View Full Version : Caliber that has edge in Lethal encounter
veteran-USMC
10-26-15, 12:23
Howdy Everyone! I am centering my question on the subject of handguns. I am comfortable shooting 45 cal., 357 Magunum , 357sig,,& 9mm. With thee exception of the 357 sig my accuracy is very good---the 357 sig my accuracy is excellent. I am looking to buy a new handgun. This handgun will be used for home protection.
What caliber handgun with the proper placement of shots (not including people on drugs,etc.) have you heard seems to have an edge in stopping a lethal attack? To me I find it interesting to constantly fine tune your shooting skills. Most people on the internet will say --any caliber will do BUT my question is what caliber handgun will have thee edge (however small) in a lethal encounter?:) Thank-you shooters for your time & experienced opinion.
Thank-you!
Sincerely
A rifle caliber or shotgun.
In all seriousness, this has been beat to death for years. Shot placement and penetration to vital organs is key. Of those you listed, pick your favorite and be happy.
TimeOnTarget
10-26-15, 12:35
This topic gets beaten to death constantly. I don't even want to go down that road in this reply so, I will take a different tack.
The ballistics are all so similar now that what does give you an edge is the quality of training you have and your personal ability to perform under stress. We can attend force on force these days with airsoft type systems that keep us honest. Can you perform all the tasks at a high level? Can you present your weapon from concealment and engage effectively, etc.
There is so much good information available today, but you have to know what is valid and what is bull. After years of studying this craft, I see that most folks believe what they want to believe. Wasting your time with them is a fool's errand.
Howdy Everyone! I am centering my question on the subject of handguns. I am comfortable shooting 45 cal., 357 Magunum , 357sig,,& 9mm. With thee exception of the 357 sig my accuracy is very good---the 357 sig my accuracy is excellent. I am looking to buy a new handgun. This handgun will be used for home protection.
What caliber handgun with the proper placement of shots (not including people on drugs,etc.) have you heard seems to have an edge in stopping a lethal attack? To me I find it interesting to constantly fine tune your shooting skills. Most people on the internet will say --any caliber will do BUT my question is what caliber handgun will have thee edge (however small) in a lethal encounter?:) Thank-you shooters for your time & experienced opinion.
Thank-you!
Sincerely
Of the ones you mentioned, the .357 Magnum is going to drop someone the fastest with the same shot placement. If you think you will need to take care of multiple intruders and will be less accurate under a high stress situation, then go for a higher capacity firearm.
Of the ones you mentioned, the .357 Magnum is going to drop someone the fastest with the same shot placement.
Please enlighten us with your statistically significant data that supports your claim.
Howdy Everyone! I am centering my question on the subject of handguns. I am comfortable shooting 45 cal., 357 Magunum , 357sig,,& 9mm. With thee exception of the 357 sig my accuracy is very good---the 357 sig my accuracy is excellent. I am looking to buy a new handgun. This handgun will be used for home protection.
What caliber handgun with the proper placement of shots (not including people on drugs,etc.) have you heard seems to have an edge in stopping a lethal attack? To me I find it interesting to constantly fine tune your shooting skills. Most people on the internet will say --any caliber will do BUT my question is what caliber handgun will have thee edge (however small) in a lethal encounter?:) Thank-you shooters for your time & experienced opinion.
Thank-you!
Sincerely
Why not stick with .357sig if you shoot it with "excellent" accuracy?
GLOCKPISTOLERO
10-26-15, 14:13
Caliber is nowhere near as important as accuracy and shot placement. As for the the drug induced assaulter, shot placement is key. Proper shot placement will end any encounter. Training should be your focus.
Dionysusigma
10-26-15, 14:23
.455 Webley Auto
Please enlighten us with your statistically significant data that supports your claim.
You will notice that I said with the same shot placement that the magnum is better. This is just pure physics. I didn't say it was a better choice, just that it will create more damage and thus drop someone faster if all variables are equal.
http://cj.supraspeed.com/Pics/Weapons/PistolPowerComparison.jpg
To bad The Dentist isn't welcome here anymore.
The handgun caliber that will have the edge in a lethal force encounter is the one that you can engage a moving target with 5 rounds through the same hole while on the move with.
Until you can do that, you should worry more about getting quality training time than any caliber minutiae/mental masturbation.
Wise man once said, "It's the Indian, not the arrow." I remind myself of that when my mind gets to wandering too far thinking about all the options out there.
ramairthree
10-26-15, 18:05
What you shoot rapidly and accurately with good bullets in either of your selections.
What is the story on how a dentist is a ballistics expert and why are they not welcome here?
You will notice that I said with the same shot placement that the magnum is better. This is just pure physics. I didn't say it was a better choice, just that it will create more damage and thus drop someone faster if all variables are equal.
http://cj.supraspeed.com/Pics/Weapons/PistolPowerComparison.jpg
penetration is missing
In my career what I observed in terms of firearms and shooting people, brought me to the following conclusion. I will never willing use a pistol to defend myself or my loved ones if a rifle or even a shoulder fired PCC is available.
I carry a pistol when I go out in the USA because I conceal it and the threat level for me doesn't warrant hauling a rifle around. In Israel or Africa you will find me with a rifle backed up by a pistol.
I believe the difference in your shot placement as you fire multiple rounds into the bad guys will have a greater impact on the outcome, than by using any of the calibers you listed.
Put a 5.56 rifle by your bed and rest easy.
The one that hits the intended target in the proper place...
You will notice that I said with the same shot placement that the magnum is better. This is just pure physics. I didn't say it was a better choice, just that it will create more damage and thus drop someone faster if all variables are equal.
http://cj.supraspeed.com/Pics/Weapons/PistolPowerComparison.jpg
https://app.box.com/shared/static/s112hu8p8e.gif
It's the 1980's all over again in this thread.
...
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-26-15, 18:52
45-70.
https://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-4570-Revolver-75-inch-Barrel.asp
penetration is missing
Pretty much everything pertaining to actual terminal ballistic properties is missing . . .
....
friendlyfireisnt
10-26-15, 19:52
Pretty much everything pertaining to actual terminal ballistic properties is missing . . .
....
But, but, but, stopping power and energy transfer.
Yeah, just can't say those with a straight face.
But, but, but, stopping power and energy transfer.
Yeah, just can't say those with a straight face.
Don't forget SHOCK WAVE . . .
friendlyfireisnt
10-26-15, 20:07
Don't forget SHOCK WAVE . . .
No, no, no. Shockwaves and hydrostatic shock are so '90's. If we are taking the '80's we need a bunch of goats. Yeah, that's the ticket. European goats, and a super secret test.
After all, 1 shot stops.....
Thank God we have moved forward.
This is a loaded question. I know some old guard types who totally swear by .357 and the .38 LSWCHP. I personally like .45 just because I am so used to it.
With modern 9MM, we're a long way from the super vel days.
Really any pistol will do what a pistol will do.
If I absolutely knew I was going into the fight of my life;I'm toting a rifle. Probably. 308.
Pistol calibers now are like smartphones. At one point there were big differences but now they all do pretty much the same thing.
arbninftry
10-26-15, 22:08
The Dentist is a reference to a disagreement a couple years before you joined, between some moderators.
ramairthree
"What you shoot rapidly and accurately with good bullets in either of your selections.
What is the story on how a dentist is a ballistics expert and why are they not welcome here?"
Guns-up.50
10-26-15, 22:11
The handgun caliber that will have the edge in a lethal force encounter is the one that you can engage a moving target with 5 rounds through the same hole while on the move with.
Can you do this? Id love to see it
10 hits with a 22 LR Stinger ammo is much better than 6 misses with a 44 mag. Took me a while to convince a res Dep of this. He thought he was Dirty Harry reborn.
titsonritz
10-27-15, 02:22
To bad The Dentist isn't welcome here anymore.
The Dentist is a reference to a disagreement a couple years before you joined, between some moderators.
ramairthree
"What you shoot rapidly and accurately with good bullets in either of your selections.
What is the story on how a dentist is a ballistics expert and why are they not welcome here?"
But the info is still out there...
Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo)
Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4328-Basic-Wound-Ballistic-Terminal-Performance-Facts)
ginzomatic
10-27-15, 03:00
I foresee this thread getting shut down pretty soon.
What has been said here over and over is correct. Personally, I prefer a Glock 17 because I have practiced with it a lot; I feel comfortable shooting and manipulating it for reloads and immediate/remedial actions. It is also a weapon that has been proven reliable by people with much more experience than I have.
Find what you personally feel most comfortable most with and stick with that.
Practice big and small. If you have decent placement with a .45, shooting a 9 will be like using a bb gun.
I like this study. http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
Lots of problems with the data, but one key valid takeaway is that with any pistol caliber you statistically need to plan on needing to hit somebody more than once to incapacitate them. Doesn't matter if it's a 380 or a 45. They'll probably need two or more hits if they keep coming (interestingly, many attackers disengage after the first hit with any caliber).
So, yes, get a rifle :)
A friend of mine shot his wife (by accident) with a 357 from about 8 feet with a 357. (don't recall him saying if it was a HP or FMJ) The shot entered her upper left lobe and exited her back, she lived 20 minutes FWIW. So even a 357 may need a follow up shot.
Odd thing is he was killed a few years later by a single round to the neck, never found out what caliber.
wildcard600
10-27-15, 07:25
Unless their is some compelling reason why you need to use a handgun for home defense, i would arm myself with a rifle or shotgun instead.
FlyingHunter
10-27-15, 07:34
Pretty much everything pertaining to actual terminal ballistic properties is missing . . .
....
Truth^^^.
I've always thought Colonel Cooper taught us well...paraphrasing: "My pistol is what I use to get to my rifle".
Someone is certainly invited to point out if I have this wrong, but assuming you are using a handgun, caliber irrelevant, you would not want multiple shots in the same hole.
Since maximum damage is the goal to make the attacker cease aggression, multiple hits in the same spot would seem to increase damage only marginally after the first hit, whereas multiple hits in at least slightly different locations would stack up much more damage.
Accuracy is still very important, but a relatively small group of hits, I would think, would do more total damage than several hits in the same spot.
As in, both lungs and heart having taken hits, versus heart or one lung shot out.
I would think the guy with both lungs collapsing and heart leaking out is going down faster than the one with both lungs functional and heart leaking out, or just one lung collapsing.
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Any of the calibers mentioned would get the job done if you do your part. If I was given a choice, I'd prefer 12 ga slug or 00, though. Even if they don't go down, it'll make them want to stop bothering you.
Someone is certainly invited to point out if I have this wrong, but assuming you are using a handgun, caliber irrelevant, you would not want multiple shots in the same hole.
Since maximum damage is the goal to make the attacker cease aggression, multiple hits in the same spot would seem to increase damage only marginally after the first hit, whereas multiple hits in at least slightly different locations would stack up much more damage.
Accuracy is still very important, but a relatively small group of hits, I would think, would do more total damage than several hits in the same spot.
As in, both lungs and heart having taken hits, versus heart or one lung shot out.
I would think the guy with both lungs collapsing and heart leaking out is going down faster than the one with both lungs functional and heart leaking out, or just one lung collapsing.
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Bullets don't make actual holes, the tissue will collapse, so even shooting the same entrance hole from the same angle will increase the damage.
Most important is penetration, and shot placement.
Then load. An good 9mm load will beat a 50 fmj.
The load that shoots softest and has the highest capacity while expanding reliably while being able to reach vitals even through clothing and barriers is the best pistol load. That is 9mm.
Rifle/shotgun is better, but strictly civil handgun, go with 9. That said, I use 40, but it's not for knockdown power, I have other reasons. The 2 round capacity disadvantage I find acceptable.
mkmckinley
10-27-15, 09:53
9mm in modern loadings meets penetration and expansion standards while offering high capacity, fast follow up, and cheap practice. I'd say a shooter with 17rds of 9mm and 10,000 rounds of practice would be statistically more likely to win a fight than an equally trained guy with 13 rounds of .357 SIG and 6,000 rounds of practice.
sevenhelmet
10-27-15, 10:45
Caliber debates can be fun, but only to a point. When it starts to devolve into urban legends or words like "knockdown" or "stopping power" get used, I tend to tune out. A handgun is a compromise, and the best handgun is one that is reliable, shoots well, and is trained with regularly. Additional factors such as cost, capacity, and concealability may be as important as caliber. The choice of firearm for any purpose is a personal one, and as long as these factors are considered before a choice is made, I think one is doing far better than the masses.
Bullets don't make actual holes, the tissue will collapse, so even shooting the same entrance hole from the same angle will increase the damage.
Most important is penetration, and shot placement.
Then load. An good 9mm load will beat a 50 fmj.
The load that shoots softest and has the highest capacity while expanding reliably while being able to reach vitals even through clothing and barriers is the best pistol load. That is 9mm.
Rifle/shotgun is better, but strictly civil handgun, go with 9. That said, I use 40, but it's not for knockdown power, I have other reasons. The 2 round capacity disadvantage I find acceptable.
Fair enough.
I agree on the needed amount of penetration, and shot placement.
While I carried a 8rd 1911 for a long time, been running a 15rd 9mm lately.
I have the same gun in a 357sig, but I cannot hit as quickly with it as the 9mm.
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Howdy,
Unless their is some compelling reason why you need to use a handgun for home defense, i would arm myself with a rifle or shotgun instead.
+1!
I have over 25 handguns and every time I grab a HD weapon it's also a Win Defender 12ga pump.
Paul
For your reading please. Lucky Gunner test 10-15-15 http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
For your reading please. Lucky Gunner test 10-15-15 http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
"Clear Ballistics" gel is not the scientific standard for professional terminal ballistic testing.
titsonritz
10-28-15, 12:44
"Clear Ballistics" gel is not the scientific standard for professional terminal ballistic testing.
The ones that really crack me up use a row of water jugs for their proof testing.
"Clear Ballistics" gel is not the scientific standard for professional terminal ballistic testing.
...but it looks cool:)
Leaveammoforme
10-28-15, 16:29
"Clear Ballistics" gel is not the scientific standard for professional terminal ballistic testing.
Does it really matter if it's yellow, clear or even pink? If a BB at the correct FPS penetrates to the spec depth, is the gel not 'calibrated'?
Does it really matter if it's yellow, clear or even pink? If a BB at the correct FPS penetrates to the spec depth, is the gel not 'calibrated'?
Here’s a quote on the subject matter from an actual expert in the field of terminal ballistics.
"Consistency is important, particularly when discussing results done at different test facilities. For example, if a test performed on the West Coast offers concordant results to one conducted by the FBI BRF on the East Coast, that is a good sign that the lab test procedure is repeatable. If those laboratory results are also found to accurately correlate with data from actual shooting incidents in the real world, that further validates the test protocol.
An example would be Gene Wolberg's analysis of over 150 OIS incidents in San Diego--after accounting for the greater variables in real world shootings, his data set demonstrated that the laboratory findings were almost exactly the same as the laboratory results from both his facility, as well as tests done at SJPD, CHP, LAIR, and FBI BRF.
Note that unlike properly prepared and validated 10% ordnance gel, I am unaware of any testing done which correlates synthetic ballistic test media with actual shooting incident data..."
...
From a scientific point of view, if we know, for example, that 147gr HST performs to a given specification, we should be able to calibrate our interpretation of the results using that as a baseline since all rounds in this test were tested in a consistent fashion within the confines of this test.
At least, that's my take on it.
Howdy tits,
The ones that really crack me up use a row of water jugs for their proof testing.
But I like shootin' waterjugs!
Here's a couple of YouTube vids:
147gr XTP
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bnU18WPPGbs
.300blackout
https://m.youtube.com/watch
Paul
Just find out exactly what what 'kind' of pistol you shoot the best, and go with it. I found that I shoot the best with HK pistols and 1911's, so that's what I carry. What caliber? Well I tend to prefer the 45ACP in the field, and the 9mm about the town... Around the house it's definitely the 9mm.
Here’s a quote on the subject matter from an actual expert in the field of terminal ballistics.
"Consistency is important, particularly when discussing results done at different test facilities. For example, if a test performed on the West Coast offers concordant results to one conducted by the FBI BRF on the East Coast, that is a good sign that the lab test procedure is repeatable. If those laboratory results are also found to accurately correlate with data from actual shooting incidents in the real world, that further validates the test protocol.
An example would be Gene Wolberg's analysis of over 150 OIS incidents in San Diego--after accounting for the greater variables in real world shootings, his data set demonstrated that the laboratory findings were almost exactly the same as the laboratory results from both his facility, as well as tests done at SJPD, CHP, LAIR, and FBI BRF.
Note that unlike properly prepared and validated 10% ordnance gel, I am unaware of any testing done which correlates synthetic ballistic test media with actual shooting incident data..."
...
when quoting "actual experts" you might want to note the "actual expert"
From a scientific point of view, if we know, for example, that 147gr HST performs to a given specification, we should be able to calibrate our interpretation of the results using that as a baseline since all rounds in this test were tested in a consistent fashion within the confines of this test.
At least, that's my take on it.
agreed, but I don't consider the LG test more than a good read. In other words I'd choose my defense ammo from the "FBI list" vs the ones which performed well in the LG test.
when quoting "actual experts" you might want to note the "actual expert"
If you can not figure that one out on your own, then there is no point in me trying to explain it to you.
this is beat to death
:lazy:
reloader550
10-29-15, 09:50
The 22LR
diving dave
10-29-15, 11:15
I'm late to the party, I was going to recommend 50BMG :rolleyes:
Can you do this? Id love to see it
Sure as hell can't, which is why I follow the advice of the rest of my post and put more mental, financial, and time resources into training.
titsonritz
11-01-15, 14:57
Howdy tits,
But I like shootin' waterjugs!
Here's a couple of YouTube vids:
147gr XTP
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bnU18WPPGbs
.300blackout
https://m.youtube.com/watch
Paul
Well sure, who doesn't. It is just not much a scientific study.
Howdy,
Well sure, who doesn't. It is just not much a scientific study.
Sure, it's not scientific, but something that I've learned down through the years by shooting waterjugs and then shooting a live critter is the fact that if the bullet doesn't preform when shooting a waterjug it will NOT perform when shooting a live critter.
At the same time the M193 round when fired into ballastic gel under lab conditions performs excellent fails miserably when fired into a waterjug or a live critter. This isn't a good thing especially when the live critter is armed and trying to kill you.
Anywho........
For those of us that are either too poor or too cheap to buy gel waterjugs will have to do. I prefer to use waterjugs that are filled with shredded newspaper that have been allowed to lturn into pulp. These work better than just plain water.
Paul
At the same time the M193 round when fired into ballastic gel under lab conditions performs excellent . . .
M193 fails miserably a significant percentage of the time during professional testing . . .
https://app.box.com/shared/static/9gmebfjy76.jpg
....
Howdy,
Sure, it's not scientific, but something that I've learned down through the years by shooting waterjugs and then shooting a live critter is the fact that if the bullet doesn't preform when shooting a waterjug it will NOT perform when shooting a live critter.
At the same time the M193 round when fired into ballastic gel under lab conditions performs excellent fails miserably when fired into a waterjug or a live critter. This isn't a good thing especially when the live critter is armed and trying to kill you.
Anywho........
For those of us that are either too poor or too cheap to buy gel waterjugs will have to do. I prefer to use waterjugs that are filled with shredded newspaper that have been allowed to lturn into pulp. These work better than just plain water.
Paul
M193 performs very sporadically. I've had it ice pic water jugs. I've had it fragment 2" I to a critter. According to jel data, it sucks. Repeated testing shows its not good.
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