View Full Version : Folding Stock Adapter Kit for AR15, can fire repeatedly while stock is folded
I am soliciting feed back on AR 15 after market product created by Dead Foot Arms. The product is a Folding stock adapter kit for any AR15 platform which provides user with semi automatic fire capability while stock is either folded or deployed. I am going to list some highlights below along with some responses to feedback received thus far. We are very interested in any initial thoughts or perspective you might have, advice, questions, etc. Full transparency, I do not own the company but when I returned from Afghanistan I was in the same unit with the guy that started the business. I have no ownership, but I do want to see it succeed. This is not an advertisement or product push, I would like to hear legitimate concerns or questions/comments and start a dialogue that can enhance the product and our efforts to bring it to market. Obviously any positive feedback would be well received too.
Price: We are selling it online and taking pre-orders for $499. Dealers can purchase as well with a different structure via the "dealer link" on the website.
Competition: We believe there is demand for folding stock AR15 within the market. Some products that currently meet this demand, such as the COLT SCW, are sold as entire rifles. Another competitor has had considerable success selling a folding stock adapter kit but it only allows user to fire rifle one time while stock is folded (sells for under $300). Another company sells a kit that provides a retractable stock and allows user to fire stock repeatedly while stock is fully collapsed (also sells for $499). Both of these products create an overall length of rifle that is a couple of inches longer than our product. We believe the demand for folding stock capability within the market is far greater than the desire for a retractable stock.
Details / How it Works: Among other utilizations, the product was primarily designed to provide low profile mobility of AR rifles, close quarter combat, and ease of carry for military and law enforcement personnel. It is a short pistol tube with dual springs and a folding mechanism that can be utilized with any standard carbine stock. It works with direct impingement for any length of gas system. With a 16 inch barrel, the rifle is reduced to 26.5 inches when stock is folded, half a foot shorter than a fully collapsed standard stock. As you may know, when the collapsible stock was first introduced to the market it too was 6 inches shorter than the previously standard carbine stock. The bolt carrier group provided is a modified version that comes from one of the largest AR15 bolt carrier group manufacturers. The system attaches only to the lower receiver, allowing the use of any upper receiver of any caliber and any barrel length combination. 1 patent received and 2 patents pending.
Length of Pull: The length of pull is shortened about 1.5 inches for users who prefer a shooting position with a fully collapsed stock (33”). Typically these would be users that have shorter than average arms, or potentially individuals in cold weather gear or heavy body armor. For an average user utilizing an average shooting position there is no change in length of pull if a collapsible stock is in the middle positions. That said and based on recent feedback, the company is going to likely also sell a shorter buttstock that can provide user with the same length of pull as an M4, if desired. This would put the length of pull back to "standard", which some people would prefer. We will give them the option.
Manufacturing: First production run will begin in a few weeks for 200 parts, 15 of which have already been selected to be distributed to particular reviewers and retailers. That means 185 will be available for market (not accounting for pre-orders already received). Shipment planned for February 1st, 2016. Pre-orders began October 15th.
Reviews: We have two scheduled reviews to take place in November from separate noteworthy industry professionals which they will post online. Once that happens I will update this thread with links to the reviews.
In the meantime, below is a link to the video and also link to the website. Additional videos are being edited and will be uploaded once complete.
Video link:
https://www.facebook.com/Deadfootarms
Website:
http://www.deadfootarms.com/
Regarding any questions of whether this thread was appropriate to post, I submitted the following thread on this subject earlier today.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?175410-How-do-I-get-feed-back-on-an-AR15-product-coming-to-market-soon
Game changer!
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But seriously, tunablity, reliability? I'd like to see a parts breakdown.
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What do you have to modify to use this?
Is the BCG shortened?
The modifications of the BCG are proprietary with patents. Yes, the OAL of the BCG is shortened.
I'm concerned with the amount of stress being put onto the rear if the lower received in your design.
Have you found this to be an issue and if so, what have you done to address it?
I think this could catch on.
I have a few questions and a critique.
What different types of ammo has the system been tested with?
Has it been tested with both carbine and mid-length gas systems? (I notice they mention different barrel lengths and calibers)
The home page drawings of the design could be a little better. They're really dark and It's hard to tell how heavy duty the hinge is. Real pictures and CAD snippets would help.
A ship date of February 1st/15th, 2016 may also be a tough pill for people to swallow at least until this system is out in the wild and received some testing and reviews.
At $499 DFA may have a little bit of a tough time with the Troy Industries PDW going for $499 as well even though this system seems to be 3" shorter than the PDW based on me skimming both descriptions.
I like the fact that you can use your existing stock over being married to the stock of the PDW.
I'm concerned with the amount of stress being put onto the rear if the lower received in your design.
Have you found this to be an issue and if so, what have you done to address it?
Good question. No, we do not have an issue with the amount of stress on the rear of the lower receiver. The amount of stress is no different than the stress that is on the lower receiver with a standard bolt carrier group and cycle system. The engineers of the springs designed the system to provide matching force that is found in a standard AR15. Also, the buffer tube end cap is considerably thicker and stronger than the back of a typical buffer tube assembly.
Does that answer your question?
I think this could catch on.
I have a few questions and a critique.
What different types of ammo has the system been tested with?
Has it been tested with both carbine and mid-length gas systems? (I notice they mention different barrel lengths and calibers)
The home page drawings of the design could be a little better. They're really dark and It's hard to tell how heavy duty the hinge is. Real pictures and CAD snippets would help.
A ship date of February 1st/15th, 2016 may also be a tough pill for people to swallow at least until this system is out in the wild and received some testing and reviews.
At $499 DFA may have a little bit of a tough time with the Troy Industries PDW going for $499 as well even though this system seems to be 3" shorter than the PDW based on me skimming both descriptions.
I like the fact that you can use your existing stock over being married to the stock of the PDW.
SixEight:
Thank you for the comment on the drawings. Those concerns will be forwarded on. Expect real pictures and potentially CAD snippets (I don't know if those would be proprietary and need to confirm) to be displayed soon.
Appreciate comment on ship date. We are getting the product in hands of reviewers before it ships to consumers. We intend to link those reviews after they are shot and edited.
You are right on the difference in length between this system and Troy's PDW. I think one of the biggest differences is that you have to use a retractable stock with Troy, and you have to use folding stock with DFA.
It has been tested and verified with both carbine and mid-length gas systems as well as a pistol length gas tube. It has been tested with 5.56, 7.63X39. I think another main point to highlight is that the springs are produced at stronger depths than stock.
SixEight/Luethas/tator tot/ Colt Guy (and others): What are your thoughts on LOP and what do you foresee others being concerned with (if at all?). Would you simply use your own stock that fits with your individual LOP or would you prefer DFA to offer a stock in addition to the product that provides a LOP similar to that of an M4?
As long as the stock collapsed enough for me to go ntch I'm good. I prefer having options when it comes to stocks even though I mostly just use standard m4 stocks I like 1 or 2 others.
My biggest A #1 concern is durability and reliability. I would put something like this on my truck gun or possibly my hd gun, both of which see 2500+ rnds a year of mixed ammo.
#2 is cost. $500 buy in with proprietary unknown cost replacement parts is kinda off putting.
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I would prefer to use my own stock. And would want a standard length of pull.
Like tatertot my biggest concern is durability and reliability. The possibility of a failure would be a deal breaker.
It has to be almost unbreakable. More pictures and a few hundred in use for I could even consider it.
Viper5, read (or listen to) The Art of the Start 2.0 by Guy Kawasaki
I'm curious why a right side angled fold instead of a left side parallel fold or even a left side angled fold? The price almost makes it a non-starter for me to begin with. I understand why it costs that much, but between the price of the stock and the price of the rest of the gun with decent enough quality to be afforded a $500 stock would put you well beyond what you could spend for a folding stock AK?
The last part wasn't directed necessarily at you, I have the same question with the Troy stock. I love the idea and hopefully the execution is also spot on with it.
Viper5, read (or listen to) The Art of the Start 2.0 by Guy Kawasaki
http://ebooks.elportal.info/theartofthestart.pdf
A large amount of shooters extend their collapsible stock too far and simply fail to ever consider using a shorter LOP. With that in mind, I don't think LOP will be a tremendous in-practice issue, however the perception from the less astute potential buyer could be rather negative. If anything, the 'role' of this device in the AR should remain so minimal as possible -- refrain from raising costs by providing your own stock and allow the end user the freedom of choosing their own. Folks can be very picky about their weapon furniture.
Full disclosure: I am not a fan of folding stocks in any application so I may ultimately be bias.
Thank you all for the feedback on LOP. Our goal remains to give users flexibility and autonomy and I believe we are on track to do doing so.
Regarding Shadow93:
I'm curious why a right side angled fold instead of a left side parallel fold or even a left side angled fold? The price almost makes it a non-starter for me to begin with. I understand why it costs that much, but between the price of the stock and the price of the rest of the gun with decent enough quality to be afforded a $500 stock would put you well beyond what you could spend for a folding stock AK?
The last part wasn't directed necessarily at you, I have the same question with the Troy stock. I love the idea and hopefully the execution is also spot on with it.
I agree on price comparisons to a folding stock AK. We are targeting a niche market in the beginning that is made up of AR users.
The product is designed for right handed shooters in mind, although a left handed shooter could still receive value in the product's mobility and concealed transport. When the rifle is folded and attached to a sling that is attached to front right should of a Soldier's (or any user's) body armor or vest the stock has to fold to the right for ease of carry, otherwise the stock would continually bump up against his chest and it wouldn't be comfortable. It is diagonal so that the folding stock does not impede discharging brass while rifle is fired. All that said, the product could easily be mirrored for a left handed shooter in mind if there was demand for such a part. I believe patents are associated with either left or right folds.
Regarding durability and reliability...it goes without saying that quality of product is the first priority that has trumped concerns over the price/cost to build from the beginning. Based off your feedback, I think the owners are going to put together a video of the rifle firing 500+ rounds consecutively on full auto. When that happens I will post the link to this thread. Also, once reviewers start publishing their due diligence (in print, online, and via video) I think that should also substantiate the claims of quality/durability/reliability made by the company.
On that note: Would you all (and any others) mind commenting (in addition to comments on the above as well if you like) on what kind of videos you would like to see of the product for your own research? I.e., tutorial, stress test (include specifics), assembly, etc. A lot of footage is being scheduled to film and it would be unfortunate if there was a good idea for a video that DFA doesn't think of.
Everyone, thank you very much for the initial feedback on this.
I'd be interested to see how the stock holds up to malfunction clearing. I have a round stuck in the chamber. Pull the charging handle as the rifle's butt (stock extended) is slammed firmly against the ground.
How does the bolt handle during double feeds?
Can you still clear a casing stuck above the bolt carrier inside the charging handle's underside without disassembly?
Has this bolt assembly been tested under the stresses of a blown case?
I'd be interested to see how the stock holds up to malfunction clearing. I have a round stuck in the chamber. Pull the charging handle as the rifle's butt (stock extended) is slammed firmly against the ground.
How does the bolt handle during double feeds?
Can you still clear a casing stuck above the bolt carrier inside the charging handle's underside without disassembly?
Has this bolt assembly been tested under the stresses of a blown case?
The system has been stress tested on M4 for malfunctions. As intended in design, you can clear malfunctions the same as on a standard M4. Yes, you can still clear a casing stuck above the bolt carrier inside the charging handle's underside without disassembly. Under the stress test using self made reloads on an AR 7" pistol the weapon experienced blown cases (due to reloads). There was no damage to the weapon, just drop the mag and clear the blown cartridge as usual. As you disassemble the rifle there is the extra step of removing the end cap, which is quick and simple (IMHO).
Definitely would like to see better pictures.
Definitely would like to see better pictures.
Agreed. The renderings are poor at best, I recognize some of the parts from "grabcad" - that's not super confidence inspiring. At this price point, with working prototypes, clear images are a must imho.
For me the standard length of pull is very important. I am 6'4" with long arms and do not wear body armor, Now I realize some men may have shorter arms and a shorter length of pull would be fine for them. But for me I would like to see at least an option of a normal LOP.
$395 for an MVB ARC stock. Uses my standard BCG and is tunable with standard buffer weights. Or $270 for a LAW system that uses my stock and no proprietary parts other than the mechanism itself.
Troy isn't even considered do to the fact that someone did some goofy welding on a bolt carrier and their product images inspire 0 confidence that they employed a competent precision welder in this.
Why is this better for $500? Any answers like lifetime warranty are worthless with the rate of bankruptcy with startups and even established companies.
I want to like this product, I like folding stocks. But I, and most people like the AR platform for parts interchangeably without hassle.
My advice is to drop as many proprietary parts as possible, a full parts breakdown/viewable schematics openly available. And a price point that is competitive with existing options.
$400 that uses parts I can buy on the Internet 20 years after the company goes bankrupt, yes.
$500 with a whole lot of unknowns, hell no.
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I could go for some real photos, and even a video in action. Seeing is believing for me. Great idea for sure.
Subjectively I don't like, to be quite blunt. You would not find a customer in me. Not to say you wouldn't in others though.
Here is why:
-Its just not even that short. I have a LWRCi UCIW stock, its not the shortest but certainly makes a difference. I does not require any modifications to the upper, period. Also any Mil spec stock can go on a UCIW extension tube, with some reduction in length of pull range though. I'd like to see this laid out against the competition for length differences.
-Its awkward. Looks to have many places to catch on gear. Its nice it cycles folded, but how exactly to get at the trigger, it looks covered in the rendering? The LAW stock might not cycle folded, but it folds shorter and cleaner and if you can't reach the trigger whats the difference?
-To long when unfolded. Lack of stock choice.
You may find others as a buyer, so don't be discouraged. I know the slide fire stock guy made millions, and I don't own one. You asked for feed back, thats what I think. However my opinion is limited by the lack of pictures on the website. Its hard to tell anything from the vid and low res rendering.
I wish you luck.
All,
First off, please know how grateful we are for all of you offering your feedback. This kind of dialogue is exactly what we were looking for and it is very much appreciated.
I am going to comment on a few of the recent issues brought up in comments.
-Regarding pictures and video: It is being worked on. Thank you for your patience. Product won’t ship to consumers until Feb. 1 and we are in the process of filming and editing a series of videos, some of which I mentioned previously. When the website is updated with more concrete pictures and other video I will let you know.
-Regarding LOP: The LOP is increased if user uses a standard stock and if the user prefers a shooting position with the stock fully collapsed. Competitor products sold in the market also increase the LOP in the same way. There are stocks on the market a user could use with the DFA system that would bring the pull back to standard (again, only if preferred LOP is a fully collapsed stock). DFA is also considering adding their own stock that would reduce the LOP when fully collapsed. Again, I think a value add for the DFA system is the ability for user to use whatever stock he prefers and not be “married” to a stock created by one company. I do not believe that anyone with either a standard or longer than average LOP will be affected.
-Regarding Durability/Quality: This should be the biggest concern of any user, or company. When full reviews from outside third parties respected in the community are completed I will post accordingly. I will also post video of our own stress tests once edited. The product will perform exceptionally under third party due diligence tests.
Notes on Competition / Alternative products offered / Concerns, see below:
“$395 for an MVB ARC stock. Uses my standard BCG and is tunable with standard buffer weights.”
The MVB ARC stock is retractable and longer. Again, I believe there is a far greater demand for a folding stock AR15 kit that can be used with any AR platform than there is for retractable stocks.
“Or $270 for a LAW system that uses my stock and no proprietary parts other than the mechanism itself.”
The LAW system is great, but the DFA system is shorter and most importantly, it allows user to fire while rifle is folded repeatedly. The market will decide if being able to shoot while rifle is folded (in addition to concealment and portability) is worth the price increase. I believe the demand has been there for such a product from the beginning.
For instance: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/572327_Law_Tactical_Folding_Stock.html
“It’s just not even that short”
It reduces OAL to 26.5” when stock is folded on a standard 16” barrel. This is 6 inches shorter than standard. Again, when the collapsible stock was first introduced to market it too was 6 inches shorter than standard.
“I have a LWRCi UCIW stock”
That is an awesome stock. Fully collapsed, that stock reduces OAL of rifle to around 30.5” The DFA system reduces OAL 4 inches shorter than that stock though (to 26.5" on standard 16" barrel)
“Its awkward, too long when unfolded, lack of stock choice, “Law stock might not cycle folded, but it folds shorter and cleaner and if you can’t reach the trigger what’s the difference?”
There is no issue for user to fire weapon while stock is folded or deployed. Obviously more videos need to be done to illustrate this, but user has no issue “reaching the trigger” when stock is folded. The stock does not get in the way of the firing hand. User can use any stock compatible with standard AR15. Whether the OAL is too long when unfolded would depend on the stock a user “selects” to use. It is a matter of his or her partiality, completely modifiable to his or her own preference.
Again, thank you for the dialogue. Would love to see more, I will keep you all posted as more videos are shot and reviews are completed.
Hey All,
As promised, below are two links to some videos regarding the product. Prototypes recently completed and first production run is likely to be in February. We will be a NEXT exhibiter for SHOT show next week, and in Feb. we will have a couple of well known/highly regarded reviewers conduct their reviews and product testing as well. As always, your feedback/thoughts are greatly appreciated. If the videos spur any other questions as well please post them and I will reply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T68QbxqGLGo&feature=youtu.be&rel=0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2lkR7ZmQ94&feature=youtu.be&rel=0
more video will also be coming.
Watched the videos. You lost me. I'm cross dominant, and primarily shoulder with my left hand.. but not always. Hanging sharp metal where I expect NTCH cheekweld and right where my fingers cross with an ambi CH.. just, nope.
Hey All,
As promised, below are two links to some videos regarding the product. Prototypes recently completed and first production run is likely to be in February. We will be a NEXT exhibiter for SHOT show next week, and in Feb. we will have a couple of well known/highly regarded reviewers conduct their reviews and product testing as well. As always, your feedback/thoughts are greatly appreciated. If the videos spur any other questions as well please post them and I will reply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T68QbxqGLGo&feature=youtu.be&rel=0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2lkR7ZmQ94&feature=youtu.be&rel=0
more video will also be coming.
That makes sense. It is designed for right handed firers in mind. Thanks for commenting...
That makes sense. It is designed for right handed firers in mind. Thanks for commenting...
I gotta say - thank you, for taking every bit of feedback good or bad in stride and pushing forward without loosing your head. I wish you the best with the adapter.
Hey All,
As promised, below are two links to some videos regarding the product. Prototypes recently completed and first production run is likely to be in February. We will be a NEXT exhibiter for SHOT show next week, and in Feb. we will have a couple of well known/highly regarded reviewers conduct their reviews and product testing as well. As always, your feedback/thoughts are greatly appreciated. If the videos spur any other questions as well please post them and I will reply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T68QbxqGLGo&feature=youtu.be&rel=0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2lkR7ZmQ94&feature=youtu.be&rel=0
more video will also be coming.
The end plate and receiver extension should not remove from the rifle that way and the parts on it are non standard.
The receiver extension end plate is an anti rotation feature for the receiver extension. It should be keyed to the receiver extension and therefore forced to turn with it.
The disassembly instructions in the video at 1:14-1:40, you do not "hold the end plate in place and turn the receiver extension". The receiver end plate in this video is damaged and the stock had no anti rotation feature as installed. Because of this oversight the video gives improper disassembly procedure for any properly assembled rifle.
I'll hold back on product opinions, but that video certainly needs to go back to the drawing board.
https://youtu.be/kVGZX6ykdFM
TMS951:
thanks for the comment, interesting insight. The assembly instructions as described in the video are accurate, but the narrator was using a pistol butt plate that didn't have the anti rotation knob. With some time constraints we were/are under relating to shot show we wanted to get an assembly/disassembly video out there for users. I think most users (clearly someone like you) would see the difference when assembling the part. If you like I will pm you updated video after shot show. If you are going to be at shot show come check us out.
For that matter, ANYONE on this forum going to shot show come check us out, reference this thread and Viper5, will receive a discount.
Gentlemen...on another note, bringing a niche product like this to market has been an amazing journey, but without the invaluable feedback from professionals/SME's like you I don't know how far we would have come. Might seem like an odd statement to some of you who stated that you would not want to purchase and listed your reasons why, but the questions and concerns brought up in forums like this have truly increased the quality of design and inspired slight modifications/enhancements. Again, this product fits a whole in the market by decreasing OAL for concealment and carry purposes while still allowing user to fire while rifle is folded. It is the first of its kind, now the reviewers (who most of us are familiar with) will be taking the next step in verifying quality/durability.
Thank you all for the well wishes. Thanks also for keeping abreast of our progress.
And again, we welcome in advance the continued dialogue...
Any outside testers had a chance to run this yet?
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Any plans to make/sell this as a pistol buffer kit?
Any outside testers had a chance to run this yet?
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I have spoken with Viper a bit about doing a review, but hasn't happened yet. I hope it does, I'm interested to see what this is like.
Hello Everyone,
The product is also sold at a reduced price as a AR pistol buffer kit. PM me for details.
Kevin Vick with Crucible arms is about to do a review. See below initial video taken at SHOT Show last week.
https://youtu.be/joJQqWwghtk
Gun Blast will also be doing a review likely next month.
The remaining prototypes are already earmarked to other online reviewers and I will be posting all upcoming reviews when made available. First ship date is expected to be May 1.
We have put 10k rounds thru it ourselves but understand completely the desire to see third party testers post their opinions on the product. Thank you for your patience.
Shot Show was a huge success. Most of the purchases came from dealers doing their own custom AR Builds.
As always, let me know of any other thoughts/questions.
Thanks,
Viper5
Neat. Hope it sells well for you.
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