So Are All Machine Guns Effectively Banned Again...?

[SteyrAUG]

In 1934, lacking the ability to outlaw certain types of firearms, they were "regulated" to be beyond the means of the average individual. The $200 NFA tax was the equivalent of about $3,500 today.

However, by 1980 that $200 tax was less prohibitive (equivalent to about $575 today) and that meant in the early 1980s you could turn a $350 HK rifle into a full auto for $600 and ARs could become M-16s for around $500. M-10s were actually cheaper than the NFA tax. This certainly wasn't cheap, but it was no longer cost prohibitive for the average person. This was one of the motivations to close the registry and that happened in 1986.

Even with the registry closed, with a robust economy in the late 90s and early 2000's, machine guns actually became quite reasonable in terms availability for the average individual.

Here is a price list from 2003, from a dealer who was considered at the "high end" of the market at the time.

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2z9l353.jpg

Those days are gone, and won't be coming back. While the NFA tax is now "negligible" the cost of registered machine guns has pretty much gone past the tipping point at far as being affordable by the average individual. This combined with a tanked economy means only the very affluent are still able to buy. Once the economy recovers, registered machine guns will be so far into the rare collectibles market we might as well be discussing first edition Action comics featuring Superman.

That HK91 conversion for $6,000 should cost about $8,000 adjusted for inflation, in reality HK conversion guns are pushing $20,000. An Uzi conversion for twice the price at $7,000 would be a bargain today. M-16s are pretty much set at $20,000 or more.

Even the always affordable M-10s are now going for 6,000 (mostly due to upgrade options like LAGE uppers) and no longer qualify as an "entry level" anything even though they are still the cheapest option.

Sure if you were willing to sell your car, assuming you drove a nice one, you could be a nice machine gun. But not everyone is in that position.

[El Pistolero]

Take me back to 1985 with a thousand stripped lowers and a Harbor Freight drill press....

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

And how many people have been killed with them....

This is a bigger problem that I call differential inflation. Basic materials are actually in a flat to declining price mode, while higher end goods are getting more expensive. I peg it to the fact that the money class actually has a lot of cash flowing around (low interest rates) and is able to take even meager returns and turn them into large profits due to low cost of capital. Their big money friends are doing the same thing, so there is a lot of money chasing luxury goods. I'm talking the $10million net worth and larger people. All this cash chasing luxury items and assets (boats, NYC property, Mountain property) causes those prices to rise, while the people that are closer to basic goods aren't seeing as much inflation. You are also not seeing a lot of wage income growth. The issue is when you start to be on the slippery slope where you have wage earned cash having to fight against investment made cash.

Guns just get caught up in this. They really aren't that practical, they are limited in number and you get silly money raising silly prices.

[26 Inf]

And how many people have been killed with them....

This is a bigger problem that I call differential inflation. Basic materials are actually in a flat to declining price mode, while higher end goods are getting more expensive. I peg it to the fact that the money class actually has a lot of cash flowing around (low interest rates) and is able to take even meager returns and turn them into large profits due to low cost of capital. Their big money friends are doing the same thing, so there is a lot of money chasing luxury goods. I'm talking the $10million net worth and larger people. All this cash chasing luxury items and assets (boats, NYC property, Mountain property) causes those prices to rise, while the people that are closer to basic goods aren't seeing as much inflation. You are also not seeing a lot of wage income growth. The issue is when you start to be on the slippery slope where you have wage earned cash having to fight against investment made cash.

Guns just get caught up in this. They really aren't that practical, they are limited in number and you get silly money raising silly prices.

Interesting observation. I'd be interested in knowing if you see this as an issue and what your solution would be:

You are also not seeing a lot of wage income growth. The issue is when you start to be on the slippery slope where you have wage earned cash having to fight against investment made cash.

If you think it would derail the thread PM me.

[26 Inf]

SteyrAUG: Back on point -when I was down in Georgia attending Bill Rogers' course there were a couple of guys who had full auto 'trust AR/M4's' that looked to be new manufacture. If so how could they possess them? They were civilians and not LE.

I guess it could be they were just pristine older receivers with new uppers and extensions.

[SomeOtherGuy]

NFA made machineguns artificially expensive, and it was intended to. They were artificially expensive in 1935, 1967, 1970, 2003, and today. It only varies by degrees. A $3000 firearm is out of most people's reach, or at least willingness to spend, so it's not different in kind from a $20k firearm, only different in degree.


SteyrAUG: Back on point -when I was down in Georgia attending Bill Rogers' course there were a couple of guys who had full auto 'trust AR/M4's' that looked to be new manufacture. If so how could they possess them? They were civilians and not LE.
I guess it could be they were just pristine older receivers with new uppers and extensions.

They could be older receivers with all new everything - very likely in fact.

The other alternative is that their owners could be FFL/SOT holders who managed to get a demonstration letter from a friendly LE agency, in which case the person can buy a brand new machinegun to demo, and possess it as long as they have their license. I'm not involved in this scene but am under the impression it's used by some small number of people who don't have a thriving business in LE gun sales, but just enough to keep an FFL.

[SteyrAUG]

And how many people have been killed with them....


Now that they are becoming investments more than any other consideration, a lot of them won't get fired anymore.

[Firefly]

Land of the free....

[JoshNC]

At some point I wonder if the extremely high cost could be used as grounds to sue the federal government based on equal protection under the law. The government has artificially made these out of reach of the common man.

Oh and I shot my Colt M16, Vector fullsize UZI, mp5k-pdw, and FNC on Saturday. No value will prevent me from shooting these.

[scooter22]

SteyrAUG: Back on point -when I was down in Georgia attending Bill Rogers' course there were a couple of guys who had full auto 'trust AR/M4's' that looked to be new manufacture. If so how could they possess them? They were civilians and not LE.

I guess it could be they were just pristine older receivers with new uppers and extensions.

Probably all new everything with RDIAS.

[SteyrAUG]

At some point I wonder if the extremely high cost could be used as grounds to sue the federal government based on equal protection under the law. The government has artificially made these out of reach of the common man.

Oh and I shot my Colt M16, Vector fullsize UZI, mp5k-pdw, and FNC on Saturday. No value will prevent me from shooting these.

I shoot mine too. But then again, I don't own an unfired M16A2.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Styer, I swear you should be made M4C's Gun Control Historian. You're like a walking breathing volume of Small Arms Reviews.



As to the topic at hand, this is how I see it going with non-NFA arms and accessories. They don't have to ban anything if everything is either regulated and or taxed to a point that We the People can't afford it. You eat an elephant one bite at at time . . .

[SteyrAUG]

Styer, I swear you should be made M4C's Gun Control Historian. You're like a walking breathing volume of Small Arms Reviews.



As to the topic at hand, this is how I see it going with non-NFA arms and accessories. They don't have to ban anything if everything is either regulated and or taxed to a point that We the People can't afford it. You eat an elephant one bite at at time . . .

A lot of that comes from years reading Small Arms Review. Dan Shea has done some impressive work documenting firearms history, especially as it relates to NFA weapons.

But I think they will have a tough time having the same results with semi auto weapons such as the 6920 given the sheer numbers that exist. There are probably more Colt semi autos in the state of Texas alone than there are "transferable" machine guns on the entire NFA registry. And sadly those numbers grow smaller every time the widow of some huge NFA stocking dealer calls ATF and says "Come get them" simply because she hated everything her deceased husband valued (and yes that really happened, hundreds of transferable's gone forever) or some egocentric jackass with a comprehensive collection decides to make it a "museum" following his death and guaranteeing that none of them will ever be transferred to anyone else (and yes that really actually happened).

Add in some wear and tear which render more machine guns unserviceable every year and pretty soon they will be like original Ty Cobb baseball cards.

[Moose-Knuckle]

But I think they will have a tough time having the same results with semi auto weapons such as the 6920 given the sheer numbers that exist. There are probably more Colt semi autos in the state of Texas alone than there are "transferable" machine guns on the entire NFA registry.

Correct, any new regulatory ass-hattery would not be on the same scale as the NFA in it's present form. I was merely alluding to the anti's tactic of the use of compounding of time to chip away at small arms in the hands of We the People. They have Option A, Option B, Option C, etc. and nothing but time on their hands as the gun culture ages and they dumb down the later generations on the issue.

[SteyrAUG]

Correct, any new regulatory ass-hattery would not be on the same scale as the NFA in it's present form. I was merely alluding to the anti's tactic of the use of compounding of time to chip away at small arms in the hands of We the People. They have Option A, Option B, Option C, etc. and nothing but time on their hands as the gun culture ages and they dumb down the later generations on the issue.

I don't think there is some "anti gun" group that began in 1934 with the goal of getting what they want by 2016 or any other long term goals. I think it is across the board, an effort by government to limit the freedoms that result in more power for government. Guns became a hot button issue due to the violence associated with the civil rights movement, political assassinations and radical armed militant groups, it was an issue that could be cultivated to secure more power even if it limited the freedom of citizens as a result.

If the hot button issue was pirate broadcasts or underground newspapers resulting in violent action, the first amendment would be under attack for the same reasons, and we did in fact get The Patriot Act in this way.

Guns are more noticeable because it's an item you can hold or be restricted from owning and that makes a greater impact than some nebulous thought idea where you "might" be investigated and not even know it. But all of these things are ultimately about a government seeking more power and by extension...wealth.

[Moose-Knuckle]

I don't think there is some "anti gun" group that began in 1934 with the goal of getting what they want by 2016 or any other long term goals. I think it is across the board, an effort by government to limit the freedoms that result in more power for government. Guns became a hot button issue due to the violence associated with the civil rights movement, political assassinations and radical armed militant groups, it was an issue that could be cultivated to secure more power even if it limited the freedom of citizens as a result.

If the hot button issue was pirate broadcasts or underground newspapers resulting in violent action, the first amendment would be under attack for the same reasons, and we did in fact get The Patriot Act in this way.

Guns are more noticeable because it's an item you can hold or be restricted from owning and that makes a greater impact than some nebulous thought idea where you "might" be investigated and not even know it. But all of these things are ultimately about a government seeking more power and by extension...wealth.

And guns are the thing the lowly serfs can use to shoot the bastards dead. Kind of hard to do that with a printing press, but control is about total control. Once the guns are gone guess what's next.

[26 Inf]

Here is what I see happening - as it gets closer to the time when ALL transfers, private party to private party or FFL to private party have to be registered, we will have giant platform/model themed swap meets. 'Today all Glock 22 owners, meeting at the old drive in theater at 10th and Wilson' you show up, check in at the gate, go in and either swap receivers or complete weapons.'

Then when they check, 'Uhh, no, I got rid of that to a guy in January, 2016, before I had to keep records of my private sales, I looked at his dl to make sure he was old enough, talked to him for about 10-15 minutes to see if he was bat shit crazy, asked if he was a felon or a wife beater, and then sold him my Glock/AR/Shotgun, etc.' 'No, I don't have any weapons, particularly not that one, I sold them all before you could come and take them.'

[SteyrAUG]

Here is what I see happening - as it gets closer to the time when ALL transfers, private party to private party or FFL to private party have to be registered, we will have giant platform/model themed swap meets. 'Today all Glock 22 owners, meeting at the old drive in theater at 10th and Wilson' you show up, check in at the gate, go in and either swap receivers or complete weapons.'

Then when they check, 'Uhh, no, I got rid of that to a guy in January, 2016, before I had to keep records of my private sales, I looked at his dl to make sure he was old enough, talked to him for about 10-15 minutes to see if he was bat shit crazy, asked if he was a felon or a wife beater, and then sold him my Glock/AR/Shotgun, etc.' 'No, I don't have any weapons, particularly not that one, I sold them all before you could come and take them.'

Nice idea but it sounds more like a plan to swap your clean firearm for one that was used in a felony. I'm sure the ATF and FBI would also be in strong attendance to trade "recorded" firearms for your non recorded firearms and to collect information so that they could later charge as many as possible with "conspiracy to avoid firearms registration."

Right before the NFA registry was closed there were lots of similar ideas like registering sears that weren't technically manufactured yet. Bunch of guys later took some hits for selling "paper machine guns."

The end game right now for the anti gun crowd is universal background checks for every transfer of any firearm. Doesn't matter that UBC's would not have prevented any of the recent shootings that are being used as an excuse for them. Adam Lanza's mother did a full background check for the rifle he stole from her in the Sandy Hook shootings. Shooters in the last couple school shootings also had firearms lawfully obtained with a background check. Right now the problem seems to be one of "privacy" and personal medical records not being available to those conducting background checks even though this was supposed to be corrected after the VA Tech shootings when it was discovered that the shooters troubling medical history was not made available during the background check.

So basically, unless that is resolved along with the associated privacy concerns, background checks are mostly a pointless exercise in futility because crazy people rarely tell you they are crazy when they fill out 4473 and their medical history record tends to remain confidential until they actually commit crimes, and by then it's sorta late.

But in the meantime, the anti gun crowd wants to create a database of ordinary citizens who are NOT criminals and NOT a threat of any kind because they believe people with a firearm are somehow inherently dangerous and that every member of this forum is on the verge going on a mass murder shooting spree simply because we have guns. This is of course the same kind of logic that suggest we are going to drive through a crowded walking mall killing as many as possible simply because we own a car.

[JoshNC]

I shoot mine too. But then again, I don't own an unfired M16A2.

If I had an unfired Colt M16A2, I would.........................




.....................immediately shoot it.

[Dist. Expert 26]

The end game right now for the anti gun crowd is universal background checks for every transfer of any firearm. Doesn't matter that UBC's would not have prevented any of the recent shootings that are being used as an excuse for them. Adam Lanza's mother did a full background check for the rifle he stole from her in the Sandy Hook shootings. Shooters in the last couple school shootings also had firearms lawfully obtained with a background check. Right now the problem seems to be one of "privacy" and personal medical records not being available to those conducting background checks even though this was supposed to be corrected after the VA Tech shootings when it was discovered that the shooters troubling medical history was not made available during the background check.

The whole "universal background check" idea can only be a reality when every single firearm in the United States is registered with the feds. I, for one, would never submit to such a policy, but I wonder how many of us would.

[SteyrAUG]

If I had an unfired Colt M16A2, I would.........................




.....................immediately shoot it.

Not sure I'd pull the trigger on a NIB M16A2, especially if I had an A1 variant or similar. But I do understand where you are coming from, I hate owning white elephants.