View Full Version : Why should I upgrade to a progressive? $$$ related
Eurodriver
10-04-15, 08:50
I've been reloading on a single stage for a while. I got setup and instructed by williejc. Great guy. He did an excellent job teaching me the basics.
I want to reload 300BLK and 9mm faster than I'm currently doing it. It takes me about an hour to load 50 rounds of either from start to finish on a single stage. And that's on a good day. I'm looking at moving up to a progressive, but I am having a hard time justifying the price.
A Dillon 550 for one caliber is about $560 when you get everything you need.
If I reload my own 9mm it comes to about $190/1000 if I buy in bulk. I can buy 1000 9mm rounds shipped for $220 currently.
300BLK and 5.56mm aren't much cheaper to reload than new ammo either. (Ozark has 20rds of 300BLK for $8.50 a box)
I really want a progressive and the ability to start cranking out ammo but when you sit down and think $560 for the press, plus additional caliber dies, plus ~$200 for primers and bullets... that would buy me a ton of ammo. It's a tough pill to swallow. I'd have to load like 15,000 rounds of ammo to pay for the press!
On the other hand, reloading is fun, I enjoy it, and I'm sure my enjoyment level would increase tremendously if it was easier and faster. But my bottom line goal is lowering my cost of ammo.
Thoughts?
Time is money.
The Dillon will pay for itself.
Travelingchild
10-04-15, 09:01
http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp
Fill in the blanks see how long it would take to recoup..
I over estimated how much shooting I thought I did, most people do..
Once I got my presses I began shooting more,,You really don't save any money in the long run because you just shoot more..
Dillon 650 and A SquareDeal press...
In my opinion, it's not really worth it to reload 9mm in the current market unless you enjoy it and have the time, and shoot a ton.
223 is definitely worth it, since you can reload much more accurate ammunition for the same price as bulk brass like fed ae or wolf gold. And if you load 77 smk/nosler cc, you're looking at half the cost compared to black hills 77.
Your 9 is overpriced. Thats what I load 40 for. Once you factor in reloaded brass and such, you'll be around $7 per 50 rds for 9mm. Thats 140 for 1k, so your saving $80 per k. Also, the ammo is good quality. Also, I go slow and get 200 rds an hour.
Edit, mods. I think I hit report instead of reply. Sorry.
I've been reloading on a single stage for a while. I got setup and instructed by williejc. Great guy. He did an excellent job teaching me the basics.
I want to reload 300BLK and 9mm faster than I'm currently doing it. It takes me about an hour to load 50 rounds of either from start to finish on a single stage. And that's on a good day. I'm looking at moving up to a progressive, but I am having a hard time justifying the price.
A Dillon 550 for one caliber is about $560 when you get everything you need.
If I reload my own 9mm it comes to about $190/1000 if I buy in bulk. I can buy 1000 9mm rounds shipped for $220 currently.
300BLK and 5.56mm aren't much cheaper to reload than new ammo either. (Ozark has 20rds of 300BLK for $8.50 a box)
I really want a progressive and the ability to start cranking out ammo but when you sit down and think $560 for the press, plus additional caliber dies, plus ~$200 for primers and bullets... that would buy me a ton of ammo. It's a tough pill to swallow. I'd have to load like 15,000 rounds of ammo to pay for the press!
On the other hand, reloading is fun, I enjoy it, and I'm sure my enjoyment level would increase tremendously if it was easier and faster. But my bottom line goal is lowering my cost of ammo.
Thoughts?
Since you asked for thoughts and your bottom line is saving money.... I am in the same boat as you, except I do not currently reload for pistol/rifle. But was seriously considering a Dillon progressive setup for 9mm. I was not really sure what it would cost me to crank out 1000 rounds, but your current cost of 190/1000 9mm has pretty much convinced me to not do it. I have seen claims to be able to reload much cheaper, but it just doesn't work out for me base on the prices I am seeing for components, maybe I am missing something. You are currently saving $30 per 1000 rounds, that ratio stays the same even if you crank out 10,000 rounds.
I currently reload for shotgun and need to purchase more supplies. When I price out bought ammo vs reloads it is not worth time or money to reload, as a matter of fact if I catch a sale I can buy it cheaper, and that seems to be the case for all ammo. Also it is true that the more you reload the more you will shoot, so actual dollar cost saving may go to more fired rounds, not in your pocket, so if your doing it to save money, it aint happening, if your doing it to shoot more for the same, it may work out OK. When ammo prices rise, reloading components do so as well.
Reloading can be enjoyable, but so are my other hobbies, and the cost savings just don't seem to be there for me, and that sucks because I really want to be able to reload to save money and shoot more.
I am interested how this works out for you, and if you can get the cost per savings per 1000 lower than $30 let me know because I just may join you in investing in a progressive setup. Eventually you will pay for the re loader, but will the dollar savings be better spent elsewhere?
I have a progressive and still load my rifle calibers on the single stage. I just enjoy it more on the single and I get a better "feel" on everything. I've got a got system down that works for me. The case prep & charge weighing is all done electrically so that really eliminates a lot of the tediousness.
The progressive only gets used for my pistol calibers now.
Eurodriver
10-04-15, 10:40
Your 9 is overpriced. Thats what I load 40 for. Once you factor in reloaded brass and such, you'll be around $7 per 50 rds for 9mm. Thats 140 for 1k, so your saving $80 per k. Also, the ammo is good quality. Also, I go slow and get 200 rds an hour.
Edit, mods. I think I hit report instead of reply. Sorry.
Primers here are $5/100, $45/1000. Powder is $35/lb. Bullets are $0.12ea minimum (plus shipping if ordered online)
I know, because I've already loaded many rounds of 9mm. And I've shopped around online and in person. These aren't made up figures. It's not overpriced. It's just the price.
Eurodriver
10-04-15, 10:42
In my opinion, it's not really worth it to reload 9mm in the current market unless you enjoy it and have the time, and shoot a ton.
223 is definitely worth it, since you can reload much more accurate ammunition for the same price as bulk brass like fed ae or wolf gold. And if you load 77 smk/nosler cc, you're looking at half the cost compared to black hills 77.
I don't really need more accurate ammunition for 223. I'm just blasting at ranges <300 yards for 95% of my shooting with 11.5" SBRs. No precision needed.
I do see huge savings comes when I load my precision 308 (12/box vs 26 and more accurate) and 300BLK subs but I'm not looking for accuracy with any of these calibers. Just production volume and price savings. I think given those criteria 223 falls into your 9mm rule as well.
Primers here are $5/100, $45/1000. Powder is $35/lb. Bullets are $0.12ea minimum (plus shipping if ordered online)
I know, because I've already loaded many rounds of 9mm. And I've shopped around online and in person. These aren't made up figures. It's not overpriced. It's just the price.
Holy! Primers here are $29-32/k unless you can find some cheap imports, pistol powder hangs around $22/lb cheaper if you buy larger quantities, coated 147s are $80/k shipped, 125s are less, plated run just a little more. So $125/k of 9mm using a heavier charge or higher priced powder than I normally would.
I don't value my time much, but if I was paying what you are I probably wouldn't bother for bulk/plinking quality ammo, and if I'm not loading that I'd have no reason to upgrade to a progressive.
Prices and availability of reloading components vary greatly geographically. What makes sense to reload for one person isn't exactly applicable to the next.
If those prices are what Euro has, that's what he's got to work with and that's what should be considered for his thread.
Just food for thought.
I don't really need more accurate ammunition for 223. I'm just blasting at ranges <300 yards for 95% of my shooting with 11.5" SBRs. No precision needed.
I do see huge savings comes when I load my precision 308 (12/box vs 26 and more accurate) and 300BLK subs but I'm not looking for accuracy with any of these calibers. Just production volume and price savings. I think given those criteria 223 falls into your 9mm rule as well.
Wow, graft and sons has pistol primers 30 for 1k. Bullets are same, but I got 8lb powder got 17/lb. I think powder and primers are your killers. I'd look for cheaper, but probably wouldn't reload for what looks like your situation.
Primers here are $5/100, $45/1000. Powder is $35/lb. Bullets are $0.12ea minimum (plus shipping if ordered online)
I know, because I've already loaded many rounds of 9mm. And I've shopped around online and in person. These aren't made up figures. It's not overpriced. It's just the price.
I realize that's what you are paying but several of us are just saying you could do better. For $190/1000 I wouldn't reload 9 either.
However, BlueBullets are $750/10,000 delivered if you buy in quantity. Primers (in stock) from wideners are $300/10,000 delivered. No regional concerns there.
That's $105/1,000 plus powder. Even at your $35/lb (which is well over double what I get 8 lb kegs for locally) its ~ $120/1,000.
Whats your time worth it? That's for you to decide, of course. If you shoot 10k/yr at $120/1000 you "save" $1,000/yr vs $220/1000 of retail 9mm. Your press is paid for about 7 months into the first year.
Granted, this is buying 10k at a time but if your reloading you probably shoot enough to buy in bulk.
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Long term thinking is definitely the key to figuring out if it is or will be cost effective. It is always nice to have the best tools to perform your work in the most productive method possible and if that translates to a progressive press, well then, so be it. There is nothing wrong with using a single stage press either.
I assume you are using jacketed bullets for your 9mm loads. You can save a bit buy using a Lone Wolf barrel and switching to lead projectiles. I paid $99 for my barrel. I swap it between my G19's
I would consider a Lee Turret press. I switched from a Dillon Square deal a few years ago. I like the turret. The primer feed is simpler. I removed the auto index feature and rotate the turret by hand. Very nice, reliable set up. Slower than a progressive. Much faster that single stage
http://www.cabelas.com/product/lee-classic-turret-reloading-press/727910.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3DLEE%252BTURRET%26x%3D10%26y%3D6%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%252BProducts&Ntt=LEE+TURRET
Euro, even with hazmat and shipping charges, you'd be better off buying most of it online. A cheap 223 load like hornady 55 gr fmjbt over 24 gr h335 and a wolf primer costs about 20 cents, not counting the brass, and it's much more accurate than something like wolf gold. Just place a big enough order so you're not racking up lots of hazmat charges on the primers and powder.
I have a single stage lyman turret, and a dillon 650. I can't imagine doing thousands of rounds on the lyman. I suppose if you really, really enjoy reloading, it could be fun, but I'll stick to the progressive. :)
300BLK and 5.56mm aren't much cheaper to reload than new ammo either. (Ozark has 20rds of 300BLK for $8.50 a box)
I don't know a thing about 300 USELESS. But I can load .223/5.56 match quality ammo for 1/3 the price of buying comparable ammo. I put in some serious time on brass prep and priming, but load 500 rounds per hour on my 550b after that.
wilson1911
10-05-15, 00:13
Getting setup for a dillon is more than $560 when you factor all the accessories in.
I run a dillon 550 and this is what I have learned. I do not own a single stage.
It takes a minimum of 5 years of steady reloading to pay for a press. Much will depend on what caliber. 9mm and 45acp are some of the harder ones to recoup on. With rifle calibers, the savings adds up quicker. The exception being 5.56 mil ammo etc. I originally bought mine when I started shooting USPSA in FL.
Shooting lead is great and the cheapest of all for pistols. Buy bulk. My Wilson has over 7k of lead shot thru it, barrel looks new and is a tack driver still.
Picking up range brass saves you tons in the long run. Get a brass roller.
Once fired is great for starting your hoard of brass. Buy bulk.
In election years, guns get more expensive, shelves empty out on ammo, primers, and powders disappear for months at a time. This has no effect on me since I reload.
I buy primers and powder when I do not need it. If its on the shelf buy one.
When there is a gun or ammo run, go to the range with your brass roller and 1 box of ammo to shoot. Chat with people and maybe make a new friend. Nod your head and smile at the AR/pistol ninjas who know it all, remember we want their brass also, it shoots just as good as the guy you do like. Everyone wants to shoot a new gun they just bought during a panic.
I reload for 338LM and 6.5cm on mine also, but converted to a single stage. it's just as good with machined heads bolted on as a single stage is.
A stainless tumbler>vibratory media polisher/cleaner. It's expensive, but my brass comes out looking new, even if I let it sit outside for a year.
I have spent more money than anticipated, but my returns are greater then I thought possible.
eg. On hand I keep 25k large pistol primers and 30 lbs of bullseye/clays at all times. That's 50k of 45acp I can reload. I shoot the brass until it splits. Thats about 10 loadings. This is where reloading shines. Using the same brass multiple times. I have enough components to last for years for everything I shoot...well except the 338, it's like a hot chick with a fist full of credit cards when it comes to powder.
All I can say, is if you enjoy reloading it will pay off some day. Going to bolt guns has made me better in every way on reloading and I am still a novice at it. Do not be scared to load precision loads on a dillon, just know your press and what you need to accomplish it. Lead bullets is where its at on cost savings for pistol ammo. I enjoy sitting down for an hour an cranking out 350-400 rounds. I have about 3k worth of reloading equipment now, but its spread out over 8 years of buying. Without being able to reload for cost reduction, this would have been additional money spent. I now have a chargemaster, Giraud trimmer, and Tumbler for free. Did I actually save any money ??? Nope, but I have more stuff now than ever. Also, it has created a few good friendships as well. One room in the house is the reloading room only. If your going to reload any pistol at all, a dillon is the way to go. I do not worry about how many rounds I am going thru at the range, even with friends shooting it up also. I have nice guns and I like for others to enjoy them also.
Lots of good I info in your post but I'm not following the 5-year to pay a press off part.
He already has all the accessories so he will spend about $600, max for a 550. Even a new loader needing everything, ~$1,000 gets you a 550 ready to go.
The example above, loading 10K of 9mm a year, saves $1,000 the first year. His press is paid in ~ 7 months and a new shooter pays it off after that first year.
Getting setup for a dillon is more than $560 when you factor all the accessories in.
I run a dillon 550 and this is what I have learned. I do not own a single stage.
It takes a minimum of 5 years of steady reloading to pay for a press. Much will depend on what caliber. 9mm and 45acp are some of the harder ones to recoup on. With rifle calibers, the savings adds up quicker. The exception being 5.56 mil ammo etc. I originally bought mine when I started shooting USPSA in FL.
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Pistol is a lot cheaper than rifle. Faster too. I'm only in $700 iirc for my pistol 550. Reloader, die set, powder scale, calipers, tumbler.
I started reloading many years ago on a single stag press, and still use it for small batch reloads. But the Hornady LNL I picked up three or four years ago is much faster in making up rounds for any thing I have that I shoot often like 5.56 308 9mm and 45acp.
What I like best about reloading when ammo is out of stock, I can go out and reload any thing I want. Granted I have stocked up on bullets, primers and powder and currently have 5 years of supplies on hand. Being able to shoot when ammo is unavailable is really nice and having control over what I shoot is also nice.
wilson1911
10-05-15, 09:00
He did not say what he already had in the way of equipment. Most people who run a single do not have the larger capacity stuff. When you start with nothing, it does take about 1000-1200 to get started, pending on what you buy. I do find that most people use plated over lead which does increase cost over lead. I just remembered, doesn't Euro live in FL ? That means year around shooting instead of the usual 6-8 months.
But I will guarantee he will spend more than $560. The best choice when loading on a progressive is have 2 complete heads setup for rifle/pistol. So 2 toolheads, 2 powder measures, strong mount, roller handle, bins, bullet tray, primer tubes, and primer flip tray. Not taken into account is media separator, or vibratory cleaner and cost of media. Most guys have small ones for singles. You can go cheaper only using 1 head/powder measure etc. Running a head for pistol and one for rifle makes life much easier. Just change head and shell plate.
I just went to Dillons site and added it up, not including cleaning equip. $834 for everything I think most people use. The bottom line is 1) you can save money by reloading 2) his reload count will go up exponentially with a progressive. Reloading 50 at a time is far different than cranking out 800 rounds in a night. So just getting the bare essentials at first is a smart move. Anyone shooting high round counts should be on a progressive. You can always upgrade your press with the machined clamp on heads, micro meter, roller handle, baffle, etc at a later time. The bad part of reloading is you always end up buying more equipment, but its over a longer period.
Something else to consider is we will more than likely get another dem for pres. That means things are going to dry up again. Then you will be giggling when no one has ammo to shoot.
Euro, buy the Dillon And start cleaning all your brass up now or your going to run out in the middle of a session. Buy the press, extra primer tubes, and the Alum roller handle. The biggest question you need to ask yourself is "do I want to load 50 or 800 rounds in a night". It does not matter how much prep time is. You will make up your actual reload count in 1 night. After 2 weeks of getting acquainted with the press, your going to ask yourself how come you did not do this sooner. Watch your pennies and buy online in bulk for the best deals. I would start with pistol only.
Beside the basics (223, 308, 45 and 9) I load alot of oddball stuff like big bore rifle (375, 416 and 458), large bore pistol (44, 45 LC, 454, 475 and 500) along with the classics like 22 hornet, 32-20, 45-70. Buying the odd ball stuff over the counter is were a morority of the savings are, granted, i might only shoot 40 rds of 458 Lott a year but I shot 500 rds of 32-20 this spring and the last box I saw of that was buck+ a round. Right now with the price of 9mm I'd be stacking it deep but I generally only shoot about 1-2k per year of it, 45 acp still really hasn't come down and the cost of Pb is going up to the point I've considered casting for 9, 357, 10 and 45.
I picked up my Dillon in 86. The only thing I would consider a step up would be a 650 for the option of a case feeder but would still hand prime my rifle brass. Buy now and cry once for the next 30-50 years. You need to start looking ahead and plan your component purchases 1 year out or keep a 1-2 yr stash on hand of powder, primers and projos so when the idiots starts flapping their gums about gun control ect, you can shoot through the static and not hope and pray where your next case or box of ammo is going to come from.
Eurodriver
10-06-15, 09:12
He did not say what he already had in the way of equipment. Most people who run a single do not have the larger capacity stuff. When you start with nothing, it does take about 1000-1200 to get started, pending on what you buy. I do find that most people use plated over lead which does increase cost over lead. I just remembered, doesn't Euro live in FL ? That means year around shooting instead of the usual 6-8 months.
But I will guarantee he will spend more than $560. The best choice when loading on a progressive is have 2 complete heads setup for rifle/pistol. So 2 toolheads, 2 powder measures, strong mount, roller handle, bins, bullet tray, primer tubes, and primer flip tray. Not taken into account is media separator, or vibratory cleaner and cost of media. Most guys have small ones for singles. You can go cheaper only using 1 head/powder measure etc. Running a head for pistol and one for rifle makes life much easier. Just change head and shell plate.
I just went to Dillons site and added it up, not including cleaning equip. $834 for everything I think most people use. The bottom line is 1) you can save money by reloading 2) his reload count will go up exponentially with a progressive. Reloading 50 at a time is far different than cranking out 800 rounds in a night. So just getting the bare essentials at first is a smart move. Anyone shooting high round counts should be on a progressive. You can always upgrade your press with the machined clamp on heads, micro meter, roller handle, baffle, etc at a later time. The bad part of reloading is you always end up buying more equipment, but its over a longer period.
Something else to consider is we will more than likely get another dem for pres. That means things are going to dry up again. Then you will be giggling when no one has ammo to shoot.
Euro, buy the Dillon And start cleaning all your brass up now or your going to run out in the middle of a session. Buy the press, extra primer tubes, and the Alum roller handle. The biggest question you need to ask yourself is "do I want to load 50 or 800 rounds in a night". It does not matter how much prep time is. You will make up your actual reload count in 1 night. After 2 weeks of getting acquainted with the press, your going to ask yourself how come you did not do this sooner. Watch your pennies and buy online in bulk for the best deals. I would start with pistol only.
I appreciate your input, but I bought all of my equipment in advance knowing I'd eventually get a dillon. All I need is the $560 set to reload 9mm.
Still, the cost of the press isn't entirely the point of this thread. I'd buy the $560 press in a heartbeat if it meant I could load 9mm for less than $7/box. You guys are right about thinking really long term (30-50 years). I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the Dillon and load 223 for now. After reading Slippers' post I think I can make that work for less than the 300/1000 223 runs now. I'll load 300BLK on it too, but I only have about 400 pieces of brass for that but that's only one afternoon of work on a Dillon. I'll save some money and eventually buy the 10k components of 9mm and see significant savings. Maybe sell some to my buddies who think reloading is for old retired guys when ammo gets too pricey.
Eurodriver
10-09-15, 20:05
I enjoy the single stage, but damn I am dead tired.
I loaded 200 147gr 9mm loads and 100 300BLK Subsonic today. I started at 3pm. I am just finishing (8pm) Dinner and breaks were in there though...as was test firing. The sad thing? The 300BLK and 9mm rounds were already resized and had the necks expanded. All I had to do was prime, powder, seat, and crimp the bullet. It took five...hours...
I might be biting the bullet.
Sidenote: My local reloading store lowered primers to $3.60/100. With tax its about $3.85. It helps...
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/DSC01661_zpskm8pkukw.jpg
http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w521/6234987u02/IMG_3633_zpsazdetqwv.jpg
I might have missed it but how are you weighing your charges? Getting an auto charge really speeds up things & is way less tedious.
Oof, that's a long time for 200 rounds. There are people much faster than me, but I prepped 600 .223 cases on Wednesday in about an hour (decap, size, trim via rt1200). Wet tumbled them for 2 hours, then laid them out to dry overnight.
Swapped out the toolhead on my 650 the next morning, then loaded 350 rounds in an hour (neck expander, prime, powder, bullet seat, very slight crimp). Then went to the range.
If I had the automatic case feeder, it would speed things up considerably. I waste so much time dropping brass into the feed tube. Otherwise it's great, and I love that all my prep is done on one toolhead, loading on another. The only thing I do manually is swage, but that's not very often.
Eurodriver
10-10-15, 05:03
I might have missed it but how are you weighing your charges? Getting an auto charge really speeds up things & is way less tedious.
Rcbs powder measure
I think you are ready for a Dillon. Do you have bench space for a progressive?
Reloading on a single stage press is enjoyable for me and I stuck with it for 20 years, but shooting pistols and ARs my reloading load went from 10 to 20 hi power rifle rounds to 150 to 250 rounds. And I still use my single stage but the LNL gets the lion share of use.
Mikill Drengr
10-11-15, 09:22
Components have gone up so much I don't think its currently worth it for me to load 9mm and 223 ammo. My free time is better spent doing other things I enjoy far more than loading ammo.
You might not feel that it's cost effective to load 9mm or .223 right now but remember that commercial ammo is at its lowest price in quite a few years. With the current political situation, six months or a year from now that might not be the case and I'll still be loading them for 0.12/round and 0.22/round like I am now.
richiecotite
10-18-15, 17:06
Upgrading to a Dillon won't cost that much; I just got my 550b in 2 days ago. I upgraded from a lee turret. I'm using the lee dies I already had, the scale that came with the Lee, the calipers I already had. Total cost was $455 from Brian enos, and in a couple of hours I was setup and loading 9mm.
If cost was a factor, I don't think the Lee turret can be beat for its price and simplicity. The Dillon is something that will (probably) last as long as you.
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richiecotite
10-18-15, 17:14
Also, there's no reason to pay those type of prices when you can order everything online. The hazmat fee sucks, but compared to the prices your paying 4K primers or 5 lbs of powder would have you breaking even or costing a bit less than local prices.
If you haven't already, make e switch from plated/jacketed bullets to coated lead. 115 gr plinkers cost about 74 shipped per thousand. Hell, wideners just had 2k 124 gr jacketed bullets for $140 shipped. Decent prices to be had online, assuming you buy in any sort of bulk.
I reload 9mm because I remember not having any during the drought and not being able to find any. Got to the point where I decided to trade my 9mm guns for 45 because I could still find 45acp in stores and online. Once that ran dry I decided it was time to pull the press out from the closet that I never setup because I "didn't have time". I found the time to get it setup, found powder and primers on a local board, and bullets through a group buy and haven't looked back since.
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