Stick with the Aimpoint or try a low powered variable optic?

[Coal Dragger]

I hate to bring this up, and if my search skills failed to yield a thread that already beat this subject to death I apologize.

I'm currently trying to do a few upgrades to my best AR-15, and have come to a wall of dithering and analysis paralysis concerning my choice of sights. The rifle...er carbine is a Colt M4A1 "SOCOM II", which for those unfamiliar is the new M4AI profile barrel under a Daniel Defense RIS II free float hand guard that allows the front sight post to peek up with rails in front and back of it. This being a civilian model it has a 16" 1:7 barrel instead of the 14.5" found for sale commonly through various sources, and no effort was made by Colt to make any of the M203 cuts in the side of the barrel. Long story short it is a bit heavy compared to a regular 6920 with a Govt' profile barrel and short M4 hand guards. On the plus side it is proving to be pretty accurate even with a beat up old Aimpoint Comp M2 on top of it. The only non stock parts other than the Aimpoint, is a Geissele SD3G trigger which I do like pretty well. I also have a Surefire Warcomp muzzle device back ordered in the event I get around to applying for a tax stamp, so I have a suppressor host.

I plan to find out just how accurate it is here shortly by mounting a Nightforce NXS 3.5-15X50 (poached from my other not so great AR...) on it and heading to the range with a bench rest, rear bag, and some hand loaded ammo of known good accuracy as well as some M855, and some XM193. I'm going to attempt an accuracy evaluation as close to Molon's methodology as my equipment, skill, and time allow in an effort to determine if a magnified optic is justified on this carbine.

Assuming that it does display above average accuracy (say 10 shot groups that hold 1.0-1.25 MOA with 77gr MK's) I will then try to decide if it is worth spending the money on a low powered variable optic. My question for those that have tried both an Aimpoint and any of the current crop of AR oriented low powered variables is which do you like better? With the follow up question of which of the low powered variables are worth a damn?

I would like to have illumination that is daylight bright if possible, and as close to a 1X low end as possible if I do decide on a variable. I'm also open to something like an ACOG, but wonder if the low powered variables offer more versatility and have acceptable durability.

My days of needing to use a weapon for serious social situations ended when I left the Marine Corps, and I didn't have a choice in equipment then anyway, but I'd still like to retain at least one long gun that is capable of being used for that sort of thing if needs be and the Colt is most likely going to be it. I live in western South Dakota, so we have lots of open spaces out here, hence the potential interest in something with a bit of magnification.

Any help, advice, or thoughts are appreciated. Or flaming if my search-fu really sucks.

[Tigereye]

This may help https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?104-1-4-Variable-optic-options
I have a DDM4V1 with a DD lite rail with the FSP cutout and mounted a Vortex PST1-4 on it. I've been pleased with it for my situation but haven't shot it past 300 yds. The gun has a Geissele SSA trigger and shoots 3/4" groups at 100 yds with 77r smk reloads. I think there are a lot of good choices and better ones than I made for the variable optic. I would go with a variable in your situation.

[GH41]

How old are you and what is your budget??

[wigbones]

I have a 16" that started with a PRO and was replaced by a vortex viper 1-4x. So far it's been great. And the warranty is unbeatable. I save the Aimpoints for the shorter barrels.

[Coal Dragger]

36 years old, I do wear contact lenses but have good corrected vision. I've always had a bit of dot flare with the aimpoint ever since I got it in Iraq when I was 25 years old. I understand almost everyone sees this in Aimpoints, and I don't see any dot flare at all on a Trijicon RMR I have mounted on a Freedom Arms .454 Casull.

My budget is relatively open, although I doubt I'll willingly spend more that $1500 on glass unless it is really exceptional. I'd love to spend under $1K, but doubt I'll get the solid durability I want.

I've been able to lay my hands on the following:

1.) Nightforce NXS 1-4×24 which I liked for size and weight, but the illumination was dim and the reticle was very fine. Has a BDC which is a plus. I know how durable Nightforce scopes are though, and like my other one.

2.) Vortex Viper HD II 1-6×24, nice glass, more maginfication, huge eye box, BDC, and daylight bright illumination. The control knob for the illumination is also nice. I also appreciate the turret caps to keep them from getting knocked off zero. Unfortunately this scope is bulky and heavy, and even more expensive than the Nightforce.

3.) Nikon M223 1.5-6×24, 30mm tube with the BDC and illumination. This is a budget option for me at $629.00 through Midway with free shipping. I looked at one elsewhere, nice glass, appears to have a useful reticle, good illumination, reasonable wieght. Downside is no 1× low end, illumination controls are slightly wonky buttons, no turret caps, and Nikon's warranty is not nearly as good as Nightforce or Vortex. Of course this scope costs only half as much.

[jstalford]

I've gone through a couple aim points and as much as I like them, the blurry dot drives me nuts.

Right now I have a Kahles K16i and it is crazy good. Glass is amazing, fov is huge, for is bright, and it's relatively light.

You can find demo models from Eurooptic regularly for 1950. Over your budget but it's the best option IMHO.

On the lower end, I'd recommend the green bdc ret trijicon accupower. A friend just got one and has nothing but praise for it.

It's not as bright as the vortex or kahles/swaro, but it is at the bottom end of daylight bright.

You can get a 10% off coupon from Jesse Tischauer on here making them $638 from optics planet.


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[WS6]

I really like the T2/G33 combo. It's lighter than any other daylight visible illuminated 1-4x variable once mounts get thrown into the equation, it's durable, it's unbeatable by a tube-optic on 1x, and I have found the glass to be quite good enough for the purpose at hand (0-300y).

[Coal Dragger]

Some good options mentioned that I hadn't considered.

My planned range session today is getting rained out unfortunately.

[dwhitehorne]

I've got an Aimpoint on one rifle and variable scopes on the others. It is hard to go wrong with the VX-R. Light weight and a daylight bright red dot in the center. The Leupold is a great price for trying out a variable optic and not breaking the bank on some of the $1000+ models. David

[samuse]

I'm a big fan of the NXS 1-4. I have two with zero stops and they track perfectly. The turrets make it much easier to shoot different loads. I zero mine at 100 with MK262 and know my clicks to 200 with other ammo so I can still use the BDC if I want (I usually dial).

I think you'll be plenty happy with the accuracy of that barrel but base it all on 77 grain bullets.

I shot a Knight's 16" upper today that shot the same with XM193 as it did with MK262. It absolutely loved 69gr SMKs though.

[GH41]

I will second the VXR but price wasn't driving my decision. Weight was. The VXR Patrol in a Aero Precision mount weighs under a pound. That's less than some of the scopes mentioned above without a mount. I also like the simple uncluttered reticle. A 1x4 is pretty much a point and shoot optic and I don't see the need for a busy reticle in a low powered scope. It won't turn down to a true 1X but it's still fast enough for me. I run offset irons for close work anyway. I left AimPoint because of ageing eyes. The VXR dot is fiber optic which isn't a problem like LED is for us old guys. The one fault it has IMHO is the exposed turrets. I see no situation where they would be useful on a low powered variable.

[Coal Dragger]

I have some 69gr MK's that I haven't played with yet...

My plan is to run the XM193, and M855 as a kind of baseline to see what I can do with bulk ammo. I also have 2K Hornady 55gr FMJ's the load, and I have read that they are actually a pretty accurate bullet compared to other FMJ's, so I'll run those too. I just want to get an idea of what the barrel will do with inexpensive ammo.

My other hand loads are a 55gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, and of course the 77gr Match King load that so far has duplicated my results with MK262 (even shot to same POA=POI !).

[oberstgreup]

I have a Vortex Raxor HD II on my M&P 10 and I love it, but it is as heavy as a lead brick. However the glass is fantastic and the dot is full daylight bright. It is just as fast and easy to use as a RDS on 1x but the 6x and that great glass make a world of difference at 300 yards. For me the weight is worth it, you're going to be adding about a pound anyway for any variable power scope. My one complaint aside from the weight and cost is that you really need to add a throw lever as the magnification change is a beast without one. Vortex should do like SFWA and include one with the scope, a little screw-in one wouldn't cost them more than a buck to include.

I also have an SFWA SS Classic 1-4x and it is pretty similar to the Vortex PST 1-4x, but neither has very bright illumination. That does make them less useful than an Aimpoint for fast, close-in work. Of course they also cost about 1/3 of what the Razor HD II costs. Anything under $1k is going to mean some kind of compromise.

[johnson]

The biggest difference will probably be the extra weight, typically a full pound or more for a scope with good glass. What type of shooting do intend to do with the rifle? Do you normally shoot from stable positions or unsupported? What kind of targets and at what distances?

I had a Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x24mm and found myself either using 1x or 4x, rarely in between. I sold it because while it was great for hitting larger targets, it wasn't so great for precision/target shooting. With a $1500 budget and wide open spaces in SD you could start looking at 1-6x scopes.

I think it'd be hard to beat the Razor HD Gen 2 when considering the eyebox, glass, and illumination. Like others have said, the downside is the weight, which isn't that far off from your NF 3.5-15x.

The other option is to keep the Comp M2 and buy something like a 2.5-10x or 3-9x and swap as needed. In the meantime, use your NF on 4x or 6x and shoot at the distances you would normally shoot at and see which magnification you like better. I would also skip the Warcomp for now and put that money towards a scope mount. I don't see a point in buying a muzzle device 'in case' you buy a suppressor. Kind of a backwards way of looking at it. You're gonna have to wait 3+ months anyway for the stamp and you might change your mind next week if you want something other than a Surefire.

Just throwing some models out there.

Kahles K16i 1-6x24mm / 17.6 oz
Vortex Razor HD Gen II 1-6x24mm / 25.2 oz
Bushnell Elite Tactical 1-6.5x24mm / 18.5 oz
Burris XTR II 1-5x24mm / 21.1 oz
Leupold VX-6 1-6x24mm / 14.6 oz

[Coal Dragger]

I agree with your assessment of magnification, I have a Leupold 2.5-8×36 on a Cooper .22LR that is either at 2.5X or at 8X, and virtually never in between. The low powered variables that I have looked at would be used the same way. I am guessing 90% of variable users are the same. The only time I turn down the NXS 3.5-15×50 is on a p-dog town when mirage is so bad 15X is useless.

Another option I didn't consider would be a fixed power optic like an ACOG or Browe and use a Trijicon RMR on a 1 o'clock canted mount. I already have an RMR, I'm just not sure I want to take it off the revolver it has been living on. On the plus side such a set up is very light, gives a true RDS, and frees me up to consider different magnified choices. Downside is extra crap is now on the carbine, and I get to either go back to irons on the revolver, or buy a pistol scope (which I have considered given how accurate it is).

I did mount the NXS 3.5-15×50 yesterday in case the rain broke off, and I have to say that a 16" bbl carbine with a large scope up top looks utterly ridiculous. The objective bell nearly touches the front sight post. Strangely the weight increase didn't bother me that much. Although if I can get some vacation scheduled next September there is a Pat McNamara class being offered, and I'm sure a heavy carbine will be a chore to deal with if I can get enrolled.

As for the muzzle device, I'm not really worried about it cost wise. I do know from prior experience with my other AR that I like shooting a comp performance wise, but would like it a little less blasty. The hybrid device is supposedly pretty good, I'll know soon hopefully.

I'd love to see all the scopes on your list, but I've only had a chance to lay hands on the Vortex. I'm still curious about the new Nikon 1.5-6×24 on a 30mm tube, the glass seemed nice and the illumination was good I just hate being a beta tester. Price is very attractive though, normal retail of $799.99, Midway supposedly will sell for $629.99.