View Full Version : Building an upper
ncshooter18
10-30-15, 11:34
I am interested in building the upper for my next rifle so I can get the handguard I want. I have a list of parts, any suggestions or experience with these parts is welcome. Also what vice blocks are you guys using to secure your uppers?
Aero assembled upper (FA and dust cover installed)
Faxon Firearms 16" pencil midlength barrel with pinned low pro gas block
ALG EMR v2 MLOK
I am trying to keep this from being really expensive. Does these parts look good to you guys?
556BlackRifle
10-30-15, 12:23
Your parts list looks great for a budget build. I very rarely use a vice block anymore since purchasing the Geissele Reaction Rod. It's kind of pricy so unless you want to invest in tools, a vice block might be a better way for you to go. My vice block of choice is the Wheeler Engineering Delta Series (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/210021/wheeler-engineering-delta-series-upper-receiver-vise-block-clamp-ar-15?cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-pf_ci_google-_-pf_ci_google-_-pf_ci_google&gclid=Cj0KEQjwqsyxBRCIxtminsmwkMABEiQAzL34PZNbBrYHVZtj4hXNnMI87ttPcvbXCg8Wo0TJM6HrluIaAi618P8HAQ). I don't usually recommend Wheeler products but I do like their vice block. (Don't buy one of their barrel nut wrenches!) Anyway, their vice block is great and works well. For a few more bucks you could buy a DPMS Panther Claw (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-DPMS-Panther-Claw-p/panther%20claw%20ar15.htm). This is a great system as well.
Good luck and have fun with the build!
Coal Dragger
10-30-15, 13:11
I use a PRI vice block, which allows for attaching the upper using the take down pins at the bottom of the upper or on the other side using the clamp to attach to the Picatinny flat top instead. One nice thing about it is that the Picatinny grove/clamp allow you to do a pretty fair job of aligning your flat top upper with the top rail of your hand guard and making sure they are squared up.
FaxonNathan
10-31-15, 16:34
I am interested in building the upper for my next rifle so I can get the handguard I want. I have a list of parts, any suggestions or experience with these parts is welcome. Also what vice blocks are you guys using to secure your uppers?
Aero assembled upper (FA and dust cover installed)
Faxon Firearms 16" pencil midlength barrel with pinned low pro gas block
ALG EMR v2 MLOK
I am trying to keep this from being really expensive. Does these parts look good to you guys?
Looks good to us. ;)
I would recommend a BEV block or reaction rod over a vice block. You'll probably get better mileage out of the BEV.
As a matter of fact the last rifle I put together was with an Aero assembled upper and a Faxon 16" middy barrel (I used the Gunner profile instead of the Pencil). Both are great quality products and I would recommend them to anybody. I will never go with another Anderson upper... these Aeros are much nicer, and if you can find them for $60 like I did, it's a great deal. I used the Faxon low pro nitride gas block (clamp-on) and their gas tube as well. All of it was great. Pinning a gas block like you are planning would be even better, as long as you use a good one that is designed for pinning, like the BRT Micro-pin. I have no experience with the ALG handguard. I used the UTG Pro Keymod on mine, and was highly impressed with it too... it really exceeded my expectations. I honestly see no reason to go with anything else.
As far as a vise block, based on advise from TOS, I got a set of No-Mar blocks off Ebay. They work great. I got the one that works for both AR-15 and .308 ARs, and really couldn't be happier.
Slvr Surfr
11-01-15, 13:42
I can't work on an upper without using my reaction rod it makes like easier and is faster to setup. Fortunately, Botach makes a copy and it's a little cheaper.
https://www.botach.com/kley-zion-ar15-m4-barrel-spline-socket-rod/
Looks good, I would insist on buying a bag of small replacement parts from PSA, its a bag of detents and detent springs and some roll pins just in case you loose some in the process. I've lost too many springs and small parts to count.
What kind of muzzle device are you going to use? Post some pics when done!
titsonritz
11-01-15, 21:52
I'll echo, a reaction rod is very nice for working on uppers.
The Reaction Rod sucks, I would not buy one... They break index pins all the time.
Everyone here will disagree with me but that's okay.
titsonritz
11-02-15, 14:54
The Reaction Rod sucks, I would not buy one... They break index pins all the time.
Everyone here will disagree me but that's okay.
How is that even possible? The Reaction rod’s splines secure the barrel extension from turning. There is no turning force to pass through the index pin into the receiver.
How is that even possible? The Reaction rod’s splines secure the barrel extension from turning. There is no turning force to pass through the index pin into the receiver.
The torque force doesn't pass through the index pin into the receiver, it passes through the receiver into index pin.
titsonritz
11-02-15, 15:49
The torque force doesn't pass through the index pin into the receiver, it passes through the receiver into index pin.
Sure it does, with a vise block but not a Reaction Rod.
Sure it does, with a vise block but not a Reaction Rod.
That is correct. Though I was only describing what the torque is transferred through when using the Reaction Rod.
This will be good. A classic chicken or egg pissing match! I am on the RR or BEV side for R&R of the barrel nut. Bets are off for a stuck muzzle device. Ask me how I know.
The Reaction Rod sucks, I would not buy one... They break index pins all the time.
Everyone here will disagree with me but that's okay.
Where are the reports of all these pins breaking? I would love to read those for myself.
Where are the reports of all these pins breaking? I would love to read those for myself.
Most of them were posted about over on TOS, you can find a few threads by searching Google but a lot of the earlier posts are nearly impossible to find.
ARFCOM is much more divided about the use of the Reaction Rod than this forum is.
OP- I've been very happy with ALG's rails. Sounds like you are building a fast handling upper. I went with the BEV block based on price. The BEV block and ALG's rails have worked well for all four uppers I've build. While I'm not married to the BEV block by any means, I'd CERTAINLY do the ALG rail again. I don't hang anything more than sights and a light off my mid-length carbine, and I don't hang anything at all off my spr, so ALG's rails have been a home run. I don't honesty know if there's a different rail I'd like more for the direction I went with, and it was nice not having to buy a torque wrench.
OP, I just built much the same upper as you (BA 14.7" pencil bbl and shaved FSB) and the ALG V2 rail has to be the cleanest handguard around. I'm seriously thinking about pulling a brand new SLR off of my pistol built and swapping it out.
I borrowed a buddy's Wheeler action vice to do the build. Worked well, with no marring (but I'd put some index card in there next time just for cheap insurance). I found that a little anti-seize grease on the nut goes a long way.
Sent from 80ms in the future
Much peace
Jimmy
I am interested in building the upper for my next rifle so I can get the handguard I want. I have a list of parts, any suggestions or experience with these parts is welcome. Also what vice blocks are you guys using to secure your uppers?
Aero assembled upper (FA and dust cover installed)
Faxon Firearms 16" pencil midlength barrel with pinned low pro gas block
ALG EMR v2 MLOK
I am trying to keep this from being really expensive. Does these parts look good to you guys?
Looks fine, but I don't see a BCG which is the heart of an AR. Don't go cheap with the BCG. The BCG has more to do with the reliability of your rifle than ANYTHING except for magazine.
I guess you have already had the gas block pinned? Because that is tricky without the right jig and drill press.
As far as vice blocks go. I have a Brownells version of a Reaction Rod and a DPMS vice block which works very well. www.midwayusa.com DPMS Action Block (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/730930/dpms-upper-receiver-action-block-ar-15-delrin). I use the Vice block for barrel installs and the Reaction Rod deal for muzzle devices.
If you use the DPMS block, you put the block in and the pins through, then you turn the receiver on its side and clamp it into the vice with a protective block of wood on the top rail side and the DPMS block on the other. So you are squeezing the receiver between the top of the receiver and the bottom of the receiver. This makes for a very secure working environment that doesn't put as much pressure on the receiver pin holes.
As far as the ALG rail is concerned you might want to give the EMR V1 another look. The V2 looks good but ALG put the M-Lok slots at weird angles. There are no slots at 3 and 9 O'clock IIRC. I have a rifle with a EMR V1 M-Lok, and I'm happy with it.
Good luck.
The only way that you can shear and indexing pin, is if you overtorque the barrel nut, or a nut has seized and you try to break it loose. I have done probably a few hundred uppers using a Reaction Rod. The only time I sheared a pin was trying to correct someone else's mistake. They torqued the nut well over 80 ft./lbs. and they didn't use any anti-seize.
ncshooter18
11-03-15, 06:20
I ordered the assembled upper and Botach reaction rod today.
556BlackRifle
11-03-15, 09:32
I ordered the assembled upper and Botach reaction rod today.
Good luck! If the Botach rod is anything like the Geissele rod, you're going to love it.
I think the newer version of the reaction rod addresses any risks of shearing the pin, though as IG points out this is isn't really possible unless you go above 80 ft-lbs of torque. For a new builds using controlled torque values (such as the EMR) it's not an issue at all.
How to tell new RR from old?
---------------------
Speaking of Anti-Seize ... what is the prep for a barrel.
I have seen guys use nothing... or at least not mention they are using anything. Just slide barrel in and torque things down.
I have seen guys use the copper anti-seize on thread only. Dry barrel.
I have seen guys put Aero 33 on the threads, inside receiver, and barrel.
I have seen guys put Aero 33 on outside of barrel only.
What exactly is the proper way to lubricate, protect, etc.. the barrel and receiver threads?
How to tell new RR from old?
---------------------
Speaking of Anti-Seize ... what is the prep for a barrel.
I have seen guys use nothing... or at least not mention they are using anything. Just slide barrel in and torque things down.
I have seen guys use the copper anti-seize on thread only. Dry barrel.
I have seen guys put Aero 33 on the threads, inside receiver, and barrel.
I have seen guys put Aero 33 on outside of barrel only.
What exactly is the proper way to lubricate, protect, etc.. the barrel and receiver threads?
The "new" Reaction Rod is known as the Super Reaction Rod and it has two brass wedges that fit through the ejection port that stop the upper from being able to rotate against the index pin. The brass wedges also preload the barrel extension lugs against the lugs of the Reaction Rod in the direction of torque you choose (loosening or tightening).
The brass wedges make it an absolute bitch to install a barrel with the torque three times to 30 foot pounds barrel installation method as found in the tech manuals, because before you change the direction of torque you have to readjust the brass wedges every time you do so.
As for lubing the threads AeroShell 33MS meets the spec, you put it on the threads of the upper receiver, on the threads of the barrel nut and the outside surface (side facing the FSB) of the barrel extension flange. Iraqgunz uses Loctite C5-A but that contains graphite and is considered a no-go by most guys on the forums, I used to use Brownells Barrel Assembly Paste which contains 65% moly but this was discontinued, now I use T S Moly TS-70 moly paste which contains 70% moly.
10-4, thanks,
Do you guys think that BEV block would be a good option for the casual but careful builder, no volume. IOW, you get a similar upper deal and a lower block as well... but that upper part of the BEV I wonder if it has any issues to be concerned about?
10-4, thanks,
Do you guys think that BEV block would be a good option for the casual but careful builder, no volume. IOW, you get a similar upper deal and a lower block as well... but that upper part of the BEV I wonder if it has any issues to be concerned about?
I think the BEV Block would be okay for your use, it is likely better than the standard Reaction Rod since it has built in stops that would prevent the upper receiver from shearing the index pin.
Or you could just wait for this awesome barreling jig like I have been. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_489/254215_Windham_Weaponry_upper_assembly_jig_.html
SilverBullet432
11-03-15, 23:49
^ I haven't broken any indexing pins yet with mine. Then again some people could be over torquing their parts...
I doubt most of the guys on the forums have built as many guns as I have. I have been using C5-A for well over 10 years, and on my personal guns.
The "new" Reaction Rod is known as the Super Reaction Rod and it has two brass wedges that fit through the ejection port that stop the upper from being able to rotate against the index pin. The brass wedges also preload the barrel extension lugs against the lugs of the Reaction Rod in the direction of torque you choose (loosening or tightening).
The brass wedges make it an absolute bitch to install a barrel with the torque three times to 30 foot pounds barrel installation method as found in the tech manuals, because before you change the direction of torque you have to readjust the brass wedges every time you do so.
As for lubing the threads AeroShell 33MS meets the spec, you put it on the threads of the upper receiver, on the threads of the barrel nut and the outside surface (side facing the FSB) of the barrel extension. Iraqgunz uses loctite C5-A but that contains graphite and is considered a no-go by most guys on the forums, I used to use Brownells Barrel Assembly Paste which contains 65% moly but this was discontinued, now I use T S Moly TS-70 moly paste which contains 70% moly.
titsonritz
11-04-15, 02:12
Will plain simple lithium wheel bearing grease do the trick?
Will plain simple lithium wheel bearing grease do the trick?
Works for me.
I doubt most of the guys on the forums have built as many guns as I have. I have been using C5-A for well over 10 years, and on my personal guns.
What is it about Loctite C5-A? What made you decide to use it in the first place and what makes you keep using it when anything with graphite in it is considered by most to be not good?
Ahh... the old Moly paste vs anti seize nonsense. There's some hard cores out that believe your AR will melt, lock up, or self destruct if you assemble the barrel nut with anti seize and only the spec'd Aeroshell moly should be used. Phooey!
Go team anti seize!
I doubt most of the guys on the forums have built as many guns as I have. I have been using C5-A for well over 10 years, and on my personal guns.
Do you change anything for stainless barrels?
Have you taken apart anything many years old that you built and had any issues getting it apart? I mean due to lube. I honestly haven't read anything about the schools of thought other than someone said copper AS could have a galvanic reaction. My BCM built stainless upper looks like it has some sort of brownish (copper?) lube... not sure what they use... It's not grey or white though, that's for sure. I thought a main purpose of copper AS was to prevent galvanic reactions.
MetalDeliveryAssistant
11-04-15, 10:43
Agree with the Geissele Reaction Rod - it is pricey, but guarantees you will not ruin the parts you just purchased.
- Ive often wondered if putting torque on the feed ramps/locking lug area, could cause any problems, but I think the metal of the geissele is softer?? - any thoughts 556BlackRifle?
Brownells sells a version for 308 and the 556 upper. I have not tried it yet but brownells is a place for gunsmiths to buy tools
Its a brownells brand
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
556BlackRifle
11-04-15, 12:27
Agree with the Geissele Reaction Rod - it is pricey, but guarantees you will not ruin the parts you just purchased.
- Ive often wondered if putting torque on the feed ramps/locking lug area, could cause any problems, but I think the metal of the geissele is softer?? - any thoughts 556BlackRifle?
Sorry but I honestly don't know if the RR is made with softer material than the BE. Sounds like a good question for Geissele.....
Brownells sells a version for 308 and the 556 upper. I have not tried it yet but brownells is a place for gunsmiths to buy tools
Its a brownells brand
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
That tool is actually worse than the Reaction Rod if you use it the way the instructions tell you to. The Brownells tool as it is, is not long enough to be clamped in a vise. It is made to be attached to a torque wrench.
This tool actually came out before the Reaction Rod and the way the instructions read everyone avoided it because of the pure ridiculousness of the whole thing.
That tool is actually worse than the Reaction Rod if you use it the way the instructions tell you to. The Brownells tool as it is, is not long enough to be clamped in a vise. It is made to be attached to a torque wrench.
This tool actually came out before the Reaction Rod and the way the instructions read everyone avoided it because of the pure ridiculousness of the whole thing.
I have the Brownell's rod and for occasional use it is fine especially considering it cost me $25 secondhand. If I changed barrels everyday I would have the Geissele rod and a $750 Wilton vise to hold it with.
I have the Brownell's rod and for occasional use it is fine especially considering it cost me $25 secondhand. If I changed barrels everyday I would have the Geissele rod and a $750 Wilton vise to hold it with.
Do you use it the way the instructions say to or do you put a piece of square 1/2 inch steel rod in it and then clamp that in a vice?
Prime example of the Brownells Reaction Rod. > http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/684038_.html&page=1&anc=7014178#i7014178
Auto-X Fil
11-12-15, 14:46
So, it's obviously a no-no to clamp the upper in a vice directly on the forward assist and rounded left side. However, I always just clamp mine between the bottom of the upper and the rail. I have zero issues applying the specified toque to the barrel nut with that setup. For soft jaws I use either wood or UHMWPE (cutting board material). This isn't my photo, but it might as well be - same HF vice, same white plastic blocks:
http://kevinholman.com/byor/ar10noveske/upperclamped.jpg
Also, when removing a barrel nut, always heat it up first! Just an electric heat gun is fine if you're squeamish with a torch. Warming the nut directly expands it, and also loosens/softens anything binding the threads.
titsonritz
11-12-15, 14:50
Prime example of the Brownells Reaction Rod. > http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/684038_.html&page=1&anc=7014178#i7014178
He started out with a DPMS Claw vise block, isn't it possible that it was the culprit? But yeah I can see how torqueing from the rod end could do it. I still think the Geissele rod would not be an issue with in spec torqued barrel nut, 80lbs seem excessive even for removal. Have you seen the same thing happen with Geissele rods or is it just the Brownells type?
He started out with a DPMS Claw vise block, isn't it possible that it was the culprit? But yeah I can see how torqueing from the rod end could do it. I still think the Geissele rod would not be an issue with in spec torqued barrel nut, 80lbs seem excessive even for removal. Have you seen the same thing happen with Geissele rods or is it just the Brownells type?
The DPMS Claw block sucks too but all of the damage being on the left side of the index pin notch indicates that it was the Brownells tool that caused the index pin to shear.
Because of it's popularity I have seen this type of thing happen many more times with the Geissele Reaction Rod, both with installation and removal of the barrel nut but mostly on removal.
Prime example of the Brownells Reaction Rod. > http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/684038_.html&page=1&anc=7014178#i7014178
Prime example of the vise block.>>> https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=49&t=355495
Prime example of the vise block.>>> https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=49&t=355495
Yes, that happens all the time with those DPMS Claw type or pin style vise blocks. Those are made for installing sights and scopes.
Unless you use them like Auto-X Fil shows above.
Do you use it the way the instructions say to or do you put a piece of square 1/2 inch steel rod in it and then clamp that in a vice?
I am a woodworker/gearhead so I whipped up wooden fixture with a 1/2" drive T-handle sandwiched between it clamped to the bench. Working with the upper parallel to and close to the bench doesn't require 3 hands like doing it the Brownell's way. Like I said... I would have the Geissele rod if I did it everyday.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t414/ghchhisc/R_zpsqwygowvb.jpg?1447365177075&1447365177435
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t414/ghchhisc/RR_zpsyraejxxx.jpg?1447365348625&1447365348978
Better than doing it as per Brownells instructions for sure.
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