View Full Version : Speer LE 64 Grain Gold Dot
Speer LE 64 Grain Gold Dot: Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics
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Speer has expanded its line of Gold Dot ammunition to include rifle ammunition in 223 Remington. The ammunition examined for this post is loaded with a 64 grain bonded soft point bullet that has less exposed lead at the meplat than Federal’s 62 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet that is used in their LE223T2 load.
The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a boat-tail and a cannelure. This load is charged with a ball powder that according to Speer is a “flash suppressed propellant.” The primers are sealed and crimped in place, however, there is no sealant at the case mouth.
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The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a nominal length of 0.825” and a specific gravity of 10.0. A barrel with a 1:9” twist should stabilize it quite well.
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From ATK’s website:
“Like their handgun counterparts, the Gold Dot rifle bullets are constructed using Gold Dot technology. The process of joining the jacket and core one molecule at a time eliminates the potential for the leading cause of bullet failure—jacket/core separation. It also ensures impressive weight retention through barriers as tough as auto-glass.”
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The 64 grain Gold Dot load was chronographed from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel, a 16” Colt light-weight barrel and a 14.5” Colt M4A1 barrel. All of the barrels have chrome lining, NATO chambers and 1:7” twists. 10-shot strings of the load were fired over an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. All velocities listed are muzzle velocities as calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program.
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Accuracy testing was conducted following my usual protocol of firing 10-shot groups from a concrete bench at a distance of 100 yards using my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15. This barrel has a 1:7.7” twist. The free-float rail of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest and the PRS stock was stabilized in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe. Sighting was performed using a Leupold Competition Series scope with a mirage shade. The scope was adjusted to be parallax free at 100 yards.
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Prior to testing the 64 grain Gold Dot load, I fired a 10-shot control group using hand-loaded 69 grain Sierra MatchKings. That group had an extreme spread of 0.86”. Three 10-shot groups of the Speer LE 64 grain Gold Dots fired in a row had extreme spreads that measured:
1.11”
0.91”
1.30”
for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 1.12”! I over-layed those three groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The composite group had a mean radius of 0.33”.
For comparison, previous testing of the Black Hills blue box 75 grain MHP load fired from the same set-up as above produced three 10-shot groups at 100 yards that had an average extreme spread of 1.14” and a mean radius of 0.37” for the 30-shot composite group.
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Velocity Update for the 64 grain Gold Dot
Manufacturers typically use bolt-action “test barrels” to obtain their advertised velocities for their ammunition. These test barrels are usually 24” long and often have minimum spec SAAMI chambers. These factors combine to give ammunition higher advertised velocities than the velocities that we actually obtain from our AR-15s. Also, due to its gas operating system, the AR-15 looses 20 fps or more of velocity compared to an equivalent barrel without a gas system.
Sierra test barrels
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Shooting Times 2009
As an example, Hornady advertises the velocity of their 55 grain TAP load as 3240 fps. When fired from an AR-15 with a 24” Krieger barrel with a 5.56 Match Chamber (and of course a gas operating system) the muzzle velocity of the 55 grain TAP load was 3167 fps, for a difference of 73 fps from the advertised velocity.
Speer’s website reports the muzzle velocity of the 64 grain Gold Dot load as 3000 fps. When fired from my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15, the 64 grain Gold Dot load had a muzzle velocity of 2912 fps, for a difference of 88 fps from the advertised velocity.
Terminal Ballistic Properties of the 64 grain Gold Dot
Thanks to the efforts of Dr. G.K. Roberts, we now have some excellent answers to the questions of terminal ballistics pertaining to the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot LE load. The results shown below indicate the penetration of this load in bare ballistic gelatin as well as after having passed through auto-glass. Auto (safety) glass is one of the most difficult barriers (of those commonly tested) for 5.56mm/.223 Remington loads to penetrate and still perform adequately in ballistic gelatin.
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Comparisons.
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Notes on Data from the ATK Workshops
The ATK Workshops have a history of failing to follow the proper protocols for terminal ballistic testing and of publishing misleading and fabricated data. As a simple example, the established method of determining the expanded diameter of a recovered bullet, is to measure the widest and narrowest portions “at the leading edge of the deformed bullet” and then average those two measurements to obtain the recovered diameter.
Witnesses to some of the ATK Workshops have reported that the deformed bullets were measured at the widest portion of the bullet only and then that measurement only was recorded as the recovered diameter, thus giving exaggerated results.
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Courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts
Further Inconsistences in the Test Procedures and Reported Data from the ATK Workshops.
As I’ve previously posted, the ATK Wound Ballistic Workshop at Fort Collins on 6-26-08 has a major credibility issue regarding the 64 grain Gold Dot data. For this workshop, the stated test weapon was a 16” barreled RRA LAR-15. The Workshop reported a velocity of 2575 fps for the 64 grain Gold Dot fired from said 16” barrel.
Now, look at the data from the ATK Wound Ballistic Workshop at Aurora on 6-24-08. This Workshop reports the velocity of the 64 grain Gold Dot as exactly 2575 fps, when fired from a (Colt) Commando with an 11” barrel. It would be next to impossible for two different barrels with a difference in length of 5” to produce the exact same velocity with the 64 grain Gold Dot. It's obvious that the velocity data for the 64 grain Gold Dot from one or both of the Workshops is false.
Since the Workshops failed to accurately determine/record something as basic as the velocity for the 64 grain Gold Dot, I question the validity of any of the Workshops' reported data for the 64 Grain Dot; especially something as crucial as the penetration depth. An individual who was present at an ATK Workship stated this about the ballistic gel blocks that were used at the ATK Workshop:
"the first gelatin block was calibrated initially at the beginning but the other blocks sat outside until they were shot and were not calibrated or the temp checked prior to use. I'm fairly certain that they were warmer than they should have been and without calibration the data was suspect, at best."
More Fabricated Data from the ATK Wound Ballistic Workshop
The ATK Wound Ballistic Workshops continue to demonstrate their lack of credibility. In their latest report entitled “Butte – Montana 5-27-09” they include more fabricated data for the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot.
Speer advertises a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps for the 64 grain Gold Dot load when fired from a 24” barrel. During my own chronographing of the 64 grain Gold Dot load, I obtained a muzzle velocity of 2912 fps when fired from a 24” Krieger barreled AR-15.
Using a 16” barreled M4, the ATK workshop claims to have obtained a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps for the 64 grain Gold Dot load. Using a barrel that is 8 INCHES SHORTER, the ATK workshop claims to have obtained the exact same muzzle velocity as advertised from a 24” barrel. It’s quite obvious that the ATK workshop never even chronographed the 64 grain Gold Dot load and then falsified their report using the advertised muzzle velocity. The irresponsible practices of the ATK workshops and their failures to adhere to established protocols for terminal ballistic testing renders all of their data suspect.
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Some comparative data . . .
Federal 62 Grain Fusion vs Federal 62 Grain Fusion MSR vs Speer LE 62 Grain Gold Dot
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The muzzle velocities shown in the tables below were obtained back-to-back during the same chronograph session using recent lots of all three of the Fusion/Gold Dot loads chrongographed.
Atmospheric Conditions
Temperature: 73 degrees F (plus or minus one degree)
Barometric Pressure: 29.68 inches of Hg
Humidity: 62%
Altitude: 950 feet above sea level
Muzzle velocities from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7” twist.
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Muzzle velocities from a 14.5 Noveske N4 light barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7’ twist.
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10-shot groups fired from one of my precision AR-15s with a Lothar-Walther barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber and a 1:8” twist. The groups were fired from the bench at a distance of 100 yards with the same sight settings on the scope for each of the three groups.
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Thanks for the research!
Da nada. https://app.box.com/shared/static/ig2mmpy7g3.gif
Glockman1968
09-27-15, 18:49
How, exactly, aren't you an "SME"?
As is boringly usual...excellent presentation. Just really well done. If you wrote a review of toilet paper, I'd read it. LOL
Now about that review of the Nosler Defense .223 64gr.....
Thank you sir for your time and attention to detail.
Now about that review of the Nosler Defense .223 64gr.....
The data is "in the can." I just have to get the spare time to write it up.
556BlackRifle
09-27-15, 19:23
Nicely done as always Molon! Thanks!!
BufordTJustice
09-29-15, 09:30
Another amazing series of posts.
Have you experienced a marked difference in group sizes and/or terminal performance between the NATO pressure XM556FBIT3 and the SAAMI pressure TBBC round referenced here?
Have you experienced a marked difference in group sizes . . . between the NATO pressure XM556FBIT3 and the SAAMI pressure TBBC round referenced here?
Yes. I'll be posting data on that subject in the near future.
Leonidas24
09-29-15, 22:47
I'm a little underwhelmed with the velocities of this round out of a 14.5" barrel. Excellent presentation as always Molon but I can get faster velocities out of my 14.5" AR and 77 gr Sierras.
sometimes to much velocity undermines the design and purpose of the round/projectile.
I'm a little underwhelmed with the velocities of this round out of a 14.5" barrel. Excellent presentation as always Molon but I can get faster velocities out of my 14.5" AR and 77 gr Sierras.
just talking out my ass here but IIRC, the reason for the lowered velocity with soft point bullets is that they dont need the 5.56 velocity to get the job done and the bullets tend to under perform at the high velocity.....does that sound correct?
where as the copper solids need the extra velocity to get that tip opened up.
just talking out my ass here but IIRC, the reason for the lowered velocity with soft point bullets is that they dont need the 5.56 velocity to get the job done and the bullets tend to under perform at the high velocity.....does that sound correct?
where as the copper solids need the extra velocity to get that tip opened up.
As to the first, thats what I understand as well. The soft points will open up pretty well and arent relying on blistering speed to tumble and what not. Slightly different wounding mechanism. From what I understand the 62g fusion is supposed to expand down into the 1700 fps range(unless I heard the number wrong, but I believe that is what I saw).
As to the second i.e. copper solids, maybe, maybe not. Take the 110g Black Tips designed for 300BLK and they are reported to open reliably down to 1400fps with reports of guys saying they opened up at even slower speeds(guestimating speed with ballistics software I believe). Or the couple subsonic expanders from LeHigh Defense that open down in the 700-800fps range. I think the manufacturers can do a lot with the alloys and hardness's and what not that they use with the copper solids.
Great thread thank you.
Really liked the comparison of the 3 similar rounds.
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Here is a recovered 75gr Gold Dot from gel. It impacted at roughly 1850fps, flipped twice, and penetrated roughly 21".
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was that recovered from a deer?
was that recovered from a deer?
he said from a gel...
"Here is a recovered 75gr Gold Dot from gel. It impacted at roughly 1850fps, flipped twice, and penetrated roughly 21".
ColtSeavers
12-17-15, 17:46
Here is a recovered 75gr Gold Dot from gel. It impacted at roughly 1850fps, flipped twice, and penetrated roughly 21".
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Well that's not promising. Would like to know more about the gel if possible.
Also, could this be (re)posted in your 75gr Gold Dot thread?
BufordTJustice
12-17-15, 18:06
Well that's not promising. Would like to know more about the gel if possible.
Also, could this be (re)posted in your 75gr Gold Dot thread?
Agreed.
I had higher hopes than that.
BoyScout4Life
08-07-17, 16:41
PSA has this on sale right now/ After reviewing this I may have to pass. But the price is 50% off. This may be why. No Expansion....
vicious_cb
08-07-17, 18:55
PSA has this on sale right now/ After reviewing this I may have to pass. But the price is 50% off. This may be why. No Expansion....
I would take clear gel tests with a grain of salt. Gold Dot is a street proven round and vetted in the lab as a good performer. Its one the best values on the market. Or you can go full retard barfcom and load M855 cause the mil. uses it :rolleyes:
PSA has this on sale right now/ After reviewing this I may have to pass. But the price is 50% off. This may be why. No Expansion....
I'd take the test with a grain of salt. Same gel showed no expansion from a 70gr TSX at well over 2000fps. 75gr GDSP is my go-to.
vicious_cb
08-08-17, 12:44
I'd take the test with a grain of salt. Same gel showed no expansion from a 70gr TSX at well over 2000fps. 75gr GDSP is my go-to.
It was tested in clear gel correct? If its where I think its from, I believe he uses clear gel(a certain tester named after a sandwich).
Umm, the 75gr post, unless it is a typo it stated impacted at 1850fps. At which point I would assume we are either throwing it out a really short barrel, or most likely impacting at extended range, since from my understanding even out of a 10 inch barrel the round is doing over 2000FPS. For what most people are loading their rifles up for, HD inside of most likely 25 yards I am not sure I'd be concerned. If you were looking at terminal performance at longer ranges then possibly a concern.
Anyway, that is my observation.
A. Quit worthless necroposts.
B. GD ammo has been proven. If you decide not purchase it based on questionable science, that leaves more for others.
PSA has this on sale right now/ After reviewing this I may have to pass. But the price is 50% off. This may be why. No Expansion....
What are people using for training that mimics the .223 64gr. Speer GD?
If you refer to ballistics, I haven't found anything.
The 64 gr. G.D. isn't 5.56. There is noticeably more drop at 300 yds with the GD than say CBC 62 gr. FMJ.
To 200 yds. the difference in trajectory isn't substantially different than m193.
Eurodriver
09-06-17, 15:24
What are people using for training that mimics the .223 64gr. Speer GD?
My XBR 77gr TMK handloads and 75gr Gold Dots out of a 20" are within 8" of each other (a deer's vital zone) at 300 yards.
I have not found anything close to the 64gr.
gunnerblue
09-06-17, 22:54
Most of my carbines are zeroed for 64 gr GD. I use a 55 gr handload at ~2775 fps for practice and it is good for 200 yds on a 1/2 IPSC torso.
Most of my carbines are zeroed for 64 gr GD. I use a 55 gr handload at ~2775 fps for practice and it is good for 200 yds on a 1/2 IPSC torso.
My XBR 77gr TMK handloads and 75gr Gold Dots out of a 20" are within 8" of each other (a deer's vital zone) at 300 yards.
I have not found anything close to the 64gr.
If you refer to ballistics, I haven't found anything.
The 64 gr. G.D. isn't 5.56. There is noticeably more drop at 300 yds with the GD than say CBC 62 gr. FMJ.
To 200 yds. the difference in trajectory isn't substantially different than m193.
Yes, out to 200m M855/M193 mimic it well enough to hit standard silhouettes.
Could someone PLEASE lead me to the BC for the Speer 64gr GDSP, 24448? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks.
MisterHelix
02-23-18, 17:57
Could someone PLEASE lead me to the BC for the Speer 64gr GDSP, 24448? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks.
My notes say .267, but I don't recall where I got that number from.
My notes say .267, but I don't recall where I got that number from.
Thanks. The Winchester Super-X 64gr is listed at .257. Sounds right.
Diamondback
02-23-18, 18:25
Color me stupid, but do we have anything on these out of 10.3"-10.5" barrels?
Could someone PLEASE lead me to the BC for the Speer 64gr GDSP, 24448? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks.
64 is no longer listed at the Vista LE website, but the 62 is.
Specifications:
Part Number: 24445SP
Bullet Style: GDSP
Caliber: 223 Rem. (5.56x45mm)
Test Barrel Length in Inches: 24
Bullet Weight (Grains/Grams): 62 / 4.02
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.25
That's what I was running into.
64 is no longer listed at the Vista LE website, but the 62 is.
Specifications:
Part Number: 24445SP
Bullet Style: GDSP
Caliber: 223 Rem. (5.56x45mm)
Test Barrel Length in Inches: 24
Bullet Weight (Grains/Grams): 62 / 4.02
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.25
I like how they apparently adjusted the BC. I may have barked a bit too loudly.
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