View Full Version : input for 308 ar
Hi all, I'm looking to get a new ar10 and am contemplating the following options:
1) ruger sr 762
2) the new DD 308
3) LMT MWS (attractive due to the ability to buy a separate barrel caliber)
My plan for the gun is range shooting and the ability to hog/deer hunt. My range tops out at 200yds but I'd like to be able to have a gun that I could hit steel plates with at 500yds. I am not looking for a benchrest gun to just punch paper. I am familiar with the 308/7.62 cartridge as already have a ptr91 that I like but am looking for something that ideally is a little lighter, easier to mount optics, have the bolt hold open with empty mag/doesn't destroy brass so i can reload etc. In all likelihood I will not run the gun suppressed. I already have a 2.5-10x optic I'm planning to mount. So here are the attributes I'd like:
Accuracy - hunting accurate with the ability to hits plates at 500 yds when I get the chance to go to other shooting ranges, </= to 2 moa
Lightweight
reliable
easy to procure magazines
cost at this point is somewhat moot given that the 308 platform isn't cheap to begin with
I have considered a build but i'm hesitant as I'm not that familiar with the 308 ar platforms compared to 556.
Thanks
Not sure I'd go piston for the best inherent accuracy. Those are some top-line choices you're considering.
FWIW, it's not the Gen2, but the previous bigger/heavier model, but my 2 best friends have DPMS 308s. One is 18" w/ Miculek brake and other a 20" w/ plain end barrel and both shoot MOA or better ... and were bargains for what they had paid. My buddy hunts w/ the 18" (Oracle?) model and using 150-grn Power-Shok softpoints by Federal and he printed a 10-shot group of 1-1/8" ... and he's no target shooter ... and he asked me if that was 'any good'? I tried some Fed gold medal 168s on bench setup and printed 3/4" groups repeatedly.
That's all the 308 experience I can share. Good luck!
I own the LMT MWS - don't believe it meets your lightweight criteria. However, it is an exceptional rifle.
cost at this point is somewhat moot given that the 308 platform isn't cheap to begin with
Thanks
That makes it easy. KAC APC/ACC. Prefer my APC over my MWS hands down.
My DPMS G2 Recon shoots sub MOA 5shots groups consistently. It's a darn nice 308 AR. The only thing you have to do to it is put an adjustable gas block on it as it comes over gassed.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/05/8c4bafe4c060119c567b3f09932324e7.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/05/23c0b4eaacbb695451730f5dfc0bad3a.jpg
Brassnbullets
10-05-15, 19:45
+1 lmt mws
Of the three listed, LMT for sure.
Not a fan of the Ruger, and between the DD and the Lewis, LMT has a track record. That said, history would have me assume the DD will be a good rifle.
Sent from my iPhone
As an AR308 guy from way back and having owned LMT, LaRue, KAC, DPMS, and Armalite rifles... I vote for the Armalite DEF 10: http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/armalite/aldef10-defender-ar-10-rifle-308-win-16in-20rd-black/
$903.64... That's pretty compelling.
I've had mine for a while and really like it. I added Armalite's 15" freefloat KeyMod rail and a low-pro gas block along with the UBR and Slash's heavy buffer. It has been 100% reliable with all ammo I've tried (147gr Hirtenberger, 144gr FN, 147gr PMC, 168gr Amax) EXCEPT for the German bi-metal DAG, which will not cycle the action. In this regard, it is less ammo-sensitive than the KAC EMC I had.
I've used Magpul LR20 and LR25s and the IMI 20rd mags with no problems.
The Leupold VX-R 2-7x Ballistic Firedot is a nice matchup to the rifle and is suitable for hunting.
http://personal.visualitymedia.com/personal/ar308/ar10_2-7x_1200px.jpg
Nice looking setup - with those mods, how much extra $ did that run you (minus the optic/mags).
As an AR308 guy from way back and having owned LMT, LaRue, KAC, DPMS, and Armalite rifles... I vote for the Armalite DEF 10: http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/armalite/aldef10-defender-ar-10-rifle-308-win-16in-20rd-black/
$903.64... That's pretty compelling.
I've had mine for a while and really like it. I added Armalite's 15" freefloat KeyMod rail and a low-pro gas block along with the UBR and Slash's heavy buffer. It has been 100% reliable with all ammo I've tried (147gr Hirtenberger, 144gr FN, 147gr PMC, 168gr Amax) EXCEPT for the German bi-metal DAG, which will not cycle the action. In this regard, it is less ammo-sensitive than the KAC EMC I had.
I've used Magpul LR20 and LR25s and the IMI 20rd mags with no problems.
The Leupold VX-R 2-7x Ballistic Firedot is a nice matchup to the rifle and is suitable for hunting.
http://personal.visualitymedia.com/personal/ar308/ar10_2-7x_1200px.jpg
Nice looking setup - with those mods, how much extra $ did that run you (minus the optic/mags).
I'd say somewhere around $600, which includes:
- Armalite KeyMod 15" handguard (really nice, light unit)
- Magpul UBR
- Slash heavy buffer
- Magpul MIAD (they make a specific one for AR308s)
- Sadlak steel low-pro gas block
I dimpled the barrel for the gas block using a Rainier Arms dimpling jig, everything else was just a parts swap. I had the Vltor flash hider sitting around, but if you want that as well I think they're around $60. The extended A2 FH that ships with the rifle is just fine, of course.
Of the three listed, LMT for sure.
Not a fan of the Ruger, and between the DD and the Lewis, LMT has a track record. That said, history would have me assume the DD will be a good rifle.
Sent from my iPhone
The Daniel Defense DD5V1 looks very good!:cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm11OTe1L5s
Nice looking setup - with those mods, how much extra $ did that run you (minus the optic/mags).
I'll vouch for ArmaLite if you're adding it to the list. Overall, mine has been good as well. The only issue is the FCG pins like to walk, which is fairly easy to address.
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The Daniel Defense DD5V1 looks very good!:cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm11OTe1L5s
I have no doubt it will be. I have their Lite Rail on my Armalite. It is good stuff.
Sent from my iPhone
I've shot the LMT, Ruger, my old DPMS, as well as my current own Armalite.
My impressions:
LMT - heavy, but probably the best of the bunch. Accurate.
Ruger - heavy. Very gassy. I was choking and tearing up after 2 or 3 shots. Wasn't able to evaluate accuracy.
DPMS - surprisingly, not bad for a range gun. The new G2 models seem to be even lighter and made from better materials.
Armalite - I like it, but I'm not under any illusions that it's a better gun than the LMT.
You really can't go wrong with the MWS. If you can swing the cash for a KAC, even better.
The DD 308 is kind of an unknown. DD makes quality guns. However, it is a first gen release, so who knows. At least the LMT and KAC have gone through several/multiple iterations, generations, revisions, etc.
I've shot the LMT, Ruger, my old DPMS, as well as my current own Armalite.
My impressions:
LMT - heavy, but probably the best of the bunch. Accurate.
Ruger - heavy. Very gassy. I was choking and tearing up after 2 or 3 shots. Wasn't able to evaluate accuracy.
DPMS - surprisingly, not bad for a range gun. The new G2 models seem to be even lighter and made from better materials.
Armalite - I like it, but I'm not under any illusions that it's a better gun than the LMT.
You really can't go wrong with the MWS. If you can swing the cash for a KAC, even better.
The DD 308 is kind of an unknown. DD makes quality guns. However, it is a first gen release, so who knows. At least the LMT and KAC have gone through several/multiple iterations, generations, revisions, etc.
What he said...all of it.
Sent from my iPhone
spoke to a local dealer and he quoted $2700 out the door for the DD, i expected street price to fall around $2300. Leaning more towards the LMT with the slick rail if the price between the two is the same
ad_infinitum
10-11-15, 11:54
My DPMS G2 Recon shoots sub MOA 5shots groups consistently. It's a darn nice 308 AR. The only thing you have to do to it is put an adjustable gas block on it as it comes over gassed.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/05/8c4bafe4c060119c567b3f09932324e7.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/05/23c0b4eaacbb695451730f5dfc0bad3a.jpg
Nice!
Sexual_Meatball
10-14-15, 03:32
if i had the coin to buy between the 3 id choose LMT or even a SCAR17. DD308 has yet to be released and truly reviewed even tho i dont doubt DD's quality as we all know how well the ar15's are.
For What It Is Worth - I owned a Ruger 7.62 and over 750 rounds or so, never had a single malfunction. It is OK on weight (if it isn't, do more PT). It was plenty accurate enough for "social" or hunting work.
I got rid of it after Ruger refused to stock spare/replacement parts at vendors, and when I contacted them, this is what I got:
- We will not sell you parts
- We will sell you a bolt complete and a buffer spring for $300
I built a PSA "AR-10" for $800. It does quite well (in spite of being a gas gun). Since I do not anticipate having a Wanat style target rich environment, then it should fully satisfy my needs.
The SR7.62 went in trade for a 18" M1A Scout with a Vortex 1X Spitfire. : )
YMMV
USMA84DAB
Just came across this online as well:https://armalite.com/shop/ar-10-tactical-16/
armalite ar10 16" tactical rifle - didn't see the details listed on if the barrel is free floating or not. any thoughts??
Just came across this online as well:https://armalite.com/shop/ar-10-tactical-16/
armalite ar10 16" tactical rifle - didn't see the details listed on if the barrel is free floating or not. any thoughts??
If you can swing it, even reluctantly or under protest, you should take the leap for an LMT. I've handled most of the rifles mentioned in this thread during some heavy carbine classes and the only conclusion is that you won't find a better operating 308 than the LMT (or KAC), nor a rifle better capable of a high number of rounds on average before you encounter a stoppage.
My go to precision semi auto was an MWS for years... I bought it a few months after they were first available and since put between 20 and 25k rounds down range in both carbine and long range roles, using a variety of barrels. Incredibly precise semi auto.
If you're not set on an AR, consider a SCAR.
To add, I do very well understand a tight budget. When I bought my MWS, I was at a point where I had nothing, and was too busy taking care of aging parents to take on more work for the cash. I saved for the MWS about 150 bucks at a time, every two weeks when I was paid. I got a small tax return and it was go time, and I've never regretted it.
the price difference is significant (armalite vs the dd/lmt) but I have been saving for a while now and have finished residency. I would rather "buy once, cry once" with this platform. I initially got my ptr91 to get into the 308 game on a budget and it has accomplished what i wanted but now looking to get something better.
the price difference is significant (armalite vs the dd/lmt) but I have been saving for a while now and have finished residency. I would rather "buy once, cry once" with this platform. I initially got my ptr91 to get into the 308 game on a budget and it has accomplished what i wanted but now looking to get something better.
Then a KAC APC/ACC is for you. When my wife finished Residency, I bought myself a present. You are finished so buy a KAC. You want to buy once, cry once, then get the KAC. It's not like you can't budget and get one. Either $h-t or get off the pot. Why is this even a discussion? No one that can afford a KAC is going to buy something else based on the merits of that particular rifle exceeding the KAC.
Then a KAC APC/ACC is for you. When my wife finished Residency, I bought myself a present. You are finished so buy a KAC. You want to buy once, cry once, then get the KAC. It's not like you can't budget and get one. Either $h-t or get off the pot. Why is this even a discussion? No one that can afford a KAC is going to buy something else based on the merits of that particular rifle exceeding the KAC.
Not everyone needs what the KAC rifles bring to the table. The KAC rifles are also not FALs or HK91s that are designed to shoot 7.62NATO surplus ammo. The APC/ACC are designed around a milspec round like the M80 and therefore require current-manufacture milspec-type ammo to function reliably over time. The KACs are not "eat anything and beg for more" rifles, if that is part of your rifle reliability calculation.
I've owned multiple KAC .308 gas guns, and I don't believe that a $4500 rifle is the only answer to the AR308 question.
I love my LMT MWS, for a bench gun. Im guessing mine weighs ~15lbs+ loaded(Magpul PRS stock, Vortex Viper PST 4-16 in Badger rings, Harris bi-pod).
The KAC's I have handled have been lighter, although they werent setup the same to be fair. Standard stock(sopmod I think?), USO 1-8 in Bobro mount, no bi-pod. I think that gun was ~11lbs all up. You wouldnt think 3-4lbs would make a difference, its huge.
If I was buying an LMT MWS today it would be the LM8 version as I have no real use for all the rail space on mine and the lighter weight of the LM8 I believe is all in the receiver difference as I believe they use the same barrels.
I dont think you can go wrong with either. I think the KAC would hold better resale value vs. the LMT, although I think I could still get out of mine what I paid for it.
domestique
10-14-15, 17:11
Not everyone needs what the KAC rifles bring to the table. The KAC rifles are also not FALs or HK91s that are designed to shoot 7.62NATO surplus ammo. The APC/ACC are designed around a milspec round like the M80 and therefore require current-manufacture milspec-type ammo to function reliably over time. The KACs are not "eat anything and beg for more" rifles, if that is part of your rifle reliability calculation.
I've owned multiple KAC .308 gas guns, and I don't believe that a $4500 rifle is the only answer to the AR308 question.
This. I owned an ECC.... sold it for 2 LMT LM8MWS rifles. The KAC wasn't as accurate as I hoped. With the LMT I can put a 14.5" pinned 7.62 barrel on for CQB, 18" match 7.62 for medium range, and finally a 20" 6.5CM match barrel for hitting steel past 1,000 yards.
The KAC was softer shooting, and would love to own another...... but it just wasn't worth it for ME. The downside to LMT rifles.... heavy! The barrel extension is very heavy duty. They now make an aluminum version which cuts some weight.
If you don't want/need a quick change barrel, I would definitely check out the new DD offerings.
Boba Fett v2
10-14-15, 18:32
This. I owned an ECC.... sold it for 2 LMT LM8MWS rifles. The KAC wasn't as accurate as I hoped. With the LMT I can put a 14.5" pinned 7.62 barrel on for CQB, 18" match 7.62 for medium range, and finally a 20" 6.5CM match barrel for hitting steel past 1,000 yards.
The KAC was softer shooting, and would love to own another...... but it just wasn't worth it for ME. The downside to LMT rifles.... heavy! The barrel extension is very heavy duty. They now make an aluminum version which cuts some weight.
If you don't want/need a quick change barrel, I would definitely check out the new DD offerings.
I'm right there with you, brother. Love my MWS and it's never going to get sold. But I agree in that it is one heavy son-of-a-bitch. Would love to see compatible lightweight uppers by competing manufactures become available.
RetroRevolver77
10-19-15, 00:47
I joined this forum to research .308 AR type rifles to possibly replace my HK91's. I have other AR's but I want something that is lighter than a G3, as reliable, with perhaps a little more accuracy. On the fence between AR10 types and the SCAR. I've looked at the Knight's ECC and the LMT but both are somewhat heavy. I owned LMT AR's in the past and they were good rifles. Anyway, thanks 7n6.
I think i am now down to the LMT LM8 or a rainier arms ra308. both about the same price but the rainier is lighter by quite a bit but there is little i have found in the way of reviews and its track record.
Besides building one, I did some serious looking at the PWS MK216 and loved it. If I didn't build mine I would have grabbed that one up.
For a gun that's going to be used primarily for hunting, anything other than the GII is going to need to be put on a diet, starting with the barrel.
Biggest problems that I'm seeing is that DPMS production is doing what it has typically done, but the design is great.
I just spent 5 days not too long ago beating earth up in the mountains on an elk hunt, and have spent a good portion of my life busting brush and humping terrain all over the world with a weapon in my hand, so it comes naturally to me.
Something that handles like an M4 with maybe a little more barrel length is great for hunting. I personally use the AR15 chambered in a different caliber that has 80% of the .308's energy at the muzzle, and gains on most .308 loads from thereon out, with half the recoil, all in a 7lb 12oz package with 2.5-10x32 scope. If I was dead set on a .308 for some reason, I would lean to the GII and hope it doesn't have problems.
I've been wanting to build off of one for a while in a different caliber, maybe 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor, but I'm still watching all the customer beat testing work itself out. I only really want the receivers, BCG, ejection port cover assembly, charge handle, and barrel extension. I'll take care of the rest.
These things feel like an AR15 in your hands:
http://dpms-gii.com/assets/img/content/configurations-hunter@2x.png
Boba Fett v2
10-23-15, 16:15
I love my LMT MWS, for a bench gun. Im guessing mine weighs ~15lbs+ loaded(Magpul PRS stock, Vortex Viper PST 4-16 in Badger rings, Harris bi-pod).
The KAC's I have handled have been lighter, although they werent setup the same to be fair. Standard stock(sopmod I think?), USO 1-8 in Bobro mount, no bi-pod. I think that gun was ~11lbs all up. You wouldnt think 3-4lbs would make a difference, its huge.
If I was buying an LMT MWS today it would be the LM8 version as I have no real use for all the rail space on mine and the lighter weight of the LM8 I believe is all in the receiver difference as I believe they use the same barrels.
I dont think you can go wrong with either. I think the KAC would hold better resale value vs. the LMT, although I think I could still get out of mine what I paid for it.
I'm with Team LMT in this case. Don't get me wrong. I'm a big KAC fan myself, owning many of their products, but the KAC doesn't offer $2K of improvement over the LMT. I would also argue that the LMT monolithic upper is superior to KAC's traditional rail/receiver set-up.
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Pulled the trigger today and decided on the LMT LM8, found one new for $2500. Should ship later this week. The RA308 is attractive but I couldn't justify paying the same to save a little weight on a somewhat unproven platform compared to LMT. For me I also couldn't justify the added cost of a KAC
domestique
10-27-15, 14:20
I'm with Team LMT in this case. Don't get me wrong. I'm a big KAC fan myself, owning many of their products, but the KAC doesn't offer $2K of improvement over the LMT. I would also argue that the LMT monolithic upper is superior to KAC's traditional rail/receiver set-up.
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All the reasons why I sold my ECC.
Pulled the trigger today and decided on the LMT LM8, found one new for $2500. Should ship later this week. The RA308 is attractive but I couldn't justify paying the same to save a little weight on a somewhat unproven platform compared to LMT. For me I also couldn't justify the added cost of a KAC
Good choice. I would recommend selling the SOPMOD stock (125.00), the LMT Trigger (120.00) and instead buying a Geissele Trigger and magpul ACS stock. However, the LMT trigger group is no slouch in its own right..... but the SOPMOD stock is awful for prone shooting, and needs to go.
You should be able to make money off of the stock to help offset some of the extra trigger cost. I'm personally partial to the SD-E trigger for precision rifle builds, and the SD-C for all around battle rifle use.
cougar_guy04
10-27-15, 15:04
My DPMS G2 Recon shoots sub MOA 5shots groups consistently. It's a darn nice 308 AR. The only thing you have to do to it is put an adjustable gas block on it as it comes over gassed.
This would be my thought. I've been eyeballing the G2 hard and like what I see. The only things that I'd want to do are (1) adjustable gas block, (2) replace the Blackout with a brake, (3) something more akin to a URX 3.1 or Centurion C4 handguard, (4) Gunfighter-type charging handle, and (5) profile the barrel a bit, as it's on the chunky side for what I'd do. And I'd be perfectly content with just 1, 2 and 5.
Pulled the trigger today and decided on the LMT LM8, found one new for $2500. Should ship later this week. The RA308 is attractive but I couldn't justify paying the same to save a little weight on a somewhat unproven platform compared to LMT. For me I also couldn't justify the added cost of a KAC
Great choice. I've had an LMT MWS for a couple of years. Picked up and 18" SS barrel and had some issues - still not sure whether it was the ammo or the barrel; however, both Hornady and LMT were super to work with and problem resolved. Unlike others, I tried a different stock (LMT DMR 308) and found that the SOPMOD stock is better for my needs, whether prone, bench or standing. Enjoy the rifle.
Boba Fett v2
10-27-15, 15:58
I prefer the ACS stock over the SOPMOD as well. However, I'm currently exploring another option that is both optimal for prone and bench shooting as well as a decent run-and-gun type shoulder-fire capability as well. We'll see how it works out.
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This would be my thought. I've been eyeballing the G2 hard and like what I see. The only things that I'd want to do are (1) adjustable gas block, (2) replace the Blackout with a brake, (3) something more akin to a URX 3.1 or Centurion C4 handguard, (4) Gunfighter-type charging handle, and (5) profile the barrel a bit, as it's on the chunky side for what I'd do. And I'd be perfectly content with just 1, 2 and 5.
I was tempted very hard by the DPMS G2 last year when deciding on what .308 AR to get.
KAC and the LMT were the ideal choices, but a bit outside my budget range.
Armalite AR-10A's were on sale for $500 less than the DPMS G2.
The AR-10A already came with a light barrel, and is compatible with the Rainier Raptor and BCM Gunfighter charging handles. It made my choice easy.
I might eventually get a DPMS G2. I'd love to see a Gunfighter/Raptor charging handle to fit it.
Jeepman1320
10-27-15, 17:39
I bought a DPMS GII Recon a few months ago and still put it on a diet. Midwest Industries Keymod Rail, SLR adjustable gas block, Battlelink Minimalist stock, changed the AAC flash hider to a SJC Titan brake (minimizes recoil on the lightweight rifle), with a TRS-25, BUIS, and Vickers Sling it comes out to right around 8lbs and 6oz. After getting the gas block adjusted I have put right at about 1k rounds of south african junk ammo through it was no issues. Only thing I do not like is it will not reliably run Pmags (get bolt over malfunctions), but it runs every other mag flawlessly. With a full 20rd Lancer mag it is just over 10lbs... Debating if I should send the barrel out for a re-profile and dimples to shave some more off. I emailed Raptor about a charging handle and they said they have no plans to produce them, but there are PRI gasbuster charging handles available.
domestique
10-27-15, 19:02
I prefer the ACS stock over the SOPMOD as well. However, I'm currently exploring another option that is both optimal for prone and bench shooting as well as a decent run-and-gun type shoulder-fire capability as well. We'll see how it works out.
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LMT's precision rifle stock doesn't require a rifle length buffer tube unlike Magpul's PRS, or Luth's precision stock. You could run that stock for prone/bench, and then put on a normal carbine stock (CTR, ACS, SOPMOD etc.) for shoulder fire/battle rifle stuff.
I run an ACS with a SAPR attachment for precision shooting, and a regular ACS for a battle rifle setup.
Boba Fett v2
10-27-15, 20:17
LMT's precision rifle stock doesn't require a rifle length buffer tube unlike Magpul's PRS, or Luth's precision stock. You could run that stock for prone/bench, and then put on a normal carbine stock (CTR, ACS, SOPMOD etc.) for shoulder fire/battle rifle stuff.
I run an ACS with a SAPR attachment for precision shooting, and a regular ACS for a battle rifle setup.
PM sent. Looked at the LMT and SAPR options, but I have something else in mind.
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In 308 I think the AR-10 based guns are the way to go. Now if you perfer something a little more jazzy than Armalite then you can get from one of the boutique manufactures like Noveseke or such.
Boba Fett v2
10-30-15, 01:11
LMT's precision rifle stock doesn't require a rifle length buffer tube unlike Magpul's PRS, or Luth's precision stock. You could run that stock for prone/bench, and then put on a normal carbine stock (CTR, ACS, SOPMOD etc.) for shoulder fire/battle rifle stuff.
I run an ACS with a SAPR attachment for precision shooting, and a regular ACS for a battle rifle setup.
Yeah, on second thought I think I'm just going to stick with the ACS stock. I might reconsider the SAPR extension, but to be honest I'm doing fine without it.
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