View Full Version : Movement
I hope this isn't a waste of time, but here goes...Are there any available resources that discuss movement, i.e. getting from Point A to Point B under unfriendly conditions/circumstances? For example, it's 22 miles from my place of employment to my wife's and then another 7 to the house; the entire distance is suburban North Texas - several highways and main arteries to cross, lots of houses, some business and light industrial areas, etc but also with some large areas of relatively undeveloped land. I'm prepared clothing and equipment wise to get to her, and she's prepared to get from her workplace to the house along with having some supplemental items cached that I might need once I get to her to complete the walk home. I've got maps, worked out multiple routes, and identified several known choke points and other areas to avoid, but I've started to consider additional details and factors that may have some bearing on this situation or other similar ones.
I know that I'm going to have to make the decision based on existing circumstances at the time, but assuming that SHTF, roads are blocked/locked down, vehicles are inoperable, marshal law has been declared, etc, are there any general guidelines on how to proceed once the decision has been made to move? The first answers are probably, "it depends, and very carefully," but I've been thinking about this for a while in an effort to have some strategies already identified.
I'm looking for general info, suggestions, ideas, etc that would help me make an initial decision as well as help me to update my plan while on the move based on changing conditions. Do I walk at night? Stick to the alleys or less traveled streets? Do I route myself through the light industrial areas to avoid contact? Do I try to link together a route moving through undeveloped areas as much as possible? When is one approach better than another?
Moose-Knuckle
09-29-15, 15:36
Good topic. Every time I have dwelt on the matter I always go back to night time movement. Provided of course one has the luxury of time.
As for day time movement, smoke devices are still available mainly from paint ball sites. If one had to, smoke can afford one some invaluable concealment.
Well I can almost guarantee you aren't going to get home in one day on foot. I don't know of a resource as you ask, but you want to be as unnoticed as possible.
There's a two way problem concerning movement... if you are out in the open, sure you can see others, but they can see you. Going through a maze of buildings, you are liable to stumble on someone before you see them.
Night movement isn't always practical. Not to mention hazardous.
You will have to make careful analysis of your surroundings in order to formulate that best path.
Great topic. I will post more on it when I get to my computer.
HansTheHobbit
09-29-15, 18:09
Is this 29 miles as the crow flies, or actual distance via shortest route by car? If you're in good shape, and I mean good shape, then you can make 30 miles in ten hours, but you'll be hurting. If you're in fair condition, then you can make it in a single push with small breaks every few hours, so maybe 15 hours or so. If you're in average shape, then you'll probably need two days, maybe more. And all of this is assuming that it's flat out, you're walking on roads and sidewalks, there are no detours, and you're carrying very little weight. I would suggest trying to walk 30 miles to see if you can even do it.
Assuming you're reasonably sure you can make the distance, you'll need enough food and water for however long it takes you. If you can make it in less than 24 hours, then you will need a minimum of a gallon of water, more in the summer, and probably around five thousand calories of easily digestible food. And you couldn't count on being able to buy food or water on the way, as anything bad enough to force you to walk would be bad enough to shut down stores.
The only realistic scenario I can think of that would force you to walk is civil unrest or natural disaster. In civil unrest, you wouldn't want to be out in the open, so that leaves natural disaster. I'm assuming you live in the DFW metro from your description, and I don't believe there are any fault lines in that area. That leaves tornadoes and floods. I don't see either one of those things being bad enough to cause someone to "bug out."
If you did ever attempt anything like that, be sure to get some good outdoor gear. Wool socks and Gore-Tex footwear is mandatory. You'll also want appropriate clothing for the weather, which means rain gear all year long, and good insulation in the winter, especially if you plan on stopping to rest. Like I said, I would suggest seeing if you can do 30 miles, and in various weather conditions, before considering trying this in real life.
Good topic, OP. Hoping to hear more insight from more knowledgable folks. One thing that gives me pause about night movement is the fact of seeing where you're going, assuming you don't have the benefit of NODs and navigate via ambient lighting.
In a city, ambient lighting shouldn't be a big problem assuming the electrical grid is still up, but during the night is also when the not-so-savory folks are usually most active.
On a side note, I was reading this journal paper that theorizes why humans sleep for so long. Besides the few restorative benefits, one reason the authors assert is that it's an evolutionary benefit. Making us sleep prevents us from roaming around at night, blind to what's out there, and accidentally falling off a cliff.
Considering your environment, a key condition for you to monitor is the human terrain. Are people panicking? Might be best to wait for nighttime to travel, as mentioned above. Are they simply confused or in a state of shock? Might be a good idea to cover as much ground as possible in daylight before the situation deteriorates further. Good topic!
HansTheHobbit
09-30-15, 00:19
Good topic, OP. Hoping to hear more insight from more knowledgable folks. One thing that gives me pause about night movement is the fact of seeing where you're going, assuming you don't have the benefit of NODs and navigate via ambient lighting.
In a city, ambient lighting shouldn't be a big problem assuming the electrical grid is still up, but during the night is also when the not-so-savory folks are usually most active.
On a side note, I was reading this journal paper that theorizes why humans sleep for so long. Besides the few restorative benefits, one reason the authors assert is that it's an evolutionary benefit. Making us sleep prevents us from roaming around at night, blind to what's out there, and accidentally falling off a cliff.
It's interesting you mention that. I saw a documentary on daily life in medieval Europe, and apparently people actually wake up in the middle of the night when their circadian rhythm is functioning. Something about electric lights puts us into an unnatural cycle. People would go to sleep at sunset, wake up around two AM, then get up and do stuff for a few hours, then sleep till morning. I think they're probably right because I can attest to the fact that a few days in the backcountry will cause you to go into that cycle. Funny thing is, they said in the documentary that people would go walking in the middle of the night and fall off cliffs and stuff.
OP, forgot to mention, the most important thing you can put in your bugout bag for that little hike you're planning is athletic tape. When you start to get a blister, and you will at that distance, just tape it up. Don't bother with bandaids, they won't stay in place. And wrap red cling wrap around your headlamp to travel at night. People won't notice it nearly as much, and they'll think it's taillights from a car if they do, not to mention it will preserve your night vision if you have to go incognito.
Also, use Google Earth to plan your route. I used to take epic long walks to help stay in shape for climbing trips, and there are lots of footways and shortcuts in urban areas that people never notice. If you have a route planned out, then it's possible to move through a busy city without hardly being seen. Storm drains, railroad tracks, neighborhood parks, greenbelts with dry runoff beds, alleys, cemeteries, golf courses, industrial parks, etc. are all places that provide very low profile travel through busy cities, as well as short cuts. For example, some golf courses can save you several miles by cutting diagonally through them. Also be aware that downtown areas usually have sky bridges and tunnels connecting buildings that are open to public foot traffic. Large apartment complexes and college campuses also make great shortcuts that get you off the busy streets.
Moose-Knuckle
09-30-15, 02:00
As with any topic concerning this particular sub-forum there are innumerable scenarios that can/will play out. In my OP I mentioned night time movement due to the concealment that low light / no light conditions afford. But as we are all aware there is no free lunch. With moving in the dark the threat of mechanical injuries rise exponentially. Lack of visibility will affect everything from landmark identification to keeping in contact with other members of your group. Which brings up things like NODs, cat eyes, etc.
In his blog (SHTF School) about his story of urban survival during the Bosnian War, Selco explains that they NEVER were out and about during the day time. This was due to the amount of sniper kills. They only moved around after dark.
I also seem to recall Eric Haney stating that is was night time land nav that separated the men from the boys at 1st-SFOD-D Selection. The stars are your friends!
HansTheHobbit
09-30-15, 02:50
As with any topic concerning this particular sub-forum there are innumerable scenarios that can/will play out. In my OP I mentioned night time movement due to the concealment that low light / no light conditions afford. But as we are all aware there is no free lunch. With moving in the dark the threat of mechanical injuries rise exponentially. Lack of visibility will affect everything from landmark identification to keeping in contact with other members of your group. Which brings up things like NODs, cat eyes, etc.
In his blog (SHTF School) about his story of urban survival during the Bosnian War, Selco explains that they NEVER were out and about during the day time. This was due to the amount of sniper kills. They only moved around after dark.
The challenge presented by navigation is certainly a valid point, especially if the lights were out. I would highly recommend buying a cheap GPS, it can even be used. All it really needs is the capability to program waypoints using lat/long coordinates. That way you can plan your route using free mapping software and program it as a saved route on the GPS. You can't trust the GPS on your smartphone for this because it's based 100% on cell towers. If the power goes out, or the cell grid is overloaded, then none of the mapping features will work. A real GPS is totally reliable as long as the batteries are fresh and the government has not activated selective availability. Selective availability is a real concern for sure, but you have to consider the consequences. If they activate it, then all civilian GPS systems will be turned off, as they do not have the crypto software to use the scrambled signals. That includes all commercial aircraft, and I believe it would also include law enforcement and emergency services.
I also believe you're correct in planning to travel at night. Two things to consider, though. First, you will have to wait until dusk to set out, which means you could spend as much as eight hours at work waiting for the sun to go down, your wife all that time wondering where you are, as she would have to stay in place at least all night, which might not be an option for her. If you set out at dusk, then you might make it to her by sunrise if you move at a steady pace and don't take too many breaks. This is being extremely optimistic, as it assumes you're in good shape. If going undetected is a necessity, that will delay you further, as you will be taking detours to avoid open spaces and moving slowly, not to mention stopping frequently to observe your surroundings or wait for people to pass.
The second concern is that if you don't make the entire distance by sunup, then you will be forced to find a place to sleep until the sun goes back down again. I think this is what you should really plan for, as I think it's extremely unlikely that you're going to make all 22 miles in a single night. So either find safe places to hold up during the daylight or plan your route so that you're going through the most exposed legs at night.
In any case, communication between you and your wife will be essential to pulling it off. You might look into getting some ham radios so you guys can communicate if the cell phones aren't working.
I know that I'm going to have to make the decision based on existing circumstances at the time, but assuming that SHTF, roads are blocked/locked down, vehicles are inoperable, marshal law has been declared, etc, are there any general guidelines on how to proceed once the decision has been made to move?
I think that more than likely, if you are at work when this disaster happens, most if not all people will be in a state of shock and this should benefit you by allowing you to make the trek home in a day or two, without much resistance. It will probably take a few days before people really start freaking out.
Last month I completed a 15 mile hike in 5 hours, between the hours of 1300 to 1800. It was a pretty well defined trail outside of Austin, and the temp was 99º and humidity was ~50%. It was mostly thick trees along a dry creek bed, but there was water in spots. My pack weight was around 20 pounds, which included one gallon of water. HansTheHobbit's recommendation of making sure that you have athletic tape is spot on. The trail was longer than expected. My wife and I both developed hot spots at roughly 5 miles, but continued on without treatment. Big mistake. When we reached the point where we turned around, we realized that we had been 7.5 miles. We stopped at this point to tend to the hot spots, but it was too late. It was also at this point that I realized that my Leukotape was absent from my kit. I did have Bodyglide and 2nd Skin blister pads, but they weren't much help at this point. We got to finish the second half of the hike with blisters that were painful, but we did keep up our pace. We were both pretty well smoked by the end, and our feet were toast. Take care of your feet, or your ability to move will be compromised.
I would choose to move at night, as much as possible. Clear safety glasses are a vital piece of PPE to have on hand when moving at night. Just like protecting your feet, your eyes are something you desperately need. It would only take one branch to the eye to severely impact your safety.
I'm assuming you live in the DFW metro from your description, and I don't believe there are any fault lines in that area. That leaves tornadoes and floods. I don't see either one of those things being bad enough to cause someone to "bug out."
There actually is a fault line near DFW. There have been more than a few small quakes centered near Irving, which is in the center of DFW. I don't know how probable a quake large enough to cause widespread hysteria is, but I guess that anything is possible.
Thanks to all who have posted because this is exactly the kind of info and sharing I was looking for. As I thought, there is no, single correct answer, just a metric ****-ton of considerations to be put into the mix depending upon particular circumstances.
The distance I quoted is as-the-crow-flies and is likely nowhere near what I estimate the actual walking distance to be. Add in trying to avoid wide open spaces, potential crowds, choke points, etc, and it's a long walk. I gave up long ago making that trip in a day (or overnight) and am confident that my wife will be safe for at least a short while at the facility where she works while I get to her. Part of our planning has been trying to develop "go, no-go" criteria for even leaving the house, going to work, etc should things turn ugly, so the scenario I described in the OP pretty much assumes that whatever it is that has happened was sudden, very violent, and widespread.
The point about protecting my feet is one of my top priorities, but I'd never considered additional eye protection - great idea!! In a more urban setting, I've sort of assumed that water might not be as much of a problem as it would be elsewhere. Water storage around my area seems to be elevated for the most part, so I assume that gravity would do the work even if the municipal pumps failed and I could hit up water faucets here and there to get water that has already been treated. One concern may be backpressure from sewer lines contaminating, for example, water in lines around a house, but I don't know enough about plumbing to be certain of what I'm thinking. It would be nice, though probably not recommended, to be able to relax just a bit about sourcing water.
One of my biggest concerns about moving at night is navigation while also paying attention to my surroundings. other people, and trying to keep the noise down. I've resisted GPS simply to avoid reliance on technology that may potentially fail. I'm pretty decent with map and compass, dead reckoning, and keeping a sense of where I am, but a GPS might be in my future, as well.
Thanks again to all who have posted. I follow this section of the forum and have learned so much from all of you. It's amazing what a little bit (or lot) of knowledge can do to help one's sense of well being.
HansTheHobbit
09-30-15, 12:13
Thanks to all who have posted because this is exactly the kind of info and sharing I was looking for. As I thought, there is no, single correct answer, just a metric ****-ton of considerations to be put into the mix depending upon particular circumstances.
The distance I quoted is as-the-crow-flies and is likely nowhere near what I estimate the actual walking distance to be. Add in trying to avoid wide open spaces, potential crowds, choke points, etc, and it's a long walk. I gave up long ago making that trip in a day (or overnight) and am confident that my wife will be safe for at least a short while at the facility where she works while I get to her. Part of our planning has been trying to develop "go, no-go" criteria for even leaving the house, going to work, etc should things turn ugly, so the scenario I described in the OP pretty much assumes that whatever it is that has happened was sudden, very violent, and widespread.
The point about protecting my feet is one of my top priorities, but I'd never considered additional eye protection - great idea!! In a more urban setting, I've sort of assumed that water might not be as much of a problem as it would be elsewhere. Water storage around my area seems to be elevated for the most part, so I assume that gravity would do the work even if the municipal pumps failed and I could hit up water faucets here and there to get water that has already been treated. One concern may be backpressure from sewer lines contaminating, for example, water in lines around a house, but I don't know enough about plumbing to be certain of what I'm thinking. It would be nice, though probably not recommended, to be able to relax just a bit about sourcing water.
One of my biggest concerns about moving at night is navigation while also paying attention to my surroundings. other people, and trying to keep the noise down. I've resisted GPS simply to avoid reliance on technology that may potentially fail. I'm pretty decent with map and compass, dead reckoning, and keeping a sense of where I am, but a GPS might be in my future, as well.
Thanks again to all who have posted. I follow this section of the forum and have learned so much from all of you. It's amazing what a little bit (or lot) of knowledge can do to help one's sense of well being.
You should definitely plan on carrying your water with you, and filtering as a last resort. In any large scale disaster, the water supply gets contaminated by chemicals and sewers. Backpacking filters do very little for chemicals, and they aren't 100% effective against microbes. They only reduce the number of pathogens, normally by about 98% or so, and it's still possible to get sick from filtered water if it's heavily contaminated to begin with. Rural water is often just as bad due to farm runoff.
One thing you can do is leave caches of food and water. For example, you could leave an MRE and gallon of water every ten miles. Just be sure to mark them as waypoints in your GPS. If anyone asks what you're doing, just tell them you're leaving geocaches for an upcoming game.
I would also suggest that you research urban exploration in your area. It's not exactly legal in all cases (stay out of locked places and you should be fine), but you wouldn't believe what's right under your nose. For example, I know of a massive storm drain that I can use to get from one side of the city to the other without surfacing. It never floods, and most of the time you don't even get your feet wet. And very few people know about it. Combine that tunnel with some railroad tracks and a few alleys, and I could walk through the entire city without being seen by anyone, except maybe a few homeless people.
If it's at the beginning of something I think you could at least drive some of the way. Things don't turn into major civil unrest immediately after a ..... (insert situation here). You may hit traffic but you can always leave your car and start walking
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You should definitely plan on carrying your water with you, and filtering as a last resort. In any large scale disaster, the water supply gets contaminated by chemicals and sewers. Backpacking filters do very little for chemicals, and they aren't 100% effective against microbes. They only reduce the number of pathogens, normally by about 98% or so, and it's still possible to get sick from filtered water if it's heavily contaminated to begin with. Rural water is often just as bad due to farm runoff.
A handy tool that some folks carry in some circles is a Sillcock key, where you can buy from just about any hardware store (and it doesn't take up too much room). It's a way to obtain water from commercial buildings (once you get permission, of course... :) ). This, of course, assumes that the infrastructure is still relatively intact and the water supply hasn't been contaminated (i.e. navigating through possible civil unrest and needing a water source, etc.).
Moose-Knuckle
09-30-15, 13:33
I would choose to move at night, as much as possible. Clear safety glasses are a vital piece of PPE to have on hand when moving at night. Just like protecting your feet, your eyes are something you desperately need. It would only take one branch to the eye to severely impact your safety.
Excellent point, one I intended to make in my second post. Gouged eyes are a real concern when moving around in the dark especially in back country / bush environments.
Moose-Knuckle
09-30-15, 13:48
A handy tool that some folks carry in some circles is a Sillcock key, where you can buy from just about any hardware store (and it doesn't take up too much room). It's a way to obtain water from commercial buildings (once you get permission, of course... :) ).
Great info, I never knew what the particular name for them was. I have entertained the idea of keeping a set of security bits with my Leatherman/socket adapter for other such scenarios. One of the skills that is on my short list to begin to acquire is lock picking. Nothing for illegal means mind you just another skill set/tool in the tool box.
One of my biggest concerns about moving at night is navigation while also paying attention to my surroundings. other people, and trying to keep the noise down. I've resisted GPS simply to avoid reliance on technology that may potentially fail. I'm pretty decent with map and compass, dead reckoning, and keeping a sense of where I am, but a GPS might be in my future, as well.
Great threat. The OP sounds pretty squared away so far.
If you are evading under a martial law type of a situation, where you'd be detained if caught out and about, I'd only consider movement at night. Definitely avoid culturally built up areas and lines of communication to the max extent possible. Following railroad tracks may seem like a great idea, but doing so is just asking to get caught. Taking twice as long to get home by going the long way around, through sh!tty terrain, will yield much better results than taking short cuts via routes that are more easily traveled.
When you do have to cross an LOC, stop and observe first. Always be conscious of the spore you leave behind. One of the keys to success is to be patient and avoid "get-home-itis." I'd plan on your trip taking two or three days.
Like the OP, I don't count on GPS being available, but having one in case it is still working isn't a bad idea. A map, compass, ranger beads and a good knowledge of land navigation will serve you well.
Good topic, OP. Hoping to hear more insight from more knowledgable folks. One thing that gives me pause about night movement is the fact of seeing where you're going, assuming you don't have the benefit of NODs and navigate via ambient lighting.
As with any topic concerning this particular sub-forum there are innumerable scenarios that can/will play out. In my OP I mentioned night time movement due to the concealment that low light / no light conditions afford. But as we are all aware there is no free lunch. With moving in the dark the threat of mechanical injuries rise exponentially. Lack of visibility will affect everything from landmark identification to keeping in contact with other members of your group. Which brings up things like NODs, cat eyes, etc.
In his blog (SHTF School) about his story of urban survival during the Bosnian War, Selco explains that they NEVER were out and about during the day time. This was due to the amount of sniper kills. They only moved around after dark.
I also seem to recall Eric Haney stating that is was night time land nav that separated the men from the boys at 1st-SFOD-D Selection. The stars are your friends!
Way back in the day, the evasion portion of Air Force SERE training was exclusive night time land nav. It was no joke, but if you move cautiously and slowly enough to test questionable footing, you can avoid injury.
The rods in your eyes are responsible for your night vision, as well as your peripheral vision and provide you with movement detection. Amazingly enough, once the your rods finally adjust to the dark (about 30-40 min), you can see pretty well at night, even with out cultural lighting. If you need to observe something in low light condition don't look directly at it, use your peripheral vision (cones) and you'll be able to see it better.
Again, thanks for all of the information. I was hesitant to start this thinking it might be a waste of time, but I've picked up a lot of very, very valuable info and suggestions.
I am going to go ahead and pick up a GPS (suggestions welcome for which one) working under the assumption that it will be nice to have as long as the system and orbiting infrastructure remains functional. It seems like GPS will save me time trying to figure out where I am should the need arise and may prevent me from getting too focused on a map/compass and figuring out where I am instead of paying attention to the environment, other people, etc.
The advice about taking the long way around was excellent. My maps (street and topo) covering the area between my job and my wife and home are centered on those areas and don't cover much of the surrounding areas. I basically printed just the parts I felt like I would need and obviously don't have much of the surrounding area. I may need to expand my map coverage a bit, and a GPS will also help there.
Finally, the advice to avoid "get-home-it-is" is important. In my planning and consideration of this subject, I've always had it in the back of my mind that home is where I want to be and that I need to get there as quickly as possible. I'm going to need to adjust the stuff I'd plan to take on this journey a bit to factor in longer travel time. I'll also need to adjust my wife's stash as well as the cached items I have with her.
I ordered several four-way sillcock keys and will incorporate them into my planning. There appears to be a complete subculture in urban exploration, and it deserves much more consideration and research.
Thanks, again, folks. Y'all are great.
Is a bicycle an option for you? Given the distance to your wife's work going by bicycle could significantly reduce your travel time while affording your the opportunity to take smaller lesser known paths.
A bike that has tires that are good for speed on pavement and work well on gravel or dirt could be useful. You could also attach saddlebags to store water, spare tubes, and other supplies.
Moose-Knuckle
10-03-15, 02:15
There appears to be a complete subculture in urban exploration, and it deserves much more consideration and research.
Yes there is, Google Don Wildman. He is an urban explorer with shows on History and Travel channels. He got me hooked!
HansTheHobbit
10-03-15, 18:10
Regarding the GPS, I would recommend a used Garmin GPSMAP 60 series. The only thing you really need is the ability to program waypoints from lat/long coordinates. If you can find one with a real compass built in, I believe that's the 60cs if I remember correctly, then it's very helpful. If not, then I recommend getting a small button compass and fixing it to the antenna, which is helpful because you don't have to constantly be changing screens and then waiting for the map to reload. There's nothing like being above treeline in a lightning storm waiting for a map to load, lol. The reason for the compass is that it's somewhat difficult to tell if you're walking towards the next waypoint, as you have to walk about twenty yards for the computer to approximate your heading and change the orientation of the map. If you have a compass, then you can set the map to fixed, then use the compass to get your heading. The map will always tell you your exact heading to the next waypoint, so it's super quick. Just glance at the map, then take a quick compass heading. It sure beats walking around in circles trying to get the map to track up. The reason I recommend the 60 series is that they have a more powerful antenna than other models. This is extremely important in my experience. Even the more powerful antennas are still somewhat effected by clouds and tree cover, so the bigger the antenna the better. They also have some nice features that the lesser models don't, but they also require a little experience to put to good use. Memory is also handy if you're planning on downloading maps and programming lots of routes. For example, you might program different routes that could be used for different scenarios, like a direct one if conditions are safe and a concealed one in case the natives start to get brave.
I would also recommend putting the GPS in foil to harden against EMP. If I remember correctly, GPS satellites are hardened against EMP, so as long as you protect the unit itself you should be good. Out of all the SHTF scenarios people are talking about, I think EMP is the most likely, and it's certainly the kind of thing that could easily make you walk home. Also store the batteries separately in the original packaging, or they might corrode from long term storage. Be sure to pack plenty of batteries. GPSs eat them like crazy.
The bike is an outstanding idea. If you got a mountain bike, then maybe you could use the dirt roads to stay out of sight more. It would extend your distance, but you'd be traveling three times as fast.
Regarding the urban exploration, be careful about what you find on the internet. Most of those people have been arrested at least once for criminal trespassing, including a few young people I know. As long as you don't climb any fences or sneak inside a locked building, then you're in pretty good shape. The property owners can ask you to leave if you're on private property, like in an industrial park, but as long as you didn't bypass anything then you're pretty much safe from any charges. As far as going through fields and private land, I think it's generally fairly safe as long as there aren't any no trespassing signs. This is one of the reasons I recommend getting a GPS. If anyone asks what you're doing, tell them you're geocaching. Lots of geocaches are on private property, so you have a plausible reason to argue that you thought the owner was okay with you being there. The absence of a geocache doesn't mean anything either, as half the geocaches listed on the internet have either been removed or stolen. BTW, you should do some actual geocaching if you have time. It's the best way by far to learn how to use your GPS.
I would go through as much undeveloped land as possible, and i would travel at night. Use cover and concealment, move quietly but swiftly.
I would go through as much undeveloped land as possible, and i would travel at night. Use cover and concealment, move quietly but swiftly.
This is the way I've started thinking...using parks, green belts, creek beds, etc. My biggest concern with these is that they form choke points at some point. I can't believe the amount of time I spend while driving looking at the surrounding area and trying to figure out how I would negotiate it, where I might find shelter or some kind of defensive position in which to rest or sleep.
Great thread
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This is the way I've started thinking...using parks, green belts, creek beds, etc. My biggest concern with these is that they form choke points at some point. I can't believe the amount of time I spend while driving looking at the surrounding area and trying to figure out how I would negotiate it, where I might find shelter or some kind of defensive position in which to rest or sleep.
Really tricky, I know. Urban areas are the most difficult to navigate out of in the event of a disaster. You also want to juggle the best time to move. In the initial panic the roads will be clogged with people attempting to flee from whatever. It may be worth it to bug in and wait a few days before moving out if it permits.
My advice is try to not hit as many choke points as possible, if it is inevitable... move through them as quickly and silently as possible. Stick to the outskirts and move away from populated area as quickly as possible.
Oh... and be armed.
Outlander Systems
07-03-16, 11:59
Sit down and develop a plan.
Determine a primary route, and then an alternate should the primary route fail.
Do a couple of dry-runs via vehicle, and then do it on foot.
Generally speaking, instant events leading to total gridlock are rare. Should things decay into rioting looters in the street; there's usually an obvious build-up to those types of events that are very apparent. The best COA would be to not put yourself in the position of entering an area with denied/limited safe access (i.e. Commuting into Ferguson during the riotous peak.)
During "Snowmageddon" in Atlanta, the roads were a parking lot, and one coworker hoofed roughly 15 miles to his house.
YMMV
I would go through as much undeveloped land as possible, and i would travel at night. Use cover and concealment, move quietly but swiftly.
Anyone who's done a night land nav course in the military across relatively undeveloped military training land could probably attest to the idea that undetected swift night movement across undeveloped land probably isn't happening for most people.
Anyone who's done a night land nav course in the military across relatively undeveloped military training land could probably attest to the idea that undetected swift night movement across undeveloped land probably isn't happening for most people.
Agreed.
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Anyone who's done a night land nav course in the military across relatively undeveloped military training land could probably attest to the idea that undetected swift night movement across undeveloped land probably isn't happening for most people.
Night land nav in the Army was an eye opening experience for me.
Good thread. Subscribed.
3ACR_Scout
07-14-16, 23:44
The only realistic scenario I can think of that would force you to walk is civil unrest or natural disaster. In civil unrest, you wouldn't want to be out in the open, so that leaves natural disaster.
A good example of this is the March 2011 Tohoku earthquake in Japan (the one that caused the tsunami and damaged the Fukushima nuclear plant). While the earthquake didn't do much damage to Tokyo, it knocked out the electricity for a significant time. I have family in Japan and heard two stories of people who were forced to walk a considerable distance after the event. One was a young man who was riding the Shinkansen (a.k.a. "the Bullet Train") through a 15 km long tunnel when the electricity cut out. The train stopped in the middle of the tunnel, and the passengers had to walk about 7 km just to get out of the tunnel. The second was a woman who had taken the train to work outside of Tokyo and had to walk through the night (about 20 miles) to get back to her home in the city. It would be interesting to hear about more experiences like this from that disaster, but Japan is also a much more orderly society, so there was almost no unrest to speak of associated with the earthquake and tsunami, and I wouldn't be surprised if store and restaurant owners were handing out water to people like these who had to walk home. Regardless, these are real world examples of what you might encounter just as a result of a "straightforward" natural disaster, without an EMP strike or anything fancy.
Following railroad tracks may seem like a great idea, but doing so is just asking to get caught.
I was thinking the same thing - railroad tracks tend to run through the not-so-nice parts of town, so you're pretty likely to encounter someone unfriendly if you follow them for any distance in an urban area.
Night land nav in the Army was an eye opening experience for me.
Hey, as long as they hang chemlights on each of our waypoints, we'll be good!
Good discussion!
Dave
Hey, as long as they hang chemlights on each of our waypoints, we'll be good!
Good discussion!
Dave
Not fair!!! They did not do that for us!!! ;-)
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3ACR_Scout
07-16-16, 12:00
Not fair!!! They did not do that for us!!! ;-)
I actually always felt like the chemlights were cheating me out of a better land nav training experience. I was pretty good at it, so I wanted to find the points myself without any addtional help.
Not to get off topic, but I had a funny experience on a day land nav course at Fort Bragg. I got to where I was sure one of my points had to be, and it was no where to be found. I boxed around and around in the woods and finally found a small clearing with the point in the center. The markers were a sign on the top of a 4x4 post, and a recent brush clearing fire (which they do regularly at Bragg) had burnt the base of the post, and it fell over. The post and sign were lying on the ground, and I guess no one had bothered to check it before that exercise.
Dave
Horned Toad
07-16-16, 19:15
Interesting thread
Some thoughts on this
I am sure somewhere there are manuals with basic patrolling in them. Read the parts that apply to security while moving. Three miles an hour is way to fast to move if you are worried about bumping into trouble.
Don’t get caught up in the fallacy that you need all this stuff to walk 30 miles. If it’s a real SHTF scenario of any type, you are going to make the attempt no matter what, right. Water would be nice, 5000 calories would be nice, if you don’t have it, you are still going to go.
I would have maps, not a GPS with primary and alternate routes along a corridor that I wanted to travel. Know the major guardrails of the sides of your corridor. Don’t get hung up on going a particular way. Walk as much as you can in small sections before hand on the weekends. Make notes on your maps. Stay far away from houses with dogs. Look at tall object that you can use as land marks, radio towers, buildings.
Some things that would be nice
Broken in hiking shoes with wool socks
Some sort of subdued clothing
Small backpack
Water
Power bars
Some sort of flashlight or two
Lighter
First aid kit
Bug spray
Multi tool
Good wire cutters (I am not jumping a chain-link fence)
Small binos
Pistol
Clear eye pro for night (used to be on the packing list for mouton phase)
I would want to look like some hiker who left their Subaru, rather than a man on a mission.
As far as timelines I would hope you would have 48 hours or so before things got real crazy. I think going back and trying to find some time lines on Karina would be a good start.
Last thought for worst case, don’t mark your house on your maps. You know where you live. Put some waypoints past where you want to go, in case someone else gets you maps.
daddyusmaximus
07-16-16, 21:30
Interesting thread
Some thoughts on this
I am sure somewhere there are manuals with basic patrolling in them. Read the parts that apply to security while moving. Three miles an hour is way to fast to move if you are worried about bumping into trouble.
Very true, even more so at night. You can move quickly, or securely, but not both at the same time without having a team on overwatch.
Last thought for worst case, don’t mark your house on your maps. You know where you live. Put some waypoints past where you want to go, in case someone else gets you maps.
Good opsec move.
Regarding night movement, eye pro and footwear with good ankle supposrt is crucial. I've come close to losing an eye and twisting an ankle hundreds of times in the middle of the night crossing even relatively mild terrain.
There is a lot of really good info in this thread, some good common themes. Avoid people and where you have the option heavily used travel routes as there's likely to be blockages. If you don't have the option of avoidance, blend in with the way folks look and are acting and keep moving til you get clear of them. That said building up travel route options will be key. Great advice to scout your route choices in chunks. Roll it into Sunday hikes or bike rides in the daytime. See how far you get at a moderate pace and how hard it is to maintain SA the faster your moving, i.e. "never had time to brake before the deer jumped from the treeline into the road".
I am a bike rider and have always liked the idea of weaving bike travel into a bug out plan. Yeah lots of downsides but if you decide to move early before people get desparate,great way to travel under the radar. By day, urban portion of your route if no other choice, very few, non juvenile, bad guys see a bike as an appealing mode of transport, no one will covet them early on. As the goal will be to get through the urban portion quickly, during the day unscathed, they let you cover ground more quickly than on foot. Not great at night but not bad at dusk or dawn.
A word about traveling at night or through neighborhoods in a city. I'm a life long city dweller, recently moved out to country. I know lots of folks who commute into cities for work and think they "know" them. They don't and the city dwellers can spot them a mile away. I would use a great deal of caution selecting even a partial urban route if you aren't from the neighborhoods along the route. You just won't know what is their normal and what is "wrong". Similar, I'd advise against urban travel routes at night, unless you are from those neighborhoods. As I said above if you have no option, move as quickly as possible without running and don't get hung up or try to hole up there.
I am not a fan of railroad tracks, especially at night. They are not lit, bad parts of town, walking on the ballast is noisy and very easy to turn an ankle or worse just tripping on rails or ties let alone the trash and wood and metal debris that you see along side the tracks that won't be visible at night.
Again great thread.
Outlander Systems
07-17-16, 11:27
http://www.rickmann-uk.com/wp-content/uploads/Lift.jpg
http://youtu.be/ilJAczgfmHk
3ACR_Scout
07-17-16, 16:21
I am sure somewhere there are manuals with basic patrolling in them.
There are several Army publications out there, including the Ranger Handbook and FM 3-21.8 (formerly FM 7-8), The Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad. Both have chapters on patrolling, but it's a mix of troop leading procedures (planning and executing a small unit patrol) and tactic and techniques. However, it's definitely something that you have to practice if you're serious about "tactical" movement, especially at night.
When I was an ROTC cadet, we obviously didn't have much in the way of equipment or vehicles, so we did a lot of patrolling, including at night. My school at a large forest on campus, so we were able to patrol in both built up areas and woods, during the day and at night. It was no Ranger School (which I never went through), but it was good experience for learning the basics of individual movement. Tactical movement can be a slow, deliberate process, and I think it's important to learn the patience that is required for moving while maintaining an awareness of your surroundings. Something that has always stuck with me is the need to pause periodically to take in the sounds and smells around you so that you know what is normal for that environment to help you recognize when something is out of place. When starting a patrol in the woods, the first step to walk off the road and into the bush, and then kneel or lie down and listen for about 10 minutes to atune yourself to the environment before you move off. Throughout the patrol, you make periodic short halts to listen for movement around you, or for silence - when the woods have gone quiet because something is out of place. The same could be true in an urban environment, but you'd need to adjust to the situation. For example, you might just pause periodically at street corners to listen and observe, or when you move off the street into a park or golf course, but you'd have to avoid standing out too much to avoid attracting attention. The main point is to resist just barreling along in a rush to get where you're going and counting on your eyes and ears picking up threats as you're hoofing it.
Dave
daddyusmaximus
07-17-16, 22:29
Them bamboo trains work just fine.
Thanks to all of you for your contributions. I started this thread in hopes of getting the great feedback that it as generated. I have learned a lot from you folks and am grateful for the knowledge.
Keep it coming!!
Good topic. Every time I have dwelt on the matter I always go back to night time movement. Provided of course one has the luxury of time.
As for day time movement, smoke devices are still available mainly from paint ball sites. If one had to, smoke can afford one some invaluable concealment.
Not entirely showing off those goodies may make some think you will have more valued items worth chasing. Could also have the reverse effect.
When taking my POV to work I have to ride through the hood. I drive an old beater and keep a crap ball cap in center console. I also wear an odd pair of sunglasses that I only wear in this area. It is what I call urban cammo. I try to look a skelly as possible. Dudes moving weight do the same thing. **** driving on those 20s, the smart ones use a Prius or similar for a clip of more. I always figure the best fight is the one avoided with deceit if need be. I know it sounds silly but people I work with don't recognize me at all and I have been challenged coming in the gate before for looking so shady.
Very interesting thread.
lots of good advice, which I'll be looking into myself. A good pair of radios, gps, compass, athletic tape, and a bike would be good investments. Plan and Practice your route if you are serious about it, and have alternate routes if needed.
Id also always be thinking "what if" you weren't where you thought you'd be when you needed to get home or BO.
Worse "unplanned" case for me... It's a weekend, the wife and I are in different parts of town doing different things.
Worse case planned... I'm out of state or worse, OCONUS on business, which is part of my job. THIS is the one I lose
Sleep over.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-08-16, 05:35
There are a lot of "if's" with a situation like this. If things are as bad as you make them sound, then I would be breaking a lot of the normal "rules." Being in really good shape and having a capable four wheel drive truck/suv are a must.
My girlfriend and I are in a very similar situation to you, except throw in a bridge too. Our plan involves linking back up at home if possible and then heading to family property in north Florida. In a disaster situation, of any kind, I feel like the best thing that one can do is get the hell away from populated areas.
All the bad shit happens in the city/suburbs. Everything about the country is better. I would try and use my vehicle to get home but if I had to I could walk. At a good pace I could make it the 20 ish miles home in about half a day. I'm an avid backpacker and regularly do long jaunts.
I feel like a lot of people have a fairly glorified view of what "SHTF" looks like though. Short of a large scale, surprise invasion from a foreign nation or an uprising/large scale rioting, you will have the ability to get home without really having to worry about being sneaky. When I say large scale rioting too, I mean like rioting we've never seen before, I mean the kind of rioting were going to see if Trump takes away the entitlements. Most situations you should be able to see coming and plan accordingly.
Because I don't have NVG equipment, I would probably prefer to move during the day and in as low profile a way as possible.
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Being in really good shape and having a capable four wheel drive truck/suv are a must.
Yup. These are the two biggest things IMHO. You can prep to your hearts content, but if you cant make it through the first few days, it wont matter.
Now... What I'm seeing more and more going up are these "4x4 proof" barricades going up on the edges of all the interstates. If you get stuck there, you are going to have to breach the darn barricade to cut off through the terrain. Seems like these things are almost everywhere now. Still going to have to get the bag out of the back and ruck it. Ideally, we'll see anything coming and be out before things gridlock, but you never know...
I have found that in the end only two things will be for sure:
What happens won't be what you prepped for.
And you won't be where you wish you were when that does happen.
I have found that in the end only two things will be for sure:
What happens won't be what you prepped for.
And you won't be where you wish you were when that does happen.
Yup.. And the best plan in the world will probably go to crap, as will your back-up plan. Have 3-4 options.
Expect the worst, while hoping for the best. Meanwhile, embrace the suck...
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