View Full Version : Of springs and rust...
Many people love CS springs. Others strongly dislike them, claiming that rust is an issue. Rust is a big problem if it occurs on a spring due to the fact that the surface of the spring is what is doing a lot of the "springing". A rusty spring is much more compromised than say, a rusty slide, carrier, bolt, or whatever.
I pitted the Colt Mil-spec 17-7 spring against the Sprinco White CS Moly-plated spring. The "humidity cabinet" also goes by the name "Dishwasher". No soap was used, and it was placed on heated-dry and the springs left in until cycle completed.
I also pitted the Colt Mil-spec extractor spring against the SAW Ken Elmore "Green" extractor spring.
Absolutely NO rust was observed on the Ken Elmore extractor spring, or the Colt action spring, even when white paper-towels were roughly swabbed over their surfaces. The other two springs rusted very notably, as depicted. All springs were used in my carbine previously, so as to have removed any passivated/painted/washed type surface treatments, as one would find on the springs in their "new in wrapper" state which would not represent an item in-use.
http://i62.tinypic.com/1f8mc8.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/2v2cy08.jpg
ar_mcadams
10-11-15, 08:05
Arnt all the springs on a Colt stainless? I don't know of any commercial AR15 LPK that use all stainless springs. I have looked and looked.
Recently opened a brand new Colt Delta ring assembly in the package to find the Leaf spring badly rusted.
Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
The Elmore extractor spring isn't CS if that was the implication. Put one of his "extreme duty" magazine springs in the humidity cabinet and see how it turns out...
The Elmore extractor spring isn't CS if that was the implication. Put one of his "extreme duty" magazine springs in the humidity cabinet and see how it turns out...
No, it is not CS. It fared VERY well, as you can see. I did not know what it was, nor am I too terribly worried, only that it does well, and it does.
BufordTJustice
10-14-15, 11:16
Even a small residue of dishwasher detergent can cause a lot of rust. Obviously, the CS is much more sensitive to corrosion.
Detents aren't the same either on vismod guns. I learned this the hard way running high volume arctic training after my Gen I Magpul MIAD fragmented from the extreme cold and suppressor heavy blaster.
Went to replace it in the host nation barracks, and noticed that the selector detent was corroding before my eyes, as in fizzling. Craziest thing I've ever seen environmentally on the AR15, and I've spent a lot of time with these guns from extreme cold conditions in Korea, to jungles of Panama, from coast to coast in the US, to the Middle East and Europe.
WS6: Thanks for this thread. People that ask me what springs to go with can now have a place to look.
Once again showing that the TDP guns have had every component raked over the coals through a series of testing and evaluation that most manufacturers don't know about, and don't care about.
Detents aren't the same either on vismod guns. I learned this the hard way running high volume arctic training after my Gen I Magpul MIAD fragmented from the extreme cold and suppressor heavy blaster.
Went to replace it in the host nation barracks, and noticed that the selector detent was corroding before my eyes, as in fizzling. Craziest thing I've ever seen environmentally on the AR15, and I've spent a lot of time with these guns from extreme cold conditions in Korea, to jungles of Panama, from coast to coast in the US, to the Middle East and Europe.
WS6: Thanks for this thread. People that ask me what springs to go with can now have a place to look.
Once again showing that the TDP guns have had every component raked over the coals through a series of testing and evaluation that most manufacturers don't know about, and don't care about.
What's interesting is that the mil-spec extractor spring rusted, but the spring made "by" SAW for NSW 15 years ago, did not.
Interesting test. I thought Colt was using a copper colored spring?
Interesting test. I thought Colt was using a copper colored spring?
They are, but after some use, it comes off. That extractor spring probably has around 6-800 rounds on it.
I have continued my corrosion testing to include JP's tuned and polished spring. However, it failed (all 3 that I ordered...) before they got to my house...
I am disappointed in the JP "polished and tuned" springs I ordered. I am a corrosion-phobe, and test things beyond realism when it comes to that aspect of performance. Why? It's humid where I live. I've had firearms damaged by rust before even in less humid areas. The 3 springs I ordered arrived pre-corroded in their wrappers. Now, it wasn't BAD, but you have to understand how springs work. The surface of a spring is VERY important to the properties of it. Moreso than the core or intermediate material, regarding its "ability to spring". What's more, half of the description of these things is "polished". They aren't too "polishy and slick" when they are rusted on the surface. Rust by nature tends to be a bit rough. So what did I do? I popped one of the corroded springs into my dish-washer. Why? It simulates what I might take the rifle through regarding humidity and rain at an all-day training course, or hunting. The wash cycle is not even close to done yet, and the spring is looking...rough. As in, like a Cheeto, after about 15 minutes. Might be good in a competition gun, but for a duty rifle that may ride in a hot, humid police vehicle, or be taken out on a call in the rain, or trained with, or hunted with...I'd make a difference choice. It not only failed my rather "tough" testing, it arrived rusted in what appeared to be an almost air-tight package.
Rust can clearly be seen evidenced both on the blue paper inside the wrapper, and to the right of the rust spots on the wrapper, seen on the surface of the spring.
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13254737_815213974101_1246588540199483284_o.jpg
I have not contacted JP, because this is not a customer service or product failure issue, it is a design concept flaw of using un-coated music-wire in the wrong environmental application. While one can argue "your gun won't go in the dish-washer!", I can argue "A polished spring should not arrive corroded, and the fact that it did indicates that the process will likely continue at any out-door match, if it can take hold in a warehouse within the safety of its factory packaging."
I'd contact customer service if a product arrived corroded inside the packaging.
Now I'm getting fidgety about the LPK I have from DSGArms. My corrosion-OCD is flaring up.
556BlackRifle
05-31-16, 08:36
I'd contact customer service if a product arrived corroded inside the packaging.
Now I'm getting fidgety about the LPK I have from DSGArms. My corrosion-OCD is flaring up.
I agree. I think you should let them know it arrived that way. Could be a bad batch or could be product deficiencies but either way, I think it would be a good idea to contact customer service and see what happens with a set of replacement springs.
On the original test, I was surprised that the Springco - CS action springs fared worse than Colt in that test. Thanks for taking the time to perform these tests. The results are very interesting.
I agree. I think you should let them know it arrived that way. Could be a bad batch or could be product deficiencies but either way, I think it would be a good idea to contact customer service and see what happens with a set of replacement springs.
On the original test, I was surprised that the Springco - CS action springs fared worse than Colt in that test. Thanks for taking the time to perform these tests. The results are very interesting.
JP uses Music Wire. It is a high-carbon spring steel. Nothing was "wrong" with my springs, based on this information. I don't think JP can do anything about physics. I knew they were of a very easily rusting material when I bought them, and file it under "buyer be informed". In my dish-washer test, the JP spring looked many times worse than the Sprinco.
I could send it back to Brownells, for what, $7 shipping? I could "make" JP take it back? I dunno, the juice isn't worth the squeeze, and I don't feel I was dealt poorly with, so meh. I dunno. Maybe I'll ask to trade it for some of their gas rings, which actually did perform great for me.
You can have your cake and eat it, too... with a Tubbs flatwire buffer spring that's 17-7 and coated. I've used the AR15 and AR10 versions and the latter is stronger than milspec and more "linear" than a Sprinco green. The Tubbs are a pain to install/remove, though.
You can have your cake and eat it, too... with a Tubbs flatwire buffer spring that's 17-7 and coated. I've used the AR15 and AR10 versions and the latter is stronger than milspec and more "linear" than a Sprinco green. The Tubbs are a pain to install/remove, though.
Link? Only showing CS from them, not 17-7 coated.
Their website and Brownells are outdated. Last three springs I got from Brownells clearly state 17-7 on the packaging. I can snap you a pic if you're interested.
Outlander Systems
05-31-16, 16:24
Great info.
As a resident of a humid environment, who also spends a lot of time outdoors, corrosion-resistance is a factor I consider with a lot of my firearms-related purchases.
Ironically, on my way home, I was thinking about running a similar test.
Thanks for saving me the trouble, and thanks for the outstanding information.
Excellent and informative work, WS6!
This specific test aside, Im a little surprised to hear that some people have been experiencing corrosion issues with their springs. I live in a fairly humid environment, but i haven't ever really noticed any corrosion. Im going to start paying closer attention to this. I regularly slather the carbine action spring and the extractor spring with lubricant (slip 2000 ewl). Am i the only one who does this? I would think that a coated action spring couldn't corrode?
Anyone ever tried Eezox on any of the non-stainless springs?
556BlackRifle
06-01-16, 21:20
JP uses Music Wire. It is a high-carbon spring steel. Nothing was "wrong" with my springs, based on this information. I don't think JP can do anything about physics. I knew they were of a very easily rusting material when I bought them, and file it under "buyer be informed". In my dish-washer test, the JP spring looked many times worse than the Sprinco.
I could send it back to Brownells, for what, $7 shipping? I could "make" JP take it back? I dunno, the juice isn't worth the squeeze, and I don't feel I was dealt poorly with, so meh. I dunno. Maybe I'll ask to trade it for some of their gas rings, which actually did perform great for me.
You're right, I guess it is what it is but I just don't think it should rust inside the plastic bag. And I also agree on shipping back if you have to pay. IMO JP should take the springs back because they are rusting inside the sealed plastic bag - but if they don't, it wouldn't be worth my time or money.
Thanks for the info. Much appreciated!!
Oil it and shoot it. If it works, don't worry about a little rust.
StainlessSlide
06-08-16, 03:55
There have been some questions in the past about which springs are CS or standard spring steel or music wire, and which are 17-7. The way I tell the difference between stainless and non-stainless springs is with a spark test on a grinder.
This involves lightly pressing the open end of the spring against a grinding wheel. Stainless springs will give no sparks or occasional sparks with heavier pressure, carbon steel springs (including CS) will give a bushy spark with plenty of branching.
Here is some more info on spark testing in general
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing
If you have known CS and stainless springs, it's easy to see the difference for yourself.
Of course this takes a few thou off the end of the spring, and cuts through the anti-corrosion layer of coated CS springs, but this shouldn't be too significant at the very end.
I don't like corrosion on springs, because the surface of the spring is the most stressed part, and pitting here can lead to cracks.
I use GI straight 20 rnd mags for my 5.45x39 AR which mainly shoots corrosive 7N6. I bought two batches from Brownells, first ones were with CS springs, the second batch was stainless steel springs. After two years of use, the CS springs were showing some surface rust. Zero rust on the stainless springs. That's about as close to an 'apples to apples' comparison I can think of.
Pushbutton2
06-19-16, 16:28
What's 17-7 and CS?
What's 17-7 and CS?
17-7 is a type of stainless steel. CS is chrome silicon.
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