View Full Version : SHTF ACOG vs. Aimpoint dilemma, what's your take?
Doc Safari
10-08-15, 14:41
This is not just another ACOG vs. Aimpoint thread. I consider them both good-to-go; it's just a matter of preference.
*Both are built to withstand abuse
*Both have long element life/battery life
*Both have advantages and disadvantages as far as reticle pattern, eye relief, optical clarity, etc.
I have narrowed it down to a question of illumination serviceability, especially in a SHTF situation.
The premise is that for whatever reason, there has been some sort of catastrophe. You have an ACOG that's fairly new, but you don't know how new, and you can't send it off to have the element replaced, EVER, because of the SHTF situation. You also have an Aimpoint Comp M4s. For the Aimpoint, you purchased plenty of Energizer L91BP-8 Ultimate Lithium AA Batteries with a 20-year shelf life, but you're not sure if you would ever be able to resupply, again because of the SHTF situation.
So, it comes down to this:
Which do you prefer in a SHTF situation?
Please give some good reasons why you would pick one over the other. There are no right answers, just food for thought.
Acog with iron sites on top might take care of your concerns?
If illumination fails you have etched reticle for distance and irons for closer.
sevenhelmet
10-08-15, 14:57
ACOG. It is supposed to take 12 years for the tritium illumination to decrease by half and another 12 for it to decrease to 25% of when new. Even then the sight still works in most conditions with the fiber optic to gather light, and even when it doesn't, the etched reticle is still visible with any ambient light. By that point, the AIMPOINT batteries may or may not work. If they don't, there is no etched reticle to back up operation of the RDS. Finally, if the ACOG is just not usable in desired conditions, I have BUIS.
Odds are, in 12 years of SHTF, I've probably broken my ACOG and found a different solution anyway.
I have gone with an ACOG that has the cross reticle, so when the tritium dies or the reticle washes out I can still use it like any other scope.
I've thought about this as well. My thinking leads me to believe that the ACOG would be the better optic for this circumstance for the following reasons:
1. If the tritium/fiber optic goes out at some point in time, you'll always have a very useful reticle at your disposal. If the Aimpoint dies, as in inoperable even with batteries, you'll have nothing more than a ghost ring sight.
2. Target identification with the ACOG is superior, no need for explanation.
3. Hypothetically speaking, if this catastrophe was an EMP, I'd still take my chances with the ACOG due to no electronics. This is all speculation at the moment. I wonder what Aimpoint has to say about the newer models being hardened against EMP.
This is just my opinion, I'd like to hear others opinion on this as well.
ACOG. It'll still be usable in daylight when the tritium runs out, provides 4x magnification for more utility, and is at least usable in close quarters. When all the batteries are drained in 10 years, fiber optic sights will still work in the day time.
However I may be biased- I'm a big advocate of magnification whenever possible, be it a 1-4x, 1-6x, 2.5-10x, fixed 4x, or red dot + magnifier.
IMO, in a long term schumer event, the less you are dependent on technology the better off you are going to be, less to fail... Having owned two ACOGs and a NF NXS 1-4, I lean towards the NF. Have found it easier to utilize close in although I know a guy can train past the 4X challenge when shooting close distances. Both offer clean glass, with the ACOG weighing less, but the NF having better eye relief... In short, a high quality variable would get my first vote, the ACOG second. I have two Aimpoints and love them, but hate thought of having to power them...
ColtSeavers
10-08-15, 19:21
Voted other.
Something with an etched reticle. Be it a fixed power prismatic or variable is up to you, but there is absolutely zero worry about batteries or element lifespan to worry about to begin with.
sidewaysil80
10-08-15, 19:26
ACOG, for the simple reason that its still useable/handy without its illumination. With that being said, the Aimpoint is all but worthless if it runs out of batteries. Now in full disclosure my go rifle to wears a Comp M2. I do keep a large supply of batteries on hand and it also wears BUIS.
Another vote for a variable optic with an etched reticle. Go one step farther and get an illuminated reticle to get the best of both worlds.
Acog, but, I would choose the TA33 over the TA31. Bigger eyebox and its easier to use at close distances.
sevenhelmet
10-08-15, 20:39
The ACOG reticle is etched. You can still see it, even when the illumination is washed out by conditions, such as shooting from a covered bench into full sun.
Anyone ever used an ACOG without the tritium lamp? I'm curious whether the reticle would show up black or not (obviously the light pipe would have to be covered as well).
In shtf, you're going to want was much stand off distance as possible.
Something tough, that works without batteries. Unless you're planning night assaults.
Pray that it never gets that bad. The fudds will have the advantage. Lol...They'll have perimeters from hell with a 375 h&h fagnum magnun.
I'll go with the ACOG as well. Standoff and the ability to discriminate what I am looking at. I have both too, the TA31 and a comp M2. Both are getting around the 10year mark each. The ACOG is dimming a bit, but in sunlight the fiber tube glows quite well, otherwise its a black reticle just like my variable powered Leupolds. I keep a supply of those quirky batteries for the M2 on hand. With my astigmatism the ACOG looks cleaner than the red dot, but I still have no issues with the RDS as I know where the dot is and the rest of the bloom is just a nuisance. All the long guns have buis.
In a SHTF scenario, its really gonna depend which rifle I grab first.
I have a lot of rounds downrange with ACOGS and Aimpoints. I went to a Nightforce 1-4 and there is nothing I miss about an ACOG and will never go back.
If you're serious about SHTF and being prepared with the best you can get, forget the ACOG. It's a fixed 4X that suffers up close and the eye relief is PITA to live with.
Even after SHTF, you won't be able to see in the dark so you're going to need a couple of good Surefires and plenty of CR123s to keep those going. The light is more important than an illuminated reticle. The NXS 1-4 with the illumination off works really well at night with a good light. Dial it down to 1X and it's pretty damn close to Aimpoint in the dark.
I suggest a Nightforce NXS 1-4 and an Aimpoint T-1 or T2. Put both in LaRue or Bobro mounts to swap between the two. They're both super tough and use the same batteries so you could lay in a stash of CR2032s that would last you until you're dead, old, or had slain all of Allah's army single-handed.
Another point, ACOG's have been field tested in combat since Operation Just Cause in 1989, according to Trijicon.
They seem to have worked very well for the guys over in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. I'd very well consider that a shit hit the fan situation.
ACOG hands down. TA33 on both my SHTF carbines.
I have 14 years old TA 45 1.5x ACOG that ran out about a year ago and the fiber works great. Just need to send it in to recharge to get another 14 or so years out of it.
titsonritz
10-08-15, 21:44
I chose a third option, that being a 1-4x or 1-6x with an illuminated etched reticle. The 1x w/ illumination give you the rapid acquisition of a red dot for close to mid range engagements with the ability to crank up the magnification for longer distance shots. No batteries left in the world, you still have a usable variable scope.
This is not just another ACOG vs. Aimpoint thread. I consider them both good-to-go; it's just a matter of preference.
*Both are built to withstand abuse
*Both have long element life/battery life
*Both have advantages and disadvantages as far as reticle pattern, eye relief, optical clarity, etc.
I have narrowed it down to a question of illumination serviceability, especially in a SHTF situation.
The premise is that for whatever reason, there has been some sort of catastrophe. You have an ACOG that's fairly new, but you don't know how new, and you can't send it off to have the element replaced, EVER, because of the SHTF situation. You also have an Aimpoint Comp M4s. For the Aimpoint, you purchased plenty of Energizer L91BP-8 Ultimate Lithium AA Batteries with a 20-year shelf life, but you're not sure if you would ever be able to resupply, again because of the SHTF situation.
So, it comes down to this:
Which do you prefer in a SHTF situation?
Please give some good reasons why you would pick one over the other. There are no right answers, just food for thought.
-I hate ACOG's. The eye relief sucks, and they aren't very useful up close. This is when "they are working". Nevermind the fantasy "tritium dead" situation.
-I love Aimpoints. Mine have always done right. That said, this is a fantasy question, and batteries can certainly die. Another, and more pressing issue, though, for me, is the PID factor. When searching for a target that I know is there, with contrasting lighting (say, a dark target in the shade at 150-200 yards), it can take me a bit WHEN I KNOW IT'S THERE!
-I have finally arrived at the Low Power Variable. I checked out most of them in the store, and owned a VCOG briefly. I finally have settled on the Nightforce 1-4 NXS. It is offered with bold reticles, and is tested to 1250g's impact (multiple angles), and 100 ft water-pressure, and handles both just fine. This is more abuse than ACOG's or Aimpoints are factory tested to. I feel confident that it is just as durable as anything else out there except a folded pair of irons maybe. Weight isn't bad at 17oz, and form factor is awesome with how short it is.
I've thought about this as well. My thinking leads me to believe that the ACOG would be the better optic for this circumstance for the following reasons:
1. If the tritium/fiber optic goes out at some point in time, you'll always have a very useful reticle at your disposal. If the Aimpoint dies, as in inoperable even with batteries, you'll have nothing more than a ghost ring sight.
2. Target identification with the ACOG is superior, no need for explanation.
3. Hypothetically speaking, if this catastrophe was an EMP, I'd still take my chances with the ACOG due to no electronics. This is all speculation at the moment. I wonder what Aimpoint has to say about the newer models being hardened against EMP.
This is just my opinion, I'd like to hear others opinion on this as well.
I was on the phone with AP for something unrelated to EMP, and asked them because...why not? They explained that the AP has a very small amount of "sail area" for the EMP waves to hit, and that it's sortof a Faraday cage, in a way, as well, so it would take a pretty darn strong/direct blast to knock one out. They did not give a more technical answer than that, but I found it sufficient.
I was on the phone with AP for something unrelated to EMP, and asked them because...why not? They explained that the AP has a very small amount of "sail area" for the EMP waves to hit, and that it's sortof a Faraday cage, in a way, as well, so it would take a pretty darn strong/direct blast to knock one out. They did not give a more technical answer than that, but I found it sufficient.
That's pretty neat man, I appreciate the info. That makes sense.
titsonritz
10-08-15, 22:16
I was on the phone with AP for something unrelated to EMP, and asked them because...why not? They explained that the AP has a very small amount of "sail area" for the EMP waves to hit, and that it's sortof a Faraday cage, in a way, as well, so it would take a pretty darn strong/direct blast to knock one out. They did not give a more technical answer than that, but I found it sufficient.
This is good to know.
Doc Safari
10-09-15, 09:12
Even after SHTF, you won't be able to see in the dark so you're going to need a couple of good Surefires and plenty of CR123s to keep those going. The light is more important than an illuminated reticle.
Good point. But it's been my experience out in the boonies that even with a bright light, a non-illuminated reticle is worthless in the dark. I actually could see iron sights better against dense foliage with a light than with a dark reticle. Both were horrible. Maybe just my experience.
The NXS 1-4 with the illumination off works really well at night with a good light. Dial it down to 1X and it's pretty damn close to Aimpoint in the dark.
Six in one, half dozen the other. Nothing wrong with your option, but a Comp M4S that takes AA batteries is still more capable of battery resupply than a scope that takes a CR2032. You could loot an abandoned convenience store and maybe scrounge an AA battery (or your TV remote?). But try finding a CR2032. Same or worse problem with the Aimpoint Pro's oddball battery.
Doc Safari
10-09-15, 09:17
ACOG hands down. TA33 on both my SHTF carbines.
My favorite also...and I STILL have to mount it all the way back on the last receiver slot to get good eye relief. That pretty much means it's the only ACOG I'll ever be able to use.
I have 14 years old TA 45 1.5x ACOG that ran out about a year ago and the fiber works great. Just need to send it in to recharge to get another 14 or so years out of it.
Given the earlier post that you need some kind of illumination for the target to use the ACOG in the dark no matter how much tritium is left, I wonder: if your flashlight is sufficiently bright, would the ACOG's fiber opitc pick up enough light that the reticle is lit even with dead or weak tritium?
Food for thought.
So the solution in that scenario is to pick the ACOG for its fiber optic and make damn sure you have enough flashlight batteries to last until the end of time.
My favorite also...and I STILL have to mount it all the way back on the last receiver slot to get good eye relief. That pretty much means it's the only ACOG I'll ever be able to use.
Given the earlier post that you need some kind of illumination for the target to use the ACOG in the dark no matter how much tritium is left, I wonder: if your flashlight is sufficiently bright, would the ACOG's fiber opitc pick up enough light that the reticle is lit even with dead or weak tritium?
Food for thought.
So the solution in that scenario is to pick the ACOG for its fiber optic and make damn sure you have enough flashlight batteries to last until the end of time.
Yes, with a flashlight on it does lightvup the reticle.
sevenhelmet
10-09-15, 09:44
Good to know. I'm not really worried about scope optics if there is an EMP- if it's strong enough to affect them, my house is probably gonna burn down anway from the copper wires catching fire.
Doc Safari
10-09-15, 09:47
Yes, with a flashlight on it does lightvup the reticle.
Given that, the tritium is--not necessarily a luxury--but no longer the weak link.
The flashlight batteries then become the weak link.
That makes the Aimpoint even less relevant because then you have TWO things that depend on batteries instead of just one.
ACOG is GTG forever with sufficient ambient illumination (I'm assuming civilian use where you won't have that $3,000 night vision scope).
Aimpoint is a paperweight without batteries.
That means get an ACOG, and focus instead on choosing the proper light/battery combo to compliment it.
I think we're getting somewhere.
sevenhelmet
10-09-15, 09:55
I agree, Glockster.
A lower-cost alternative to the ACOG is something like the Vortex Strike Eagle which uses a battery to illuminate an etched reticle. You'll lose all your illumination, but still have a reticle that shows up in black.
I already have an ACOG, so my opinion on this one is unfairly biased. :D
Slightly off topic, but for those of you who have had ARs longer than me (probably everyone else here), how long do you wait before you send in your ACOG for a new lamp? Is it subjective, or is there a commonly-used timeline?
Good point. But it's been my experience out in the boonies that even with a bright light, a non-illuminated reticle is worthless in the dark. I actually could see iron sights better against dense foliage with a light than with a dark reticle. Both were horrible. Maybe just my experience.
Six in one, half dozen the other. Nothing wrong with your option, but a Comp M4S that takes AA batteries is still more capable of battery resupply than a scope that takes a CR2032. You could loot an abandoned convenience store and maybe scrounge an AA battery (or your TV remote?). But try finding a CR2032. Same or worse problem with the Aimpoint Pro's oddball battery.
I do a LOT of night shooting and for me irons are basically useless in the dark even with a 1000 lumen light. I've used my NXS 1-4 w/FC3g reticle in the dark quite a bit and it's pretty much just as good with the reticle off inside of 30 yards or so. A front post looking through an Aimpoint is pretty handy as it's a visual index to help acquire a washed out dot.
My Aimpoint is an M4s.;)
daddyusmaximus
10-09-15, 10:10
I voted Aimpoint. I have the M4s now and absolutely love it. It's built like a tank, the batteries last a long time, and it's very fast on close in surprise defensive engagements. (My main concern) I would love to try the ACOG one day. I've only looked through them. I think that would be the better offensive optic, I'm just more concerned with defense as I don't see any SHTF turning into an EOTWAWKI deal. I'm thinking that the rule of law will always return, even if it does take a few years. Should I survive, I don't want to answer for too many "offensive" engagements to the new regime. Then again, if the new regime is real bad, that could be the EOTWAWKI. Irons are a must first, then the optic.
Doc Safari
10-09-15, 10:23
Frankly, in a perfect world I prefer one of the larger Aimpoints (PRO, Comp M4, etc) to ANYTHING.
I like the large field of view, adjustable intensity, long battery life, ability to use AA batteries (in the Comp anyway), and the "floating" dot that means you can be a little sloppy acquiring the target.
BUT, in world where you might not be able to resupply batteries after a SHTF catastrophe, I've conceded I need to learn to use an ACOG even though I don't like some of its quirks.
Aimpoints and ACOGs are both my "must have" optics, but even though I prefer the Aimpoints I see the ACOGs are less vulnerable to becoming paperweights.
All this SHTF for years talk is ridiculous.
Why hamstring yourself into an optic that has been surpassed in capability / versatility because of some ridiculous fantasy.
I got stuck deep in rural Mexico last year with intermittent running water, no electricity, no nothing, and had my truck been out of gas, I could have hopped on a horse and had whatever batteries I wanted within a day. You really think it's gonna come to that here?
Doc Safari
10-09-15, 11:22
All this SHTF for years talk is ridiculous.
Why hamstring yourself into an optic that has been surpassed in capability / versatility because of some ridiculous fantasy.
I got stuck deep in rural Mexico last year with intermittent running water, no electricity, no nothing, and had my truck been out of gas, I could have hopped on a horse and had whatever batteries I wanted within a day. You really think it's gonna come to that here?
I hope it's just an academic exercise. Still, for what, 50 years?, people thought we might have a nuclear war and Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD). I'm not saying Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" is prophetic, but you never know when circumstances will leave you stranded with only Murphy's Law as your constant companion.
It's a matter of reducing your "vulnerability" footprint.
I wear glasses, and don't you think that night and day I wonder what I would do if there was a SHTF situation and I couldn't get replacements?
It's a mental exercise that gets you thinking of your vulnerabilities and what you'd do in a certain scenario, and what you can do to minimize your chances of being up shit creek without a paddle.
Do I think this scenario is probable? No. Do I think that even the best-laid plans of mice and men can turn to doo-doo in a heartbeat? Yes.
Even if it's not likely, it IS possible and everyone knows it.
Otherwise movies like "Red Dawn" or "The Road" wouldn't have an audience, and probably none of us would be preppers.
Singlestack Wonder
10-09-15, 12:45
It's an easy decision. Aimpoint M4. With gazillions of AA batteries in the world, I'd rather have something that works in all lighting conditions vs. an acog that can't be reliably used when shooting from a dark area into a highly lit area due to the reticle disappearing.
Good point. But it's been my experience out in the boonies that even with a bright light, a non-illuminated reticle is worthless in the dark. I actually could see iron sights better against dense foliage with a light than with a dark reticle. Both were horrible. Maybe just my experience.
Six in one, half dozen the other. Nothing wrong with your option, but a Comp M4S that takes AA batteries is still more capable of battery resupply than a scope that takes a CR2032. You could loot an abandoned convenience store and maybe scrounge an AA battery (or your TV remote?). But try finding a CR2032. Same or worse problem with the Aimpoint Pro's oddball battery.
Every convenience and grocery store I've been to has 2032 batteries. They don't have anywhere near as many as AAs though. But how many people are going to grab the watch batteries when looting? They'll be grabbing the AA, C, and D batteries for flashlights, radios, and other important electronics.
SomeOtherGuy
10-09-15, 14:00
I really doubt that ammo will still be available if there's a decade-plus SHTF event so that batteries dry up.
Between your two choices I'd go ACOG with the crosshair reticle, so it's still a great day scope regardless of the tritium.
But I would probably choose a bombproof variable, like the Razor 1-6x, over both. I keep reading reports here and elsewhere that the 1-6x Razor is seeing combat use on both personal and .50 BMG weapons and is apparently holding up to it. Downsides are weight and cost, but it's a more flexible option than a fixed ACOG.
I really doubt that ammo will still be available if there's a decade-plus SHTF event so that batteries dry up.
Between your two choices I'd go ACOG with the crosshair reticle, so it's still a great day scope regardless of the tritium.
But I would probably choose a bombproof variable, like the Razor 1-6x, over both. I keep reading reports here and elsewhere that the 1-6x Razor is seeing combat use on both personal and .50 BMG weapons and is apparently holding up to it. Downsides are weight and cost, but it's a more flexible option than a fixed ACOG.
I think you're over estimating how much shooting you'll have to likely do and underestimating how much ammo people have stockpiled.
And for every person that dies, their excess ammo is up for grabs.
So the tritium will be done in 12-15 years on the ACOG, and quality batteries have, say, a 20 year shelf-life? Those same batteries, as mentioned, have to power your light, as well. In the day time, any sights or optics work, but at night, the light is the important gear. If the light is done due to battery expiration, then the rifle is essentially a daytime-only piece of gear regardless of what optic you've got. So, I'd pick the optic off of perceived engagement requirements, rather than ultimate longevity, because, as long as the rifle has irons, the optic is a luxury anyway.
At least that's my view on it. Then the likelihood of you even being alive 20 years into a SHTF event comes into play... 20 years is a long time without established medical support. You may win all your gun fights, but tripping over a root and snapping your neck may do you in.
Doc Safari
10-09-15, 14:56
So the tritium will be done in 12-15 years on the ACOG, and quality batteries have, say, a 20 year shelf-life? Those same batteries, as mentioned, have to power your light, as well. In the day time, any sights or optics work, but at night, the light is the important gear. If the light is done due to battery expiration, then the rifle is essentially a daytime-only piece of gear regardless of what optic you've got. So, I'd pick the optic off of perceived engagement requirements, rather than ultimate longevity, because, as long as the rifle has irons, the optic is a luxury anyway.
At least that's my view on it. Then the likelihood of you even being alive 20 years into a SHTF event comes into play... 20 years is a long time without established medical support. You may win all your gun fights, but tripping over a root and snapping your neck may do you in.
An optic is not a luxury to someone with poor or aging eyesight. In fact, a MAGNIFIED optic is not a luxury to poor or aging eyesight. Plus, how many posts have you read just on this forum of people complaining that their astigmatism doesn't let them see an Aimpoint dot very clearly, but the etched reticle of the ACOG is just fine?
But you raise a good point which we've discussed already: the battery-powered flashlight is your weak link.
In a real-world scenario, pick whatever optic you want as long as you have batteries for it.
The ideal, IMHO, is one that takes AA batteries and you can use Lithium Energizer Ultimates with 20-year shelf life, but YMMV.
Are there any flashlight batteries that have that kind of shelf life, especially since the "good" ones take CR123's?
Are there any tactical flashlights that are both durable under harsh conditions, and take Energizer Ultimate AA batteries?
An optic is not a luxury to someone with poor or aging eyesight. In fact, a MAGNIFIED optic is not a luxury to poor or aging eyesight. Plus, how many posts have you read just on this forum of people complaining that their astigmatism doesn't let them see an Aimpoint dot very clearly, but the etched reticle of the ACOG is just fine?
That's a good point, and something I didn't consider.
But you raise a good point which we've discussed already: the battery-powered flashlight is your weak link.
In a real-world scenario, pick whatever optic you want as long as you have batteries for it.
The ideal, IMHO, is one that takes AA batteries and you can use Lithium Energizer Ultimates with 20-year shelf life, but YMMV.
Are there any flashlight batteries that have that kind of shelf life, especially since the "good" ones take CR123's?
Are there any tactical flashlights that are both durable under harsh conditions, and take Energizer Ultimate AA batteries?
The Surefire M600AA and E2LAA utilize AA's, so paired with a CompM4, you could just stock the same batteries. At least I think you can... I'm no expert on all the battery types for flash lights out there.
Doc Safari
10-09-15, 15:29
The Surefire M600AA .
This one is easily rail-mounted, to boot.
Sooooo.........we are narrowing it down real quick here.
The perfect SHTF setup:
ACOG that doesn't take batteries, or Aimpoint Comp M4S or M4 that uses AA batteries.
Surefire M600AA that uses AA batteries and readily mounts to a rail.
Energizer L91BP-8 Ultimate AA Lithium batteries with a 20-year shelf life.
Bring on the SHTF.
daddyusmaximus
10-09-15, 15:55
I think you're over estimating how much shooting you'll have to likely do and underestimating how much ammo people have stockpiled.
And for every person that dies, their excess ammo is up for grabs.
So is their batteries.
So is their batteries.
In the context of TEOTWAWKI, battery shelf life is a big concern, regardless if they have any or not.
Voted other.
Something with an etched reticle. Be it a fixed power prismatic or variable is up to you, but there is absolutely zero worry about batteries or element lifespan to worry about to begin with.
Another vote for a variable optic with an etched reticle. Go one step farther and get an illuminated reticle to get the best of both worlds.
Amen! My choice would be the same. For me it's a Swarovski Z6i 1-6. A true 1x with brighter than Aimpoint illumination. If the electronics fail or I run out of batteries it has a BRT reticle.
Now between an Aimpoint and an ACOG, I would choose Aimoint. In my experience it's much easier to use a red dot for distance shooting than a fixed power for up close. Even in a post apocalyptic whatever, I still expect up close engagements will outnumber far off just as they do now. If it's the end of times, and I have one rifle it has to be useable inside a structure as well as outside. And while some folks can live with a small RDS on top of or offset from a fixed power optic - that's not for me. No cheek weld and other issues. Plus for your scenario it takes batteries.
On the 2032 argument. Nearly every key fob out there has one.
Once teslas battery plant is finished in Nevada, lithium batteries will be av available by the bushel basket.
TimeOnTarget
10-10-15, 10:44
An optic is not a luxury to someone with poor or aging eyesight. In fact, a MAGNIFIED optic is not a luxury to poor or aging eyesight.
Are there any tactical flashlights that are both durable under harsh conditions, and take Energizer Ultimate AA batteries?
+1 on aging eyesight!. I have both optics, but I will vote for a variable with etched reticle for arguments sake.
This is my go to flashlight now, but it is CR123 http://www.elzetta.com/
This light will take all battery types CR123, AA, and AAA. They do not officially list AAA, but I tried it and they work like a champ!
http://www.streamlight.com/en-us/product/product.html?pid=247
daddyusmaximus
10-10-15, 15:28
In the context of TEOTWAWKI, battery shelf life is a big concern, regardless if they have any or not.
My answers were directed to the OP about a SHTF, not the EOTWAWKI. I understand about shelf life. Just not worried about civilization being so far gone that it would make a difference. I prepare for SHTF, not EOTWAWKI. My definition of SHTF is temporary in nature. Almost any scenario (short of a global killer event) will have normalcy returning, at least to some extant, after a few (10 or less) years at most. I'm one of the people who's preps are centered around surviving a break in normalcy for a few days, few weeks, or up to a few years. Even if an event such as a major war is not over, there will be some supply of goods (even if diminished) available. Life may get hard, and expensive, but not so dire as many predict, IMHO. I am very concerned just how bad humanity can get within a very short time. This is why defensive preps are at the top of my list. However, once any event that causes an uproar is over, we tend to bounce back. I'm not worried about a complete and permanent collapse of human civilization, although I do have a Katana and a spear that require no batteries or ammo...
My answer now is different than it was 5-10 years ago. I'm leaning back to light, simple carbines. Possibly without optics, as in a real SHTF it will be more than enough, and I can use that weight better for other things.
But it would be different bugging in (Probably an Aimpoint) vs having to move. But I'm in the SE, and it's hard to find situations when a red-dot is not sufficient. Out west or the plains I might would pick different.
As mentioned in another thread, modern infantry 100# loadouts will be hard to sustain in a real SHTF/EOTWAWKI situation without resupply. And 90% of us could not do that even a day, even with energy dense MRE's... just takes too long to get your body/feet ready.
One last thing... if we are ever in a situation when AA Lithiums reach their shelf life, and alternatives are not available, we won't be worrying about the differences between ACOG's and Aimpoints!
Outlander Systems
10-12-15, 18:42
Surprised no one's mentioned an Accupoint.
One of the finest pieces of glass I've had the pleasure of peering through.
My answers were directed to the OP about a SHTF, not the EOTWAWKI. I understand about shelf life. Just not worried about civilization being so far gone that it would make a difference. I prepare for SHTF, not EOTWAWKI. My definition of SHTF is temporary in nature. Almost any scenario (short of a global killer event) will have normalcy returning, at least to some extant, after a few (10 or less) years at most. I'm one of the people who's preps are centered around surviving a break in normalcy for a few days, few weeks, or up to a few years. Even if an event such as a major war is not over, there will be some supply of goods (even if diminished) available. Life may get hard, and expensive, but not so dire as many predict, IMHO. I am very concerned just how bad humanity can get within a very short time. This is why defensive preps are at the top of my list. However, once any event that causes an uproar is over, we tend to bounce back. I'm not worried about a complete and permanent collapse of human civilization, although I do have a Katana and a spear that require no batteries or ammo...
The spear is the superior weapon :p
Surprised no one's mentioned an Accupoint.
One of the finest pieces of glass I've had the pleasure of peering through.
At least regarding the 1-4 accupoints... I'd rather have a G33 behind a T-2.
The spear is the superior weapon :p
At least regarding the 1-4 accupoints... I'd rather have a G33 behind a T-2.
I did the G33/T2 thing, and LOVE the combo. That said, now I am trying a Nightforce 1-4 FC-2, and will see how I like it, in comparison. Variety, spice, and all that.
1-6 variable, what ever happened to the squqd common optic ?
Try holding your rifle in one hand and a flashlight up to your optic in the other. That's how you'll be lighting the reticle of your ACOG.
The tritium may be good for 10-15 years, but it dims significantly after only 5-7 years.
I'm going to veer out of my lane and suggest gear isn't the solution, as what we have now is dependant on a perishable logistics train, but one of tactics. We have to look back to see what fighters did before tritium, night vision, sturdy flashlights and lit reticles. What tactics were used to defend against attacks from the dark? What tactics were used to launch successful night attacks? That's what's going to win fights when batteries and tritium become unavailable
Doc Safari
10-13-15, 14:54
The tritium may be good for 10-15 years, but it dims significantly after only 5-7 years.
First I've heard of this. If that's the case then the 10-15 year quoted useful life is a myth and (from a monetary standpoint) we're better off with Aimpoints and batteries with a 20-year shelf life. I'd like to know where you get this figure.
And I'm not saying that as a challenge because I don't believe you. I've also read posts here and there that the diode in an Aimpoint dims somewhat in a few years.
I just want more than hearsay.
I'm going to veer out of my lane and suggest gear isn't the solution, as what we have now is dependant on a perishable logistics train, but one of tactics. We have to look back to see what fighters did before tritium, night vision, sturdy flashlights and lit reticles. What tactics were used to defend against attacks from the dark? What tactics were used to launch successful night attacks? That's what's going to win fights when batteries and tritium become unavailable
Well, of course, but this is more of a "gear" thread and not an attempt to get an absolute answer to every scenario.
Outlander Systems
10-13-15, 15:14
Bros, I'll say this:
If the lights are out, and you can't get batteries for 10 years, you've got bigger survival tasks at hand than what optic to use.
Monrovia Liberia:
http://static1.therichestimages.com/cdn/864/572/90/cw/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Monrovia.jpg
In terms of the city of Monrovia, basic supplies are lacking: electricity is not widespread and where it is supplied it’s unreliable. Many residents in downtown Monrovia don’t have electricity in their homes. Now that conflict has ended in Liberia, many citizens are beginning to demand the infrastructure that would be expected of a capital city but it’s slow in coming. Roads remain in disrepair and clean water is as unreliable as the electricity: most citizens rely on water tankers driving throughout the capital to supply them with water. The narrow streets of Monrovia are no longer suitable for the increasing amount of cars on the roads and for those without cars, public transport is virtually non-existent. Healthcare, too, is sorely lacking, Large slums make up the city and more recently flooding has increased the spread of diseases and caused landslides in the slums.
If you've made it 10 years in conditions worse than Monrovia; you're a stud.
If you are looking for a practical, realistic SHTF situation, Ukraine and Syria come to mind.
The arguments FOR the Trijicon are less about battery-resupply/ZOMG-SHTEOTWAWKI than about a robust optic that doesn't rely on electronics.
Doc Safari
10-13-15, 15:17
The arguments FOR the Trijicon are less about battery-resupply/ZOMG-SHTEOTWAWKI than about a robust optic that doesn't rely on electronics.
I tend to agree. And even with dead Tritium, you've still got a perfectly useable etched reticle on the ACOG. With a bright enough flashlight, you might even be able to use it at night.
Of course, the Aimpoint is a paperweight if the electronics are busted.
What finally brought me to ACOGs is the lack of dependence on batteries, and the fact that I've read posts from people supposedly coming back from the sandbox who say they've seen ACOGs survive abuse that even iron sights couldn't.
Fredericianer
10-13-15, 15:17
If it was me, I think I'd go for the ACOG or an ELCAN in a SHTF situation (if I had the choice).
First I've heard of this. If that's the case then the 10-15 year quoted useful life is a myth and (from a monetary standpoint) we're better off with Aimpoints and batteries with a 20-year shelf life. I'd like to know where you get this figure.
And I'm not saying that as a challenge because I don't believe you. I've also read posts here and there that the diode in an Aimpoint dims somewhat in a few years.
I just want more than hearsay.
Well, of course, but this is more of a "gear" thread and not an attempt to get an absolute answer to every scenario.
That's the experience falfilers were having with tritium lamps on SUIT optics
WickedWillis
10-13-15, 18:02
If it was me, I think I'd go for the ACOG or an ELCAN in a SHTF situation (if I had the choice).
The ELCAN Spectr DR 1-4 is my dream optic. On topic, the ruggedness and reliability of the ACOG's makes this an easy decision for me personally. I love mine.
Boba Fett v2
10-13-15, 18:52
Extended SHTF ideal set-up:
1. Iron Sights
2. LPVO with back-up iron sights
3. RDS with back-up iron sights
If you're in a SHTF scenario for more than a decade you'll probably wish you were dead or fairly close to it.
Bros, I'll say this:
If the lights are out, and you can't get batteries for 10 years, you've got bigger survival tasks at hand than what optic to use.
Monrovia Liberia:
http://static1.therichestimages.com/cdn/864/572/90/cw/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Monrovia.jpg
If you've made it 10 years in conditions worse than Monrovia; you're a stud.
If you are looking for a practical, realistic SHTF situation, Ukraine and Syria come to mind.
The arguments FOR the Trijicon are less about battery-resupply/ZOMG-SHTEOTWAWKI than about a robust optic that doesn't rely on electronics.
Yes, having no batteries is only a plus. The main reason I say ACOG is because there is over 25 years of documented combat use from guys who have been there and done that. I RARELY have seen/heard people talk about their ACOGs shitting the bed. They have definitely been fielded in SHTF environments.
I chose the Aimpoint. A folding AA solar charger is cheap & light, include some Eneloop rechargeables and battery shelf life becomes moot.
Tomac
In shtf, you're going to want was much stand off distance as possible.
Something tough, that works without batteries. Unless you're planning night assaults.
Pray that it never gets that bad. The fudds will have the advantage. Lol...They'll have perimeters from hell with a 375 h&h fagnum magnun.
Don't be that guy who automatically excludes battery power at the draw. It's not a necessary or even reasonable as part of the discussion.
As to the subject, it seems like the ACOG is getting overwhelming support. I disagree, having experience shooting them there is little to no advantage of an ACOG over lower power scout optics. They are a well made middle man between a true RDS and rifle scope - they do neither optimally.
Try holding your rifle in one hand and a flashlight up to your optic in the other. That's how you'll be lighting the reticle of your ACOG.
The tritium may be good for 10-15 years, but it dims significantly after only 5-7 years.
I'm going to veer out of my lane and suggest gear isn't the solution, as what we have now is dependant on a perishable logistics train, but one of tactics. We have to look back to see what fighters did before tritium, night vision, sturdy flashlights and lit reticles. What tactics were used to defend against attacks from the dark? What tactics were used to launch successful night attacks? That's what's going to win fights when batteries and tritium become unavailable
That sounds like a defective product. I have an ACOG that I got in 2001 and it just got to the point last year that it no longer glows. I have a TA33 that I got in 2008 and it is just as bright as the TA33 I got this year. You are also taking about two different companies from two different countries.
1-6 variable, what ever happened to the squqd common optic ?
Will be re-visited in 2019, or 2020, I believe the word is.
I personally think a PROVEN quality LPV is far better than any ACOG, though. The Nightforce 1-4 NXS is the most proven, currently, that I am aware of. It is waterproof to 100 feet vs. the 300 feet of the ACOG, which is to its disadvantage, but it is tested to over several hundred g's more impact than Trijicon tests the ACOG. It offers near true 1X performance with a bold reticle, and 4X performance at distance, with a much friendlier eyebox to boot.
BrigandTwoFour
10-14-15, 14:57
The ELCAN Spectr DR 1-4 is my dream optic. On topic, the ruggedness and reliability of the ACOG's makes this an easy decision for me personally. I love mine.
My only concern about the ELCAN is the mount.
I have the Specter OS 4x, and it is really a fantastic little optic. The glass is amazing, and I really like the illumination options. But the ARMS mount is less than confidence inspiring. I have the Mk II adjustable levers installed, and it's still loose on one of my uppers (an older Spikes, the three BCM's are all perfect). The way the mount clamps down on the upper looks to me like it could be prone to bending and/or wearing out over time. I've heard of guys in the field shimming the mounts with pieces of aluminum to get around this problem.
I thought this issue was going to be mitigated when I found out that ADM was looking at developing their own replacement mount, but they recently told me that the project fell through since the mount is integral to the optic.
In all likelihood, this will never be an issue for me. My uses don't include relying on the ELCAN to save my life or limb. But in a theoretical SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation, I feel like I'd rather have a better mounting solution.
That sounds like a defective product. I have an ACOG that I got in 2001 and it just got to the point last year that it no longer glows. I have a TA33 that I got in 2008 and it is just as bright as the TA33 I got this year. You are also taking about two different companies from two different countries.
That fits with the experience the Falfilers have been having with SUIT tritium lamps. The lamps go dead between 12 & 15 years. What they were seeing after 5-7 years is the tritium was noticeably dimmer when compared to a fresh lamp.
In preparation for a time when I can no longer get batteries for my Aimpoint, I would buy a low powered variable, like the Leupold Mk6 1x6. When the Balloon Goes Up, I'd continue running my Aimpoint until it's useless, then switch. Or, I'd simply switch between the two (until the Aimpoint became useless) according to my anticipated needs. When the Aimpoint was stored away, I'd flip the battery around to prevent it draining (my Aimpoint has no power switch)
BrigandTwoFour
10-14-15, 16:24
That fits with the experience the Falfilers have been having with SUIT tritium lamps. The lamps go dead between 12 & 15 years. What they were seeing after 5-7 years is the tritium was noticeably dimmer when compared to a fresh lamp.
In preparation for a time when I can no longer get batteries for my Aimpoint, I would buy a low powered variable, like the Leupold Mk6 1x6. When the Balloon Goes Up, I'd continue running my Aimpoint until it's useless, then switch. Or, I'd simply switch between the two (until the Aimpoint became useless) according to my anticipated needs. When the Aimpoint was stored away, I'd flip the battery around to prevent it draining (my Aimpoint has no power switch)
The differences in the lives of the tritium illumination lamps are vials being used. The half life of Tritium is ~12.5 years. A fresh vial will probably be good for that long. But one that is already 5 or 6 years into its service life before being used is already behind the curve.
The only tritium production facility in the US is the Savannah River Site, which belongs to the Department of Energy. That location is operated primarily for the maintenance of the nuclear weapon stockpile, and I don't know how much "extra" they produce for the non-governmental world. For a long time, we (the country) were stuck with what we had left after the end of the Cold War. I would bet a lot of the vials floating around out there are from this period.
Doc Safari
10-14-15, 16:30
I wonder how Trijicon keeps track of how old a tritium vial is before they install it in an ACOG?
The fact that these sell pretty consistently tells me they probably don't have stock for several years before installing it. Still, given the procurement process, lead times, and whatnot it's difficult to imagine that if you purchase an ACOG today that the tritium element will only be a few weeks old. Probably at best we're talking a few months old. I HOPE that Trijicon isn't installing 5-year old vials into new ACOGs.
Wonder how we could find out?
BrigandTwoFour
10-14-15, 16:40
I wonder how Trijicon keeps track of how old a tritium vial is before they install it in an ACOG?
The fact that these sell pretty consistently tells me they probably don't have stock for several years before installing it. Still, given the procurement process, lead times, and whatnot it's difficult to imagine that if you purchase an ACOG today that the tritium element will only be a few weeks old. Probably at best we're talking a few months old. I HOPE that Trijicon isn't installing 5-year old vials into new ACOGs.
Wonder how we could find out?
Good questions, and I have no answers. I tried finding out how much tritium is in each lamp, but cannot find any such information. I would imagine there is probably some kind of marking on the lamp to help date it, but I haven't seen one of Trijicon's lamps, either (I don't feel like disassembling my TR-24 to look).
Doc Safari
10-14-15, 16:44
I would imagine there is probably some kind of marking on the lamp to help date it, but I haven't seen one of Trijicon's lamps, either (I don't feel like disassembling my TR-24 to look).
That probably would not be safe anyway.
Short of a representative from Trijicon replying in this thread, we probably won't have a way to find out.
I wonder how Trijicon keeps track of how old a tritium vial is before they install it in an ACOG?
The fact that these sell pretty consistently tells me they probably don't have stock for several years before installing it. Still, given the procurement process, lead times, and whatnot it's difficult to imagine that if you purchase an ACOG today that the tritium element will only be a few weeks old. Probably at best we're talking a few months old. I HOPE that Trijicon isn't installing 5-year old vials into new ACOGs.
Wonder how we could find out?
No idea, just speculating, but I'm sure they know when the tritium is produced and also when the vial is filled. From there they could calculate the "expiration date".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium_illumination
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium
Doc Safari
10-14-15, 16:53
I'd think it would be more productive to think of creative ways to illuminate the ACOG's fiber optic after dark once the tritium goes dim.
I'm not sure if we actually came to any conclusions already (though it was mentioned earlier), but if you have bright enough flashlight on your rifle would the ambient light be enough to at least give the reticle a dull illumination?
If so, what would the minimum number of lumens have to be on your flashlight to accomplish this?
I know people have discussed taping flashlights and even light sticks to their ACOG fiber optic, but these solutions seem silly.
Outlander Systems
10-14-15, 16:56
Unfortunately, I don't believe they are in production anymore...
Trijicon's new RX09 Reflex sights allow the use of Cyalume®, a non-electric, non-toxic chemical light stick that has been used by military and law enforcement agencies for many years. Cyalume sticks are extremely cost effective and easy to use. By bending a Cyalume stick until the glass vial inside breaks…then inserting the stick in the special port at the rear of the RX09 sight… the amber reticle on the Reflex will benefit from an extra boost of brightness that can last from 4 to 6 hours.
http://www.policeone.com/policeone/data/images/upload/Refexrx.gif
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/press-releases/69161/
I'd think it would be more productive to think of creative ways to illuminate the ACOG's fiber optic after dark once the tritium goes dim.
I'm not sure if we actually came to any conclusions already (though it was mentioned earlier), but if you have bright enough flashlight on your rifle would the ambient light be enough to at least give the reticle a dull illumination?
If so, what would the minimum number of lumens have to be on your flashlight to accomplish this?
I know people have discussed taping flashlights and even light sticks to their ACOG fiber optic, but these solutions seem silly.
BrigandTwoFour
10-14-15, 17:11
Assuming normal outdoor conditions, especially under some moonlight, the fiber optic will probably still transfer enough light to the reticle for a properly dark-adjusted eye to pick up.
The date of the tritium's manufacture is not really important, tritium made 20 years ago maintains the same chemical/radioactive properties as tritium harvested yesterday (you'd just have less of it). If I put a 'scoop' of 20 year old tritium in one vial, and a 'scoop' of brand new tritium in another, they will both last for ~12.5 years from the time I sealed it.
I always wondered if some enterprising individual could figure out a way to retrofit a tiny, very low output, LED module in place of the tritium lamp for use in the dark. That way, you could rely on the fiber for most uses, and then turn on the tiny LED for the rest.
Outlander Systems
10-14-15, 17:22
That's pretty much how the TX30 Tripower optics worked.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?337-Trijicon-Tripower-review
I always wondered if some enterprising individual could figure out a way to retrofit a tiny, very low output, LED module in place of the tritium lamp for use in the dark. That way, you could rely on the fiber for most uses, and then turn on the tiny LED for the rest.
BrigandTwoFour
10-14-15, 18:25
That's pretty much how the TX30 Tripower optics worked.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?337-Trijicon-Tripower-review
I do remember that one, but never shot it. I recall that the fiber optic glowed when running on battery power. I'm not sure if there is a way to get around that with separating the artificial illumination and fiber optic systems.
Outlander Systems
10-14-15, 18:46
You are correct.
The Tripower came with a little "hat" that covered up the FO. If battery power was used at night, the FO glowed like an electric stove burner.
The "hat" was the only way to circumvent the glow.
I do remember that one, but never shot it. I recall that the fiber optic glowed when running on battery power. I'm not sure if there is a way to get around that with separating the artificial illumination and fiber optic systems.
Try holding your rifle in one hand and a flashlight up to your optic in the other. That's how you'll be lighting the reticle of your ACOG.
The tritium may be good for 10-15 years, but it dims significantly after only 5-7 years.
I'm going to veer out of my lane and suggest gear isn't the solution, as what we have now is dependant on a perishable logistics train, but one of tactics. We have to look back to see what fighters did before tritium, night vision, sturdy flashlights and lit reticles. What tactics were used to defend against attacks from the dark? What tactics were used to launch successful night attacks? That's what's going to win fights when batteries and tritium become unavailable
These are crappy cell pics of my TA31H-G reticle in total darkness. This is a 2009 model. Well, purchased in 2009. First pic is the untouched original, second is the enlarged image. I haven't noticed any degradation of the illumination, and as you can see it is still quite usable. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/14/9f4065da5643c9c15011089f364b1027.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/14/843498f357f05720fae7f03960077397.jpg
Sent from my iPhone
My only concern about the ELCAN is the mount.
I have the Specter OS 4x, and it is really a fantastic little optic. The glass is amazing, and I really like the illumination options. But the ARMS mount is less than confidence inspiring. I have the Mk II adjustable levers installed, and it's still loose on one of my uppers (an older Spikes, the three BCM's are all perfect). The way the mount clamps down on the upper looks to me like it could be prone to bending and/or wearing out over time. I've heard of guys in the field shimming the mounts with pieces of aluminum to get around this problem.
I thought this issue was going to be mitigated when I found out that ADM was looking at developing their own replacement mount, but they recently told me that the project fell through since the mount is integral to the optic.
In all likelihood, this will never be an issue for me. My uses don't include relying on the ELCAN to save my life or limb. But in a theoretical SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation, I feel like I'd rather have a better mounting solution.
Everyone I have talked to that spent any amount of time using them hard, hates the Elcan. I am sure some will disagree, but overwhelmingly, people I know choose LPV's over them.
I wonder how Trijicon keeps track of how old a tritium vial is before they install it in an ACOG?
The fact that these sell pretty consistently tells me they probably don't have stock for several years before installing it. Still, given the procurement process, lead times, and whatnot it's difficult to imagine that if you purchase an ACOG today that the tritium element will only be a few weeks old. Probably at best we're talking a few months old. I HOPE that Trijicon isn't installing 5-year old vials into new ACOGs.
Wonder how we could find out?
Trijicon pistol sights have a year marking for the tritium vials on the side. ACOGs might have a similar marking somewhere with the bible verse and other text that no one ever reads.
I run a LPV now because I have an astigmatism. If I had normal people eyes, I'd have an Aimpoint and that's what I'd want to use come EOTWAWKI. I'll run out of ammo long before worrying about batteries becomes an issue.
Idk, I don't plan on getting into constant gunfights and I have enough ammo to last multiple lifetimes of hunting.
Mysteryman
10-15-15, 00:24
I run a LPV now because I have an astigmatism. If I had normal people eyes, I'd have an Aimpoint and that's what I'd want to use come EOTWAWKI. I'll run out of ammo long before worrying about batteries becomes an issue.
Think of this scenario from a different angle. You may have 500 rounds or 50,000 rounds stock piled. If you happen to survive this horrible event for say 15 years without ever firing a shot, then the quantity of ammo is moot. However, if your batteries died ten years earlier for example then you would be praying that you don't need to use those 500 or 50,000 rounds. The ammo is only useful if the rifle can be properly aimed. And, no one said you would or should burn through all your ammo before your batteries die.
A battery powered optic is great for low/no light shooting. But it's only great if you have some way of identifying the target before engaging. That usually means a white light. I'm sure you will run out of batteries for the light long before you will run out of batteries for your optic(unless your optic and light share a common battery, in which case you'll have some serious soul searching to do when it comes to rationing batteries). In this case you are left with an optic that works but is of little use in low/no light conditions. Add a couple more years to the situation and now your optic has no batteries either and your rifle is down to irons. It is here where the ACOG shines(pun intended) as it will continue to work as advertised in daylight and likely in low/no light conditions as well. We haven't factored in the possibility of electronic failures, however rare they may be, they are still a possibility with reddots whereas they are not with an ACOG.
Depending on the ACOG you get 3/3.5/4x magnification which helps in PID of targets as well as other intel gathering, something a non mag optic like a reddot cannot do.
MM
daddyusmaximus
10-15-15, 09:28
Think of this scenario from a different angle. You may have 500 rounds or 50,000 rounds stock piled. If you happen to survive this horrible event for say 15 years without ever firing a shot, then the quantity of ammo is moot. However, if your batteries died ten years earlier for example then you would be praying that you don't need to use those 500 or 50,000 rounds. The ammo is only useful if the rifle can be properly aimed. And, no one said you would or should burn through all your ammo before your batteries die.
A battery powered optic is great for low/no light shooting. But it's only great if you have some way of identifying the target before engaging. That usually means a white light. I'm sure you will run out of batteries for the light long before you will run out of batteries for your optic(unless your optic and light share a common battery, in which case you'll have some serious soul searching to do when it comes to rationing batteries). In this case you are left with an optic that works but is of little use in low/no light conditions. Add a couple more years to the situation and now your optic has no batteries either and your rifle is down to irons. It is here where the ACOG shines(pun intended) as it will continue to work as advertised in daylight and likely in low/no light conditions as well. We haven't factored in the possibility of electronic failures, however rare they may be, they are still a possibility with reddots whereas they are not with an ACOG.
Depending on the ACOG you get 3/3.5/4x magnification which helps in PID of targets as well as other intel gathering, something a non mag optic like a reddot cannot do.
MM
"If you happen to survive this horrible event for say 15 years without ever firing a shot" or not... its still 15 years of SHTF. That's not as nice and easy as 15 years in peacetime. Probably 50/50 if that wonderful little fiber optic gets broken.
You don't use your ACOG's 3/3.5/4x magnification for intel gathering. You use your more powerful binos.
I'm not knocking the ACOG. It's a good optic. Irons are your SHTF sights. Any optic over that is just an extra. 15 years bad enough that batteries are never available even from an outside source is a rough time. Probably a lot less people around by then. The need for a quick CQB red dot like the Aimpoint will be largely gone. After 15 rough years, when the tritium is gone and the fiber optic broke, an ACOG is just a 4x day scope. However, that 4x could come in handy, even if only during daylight.
Doc Safari
10-15-15, 09:53
Think of this scenario from a different angle. You may have 500 rounds or 50,000 rounds stock piled. If you happen to survive this horrible event for say 15 years without ever firing a shot, then the quantity of ammo is moot. However, if your batteries died ten years earlier for example then you would be praying that you don't need to use those 500 or 50,000 rounds. The ammo is only useful if the rifle can be properly aimed. And, no one said you would or should burn through all your ammo before your batteries die.
A battery powered optic is great for low/no light shooting. But it's only great if you have some way of identifying the target before engaging. That usually means a white light. I'm sure you will run out of batteries for the light long before you will run out of batteries for your optic(unless your optic and light share a common battery, in which case you'll have some serious soul searching to do when it comes to rationing batteries). In this case you are left with an optic that works but is of little use in low/no light conditions. Add a couple more years to the situation and now your optic has no batteries either and your rifle is down to irons. It is here where the ACOG shines(pun intended) as it will continue to work as advertised in daylight and likely in low/no light conditions as well. We haven't factored in the possibility of electronic failures, however rare they may be, they are still a possibility with reddots whereas they are not with an ACOG.
Depending on the ACOG you get 3/3.5/4x magnification which helps in PID of targets as well as other intel gathering, something a non mag optic like a reddot cannot do.
MM
Your scenario is why we decided that an optic/light mix that both take AA batteries is best because you can buy Energizer Lithium Ultimates which have a 20-year shelf life. There are also solar battery chargers to recharge AA's.
Right now we're trying to decide if there's a way to re-illuminate a dead ACOG reticle with a bright enough flashlight after dark. Will the ambient light illuminate the fiber optic enough to make the reticle usable after dark?
Doc Safari
10-15-15, 10:00
"If you happen to survive this horrible event for say 15 years without ever firing a shot" or not... its still 15 years of SHTF. That's not as nice and easy as 15 years in peacetime. Probably 50/50 if that wonderful little fiber optic gets broken.
You don't use your ACOG's 3/3.5/4x magnification for intel gathering. You use your more powerful binos.
I'm not knocking the ACOG. It's a good optic. Irons are your SHTF sights. Any optic over that is just an extra. 15 years bad enough that batteries are never available even from an outside source is a rough time. Probably a lot less people around by then. The need for a quick CQB red dot like the Aimpoint will be largely gone. After 15 rough years, when the tritium is gone and the fiber optic broke, an ACOG is just a 4x day scope. However, that 4x could come in handy, even if only during daylight.
By the time my dad turned 60, he could no longer see iron sights well enough to use them. An optic became essential. Hopefully you can store enough batteries with a 20-year shelf life to get by. With no tritium and a broken fiber optic, you can still use the ACOG in the daytime and hopefully hide at night or wait until the enemy is at point blank range. Not a good scenario I admit.
A good LPV like a Night-force 1-4...
...has a reticle useful day/night, far/near, illuminated or not, batteries or no.
...Allows "1X" for CQB
...Allows magnification for PID/precision at medium ranges.
...has a decade of GWOT under it's belt disclosing and allowing refinement of any flaws of design
...does not cause issues with astigmatism/aged eyes/corneal abrasions/etc.
I do not feel that there is a logical argument that can be made AGAINST it for a SHTF "do-all" carbine.
TimeOnTarget
10-16-15, 08:51
For my Brothers over 40, I offer this bit of information.
I am 47 and still have 20/15 distance vision, but my near vision now requires reading glasses to see any detail close up. It is a fact of life that I did not appreciate until it happened to me. Everything is more difficult in life now. I simply can't use iron sights with any real precision now.
I read about a new sight called See All, and thought "What the heck", I'll give it a try. The worst is that I would be out a Ben Franklin.
The See All sight is the best and most simple "Iron" sight I have found. It is kinda like magic. It just works. It is always in focus no matter how you set it up. The little triangle is so small that it allows for very precise zeroing. I rang steel out to 300 yards with my 16 inch AR all day long quickly and easily.
It does not need batteries and does not really have any moving parts to break. It weighs nothing and is low profile.
You be the judge. I am not affiliated with the company. I am just a dude with aging eyes...
A review:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/jeremy-s/gear-review-see-all-open-sight/
The company:
https://seeallopensight.com/
Mysteryman
10-18-15, 12:28
"If you happen to survive this horrible event for say 15 years without ever firing a shot" or not... its still 15 years of SHTF. That's not as nice and easy as 15 years in peacetime. Probably 50/50 if that wonderful little fiber optic gets broken.
You don't use your ACOG's 3/3.5/4x magnification for intel gathering. You use your more powerful binos.
I'm not knocking the ACOG. It's a good optic. Irons are your SHTF sights. Any optic over that is just an extra. 15 years bad enough that batteries are never available even from an outside source is a rough time. Probably a lot less people around by then. The need for a quick CQB red dot like the Aimpoint will be largely gone. After 15 rough years, when the tritium is gone and the fiber optic broke, an ACOG is just a 4x day scope. However, that 4x could come in handy, even if only during daylight.
With a broken FO tube the ACOG still works. At night with the use of a white light the ACOG reticle still works, it is simply a black reticle not the cool red/green you're used to. Where the light points is where the target is and where you're looking. Using a black reticle with a white light at night is far from difficult. That being said, if you were say firing from a dark positon(think an alley) into a dimly lit area where you wouldn't want to use your white light, then the reticle may be difficult to see. There is no free lunch and there is no holy grail setup.
No batteries or dead electronics means a useless reddot. I never said that a magnified ACOG was my only or primary means of intel gathering, but it greatly aids in PID of the target and can be used to range find as well as observe. Perhaps your binoculars are broken, missing, or traded for ammo. Binoculars are also another piece of kit to source and carry, adding additional cost and weight.
Your scenario is why we decided that an optic/light mix that both take AA batteries is best because you can buy Energizer Lithium Ultimates which have a 20-year shelf life. There are also solar battery chargers to recharge AA's.
Right now we're trying to decide if there's a way to re-illuminate a dead ACOG reticle with a bright enough flashlight after dark. Will the ambient light illuminate the fiber optic enough to make the reticle usable after dark?
An optic powered by AA batteries is still susceptible to electronics failure. Streamlining your consumables is a no brainer but AA lights are not overly bright. Most decent lights require two batteries to get the necessary voltage for todays high output LED's. You're also forced to stockpile/store/carry twice as many batteries due to both your light and optic being electronic.
I would be all over a small aftermarket light that would clip onto the fibre optic tube on my ACOG for user adjustable night illumination. I think Trijicon should have pushed hard to offer a tri power ACOG as well as Accupoint. Call me crazy but I would be all over a 1-4/5/6x accupoint with a mil graduated tree(like the ACOG reticles) that is tritium, FO, and battery powered. They came close with the VCOG but it's a bit heavy, is missing the tritium and FO and costs a fortune. I think their MRO(ignoring the current issues) would have been a huge winner if it too had tri power capabilities.
MM
Doc Safari
10-19-15, 15:26
So this weekend I took out my M4 with the TA33R-8 ACOG on it (red chevron with BDC). My girlfriend brought her M4 with the Trijicon reflex sight on it.
As far as which sight is more "user friendly" I definitely preferred the 1x reflex sight with the simple amber dot.
The ACOG is a 3x beast that is going to take several range sessions to get used to. I'm so used to 1x optics (or no optics) that my hands were not as steady as I'd have liked while using the ACOG.
I don't know if I could learn to like the reflex sight per se. I've read too many complaints about reticle washout under certain conditions, plus if gripes of the tritium element not being useful for the full 15 years on an ACOG are true then that probably applies to the reflex sight as well.
That got me thinking. If I prefer an RDS to an ACOG, how do I talk myself into living with the battery issue? And then it dawned on me: your gun needs a resupply of ammo even in a SHTF situation. If you don't put aside enough for yourself before the crisis you may not be able to resupply. How are batteries any different?
So all other things being equal having to stash a supply of long-life batteries is really no different than having your prepper stash of ammo.
Sure, an electronic sight can fail even if you have a lifetime supply of batteries, but I have read of at least one instance (the range in Vegas) where an ACOG's seal failed and it fogged up.
The point being: nothing is foolproof.
A good electronic sight and a prepper stash of Lithium Ultimate batteries with a 20-year storage life is more or less equal to an ACOG, so it's a matter of preference.
My solution is to have some of each.
I don't know where a Trijicon reflex sight might fit in to the mix. I don't know enough about them to know if they are automatically an inferior choice or if that's just so much bunk.
Outlander Systems
10-19-15, 16:57
I'm selling my reflex. Not due to any flaws with it, but my eyes are too old for RDS.
They are fantastic, and the drawbacks are overhyped.
Get one with a polarizing filter, and soldier on. They've been my favorite optic for a very long time.
So this weekend I took out my M4 with the TA33R-8 ACOG on it (red chevron with BDC). My girlfriend brought her M4 with the Trijicon reflex sight on it.
As far as which sight is more "user friendly" I definitely preferred the 1x reflex sight with the simple amber dot.
The ACOG is a 3x beast that is going to take several range sessions to get used to. I'm so used to 1x optics (or no optics) that my hands were not as steady as I'd have liked while using the ACOG.
I don't know if I could learn to like the reflex sight per se. I've read too many complaints about reticle washout under certain conditions, plus if gripes of the tritium element not being useful for the full 15 years on an ACOG are true then that probably applies to the reflex sight as well.
That got me thinking. If I prefer an RDS to an ACOG, how do I talk myself into living with the battery issue? And then it dawned on me: your gun needs a resupply of ammo even in a SHTF situation. If you don't put aside enough for yourself before the crisis you may not be able to resupply. How are batteries any different?
So all other things being equal having to stash a supply of long-life batteries is really no different than having your prepper stash of ammo.
Sure, an electronic sight can fail even if you have a lifetime supply of batteries, but I have read of at least one instance (the range in Vegas) where an ACOG's seal failed and it fogged up.
The point being: nothing is foolproof.
A good electronic sight and a prepper stash of Lithium Ultimate batteries with a 20-year storage life is more or less equal to an ACOG, so it's a matter of preference.
My solution is to have some of each.
I don't know where a Trijicon reflex sight might fit in to the mix. I don't know enough about them to know if they are automatically an inferior choice or if that's just so much bunk.
Doc Safari
10-19-15, 17:08
I'm selling my reflex. Not due to any flaws with it, but my eyes are too old for RDS.
They are fantastic, and the drawbacks are overhyped.
Get one with a polarizing filter, and soldier on. They've been my favorite optic for a very long time.
The reflex sight is totally new to me.
Would you say they are as robust as an ACOG?
Is the reticle visible at night with your tactical light on?
I'm assuming once the tritium is dead it's still usable in the daytime?
I'm thinking that with the ability to cowitness with the irons, you could still use it with a dead tritium element at night, and it would just be a "ghost ring" for the irons after dark.
Outlander Systems
10-19-15, 17:16
Definitely the most tank like optic I've ever owned.
Reticle is visible at night through the tritium, a WML will wash it out against a light background unless you use the polarizing filter.
It is very useable during daylight conditions. The fiber optic is plenty bright.
The new RX3X Reflex sights are fantastic.
I always run BUIS so I wouldn't need to use a RDS as a ghost ring. It could be done at short engagement distances.
The reflex sight is totally new to me.
Would you say they are as robust as an ACOG?
Is the reticle visible at night with your tactical light on?
I'm assuming once the tritium is dead it's still usable in the daytime?
I'm thinking that with the ability to cowitness with the irons, you could still use it with a dead tritium element at night, and it would just be a "ghost ring" for the irons after dark.
Doc Safari
10-19-15, 17:23
The new RX3X Reflex sights are fantastic.
Link?
Outlander Systems
10-19-15, 18:00
https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product3.php?pid=RX34-C-800112
Link?
Mysteryman
10-19-15, 19:37
So this weekend I took out my M4 with the TA33R-8 ACOG on it (red chevron with BDC). My girlfriend brought her M4 with the Trijicon reflex sight on it.
As far as which sight is more "user friendly" I definitely preferred the 1x reflex sight with the simple amber dot.
The ACOG is a 3x beast that is going to take several range sessions to get used to. I'm so used to 1x optics (or no optics) that my hands were not as steady as I'd have liked while using the ACOG.
I don't know if I could learn to like the reflex sight per se. I've read too many complaints about reticle washout under certain conditions, plus if gripes of the tritium element not being useful for the full 15 years on an ACOG are true then that probably applies to the reflex sight as well.
That got me thinking. If I prefer an RDS to an ACOG, how do I talk myself into living with the battery issue? And then it dawned on me: your gun needs a resupply of ammo even in a SHTF situation. If you don't put aside enough for yourself before the crisis you may not be able to resupply. How are batteries any different?
So all other things being equal having to stash a supply of long-life batteries is really no different than having your prepper stash of ammo.
Sure, an electronic sight can fail even if you have a lifetime supply of batteries, but I have read of at least one instance (the range in Vegas) where an ACOG's seal failed and it fogged up.
The point being: nothing is foolproof.
A good electronic sight and a prepper stash of Lithium Ultimate batteries with a 20-year storage life is more or less equal to an ACOG, so it's a matter of preference.
My solution is to have some of each.
I don't know where a Trijicon reflex sight might fit in to the mix. I don't know enough about them to know if they are automatically an inferior choice or if that's just so much bunk.
I see where you are coming from, but having to stock pile batteries is yet another item to worry about and another cost.
MM
I see where you are coming from, but having to stock pile batteries is yet another item to worry about and another cost.
MM
With the price difference between an Aimpoint and an Acog you could buy a whole lot of batteries.
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
Heck, you could buy two aimpoint micros or three aimpoint pros for the cost of an ACOG (depending on the model). :)
BrigandTwoFour
10-20-15, 10:05
So this weekend I took out my M4 with the TA33R-8 ACOG on it (red chevron with BDC). My girlfriend brought her M4 with the Trijicon reflex sight on it.
As far as which sight is more "user friendly" I definitely preferred the 1x reflex sight with the simple amber dot.
The ACOG is a 3x beast that is going to take several range sessions to get used to. I'm so used to 1x optics (or no optics) that my hands were not as steady as I'd have liked while using the ACOG.
I think a lot of it comes down to how you use it. The OIE/OEF fight in the last 14 years has put a lot of emphasis on close up CQB style shooting. Most instructors these days focus on these types of tactics for civilians, because the emphasis is on protecting your home, where it will be CQB. Red dot sights absolutely excel for this type of shooting.
I believe ACOGs were designed for a more general purpose rifleman role. They embody the skill set of the last generation of warfare, which involved open spaces and more traditional shooting styles. For this, they are excellent. Trying to use an ACOG as you would a RDS/reflex is going to have disadvantages, just as using an RDS for making hits at 200-400 yards. It's all in how you plan on employing it.
Dist. Expert 26
10-20-15, 12:27
Having used an ACOG for 4 years, I can honestly say I prefer my Micro T-1. 4x isn't really that much magnification and I've seen WAY too many ACOGs fail to ever feel comfortable carrying one in a situation where I couldn't get it replaced. I would much rather run a bulletproof RDS that I can literally leave on for years with one battery. For engagements <300m I don't think it would be much of a disadvantage at all.
BrigandTwoFour
10-20-15, 18:17
Having used an ACOG for 4 years, I can honestly say I prefer my Micro T-1. 4x isn't really that much magnification and I've seen WAY too many ACOGs fail to ever feel comfortable carrying one in a situation where I couldn't get it replaced. I would much rather run a bulletproof RDS that I can literally leave on for years with one battery. For engagements <300m I don't think it would be much of a disadvantage at all.
I'm not doubting you, but I am curious. How many ACOGs have you seen fail, and how did they fail? Were they new ones or units that had been used and abused for years in service?
IMO, the failure rate difference between a quality "combat" scope (like an ACOG) and a quality RDS should be negligible.
Dist. Expert 26
10-20-15, 20:19
I'm not doubting you, but I am curious. How many ACOGs have you seen fail, and how did they fail? Were they new ones or units that had been used and abused for years in service?
IMO, the failure rate difference between a quality "combat" scope (like an ACOG) and a quality RDS should be negligible.
I've seen quite a few fail, most of the time due to the internal adjustment springs breaking or otherwise getting screwed up, making the optic impossible to zero. A lot of them had been used for years, but I have seen some newer ones fail. Whether or not this was due to user error is impossible to know without taking them apart. I'm not trying to say ACOGs aren't quality optics, because they absolutely are, I just feel that a Micro T-1 is superior.
I voted for acog, but use an H1. It is easy to stockpile batteries for 20 years along with a 2nd H1. If things are so bad that batteries can't be found in ten years, most of us will be dead from malnutrition, lack of medical care, etc. even if we never have to use a firearm for anything but shooting squirrels. A robust illuminated 1-6 would be ideal.
Doc Safari
10-21-15, 07:43
I think a lot of it comes down to how you use it. The OIE/OEF fight in the last 14 years has put a lot of emphasis on close up CQB style shooting. Most instructors these days focus on these types of tactics for civilians, because the emphasis is on protecting your home, where it will be CQB. Red dot sights absolutely excel for this type of shooting.
I believe ACOGs were designed for a more general purpose rifleman role. They embody the skill set of the last generation of warfare, which involved open spaces and more traditional shooting styles. For this, they are excellent. Trying to use an ACOG as you would a RDS/reflex is going to have disadvantages, just as using an RDS for making hits at 200-400 yards. It's all in how you plan on employing it.
One reason I chose the red chevron reticle is because I knew I could use it as a red dot up close, and I proved that at the range the other day. We shot up an old commode tank someone had left out in the desert, and I had no trouble using the chevron reticle as an RDS reticle at the less-than-50-yard range we were at.
I suspect any of the TA33 reticles would work for this.
Still, the reticle wasn't quite as fast to pick up as a dot, but with practice it would be. I sure like the ranging capability of the ACOG. But it will take practice to be more steady with that 3x.
ad_infinitum
10-21-15, 10:09
I have gone with an ACOG that has the cross reticle, so when the tritium dies or the reticle washes out I can still use it like any other scope.
Plus one.
The best ACOG is of course TA11J
ad_infinitum
10-21-15, 10:10
I've seen quite a few fail, most of the time due to the internal adjustment springs breaking or otherwise getting screwed up, making the optic impossible to zero. A lot of them had been used for years, but I have seen some newer ones fail. Whether or not this was due to user error is impossible to know without taking them apart. I'm not trying to say ACOGs aren't quality optics, because they absolutely are, I just feel that a Micro T-1 is superior.
Any ACOG is much tougher than micro.
I have an ACOG fail due to fogging but even then it remained useful.
ad_infinitum
10-21-15, 10:54
ACOG hands down. TA33 on both my SHTF carbines.
I have 14 years old TA 45 1.5x ACOG that ran out about a year ago and the fiber works great. Just need to send it in to recharge to get another 14 or so years out of it.
ACOG is dreadfully expensive to recharge. They quoted me some price like 560. Not cost-effective. Might as well buy a newer unit.
This is where a RDS has an advantage. Swap in a lithium AA and you are set . I don't believe the world will ever run out of AA cells. If you are paranoid, get buis.
ACOG without tritium is just another overpriced optic in the 200 range quality wise. Fails in the dark. Aimpoint rules with the dot you can easily see at nighttime.
The fact you never change batteries in the ACOG is a liability.
Having said that, an electronics - free ACOG is probably a little more reliable than any AP. Also, green ACOG last a lot longer than either red or amber, and much easier to see . IMO, red is the worst color. Least visible and burns out fastest.
ColtSeavers
10-21-15, 11:07
The fact you never change batteries in the ACOG is a liability.
Having a really hard time trying to figure this out...
Having a really hard time trying to figure this out...
I think what he's trying to say is, that having to send the Acog in to have the tritium replaced is worse than being able to simply swap a battery.
ad_infinitum
10-21-15, 11:51
Call Trijicon and inquire about the cost of tritium replacement, might be in for a sticker shock. It was over 500 two years ago when I checked last.
It is a semi disposable optic with a lifetime of about 15 years +/-. Figure that cost into the equation. Something like a 1-4 variable from an alpha brand that takes 2032 cells might be cheaper in the long run.
ramairthree
10-21-15, 15:53
All I can say is,
Time/entropy wins.
That seiko diver or sub you bought at the px in the 80s?
Does not glow any more.
Either do the sights you bought in the 90s.
Or the first aim point you bought. Finally killed the switch on my 1000 a few years ago.
Will your micro still work twenty years from now.
I have a hunting rifle with a 35 plus year old scope that works fine.
I have older irons that work fine.
I am not against the superiority of modern optics, and have plenty.
Just be sure you have some stuff that will work in your golden years.
I honestly believe that in totally austere environments, it's gonna get down to irons. The simpler and more robust the better. I currently have an ACOG. I'm not fond of it inside 50m really. I'll eventually get a RD. Probably an Aimpoint
Sent from my iPhone
Doc Safari
10-21-15, 17:14
All I can say is,
Time/entropy wins.
That seiko diver or sub you bought at the px in the 80s?
Does not glow any more.
Either do the sights you bought in the 90s.
Or the first aim point you bought. Finally killed the switch on my 1000 a few years ago.
Will your micro still work twenty years from now.
I have a hunting rifle with a 35 plus year old scope that works fine.
I have older irons that work fine.
I am not against the superiority of modern optics, and have plenty.
Just be sure you have some stuff that will work in your golden years.
My solution is to have some of both ACOGs and Aimpoints, having some for use and some "put away" for SHTF. The "put away" ones will at most be sighted in, then put in storage.
KISS does apply. Would the reflex sight be superior to either an ACOG or Aimpoint? Does the ACOG qualify as a good basic daytime scope even after the tritium dims? Same question for a 1-4 variable with tritium or a finite supply of batteries.
Irons are fine, but poor and/or aging eyesight make them harder to use.
Ultimately, I wonder if it's better to put back one Aimpoint Comp M4s with enough Energizer Lithium Ultimate AA's with a 20-year storage life and soldier on knowing you've got a "prepper" spare.
It seems like this is the best of all possible worlds, with the weak link being the batteries, and they become just like any other commodity that you better have put back before the crisis. How likely is it your Aimpoint electronics will fail, especially if the sight isn't used much?
All the choices with tritium require a return to the factory. With an Aimpoint that takes AA batteries, YOU are the factory and you can change the power source yourself.
I'm beginning to wish I had voted for the Aimpoint, with the caveat that 1) you stash one in near-new condition that is never taken out except to make sure it's still working, and 2) you choose the Aimpoint Comp M4 that uses AA batteries, and 3) you put back enough 20-year AA batteries that you don't have to worry anymore.
Other than that, you might as well choose a low-tech fixed power scope that's good in the daytime (and you just hide from bad guys at night, or make sure your weapon light overcomes the limitations of the plain Jane scope).
I tried using a Nikon scope with a bright weaponlight, and the black reticle was just nearly invisible at night. It was worthless. I'm finding I prefer an RDS for up close and personal, but out where I live an ACOG with ranging capability is needed for distance.
There's just not one perfect solution. (And I've tried a 1-4 variable but it has its quirks I don't like too).
What are the best AA batteries?
What are the best AA batteries?
I'm not sure they're the "best" but I use Energizer Lithium in all my harsh condition applications. They hold their charge well & last a long time in prolonged sub-zero temps.
RocketScott
10-21-15, 18:33
I didn't see a mention of the led acog so I thought I should bring it up.
I've been holding off on an acog just because of the tritium life. I'm fine swapping out sights on my handguns after several year but not with the acog. Just not worth it to me.
With the led the issues with tritium are gone. Problem solved (?)
militarymoron
10-21-15, 19:45
I have ACOGs, Aimpoints etc, and if i have to choose ONE optic over all of them it'd be my NXS 2.5-10 compact scope with illuminated reticle; because of my astigmatism and crappy eyesight. the magnification really helps me see what i'm shooting at past 100 yds.
my current setup is the NXS and an offset mini red dot at 45-degrees. yes, i'd have to carry a supply of coin batteries.
Coal Dragger
10-21-15, 20:18
For long term use with little to no support or ability to affect repairs, recharge gas lamps, or get batteries I would choose a conventional scope with an etched glass reticle of the toughest construction I could find. Then put it in the best made mount I could find.
If said optic were to provide variable magnification, that would be a bonus as long as durability was there. Most new variables from reputable makers would pass this requirement. So it would be a variable. I'd prefer something as close to a true 1X as possible on the low end, and at least 4X on the top end although 6X would be even better, 8X even better still as long as the objective diameter could support it with a decent sized exit pupil. When exit pupil drops below 4mm I find the image less forgiving from the ocular lens in anything but bright lighting conditions.
If illumination were an option, with the understanding it won't be able to work indefinately without batteries or tritium recharge, I would choose the battery option. Only because it is easier to keep a supply of long shelf life batteries on hand, than a tritium lamp. Plus some are rechargeable, and theoretically a solar charger could be used to extend life on a battery. Also given my druthers I'd pick something that used a pretty commonly available battery size, a AA, or AAA would be ideal since rechargeable lithium versions are out there. Other sizes aren't a deal breaker though.
I can think of a few scopes that meet one or more of these preferences. A Trijicon VCOG or similar optic makes a strong case for itself, as do more than a few others by Leuopold, Nightforce, Vortex, Bushnell, Khales, S&B, and others.
kelly neal
10-21-15, 20:44
In a true SHTF situation where there is any sort of longevity or true durability required, I would want 1) a mil spec optic 2) an optic which will function without batteries 3) preferably variable. So as a Team Leupold guy, I would roll with a Mk 6 1-6X (any reticle will do but TMR might be theoretically the best in this scenario) or if I was feeling spendy a Mk 8 1.1-8X. Other good options include the S&B, Kahles, and Trijicon variables. Even if longevity wasn't an issue, I would still want a magnified optic over any RDS. Magnification = seeing more. If stuck between Aimpoint and ACOG, I would roll with an ACOG.
BrigandTwoFour
10-21-15, 22:28
I think complaints about the price of replacing tritium vials needs to be put in context. How many dollars in ammunition will a serious shooter expend over the service life of a tritium vial? Compared to that expense, the cost of tritium replacement is miniscule. Worrying about the few hundred dollar cost that one might incur in 10 years just doesn't seem that important to me.
I can see it being excessive if your primary use is the occasional range trip and showing off your rifle to your buddies. But to the serious user...meh.
Also, IMO, in a truly long term SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation...your batteries don't have that good a shelf life. I agree with others that if you survive that long (like...decades) you are probably relying on iron sights and some other observation device like binoculars. You are probably not likely to risk very long range shots due to ammunition waste and a stronger need to not give away your position.
Coal Dragger
10-22-15, 03:15
The whole SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation argument is obsessed over far too much in my view. That being said I'll still stick with a tough high quality variable for that scenario. Yeah, the illumination won't work after your batteries or tritium runs out, but you're still left with a viable daylight optic. Which over the long term could be invaluable, remember over the course of decades you might need that magnified optic to hit anything at all as your eyes age. You might not be able to use iron sights or RDS's into your late 40's and beyond, but I'll bet you could dial in the diopter on a variable or fixed power scope equipped with adjustment.
The whole SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation argument is obsessed over far too much in my view. That being said I'll still stick with a tough high quality variable for that scenario. Yeah, the illumination won't work after your batteries or tritium runs out, but you're still left with a viable daylight optic. Which over the long term could be invaluable, remember over the course of decades you might need that magnified optic to hit anything at all as your eyes age. You might not be able to use iron sights or RDS's into your late 40's and beyond, but I'll bet you could dial in the diopter on a variable or fixed power scope equipped with adjustment.
I don't know. I know in the state I'm from, SHTF in a big way, and it was every man for himself, and you had better had a rifle. I don't think it's overthought, personally. YMMV.
Also, SHTF throughout history quite often. Have we somehow reached a point in history where there will be no more genocides, wars in North American soil, or abuses by tyrannical governments?
Coal Dragger
10-22-15, 05:59
No, but the notion that you must be totally self sufficient is in my view not a realistically achievable goal. In the long term, a situation where your way of living has ended, and society at large has broken down or the infrastructure supporting modern living has failed there are so many variables to worry about that are far more likely to kill you in the long run than your choice of sights on a long gun. Inadequate medical care for injuries or disease, poor diet/starvation, to name but a few would be near the top of a realistic list. Many people also seem to assume that their neighbors, who only weeks before were friendly law abiding citizens will turn into savage raiders or zombies or some shit hell bent on taking all of your stuff and then eating your brains. I doubt this would be the case in most places, at least not immediately. Realistically if you survive the zombie horde of starving brain eating hipster douchebags, you will find like minded people to work together with to keep yourself fed, sheltered, and otherwise living.
If we really want to stress over weapon selection for a rifle system that can be serviceable for several decades with little support, a few things in my mind are mandatory. First of all it better be reliable and made of top notch materials that will hold up to long term use, by someone who gives a shit about what they are doing; shoddily made clunker firearms need not apply. Secondly it should probably be as accurate as possible while still being reliable; ammo doesn't grow on trees and long term you don't want to be wasting a lot of it missing your target, this is where good sights also come in to play. Third it needs to be powerful enough to accomplish realistic tasks, so if you need to put meat on the table and you can only have one long gun, consider carefully how much oomph you need to kill edible critters in your area.
Sighting priority for me would be in this order of importance:
1.) Good rugged iron sights, adjustable for windage and elevation without special tools. When all else fails, iron sights like the cockroach will probably still work so long as you can see them to utilize them. By iron sights I mean sights actually made of a ferrous metal, not plastic or pot metal garbage. By adjustable for windage and elevation without special tools I mean the rear sight has knobs and shit, and the front sight can be adjusted too if needs be with nothing more complicated than an allen wrench or bullet nose. If they fold down when not in use it would be a bonus.
2.) A good rugged (see a trend here...) variable magnification optic. I already posted my preferences on what kind of specifications I would like. My reasoning here is that long term a variable magnification optic (VMO) will still work great as a daylight sight even when the illumination can no longer be used. Plus with the ability to magnify your target you have the advantage of better practical accuracy, which wastes less ammo, and gives you standoff capability the hipster douchebag zombies may not have. Additionally as mentioned earlier if you expect to spend the next 20 years valiantly Mad Maxing it up fighting off hordes of flat brim trucker hat wearing hipster zombies and other undesirables, you might find that your eyes don't work so well with those iron sights, or a red dot sight. You ever notice most guys in their late 40's and early 50's often give up on iron sights? There's a reason for that. A durable high quality VMO will allow your middle aged to golden years bifocals needing ass to stay in the fight against the uncouth horde of zombies, or hipsters, or jack booted UN black helicopter thugs, or that deer you intend to feed your ungrateful grandkids with who you regale with stories of your youth playing video games and enjoying indoor plumbing.
3.) A good powerful white light mounted on the rifle. Identifying thieving hipster zombies in the dark before shooting the flat brim hats off their smug faces good, accidentally shooting your buddy in the dark not so good. Enough said. Eventually you will run out of batteries, at which point shooting at stuff in the dark is probably a bad idea, but don't worry the baddies will probably run out of batteries too, ending up in a stalemate where few epic battles will take place in the dark.
No, but the notion that you must be totally self sufficient is in my view not a realistically achievable goal. In the long term, a situation where your way of living has ended, and society at large has broken down or the infrastructure supporting modern living has failed there are so many variables to worry about that are far more likely to kill you in the long run than your choice of sights on a long gun. Inadequate medical care for injuries or disease, poor diet/starvation, to name but a few would be near the top of a realistic list. Many people also seem to assume that their neighbors, who only weeks before were friendly law abiding citizens will turn into savage raiders or zombies or some shit hell bent on taking all of your stuff and then eating your brains. I doubt this would be the case in most places, at least not immediately. Realistically if you survive the zombie horde of starving brain eating hipster douchebags, you will find like minded people to work together with to keep yourself fed, sheltered, and otherwise living. I strongly agree. Watching your waistline will go further than any weapon system on the planet. You won't get getting your insulin/plavix/metoprolol when SHTF. Further, this is why I went into the medical field. I can't out-shoot the world...but I can be very valuable to the strongest group around. Certainly not the sole reason, but it was in the back of my mind.
If we really want to stress over weapon selection for a rifle system that can be serviceable for several decades with little support, a few things in my mind are mandatory. First of all it better be reliable and made of top notch materials that will hold up to long term use, by someone who gives a shit about what they are doing; shoddily made clunker firearms need not apply. Secondly it should probably be as accurate as possible while still being reliable; ammo doesn't grow on trees and long term you don't want to be wasting a lot of it missing your target, this is where good sights also come in to play. Third it needs to be powerful enough to accomplish realistic tasks, so if you need to put meat on the table and you can only have one long gun, consider carefully how much oomph you need to kill edible critters in your area.
Sighting priority for me would be in this order of importance:
1.) Good rugged iron sights, adjustable for windage and elevation without special tools. When all else fails, iron sights like the cockroach will probably still work so long as you can see them to utilize them. By iron sights I mean sights actually made of a ferrous metal, not plastic or pot metal garbage. By adjustable for windage and elevation without special tools I mean the rear sight has knobs and shit, and the front sight can be adjusted too if needs be with nothing more complicated than an allen wrench or bullet nose. If they fold down when not in use it would be a bonus.
2.) A good rugged (see a trend here...) variable magnification optic. I already posted my preferences on what kind of specifications I would like. My reasoning here is that long term a variable magnification optic (VMO) will still work great as a daylight sight even when the illumination can no longer be used. Plus with the ability to magnify your target you have the advantage of better practical accuracy, which wastes less ammo, and gives you standoff capability the hipster douchebag zombies may not have. Additionally as mentioned earlier if you expect to spend the next 20 years valiantly Mad Maxing it up fighting off hordes of flat brim trucker hat wearing hipster zombies and other undesirables, you might find that your eyes don't work so well with those iron sights, or a red dot sight. You ever notice most guys in their late 40's and early 50's often give up on iron sights? There's a reason for that. A durable high quality VMO will allow your middle aged to golden years bifocals needing ass to stay in the fight against the uncouth horde of zombies, or hipsters, or jack booted UN black helicopter thugs, or that deer you intend to feed your ungrateful grandkids with who you regale with stories of your youth playing video games and enjoying indoor plumbing.
This is why I went with a Nightforce 1-4 NXS FC-2. That, and it's just faster and better all-around. As a datapoint, here is what Mike Pannone had to say:
Variable Magnification Optics are designed for more extended ranges and when run against a 1x electro optical sight they are only bested at 7m and in from my data (scores and timed standard drills at 5,7,10,20,50), 10m it flattens out and beyond 10 the VMO on 1x has a distinct benefit over a 1x electro-optics due to the clarity of the etched glass. Data was unchanged with and w/o illumination on. It was initially shot illuminated vs. illuminated and then reshot without illum on VMO.
3.) A good powerful white light mounted on the rifle. Identifying thieving hipster zombies in the dark before shooting the flat brim hats off their smug faces good, accidentally shooting your buddy in the dark not so good. Enough said. Eventually you will run out of batteries, at which point shooting at stuff in the dark is probably a bad idea, but don't worry the baddies will probably run out of batteries too, ending up in a stalemate where few epic battles will take place in the dark.
As a side note for people wondering...How long will my CR123 batteries REALLY last? I know the box says 10 years, but...
A few weeks ago I received a phone call from SureFire asking if I would be interested in testing some old 123A lithium primary batteries. How old? Well, the batteries in question were manufactured over 12 years ago, in February 2003. Of course I was interested!
As with the other flashlights, the older batteries had no trouble powering the Fury and matched the new ones for 35 minutes before falling behind. There were no issues with any of the batteries during testing.
Even at twelve years of age these batteries easily accomplished that and, considering most of us change batteries before they completely die, the apparent loss of capacity may be as low as 4 or 5%.
http://flashlightguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/SF-Battery-Test-P2X-Fury.jpg
http://flashlightguide.com/2015/05/surefire-123a-battery-long-term-test/
BrigandTwoFour
10-22-15, 08:15
I agree that some people are getting too wrapped up in an indefinite end of the world scenario that drags on for the rest of our lives. I think worrying about such a scenario isn't helpful. Most people would be better off worrying about a shorter term situation of a few days to a few years. Fallout 4 is a fun game, but I have no interest or plans in actually living it.
Doc Safari
10-22-15, 09:38
You are probably not likely to risk very long range shots due to ammunition waste and a stronger need to not give away your position.
Good point. This somewhat negates the need for a magnified optic if you are shooting man-sized targets. Advantage: Red Dot
Doc Safari
10-22-15, 09:49
The whole SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation argument is obsessed over far too much in my view.
We are just trying to maximize the survivability of our optic.
I have both, and If I had to keep one and expect to have no support on it, it would be neither.
Batteries die, then you nothing. No Aimpoint.
Trijicon, tritium dies. You still have a great day time optic. This would be my second choice. Fixed magnification is limiting.
I would choose my Nightforce NXS compact 1-4x w/FC2 reticle. Once the battery dies it is still a great day time optic. 1x for me is no slower than with the aimpoint. 4x does everything the Trijicon does, but better.
I have every bit of confidence the nightforce is as rugged as the Trijicon and Aimpoint.
I want to stress once you have no batteries for your aim point you have nothing. EMP, nothing. All gone. Magnified options will always maintain there daytime usability. After the end you do have better chance of finding a battery and installing it yourself than you have a chance of finding tritium and installing that yourself.
Also Trijicon charges, at current time, but ever increasing, 575$ to replace your tritium. So expect that as an upkeep cost on your Trijicon every 10-15 years, if the world doesn't end. I own two ACOGS, but because of this will never purchase another. Thats 575 CR2025 Lithium batteries for my Nightforce, I don't think I'd ever use 575 batteries in my life.
BrigandTwoFour
10-23-15, 10:57
There is, of course, the option of going with something like the TA02. I do wish Trijicon would go ahead and add battery power to some of it's other ACOG lines (particularly the TA11 and TA33). That solves the issue of tritium replacement and keeps the positive aspects of the ACOG.
But, as you said, there is a lot to be said for a quality variable like the Nightforce (I've never used one, but I assume it receives such universal praise for good reason).
Doc Safari
10-23-15, 11:19
There is, of course, the option of going with something like the TA02. I do wish Trijicon would go ahead and add battery power to some of it's other ACOG lines (particularly the TA11 and TA33). That solves the issue of tritium replacement and keeps the positive aspects of the ACOG.
I think in Trijicon's mind that's covered by the fact that you have an expectation of a 12-15 year tritium life. Most people (especially fickle gun owners) get tired of something and trade it off before it reaches the 15-year mark (I know I'm speaking in generalities). Probably the dot-guv will upgrade within 15 years, too (in a perfect world).
The issue is whether the tritium really goes the distance, or, as some have suggested, craps out after 5-7 years.
THAT is an unacceptable game changer.
What we need is a lot more empirical data into how long the element REALLY lasts under real world conditions.
Oh, and I hear a faint voice from the back saying we should do the same thing with Aimpoint battery life. Just because they literature says "8 years on so-and-so setting" doesn't mean that in the real world it isn't shorter.
If there would be a SHTF event with an EMP, wouldn't it affect electronic sights as well? I personally prefer Aimpoints because they allow target focus, but my TA44 is not much slower and it wouldn't be affected by an EMP. LPVs are nice, but rugged LPVs with rugged mounts tend to be way too heavy for a SHTF rifle, IMHO.
Maybe I'm just spoiled by having used lasers and NODs for low light shooting for practically forever, but I don't see the big deal with the tritium in the ACOGs. I've used ACOGs well over a decade old and the reticle was still just as bright as a new one when shooting in daylight, which is most important for my intended use.
The fiber optic gathers enough ambient lighting in all but no-light for the reticle to be visible. If you get that dark, you're either going to NODs or using a white light anyway.
I don't use NODs, but actually I feel that the tritium in my TA44 is too bright anyway. When I shoot at night, the reticle tends to overpower any small and dark targets, even if the fiber optic is not gathering any ambient light. The sight would be much better if the ring was 40-65 moa, instead of the current ~20 moa. Luckily the current reticle will become usable in few years.
Heavy duty 1-4X the NF would be fine. Alternatively, an ACOG would work. I also like my T2 and a hand full of coin batteries would keep me happy for ten years.
After 10 years if I still need to shoot a lot, I guess I'd have to switch to irons.
BrigandTwoFour
10-23-15, 13:31
If there would be a SHTF event with an EMP, wouldn't it affect electronic sights as well? I personally prefer Aimpoints because they allow target focus, but my TA44 is not much slower and it wouldn't be affected by an EMP. LPVs are nice, but rugged LPVs with rugged mounts tend to be way too heavy for a SHTF rifle, IMHO.
Generally speaking, most electronic sights would be fine. EMP, generated by high altitude nuclear weapon detonations, will have a very large footprint of effect, but relatively light effect. Movies and games have overblown it a bit. It is mostly a threat to the electrical grid, anything connected to that grid, and anything floating around nearby in space (mostly due to x-rays rather than EMP). Your self-contained electronic devices that are not connected to any power outlets will be fine. If you're that concerned, stick a spare optic in a Faraday Cage (like an old microwave oven that's not plugged in).
IMO, there are other more pressing and probable events to plan your SHTF weapon around.
Doc Safari
10-23-15, 16:26
Another factor:
Do electronics in Aimpoints age? Is this aging somewhat arrested with proper storage? In other words, would an Aimpoint in storage last for many decades while one in use degrade faster?
New thread here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?175422-Do-electronic-sights-age&p=2199844#post2199844
I have both and my ACOG has a tritium RMR and I still love that dam Aimpoint! SHTF I take the Aimpoint and know my back up irons are ready to go. I have 2 backup batteries stashed on the rifle. SHTF for more than 5 years and my optic is the last thing on my mind.
Mysteryman
10-23-15, 20:22
With the price difference between an Aimpoint and an Acog you could buy a whole lot of batteries.
Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
Maybe I'm not speaking clearly or my word choice is off. An ACOG does not need any batteries to operate. The tritium is only necessary under no light conditions and only if you wish to use the sight without a white light. If you use a white light then it makes no difference as the reticle is still visible with the use of a white light. Depending on where your light is mounted and the spill of the beam you may see the lovely red/green/amber or you may end up with a simple black reticle. Either way, they work with a white light.
Stockpiling batteries does not mean you will have access to said stockpile or that your electronics won't fail. Neither of which are a concern for the guy with the ACOG. With an ACOG I don't need batteries to operate and I don't need a stockpile to stay operational. I agree that ACOG's are not cheap but you get what you pay for, piece of mind.
I voted for acog, but use an H1. It is easy to stockpile batteries for 20 years along with a 2nd H1. If things are so bad that batteries can't be found in ten years, most of us will be dead from malnutrition, lack of medical care, etc. even if we never have to use a firearm for anything but shooting squirrels. A robust illuminated 1-6 would be ideal.
Just because society and the world you live in isn't what it used to be, does not mean that there is no food or medical services. Think developing countries where food is available but modern conveniences like electricity, phones, and batteries are not so common or prohibitively expensive. Even if batteries are available they are yet another item you must hunt down and source. That's time and resources(money or barter items) better served elsewhere like on medical supplies, food, clothing etc.
ACOG is dreadfully expensive to recharge. They quoted me some price like 560. Not cost-effective. Might as well buy a newer unit.
This is where a RDS has an advantage. Swap in a lithium AA and you are set . I don't believe the world will ever run out of AA cells. If you are paranoid, get buis.
ACOG without tritium is just another overpriced optic in the 200 range quality wise. Fails in the dark. Aimpoint rules with the dot you can easily see at nighttime.
The fact you never change batteries in the ACOG is a liability.
Having said that, an electronics - free ACOG is probably a little more reliable than any AP. Also, green ACOG last a lot longer than either red or amber, and much easier to see . IMO, red is the worst color. Least visible and burns out fastest.
Just so everyone is clear here. The ACOG reticles are completely visible in daylight and low light WITHOUT the tritium. The tritium is only necessary under no light conditions. Having your tritium replaced is not absolutely necessary. Also, I do believe the tritium used in all ACOG's is in fact the green lamps. They are simply placed under/around/near the FO tube which dictates the colour. Green is the easiest colour for the eye to pickup and the colour perceived by the eye to be the brightest. Having a green tritium tube against a green FO tube makes for a very bright reticle.
Just a quick list of pros for the ACOG that the reddot does not have.
No batteries
No electronics to fail
magnification(depending on model) aids in longer range shooting
Spotting/observation capabilities(depending on model)
Range finding capabilities(depending on model)
Etched reticle with hold overs
MM
Just a quick list of pros for the ACOG that the reddot does not have.
No batteries
No electronics to fail
magnification(depending on model) aids in longer range shooting
Spotting/observation capabilities(depending on model)
Range finding capabilities(depending on model)
Etched reticle with hold overs
MM
These points are rather inaccurate and misleading. If these are the positives a person is looking for in an optic, they will find a 1-4 NXS to better suit their needs - significantly so.
Mysteryman
10-25-15, 17:19
These points are rather inaccurate and misleading. If these are the positives a person is looking for in an optic, they will find a 1-4 NXS to better suit their needs - significantly so.
How are they inaccurate or misleading? These attributes are not present with a reddot optic. A LPV is great, unless you don't want the extra weight and the extra cost(for some).
MM
These points are rather inaccurate and misleading. If these are the positives a person is looking for in an optic, they will find a 1-4 NXS to better suit their needs - significantly so.
Not misleading at all.
The only real advantage of the NXS is 1-4x adjustability of the optic. This can still be closely matched by the ACOG TA01 or with TA31RMR.
Also BUIS are a must for any optic in case you run a 3x or 4x optic (Aimpoint or Trijicon). I do agree that the NXS 1-4 is a good alternative to the ACOG.
My vote is ACOG. Etched reticle, fiber optic illumination that lasts forever, and magnification all make it fit the bill perfectly.
Not misleading at all.
The only real advantage of the NXS is 1-4x adjustability of the optic. This can still be closely matched by the ACOG TA01 or with TA31RMR.
Also BUIS are a must for any optic in case you run a 3x or 4x optic (Aimpoint or Trijicon). I do agree that the NXS 1-4 is a good alternative to the ACOG.
Agreed on most points. I haven't replied as I realized after posting that I had lost the "ACOG vs Aimpoint" spirit of the thread in suggesting the NXS.
I might point out, though, using an offset RMR on something like an ACOG has always rubbed me the wrong way; I'm usually left with the feeling that I should be using an optic built more specifically for mid-long range shooting if I'm going to offset an RMR.
Mysteryman
10-28-15, 19:27
Agreed on most points. I haven't replied as I realized after posting that I had lost the "ACOG vs Aimpoint" spirit of the thread in suggesting the NXS.
I might point out, though, using an offset RMR on something like an ACOG has always rubbed me the wrong way; I'm usually left with the feeling that I should be using an optic built more specifically for mid-long range shooting if I'm going to offset an RMR.
I agree, offset sights are a one trick pony with plenty of negatives. Only usable from one side, extra weight, extra cost, more points for failure, and increased profile for snagging.
MM
Start out with an aimpoint H1. Get an Aimpoint CompM4 & a bunch of AA batteries stashed away for whenever.
lifebreath
10-30-15, 10:42
I choose ACOG, but I do have both ... multiple times! For SHTF, I like the ACOG with tritium/fiber optic cross-hair reticle on QD mount with BUIS.
Single optic that is simple, robust and provides both magnification and ability to use in CQB.
An Elcan Spector would also be a good battle-proven option.
Canonshooter
09-03-16, 08:53
Get an Aimpoint CompM4 & a bunch of AA batteries stashed away for whenever.
All of my hand held lights are powered with Li-ion, several of which can be easily attached and used as WML. With a 12V charger, all (including AA NiMH) can be recharged indefinitely with this;
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/solar-1.jpg
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/solar-3.jpg
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/solar-5.jpg
ramairthree
09-03-16, 15:26
Tell me more about your batteries, lights, panels and charger please
Boba Fett v2
09-03-16, 16:01
Tell me more about your batteries, lights, panels and charger please
+1
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-I hate ACOG's. The eye relief sucks, and they aren't very useful up close. This is when "they are working". Nevermind the fantasy "tritium dead" situation.
-I love Aimpoints. Mine have always done right. That said, this is a fantasy question, and batteries can certainly die. Another, and more pressing issue, though, for me, is the PID factor. When searching for a target that I know is there, with contrasting lighting (say, a dark target in the shade at 150-200 yards), it can take me a bit WHEN I KNOW IT'S THERE!
-I have finally arrived at the Low Power Variable. I checked out most of them in the store, and owned a VCOG briefly. I finally have settled on the Nightforce 1-4 NXS. It is offered with bold reticles, and is tested to 1250g's impact (multiple angles), and 100 ft water-pressure, and handles both just fine. This is more abuse than ACOG's or Aimpoints are factory tested to. I feel confident that it is just as durable as anything else out there except a folded pair of irons maybe. Weight isn't bad at 17oz, and form factor is awesome with how short it is.
I'd like to see a 1-8x or 1-10x by NF. Could settle for 1-6x, but 1-4x is simply not enough imo. I hear NF doesn't do as well in low light vs other high end offerings?
Canonshooter
09-04-16, 06:52
Tell me more about your batteries, lights, panels and charger please
Details on the charging station at post #117 here;
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?342073-Portable-solar-charging-setup-I-just-built/page4
Cliff Notes version - this is a portable solar charging station consisting of a solar panel, a deep-cycle lead-acid battery and a charge controller. So, the solar panel charges the 28AH battery in the yellow Pelican case, then that battery powers a variety of 12V battery chargers to recharge small batteries (mostly Li-ion) used in hand held lights, WMLs, etc.
FWIW, just about any device that uses CR123A batteries can use rechargeable 16340 or 16650 Li-ion batteries. Anything that can be plugged into the 12V socket in your car (USB chargers, lights, air compressors, etc.) can be powered with this set up.
ExplorinInTheWoods
09-04-16, 13:27
I rather have an ACOG, you always have a reticle, the TA31 4x does have lousy eye relief but the TA11 3.5x has good eye relief and so does the TA33 3x. When I went through OSUT probably 20-25% of our Comp M4 aimpoints were busted. I know a lot of people like to say the aimpoint is the end all be all but red dots are more prone to go down than an ACOG. Tritium lasts around 20 years, but you'll still have the etched reticle and the fiber optics in the ACOG. You could look at some other optics like the VCOG, etched reticle same construction as the ACOG but 1-6 magnification and it runs off of AA's. I've been shooting with my VCOG and I really enjoy it.
Canonshooter
09-04-16, 15:45
I have owned several ACOGs, including the TA33. Really superb scopes (and lightweight!) but due to my eyesight and the lack of a diopter adjustment, neither were entirely clear for me. If the TA33 (the last one I owned) had been as sharp to my eyes as I need a magnified optic to be, I'd still own it.
If only top-shelf LPVs didn't weigh 1.5+ pounds with a mount I'd save my belly button lint to buy one, but I have come to appreciate lightweight carbines way too much. My current 16" rifle comes in under 7 pounds with an AP PRO attached and at least for now will make the most of that optic.
ExplorinInTheWoods
09-04-16, 16:39
I have owned several ACOGs, including the TA33. Really superb scopes (and lightweight!) but due to my eyesight and the lack of a diopter adjustment, neither were entirely clear for me. If the TA33 (the last one I owned) had been as sharp to my eyes as I need a magnified optic to be, I'd still own it.
If only top-shelf LPVs didn't weigh 1.5+ pounds with a mount I'd save my belly button lint to buy one, but I have come to appreciate lightweight carbines way too much. My current 16" rifle comes in under 7 pounds with an AP PRO attached and at least for now will make the most of that optic.
The Trijicon TR24 is lightweight, I have two and love them and they're my favorite optic it's only 14 oz and if you get an aero lightweight mount it's 17oz so that's an option, It's not a QD mount but it's light weight and won't break the bank.
ExplorinInTheWoods
09-04-16, 16:40
I have owned several ACOGs, including the TA33. Really superb scopes (and lightweight!) but due to my eyesight and the lack of a diopter adjustment, neither were entirely clear for me. If the TA33 (the last one I owned) had been as sharp to my eyes as I need a magnified optic to be, I'd still own it.
If only top-shelf LPVs didn't weigh 1.5+ pounds with a mount I'd save my belly button lint to buy one, but I have come to appreciate lightweight carbines way too much. My current 16" rifle comes in under 7 pounds with an AP PRO attached and at least for now will make the most of that optic.
The Trijicon TR24 is lightweight, I have two and love them and they're my favorite optic it's only 14 oz and if you get an aero lightweight mount it's 17oz so that's an option, It's not a QD mount but it's light weight and won't break the bank.
Dual illumination ACOG Solves that problem nicely. The T1/T2 are small and light enough it should be fairly easy to squirrel it away in your pack.
mattpittinger
09-04-16, 19:21
In a SHTF situation, if I could only have one optic it would be the ACOG, just because the versatility that it offers. It's fast enough up close, and way better in real world shooting situations.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
CanineCombatives
09-04-16, 22:13
Another ACOG vote here, I swore allegiance to them ions ago and although I have several low and mid power variables that I like a lot, they are still the benchmark for the scenarios described.
ETA: I just got the TA31G with the ACSS reticle and damn is it sweet.
TacMedic556
09-05-16, 08:13
ACOG TA01NSN or TA31ECOS - I want the irons up top and a cross hair range finding reticle. done.
Canonshooter
09-12-16, 11:51
The Trijicon TR24 is lightweight, I have two and love them and they're my favorite optic it's only 14 oz and if you get an aero lightweight mount it's 17oz so that's an option, It's not a QD mount but it's light weight and won't break the bank.
Well, I'm taking another dive into the LPV pool. My selection is full of compromise (aren't all optic selections?) but with light weight as the top requirement, I've got Leupold VX-R Patrol and an Aero Precision SPR mount on order. The two combined should come in at 14.9 ounces, just 1.9 ounces heavier than an AP PRO in the AP mount. The KAC Micro 600 rear BUIS and Troy HK folding front BUIS will stay on the rifle with a torx key wrench stashed in the grip for emergency optic mount removal (neither the scope or mount strike me as being able to take a much of a beating). Good thing I like and am reasonably proficient with iron sights...
Time will tell but I think I've got all the right boxes checked for my requirements with this selection.
As far as batteries go for a Comp M4, why would you need to stockpile more than a few replacements? If the battery life is ~8 years and the shelf life is 20, you're not going to need a 5 gallon bucket of batteries for the optic. They'll be well into the shelf life by the third replacement. But if you paired it with a AA Surefire light, I suppose that bucket of batteries might come in quite handy. You could cut down on battery needs for the light by using rechargeables and a solar charger, and keep a managable supply of 20 year Li-ion AA batteries for when the rechargeables finally shit the bed.
Sure, the ACOG is tougher, but we're not going to be dropping our rifles out of helicopters or subjecting them to high explosive blasts. The AP is plenty tough enough for anything we'd subject them to in a scenario where access to quality medical care is unavailable (in other words we're all going to be a lot more careful when a broken leg or a nasty cut will likely result in death).
I honestly believe that most people will be extremely lucky to last 15 years without modern medical care. Those that do survive an extended SHTF scenario will be smart enough to know not to get into epic nighttime firefights. But it's fun to talk about these things, isn't it?
Mysteryman
09-13-16, 22:30
As far as batteries go for a Comp M4, why would you need to stockpile more than a few replacements? If the battery life is ~8 years and the shelf life is 20, you're not going to need a 5 gallon bucket of batteries for the optic. They'll be well into the shelf life by the third replacement. But if you paired it with a AA Surefire light, I suppose that bucket of batteries might come in quite handy. You could cut down on battery needs for the light by using rechargeables and a solar charger, and keep a managable supply of 20 year Li-ion AA batteries for when the rechargeables finally shit the bed.
You believe and trust the "20 year shelf life" claims from battery manufacturers? Has anyone tested that? I'm betting not as it's a relatively new claim and the long life battery hasn't been around for 20 years yet. Even if your batteries last 20 years maybe the electronics won't. Rechargeable are a good idea but they have a life as well.
Sure, the ACOG is tougher, but we're not going to be dropping our rifles out of helicopters or subjecting them to high explosive blasts. The AP is plenty tough enough for anything we'd subject them to in a scenario where access to quality medical care is unavailable (in other words we're all going to be a lot more careful when a broken leg or a nasty cut will likely result in death).
Who says you won't be in an aircraft or other vehicle? Explosives are a real possibility. Would dropping your rifle not be a realistic possibility?
I honestly believe that most people will be extremely lucky to last 15 years without modern medical care. Those that do survive an extended SHTF scenario will be smart enough to know not to get into epic nighttime firefights. But it's fun to talk about these things, isn't it?
I highly doubt any catastrophic event be it national or global would last more than a decade before society recovers much of what it had pre catastrophe. Late night engagements or any engagement for that matter isn't always something you get to dictate the terms of.
Me in the green.
MM
Coal Dragger
09-14-16, 05:18
Neither would be my first choice, but between them for long term I'd take the ACOG.
I'd rather have a good low power variable with a useful reticle that picks up well in daylight without illumination. I like BDC's so I'd take one with a BDC as well for use when at top magnification. I just picked up a Nightforce NXS 1-4×24 with the FC-3G reticle and my only real complaints are that I wish the illumination was daylight bright as an option, and that it had a bit more magnification. Aside from those minor gripes it's a great little scope, probably as durable as an ACOG but more flexible.
Mr. Goodtimes
09-14-16, 09:33
I see these kinds of threads pop up all the time, and the answer is always the same, whether it's guns, ammo, gear, vehicle, etc. The answer is always "It depends."
For me, living in an older historic part of a major city (suburbs just outside city center) it would be an Aimpoint. Really living anywhere in Florida it would be an Aimpoint. It's the fastest thing inside fifty yards and I can still get first round upper torso hits out to 300m.
If I lived out west where there are fewer buildings, more open spaces and the common engagement distance is easily 100+ m I would pick an Acog.
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ACOG simply because anything electronic can fail. As many have said above, once the reflex sight fails it is an empty tube on top of your rifle.
mikemi1951
09-22-16, 03:28
I got a ton of batteries for my Aimpoint PRO and my T2 for just the reasons stated. Will they be enough? That's the unknown just like my stores of food and water and ammo.
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Coal Dragger
09-22-16, 03:37
The problem with storing batteries is that they have a shelf life too. So they will lose charge over time just sitting in the package.
I would go with a mini acog like a ta44 or a LPV. I like the ta44 because it's red dotish but without batteries and it's better to my eyes(astigmatism).
BrigandTwoFour
09-22-16, 23:11
More and more I'm leaning towards (and plan on purchasing) one of the new TA-110 ACOGS.
Basically a battery powered TA-11. Specs say it runs on AAs for 12000 hours, and the illumination can be overwhelmingly bright or turned off easily.
Canonshooter
09-24-16, 15:27
Well, I'm taking another dive into the LPV pool.
I did, and so far, so good!
I went with the VX-R Patrol in a GG&G FLT non-QD mount, the two together weigh 17. 4 ounces. Bolted on to my 16" BCM ELW KMR upper, the rifle weighs 7 pounds-6 ounces;
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/recce16-6.jpg
Good results were achieved with my range visit today. My goal was to confirm zero at 50 yards with my irons, then zero the scope at 100 yard. My two go-to loads are Speer Lawman 75 Gold Dot .223 and Black Hills 77 SMK 5.56, so those were used for zeroing. I'm very comfortable with irons from my high-power days and the combo I'm using on this lightweight carbne work well for me. A couple of 3-shot groups to confirm BUIS zero;
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/recce16target-4.jpg
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/recce16target-5.jpg
And my two best groups at 100 with the new optics package (all groups were under 2 MOA);
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/recce16target-6.jpg
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/recce16target-7.jpg
Truth be told, I could never shoot this tight of a group at 100 yards with an unmagnified RDS.
Finally, in lieu of a QD mount I have a quick-access wrench stashed in the pistol grip in case of emergency scope removal;
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/scopewrench-1.jpg
Safe to say I'm pleased with this rifle. At 7.4 pounds it doesn't break my back, I have the advantage of magnified optics with a daylight-visible red dot (not used today), it shoots two excellent loads under 2 MOA (often much better), and the irons work well for me.
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