View Full Version : This AR Has Me Intrigued- Christensen Arms VTAC-15
It's expensive. I think the LGS has one priced around $2800.
http://www.christensenarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/VTAC-15-MAIN1-855x267.png
https://youtu.be/S-G2YvTtU4Y
But it has two features I'm particularly interested in-
1) A VTAC carbon fiber handguard; and
2) A carbon fiber wrapped barrel
Why? Heat. The carbon fiber used to wrap the barrel conducts heat well. That means it draws off the heat quickly from the steel core of the barrel and rapidly conducts it to the air, cooling the barrel quickly. The handguards are made to protect the shooter's hand from the heat.
The keymod handguard is made entirely of carbon fiber, including the integral top rail. I don't if it saves any weight over similar aluminum handguards, but the whole rifle with 16 inch barrel weighs in at 5.5 lbs. The one I fondled at the gunshop felt light, lively and balanced. Of course, that was without sights, mag, ammo, sling or light, all of which will add a couple three pounds to the package.
Other features include a drop in VTAC trigger, 45 degree selector, match grade barrel and Magpul grip and SL stock.
I want to be a fan. There's much I like about this rifle, especially the practical application of tech in the form of using carbon fiber to improve cooling and stiffness to the barrel without adding weight. I love practical tech. Quite frankly, I think this rifle has a high cool quotient and good lookin, neither of which translates into reliable or durable. Since I've never shot this rifle, that's all I've got to go on.
Still, there are few rifles that I'd hand over nearly $3k to own. This one could potentially be one.
If anyone has any trigger time on this rifle, please PLEASE post your impressions
Defaultmp3
10-18-15, 01:05
Some negative reviews on Lightfighter (http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/rfi-christiansen-arms-ca-15), albeit relating to their op rod piston systems, and not the gas guns.
A gun store in Dallas has a few of them for around $4500 with integrated suppressors. They are comparable to Wilson Combat from what I have been told by the gun store employees.
The local Sportsmans Warehouse has been selling Christensen Arms rifle for a few years now. Mostly their bolt guns and recently their ARs. Their bolt guns appear to be very high quality and have the carbon fiber barrel as well. I've never really looked to hard at the ARs as 3000 dollar ARs are not my style. For me any AR more expensive than a SR15 better be in the same category as the OBR and the SR25.
Sounds like you have yourself already talked into buying it, so buy it.
Most of the responses you will get here will be "it is too expensive".
Eurodriver
10-18-15, 08:02
It is too expensive.
That is expensive for 1 1/2 pounds less weight.
I am glad they are building the rifle and I hope it sells well, it would put more pressure on AR builders to reduce the weight more.
Straight Shooter
10-18-15, 08:47
Buy it. They'll be $10,000 this time next year.
Just kidding.
Eurodriver
10-18-15, 08:52
Buy it. They'll be $10,000 this time next year.
Just kidding.
I don't think you're that far off...
Sounds like you have yourself already talked into buying it...
Ha! I'm still intrigued, yes but I haven't talked myself into buying it
..."it is too expensive"
...and this is why I hesitate. I need to know more about this rifle before spending that kind of money.
After some thought, I realize the only two features of this rifle I really want are the handguard and the barrel
I have a feeling that whatever you buy today, will be a "pre-ban" this time next year. If so, a colt will be worth $4000
I have a feeling that whatever you buy today, will be a "pre-ban" this time next year. If so, a colt will be worth $4000
Geezus, I really, really hope not.
Back on topic.
Just buy this:http://www.christensenarms.com/products/carbon-barrel/ca-15-barrels/ and find the handguard
Who makes the handguard? I have taken a liking to carbon fiber handguards (I have two of the Lancer ones) and would like to find out who the manufacturer is. I Googled "VTAC carbon fiber handguard" but I don't think it's their product.
Singlestack Wonder
10-18-15, 13:44
A gun store in Dallas has a few of them for around $4500 with integrated suppressors. They are comparable to Wilson Combat from what I have been told by the gun store employees.
Wilson has yet to prove they can manufacture a military grade rifle. A comparison to wilson is meaningless.
Who makes the handguard? I have taken a liking to carbon fiber handguards (I have two of the Lancer ones) and would like to find out who the manufacturer is. I Googled "VTAC carbon fiber handguard" but I don't think it's their product.
It looks similar to the one Troy was touting as "COMING SOON!" a few months back
Wilson has yet to prove they can manufacture a military grade rifle. A comparison to wilson is meaningless.
Since when are Wilson rifles bad? I know they're rarely discussed here but I've only ever heard positive things.
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MountainRaven
10-18-15, 14:54
A couple LGS have Christensen's. Bolt guns, ARs, 1911s. Not impressed by anything except for the 700s. But now they're going away from the 700 to their own 700-pattern action - which is exceptionally rough, takes a cheesy single-stack carbon fiber magazine.
Wilson has yet to prove they can manufacture a military grade rifle. A comparison to wilson is meaningless.
Unless that's the point.
OP: I would buy a Proof Research barrel and find the handguard you like and go from there.
Well, whaddya know?-
http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.Meabb5c07e7eae15b4263ed8ab78dc801o0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/407471/troy-industries-15-m-lok-battle-rail-free-float-handguard-ar-15-carbon-fiber
Well, whaddya know?-
http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.Meabb5c07e7eae15b4263ed8ab78dc801o0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/407471/troy-industries-15-m-lok-battle-rail-free-float-handguard-ar-15-carbon-fiber
Wow. Was actually expecting it to be more expensive than that. (Not that it's in any way inexpensive)
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dramabeats
10-18-15, 16:51
You can get a proof research carbon fiber wrapped barrel for $800-900.
I'm willing to bet they're the OEM for that company.
Well, whaddya know?-
http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.Meabb5c07e7eae15b4263ed8ab78dc801o0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/407471/troy-industries-15-m-lok-battle-rail-free-float-handguard-ar-15-carbon-fiber
Oh shit, about a hundred bucks more than the Lancers I have.
Also, not 100% sure it's the one in the OP.....that one has Keymod slots, not M-Lok. EDIT: watched the video and some are M-lok while some will be Keymod.
I'm curious as to the strength of the attachment points on a carbon fiber handguard. My gut tells me that it'd require a fair amount of reinforcing to equal that (if even possible) of any metal handguard.
wilson1911
10-18-15, 17:49
There is a very wealthy guy up here that has a bolt action rifle made out of Ti and a carbon fiber barrel to hunt with. And he still wants a lighter rifle lol. The barrel will not hold zero on a string of 10 shots. While it may be great for 1 or 2 rounds. Under heavy fire it would be stringing shots all over the place I would think. ymmv
Heavy Metal
10-18-15, 17:54
I have a feeling that whatever you buy today, will be a "pre-ban" this time next year. If so, a colt will be worth $4000
There will be no ban in the next year nor the following year. Even in the worst case, Hillary wins, it will be a squeaker and the House will not change.
In fact, if she wins, there will be no ban period. Republican strength in Congress will only increase as time goes on as the revulsion to her administration grows. This fear mongering is absurd. If the President could make a ban, Obama would have done it. There is no Magical Power a President Shrillary would have that Obama does not currently possess.
Well, whaddya know?-
http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.Meabb5c07e7eae15b4263ed8ab78dc801o0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/407471/troy-industries-15-m-lok-battle-rail-free-float-handguard-ar-15-carbon-fiber
Oh shit, about a hundred bucks more than the Lancers I have.
Also, not 100% sure it's the one in the OP.....that one has Keymod slots, not M-Lok. EDIT: watched the video and some are M-lok while some will be Keymod.
I wonder how much these rails weigh. There's pretty much no information on the Alpha Revolution rails' (what these are derived from) weights out there.
Without trying to sound like a smartass, what niche in the market does this fill?
I don't really care if it fills a niche or not. I want a carbon fiber handguard and I like the looks of this one. If the carbon wrapped barrel is lighter, stiffer and handles heat better, I want one. That's all. If it suits my purposes, that's enough for me
There will be no ban in the next year nor the following year. Even in the worst case, Hillary wins, it will be a squeaker and the House will not change.
In fact, if she wins, there will be no ban period. Republican strength in Congress will only increase as time goes on as the revulsion to her administration grows. This fear mongering is absurd. If the President could make a ban, Obama would have done it. There is no Magical Power a President Shrillary would have that Obama does not currently possess.
keep telling yourself that! I bet they use a ban of some type as leverage. Maybe not assault rifles yet, but most likely bans on imports from east Europe or any friends of Russia, private sales, online ammo sales and 80% lowers. That's not much and wouldn't really cause any panic, but those are things the BATFE is addressing to congress right now especially the 80% lowers and online ammo sales. And yes, the president could ban those without senate approval!
wilson1911
10-18-15, 21:02
"ninja operator special"
It fills the market for people who have more money than sense. I think a good test would be to dump 100 rounds thru it then see how well it will hold it's zero. I used to have a volquartsen 10/22 with a carbon fiber barrel, while it was nice, it was hard to hold still because it was so light. 7-8 lbs makes a nice "balanced" weapon. Any of the top instructors can take any gun and out shoot many of us blindfolded. Their experience is way beyond what I will ever have. At this point, after buying the MRO on so many of the "famous instructors" words, I am calling bullshit no matter who's name is on it. Give it to Larry and let him do a test on it lol !!!
This weapon fills a small market for guys wanting something unique and beautiful. Take it to the range and put 20 rounds thru it, then put it back in its case. I have looked at his 1911's also, no way would I buy one. It does not compare to the Wilson cqb I own. Buy one and do some testing on it for the rest of us. I will expect "a drive it like you stole it" BCM test tho.
The value is in the eye of the holder. I am sitting here writing this on a custom 4k water cooled pc that I built. While I think its kickass and a monster, others just think I am crazy.
does Sig make an AR with carbon fiber hand guard and stock? I believe so. Why not buy that for less than 1/2 price? I have noticed over the years that a lot of the ultra high end guns, knife, apparel manufactures only survive during good economic times and disappear. Case in point: ZM weapons, Detonics, Brenten, RMA and the list goes on!
You can get a proof research carbon fiber wrapped barrel for $800-900.
I'm willing to bet they're the OEM for that company.
Yeah, I'd rather get a proof research barrel directly, put on a CF handguard like the one linked or a Lancer, and get other quality components for probably half the price of that rifle.
Heavy Metal
10-18-15, 21:38
keep telling yourself that! I bet they use a ban of some type as leverage. Maybe not assault rifles yet, but most likely bans on imports from east Europe or any friends of Russia, private sales, online ammo sales and 80% lowers. That's not much and wouldn't really cause any panic, but those are things the BATFE is addressing to congress right now especially the 80% lowers and online ammo sales. And yes, the president could ban those without senate approval!
And how could they do that and don't say EO because an EO doesn't work that way. I think you are simply fear mongering and repeating what you have been told, the low-hanging fruit has been picked in that regard and Congress ain't going to pass shit.
And the President has NO AUTHORITY over online ammo sales. If he could have banned them, he already would have. If you want to talk this crap, you should start an independent thread instead of bringing into a technical discussion, it's just ****ing silly here.
If anyone has any trigger time on this rifle, please PLEASE post your impressionsI was introduced to 2 of these rifles about a 10 weeks after that video. Both of them had been "shooters" from the time of the video up until I encountered them. I had seen the video when it first came out and I knew that I would be seeing one first hand and was intrigued.
Of the two rifles one was a stripped down version just a sling, Deltapoint on a LW riser, stubby vfg, no buis, no light. The other rifle was fully loaded as seen in the video at 1:30 with the addition of the Leupold D-EVO and sling, so it was not a LW rifle.
The full kit rifle was having intermittent issues of a failure to extract / eject. Definite gas issue, but the rifle was not out of the case much. The second more stripped down rifle ran very well throughout 3 days of intensive shooting. To be fair the Christensen rifle did not get as many rounds through it but it did put out quite a bit of lead and did it well. I did get some real brief time with it and ran next to it head to head on many occasions throughout the 3 days.
My rifle that I ran was one I built specifically to wring out a few specific parts, so my rifle while a great rifle was not my favorite set up with a 14.5" chrome lined, carbine length gas and a USGI trigger. However this particular rifle that I put together and using produces and holds an outstanding group when zeroing and even the owner of the Christensen rifle seemed more than surprised by the group sizes especially at the speeds that I would shoot my groups. I had confirmed my zero prior, so I was already confident especially after shooting my first zero group that day and ran the remaining groups very quickly. The last one at a very very quick pace at which he related, those had all better still be touching. I said with a smile in a joking manner, "Well of course they are".
Now I am all for trying out new stuff and as mentioned I had new parts that I was testing and doing product evaluation on, so I am generally open minded with new stuff. When running the two rifles side by side I found no added performance in my results. Indeed the rifle was lighter than mine, the trigger was better, but my performance results were similar. I understand that first impressions are important, but to be completely fair I would need quite a bit more time with the Christensen rifle to come to a much more comprehensive conclusion. The owner did say that the one rifle with the issues needed to go back for a good evaluation. This is not what I would consider to be out of the norm for any new weapon manufacturer. There will be some things needed to be addressed and these rifles were definite test mules.
All in all great rifle and I appreciate the forward thinking. I do think they could be great offerings, but I just don't know if the added benefits will turn out to be tangible for the majority of rifle owners, especially given the price tag. I would not argue that the rifle is geared towards a certain individual. Hell who am I to talk, I have 1911's that cost as much or more than this one rifle. I guess it just depends on what type of snob you are. I personally am not an AR snob, meaning that I won't buy a complete rifle that costs a lot of money. I prefer to put together all of my own rifles. I guess I just didn't get deep enough into 1911 smithing to the point that I would just do my own 1911's. :)
We built several carbines that were just over 5.5 lbs using standard off the shelf components. They also were about 60% cheaper.
I just don't understand the rifle, considering the author behind it, so to speak. It seems so non-sequitur.
Straight Shooter
10-18-15, 23:51
There will be no ban in the next year nor the following year. Even in the worst case, Hillary wins, it will be a squeaker and the House will not change.
In fact, if she wins, there will be no ban period. Republican strength in Congress will only increase as time goes on as the revulsion to her administration grows. This fear mongering is absurd. If the President could make a ban, Obama would have done it. There is no Magical Power a President Shrillary would have that Obama does not currently possess.
I can see where you could be correct here. Thing is...a "perceived" ban does the same thing as a real threatened ban. And right now the current thinking is theres a chance for it.
And how could they do that and don't say EO because an EO doesn't work that way. I think you are simply fear mongering and repeating what you have been told, the low-hanging fruit has been picked in that regard and Congress ain't going to pass shit.
And the President has NO AUTHORITY over online ammo sales. If he could have banned them, he already would have. If you want to talk this crap, you should start an independent thread instead of bringing into a technical discussion, it's just ****ing silly here.
ok, well your the one who replied with a quote and started the conversation, I was just saying a colt could be worth $4000- and fear mongering? I barely abide by the rules as it is~
Surf, thanks for checking in and sharing your experiences. I've been intrigued by carbon wrapped barrels for years and have been following Christensen's work off and on since he introduced his first prototype. After some thought, I've realized it' not the rifle I want, it's the technology. I want to build an upper around that barrel and see how it sizes up. I'd be ordering up the parts if I didn't have to get the tranny in the motorhome fixed.
IG, you make a good point that you don't have to spend crazy money or advanced technology to get a carbine under six pounds. In fact, I note that their steel fluted barrel is even lighter than the carbon wrapped
A word about the next ban- It's an important issue but discussing it here is derailing the thread. Thanks
After some thought, I've realized it' not the rifle I want, it's the technology. I want to build an upper around that barrel and see how it sizes up.
If you're interested in the technology (of lightweight), grab a set of those Robar/Kaiser Shooting Products polymer receiver sets to go with it! They're better finished and more refined than any other polymer lower I've used (and AFAIK they're the only polymer upper you can get). You can make a VERY lightweight carbine with them (mine is 4lbs, 10oz w/ RDS and BUIS).
If you're interested in the technology (of lightweight), grab a set of those Robar/Kaiser Shooting Products polymer receiver sets to go with it! They're better finished and more refined than any other polymer lower I've used (and AFAIK they're the only polymer upper you can get). You can make a VERY lightweight carbine with them (mine is 4lbs, 10oz w/ RDS and BUIS).
Bushmaster makes polymer uppers for their Carbon15 or whatever they call it.
I'd be iffy about polymer lowers, but a polymer upper is just asking for trouble with any sort of hard use.
I've already put a polymer lower through it's paces. They are too fragile.
I'm interested in more than just the lightweight aspect. I'm also interested in the thermal and structural qualities
Over the Summer I attended the Vtac Street Fighter class.
Kyle had this rifle with him, and used it through out the class. His was Mlok, he was vocal about having ripped key-mod accessories off before. Honestly I don't think Kmod was designed to use carbon fiber. Mlok being designed with polymers in mind should be fine with carbon.
I held the rifle, but did not shoot it. It did balance nicely.
I did some weak ejection from the rifle at one point. It never jammed though, the cause of weak ejection was not identified.
I currently have the Troy aluminum 13" M-lok rail. With a Ti barrel nut it is a hair under 12oz. I feel the Carbon one should be 4-5 oz less based on the weight of the Alpha revolution. As soon as midway lists a 13" carbon Mlok rail I will swap out for it. 15" is not what I need. I will update a the troy Mlok thread when I get it.
556BlackRifle
10-19-15, 12:22
I really like CF and I'm sure that I'll pick up a CF barrel and handguard for a future build.
If you really want a CF wrapped barrel I would lean towards Proof over Christensen.
If you really want a CF wrapped barrel I would lean towards Proof over Christensen.
Absolutely. Proof barrels are much better, and that's coming from an owner of a Christensen rifle.
You enter the land of diminishing returns at close to 3k for a slightly lighter AR type rifle. I had to think long and hard about my SR15 purchase, but felt it was a good value for the features, and even then I bought the upper and lower separately to save a little money. $3800 is too high to justify for me because I don't think you really get $900 more gun than a KAC. (I'm using the SR15 as an example since they're both high-end ARs with gourmet pricing.)
I like the look of this better, never owned one, a lot cheaper
35516
they make a great gun, lighter is better in there eyes, and i think they pretty much perfected it. a little over priced though.just my 2cents
Absolutely. Proof barrels are much better, and that's coming from an owner of a Christensen rifle.
How so? Everyone is parroting this and an explanation would be nice. I know proof is the standard but some explanation about the Christiansen would be nice.
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There's some serious flaws with Christensen barrels. Most super match barrels allow for a .003 variance in straightness, Christensen allows a .050 variance. Also the carbon and epoxy that CA uses are a heat insulator, while the carbon and epoxy that Proof uses is a heat conductor. To add on top of that Christensen's CS is horrible.
How so? Everyone is parroting this and an explanation would be nice. I know proof is the standard but some explanation about the Christiansen would be nice.
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Why is it so heavy??
Sorry I had to... Looks like a nice rifle though. ETA: Are the upper and lower a polymer? Full mass carrier?
Ryan
the carbon and epoxy that CA uses are a heat insulator
Source? The video states they use a heat conducting carbon fiber
Source? The video states they use a heat conducting carbon fiber
Christensen Arms barrels have a reputation for insulating the heat and having thermal related issues. Carbon fiber by itself is a conductor, however the particular type of carbon fiber that CA has uses a larger percentage of resin which acts as an insulator vs Proof's setup.
I didn't see OP saying what exactly he wanted to do with this rifle.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big cycling enthusiast and CF is awesome. But many of the things we see CF being used for isn't really similar to guns and fighting. For something like 3 gun or precision work, maybe yes. But this thing is crazy expensive and I hate to break it to you, but CF isn't as durable as steel. Or aluminum. Its incredibly stiff and transfers the power from your foot to the bike in a whole different way, and I'm sure pulling the trigger on this will be similar. For my purposes, I'd buy more ammo and a (insert common gun brand) and practice like crazy before I touched something like this. In a few years CF tech (in guns) may become more commonplace and you'll save yourself a couple dollars. There's lightweight SS barrels that are crazy accurate and lightweight parts made of Ti and CF as it is.
So if you're tired of old, standard AR's, this might be the thing for you. Otherwise I'd buy ammo.
It's a rifle, whaddya think I'd do with it?
Read the whole thread. You'll see I'm more interested in the CF handguard & barrel than anything else. I've got two ARs with CF free float tubes and two with Magpul handguards.
I ain't doin' no aluminum handguards
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