt I'd be paying around 3k for them if I'm lucky, but I think it would be worth it.
JDI already has parts available. Drop a line to dave (at) johndoeinvestigations (dot) com. They are bringing in lots of interesting stuff in the future.....can you say SAPR?
BoringGuy45, I think my Sig556 SBR is my favorite military style semi auto rifle. It handles great and runs like a champ, though I have to say that it's overgassed. Of course it's not alone in that department.
http://s24.postimg.org/yd7wafxkl/Sig_556_SBR_with_556_Rifle.jpg
I personally love the fact that it takes AR15 magazines. My Classic runs like a champ too, but it is front heavy and has the old more difficult to get to magazine release. Sig USA has obviously earned their reputation for hit or miss quality, but I seemed to have lucked out and am glad that I have both rifles.
JDI already has parts available. Drop a line to dave (at) johndoeinvestigations (dot) com. They are bringing in lots of interesting stuff in the future.....can you say SAPR?
Yes I can but only after saying SG 553R...:cool:
BoringGuy45
10-11-15, 00:56
BoringGuy45, I think my Sig556 SBR is my favorite military style semi auto rifle. It handles great and runs like a champ, though I have to say that it's overgassed. Of course it's not alone in that department.
http://s24.postimg.org/yd7wafxkl/Sig_556_SBR_with_556_Rifle.jpg
I personally love the fact that it takes AR15 magazines. My Classic runs like a champ too, but it is front heavy and has the old more difficult to get to magazine release. Sig USA has obviously earned their reputation for hit or miss quality, but I seemed to have lucked out and am glad that I have both rifles.
I'd certainly like to get one at some point if there's the option of upgrading parts on it. I checked out the 556 forums, and apparently there's a guy who does redrilled gas valves that apparently have solved that problem. If you haven't already, check it out.
I like the idea behind the 556. A 55x series that takes STANAG mags was a great idea. One thing about Sig Sauer, for all their problems in quality, they've at least been innovative, and not in the Kel-Tec "what the **** is this monstrosity?" sense. I've wanted a 55x series of rifle for a long time, but what really has made me obsessed with it lately was the 556xi. It's an excellent idea that's been hamstrung by Sig Sauer's corner cutting. Had it been made with the same quality that you find in ARs from companies like BCM or Daniel Defense, I'd have one by now. Honestly, it looks like it's a 3rd party, high quality parts kit away from being an excellent rifle.
BoringGuy45
10-19-15, 22:16
So, I got to handle a 556xi today. It's a shame that it's such a hit-or-miss with Sig quality because I would have put money down on it right there if it really was going to be classic Sig quality. The rifle was light, comfortable, and it appeared that all the controls were in a good place. The trigger, however, sucked some pretty diseased balls. Seriously, it was as mushy and heavy as the worst bullpup trigger you could imagine. I had just gotten done shooting my Geissele SSA equipped AR, so I was somewhat spoiled though.
I couldn't help but wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea for some American parts company to make higher quality replacement parts for the American 556s that would bring them closer in quality to the Swiss rifles. Of course, because of the mishandling of the 556 by Sig, it's probably not popular enough for any company have a good enough market to do that.
So, I got to handle a 556xi today. It's a shame that it's such a hit-or-miss with Sig quality because I would have put money down on it right there if it really was going to be classic Sig quality. The rifle was light, comfortable, and it appeared that all the controls were in a good place. The trigger, however, sucked some pretty diseased balls. Seriously, it was as mushy and heavy as the worst bullpup trigger you could imagine. I had just gotten done shooting my Geissele SSA equipped AR, so I was somewhat spoiled though.
I couldn't help but wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea for some American parts company to make higher quality replacement parts for the American 556s that would bring them closer in quality to the Swiss rifles. Of course, because of the mishandling of the 556 by Sig, it's probably not popular enough for any company have a good enough market to do that.
The problem is in the corner cutting that occurred with the entire rifle. The receiver construction of the 556 is not up to par with the Swiss 55x. The early 556s had more welds and were closer in quality to the Swiss receivers, though still not their equal as they lack furnace brazing. The current production trigger on the 556 is also not the equal of the Swiss 55x. Early 556 FCGs were pretty close. The good news is that Shooting Sight makes a match wire EDM tool steel hammer and sear.
Basically someone other than Sig Sauer Exeter needs to make the 55x series domestically for it to be a really good rifle. I do believe that an early 556 can be made a great rifle IF it has been worked over by a good gunsmith to have a steel rail or diopter rear sight welded in place and the critical internal components swapped for Swiss components. The early barrels were made by FN, so these are GTG. Early FCGs, gas pistons, early bolt groups (these were Swiss) are all GTG. So a properly smithed rifle with a Swiss lower should be GTG. The issue is that with all this work you are going to be pushing close to the price of a Swiss 553.
The problem is in the corner cutting that occurred with the entire rifle. The receiver construction of the 556 is not up to par with the Swiss 55x. The early 556s had more welds and were closer in quality to the Swiss receivers, though still not their equal as they lack furnace brazing. The current production trigger on the 556 is also not the equal of the Swiss 55x. Early 556 FCGs were pretty close. The good news is that Shooting Sight makes a match wire EDM tool steel hammer and sear.
Basically someone other than Sig Sauer Exeter needs to make the 55x series domestically for it to be a really good rifle. I do believe that an early 556 can be made a great rifle IF it has been worked over by a good gunsmith to have a steel rail or diopter rear sight welded in place and the critical internal components swapped for Swiss components. The early barrels were made by FN, so these are GTG. Early FCGs, gas pistons, early bolt groups (these were Swiss) are all GTG. So a properly smithed rifle with a Swiss lower should be GTG. The issue is that with all this work you are going to be pushing close to the price of a Swiss 553.
And if you were looking at the 556xi Russian I would think the incoming SG 553R would be a no-brainer considering their cost compared to what it would take to improve a 556xi model.
And if you were looking at the 556xi Russian I would think the incoming SG 553R would be a no-brainer considering their cost compared to what it would take to improve a 556xi model.
Exactly.
I would think the incoming SG 553R
Incoming from where? Please elaborate.
Incoming from where? Please elaborate.
Not sure what to elaborate on other then what JoshNC has said in other posts, we have a true Swiss Arms importer in JDI Firearms and his order of SG 553R's in pistol format will be hitting the country in December, at a price of $2200-$2300 depending on the exchange rate. Go to facebook and search for JDI firearms, of course I can say this as I have already prepaid for one I will be SBRing as soon as they hit.
I don't do Facebook, but I used my wife's account to find their Facebook page. It doesn't show anything about a SG 553R. They have a website listed, but it actually goes to some private investigator company. Any other way to get info on this offering?
I don't do Facebook, but I used my wife's account to find their Facebook page. It doesn't show anything about a SG 553R. They have a website listed, but it actually goes to some private investigator company. Any other way to get info on this offering?
If you look through the posts on John Doe's facebook page you will see his post where he lists the 100 SG 553 R's that he his importing. I personally see it as an improved AK platform, with a much better trigger, and am particularly interested in running it through it's paces.
I'm fond of my two 553's and 551-A1. I realize they're a bit antiquated but they're a ton of fun to shoot and I like the feel of the "classic" forend in hand. So much so, that I'm building a couple of AR's w/ MOE SL forends which are quite similar in shape.
If you look through the posts on John Doe's facebook page you will see his post where he lists the 100 SG 553 R's that he his importing. I personally see it as an improved AK platform, with a much better trigger, and am particularly interested in running it through it's paces.
Still can't find that, but I did email them. I received a prompt response and quick answers to my questions. I'm going to buy one. It will be a nice companion to my 556 SBR. I really like how the 556 takes standard AR15 magazines and this SG 553 R will take standard 7.62x39 AK magazines.
I searched the internet for any other mention of these coming in and can't find anything. Usually there's a lot more talk when things like this happen. Regardless, I do appreciate the information.
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