View Full Version : US MARINE: Stop Perpetuating AR15 Myths!
Voodoochild
10-31-15, 10:24
This is a pretty good video.. Love the McNinja comment..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf0km--Ag8c
SilverBullet432
10-31-15, 10:31
Saw this one a while back. I was though it was fuc*in A!
When I pull the trigger on mine, it goes boom. Even on the rare occasion that I'm using the mag as a monopod. Our instructors had us do this once in a class, just to prove this point...
When was monopoding an AR a thing?
Literally the first time I've ever heard this.
Also give an AR to a kid or a girl and they tend to rest the mag on the bench. No problems.
I think people just make things up sometimes.
Leonidas24
10-31-15, 15:47
I didn't expect to see this on here. Daniel and I work together at Thunderbird Firearms Academy in Wichita KS. He's the lead instructor and a damn good one at that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDFH2ENwdQ
This is another one ours', when we were in the process of moving from our old store to the new location with a range and larger retail floor space. The Funker Tactical guys were there filming along with two gentlemen from AXTS who volunteered to pull additional security.
When was monopoding an AR a thing?
Literally the first time I've ever heard this.
Also give an AR to a kid or a girl and they tend to rest the mag on the bench. No problems.
I think people just make things up sometimes.
We had some guys from the AMU, all had President's hundred tabs, give about 20 of us in my unit a class in 2003 prior to deployment. Using the magazine as a monopod was one thing taught. So they have been doing it prior to that. They also taught the buddy technique as field expedient, using someone's shoulder for stabilization for taking a long shot. They took us out to the machine gun range that had pop up targets out to 900 or 1,000 meters IIRC.
Another myth, or misinformation out there floating around that they cleared up.
Double tap - aim twice, shoot twice.
Hammer tap - aim once, shoot twice.
I have only ever managed to cause an AR to malf while monopoding it off the mag twice. Running a pmag, and leaning hard forward on it, off a bench, where the mag was pretty much wedged into the bench. The malf? It failed to lock back. Fired, cycle, fed fine. I just managed to, through a not insignificant amount of muscle, basically bend the mag enough to get it to fail to lock back on an empty chamber. Maybe if you belly flopped on the rifle while rifling it, putting every ounce on the mag it might cause issues, or you just might destroy the mag at which point yeah I imagine that would cause a malf. 10 years just balancing the rifle off the magazine never managed to cause an issue that way, only when I brute forced it, so I don't consider the monopoding a mag to be an issue. Falls under my, there are more important things to worry about, category of gun stuff, like choosing the latest and greatest lube.
No I mean who said it was a bad thing? Using the magazine.
What are people saying it is supposed to do?
I've (fortunately it seems) never before heard using the magazine was bad. In fact, I was taught it can be a stability point if prone and injured/inapacitated.
When did the internet decide it was bad?
No I mean who said it was a bad thing? Using the magazine.
What are people saying it is supposed to do?
I've (fortunately it seems) never before heard using the magazine was bad. In fact, I was taught it can be a stability point if prone and injured/inapacitated.
When did the internet decide it was bad?
I heard as a byproduct of institutional inbreeding that it causes malfunctions. This started all the way back in basic training when we were first being taught BRM.
It wasn't until training later than I learned that's complete bullshit. I tried to teach more guys to do it, but it was an uphill battle in the Big Army.
Voodoochild
10-31-15, 18:14
I didn't expect to see this on here. Daniel and I work together at Thunderbird Firearms Academy in Wichita KS. He's the lead instructor and a damn good one at that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDFH2ENwdQ
This is another one ours', when we were in the process of moving from our old store to the new location with a range and larger retail floor space. The Funker Tactical guys were there filming along with two gentlemen from AXTS who volunteered to pull additional security.
Glad to see you on here always good to see educated and squared away shooters here. Now tell Daniel to work on his beard looks almost Amish like.
echo5whiskey
10-31-15, 20:44
Another myth, or misinformation out there floating around that they cleared up.
Double tap - aim twice, shoot twice.
Hammer tap - aim once, shoot twice.
What's in a name? I've heard double tap, controlled pair, hammer pair (first time I've honestly heard of "hammer tap"), not all of which has been with the military. It doesn't really matter as long as you know what the heck you're supposed to be doing; whether your shots are with one sight-picture or two.
No I mean who said it was a bad thing? Using the magazine.
What are people saying it is supposed to do?
I've (fortunately it seems) never before heard using the magazine was bad. In fact, I was taught it can be a stability point if prone and injured/inapacitated.
When did the internet decide it was bad?
Some say that resting the rifle or carbine on the magazine induces malfunctions. I have not seen this and have used the magazine as a monopod myself. I have seen malfunctions induced by using the magazine as a vertical handgrip. Pulling the magazine to the rear with a significant amount of pressure induced malfunctions at basic courses I taught and firearm qualifications I ran. And for those who immediately play the mil spec card when they disagree, it happened with Colt rifles and GI magazines.
That being said, I believe the AR-15 is a damn fine weapon.
echo5whiskey
10-31-15, 21:15
Some say that resting the rifle or carbine on the magazine induces malfunctions. I have not seen this and have used the magazine as a monopod myself. I have seen malfunctions induced by using the magazine as a vertical handgrip. Pulling the magazine to the rear with a significant amount of pressure induced malfunctions at basic courses I taught and firearm qualifications I ran. And for those who immediately play the mil spec card when they disagree, it happened with Colt rifles and GI magazines.
That being said, I believe the AR-15 is a damn fine weapon.
I'd say that a lot of it has to do with blaming the mals on operator error instead of realizing that there are some USGI mags that are legitimately bad mags.
"Don't rest the rifle on the magazine" goes back to the days long before the AR Ruled The World
echo5whiskey
10-31-15, 21:55
As in the days of the M14, BAR? Did it have merit to it then?
If that's the case, it's probably another one of those things that gets passed down through the generations of service-members, even though it's irrelevant.
That's what Dad was taught in the Corps back in the fifties (he was BAR-man) and that's what Dad taught me when shooting M1 Carbines, M14s and other weapons with long box magazines. It was the natural course of things that when we started shooting AR15s, the same rules applied.
I don't know if it has any relevance to the earlier weapons, but that was the rule and if I wanted to keep shooting, I followed the rules. It is so deeply ingrained in me that when shooting prone I've never tested my M14, or any of its contemporary battlerifles, using the mag as a mono pod
I don't know why anyone would use a 30 round magazine as a monopod, I'm assuming an elbow rest is far more stable if done correctly.
echo5whiskey
11-01-15, 01:59
I don't know why anyone would use a 30 round magazine as a monopod, I'm assuming an elbow rest is far more stable if done correctly.
For some of us with midget arms, that's almost impossible
I'd say that a lot of it has to do with blaming the mals on operator error instead of realizing that there are some USGI mags that are legitimately bad mags.
One person in particular had malfunctions with his duty rifle, a district spare and my carbine using different magazines. Two of the rifles/carbines were Colts.
If you exert enough rearward pressure on a 30 round magazine, you can induce malfunctions.
I heard as a byproduct of institutional inbreeding that it causes malfunctions. This started all the way back in basic training when we were first being taught BRM.
It wasn't until training later than I learned that's complete bullshit. I tried to teach more guys to do it, but it was an uphill battle in the Big Army.
It's allowed/encouraged in current officer basic and in Infantry BOLC. If prone or circumstances where it makes sense.
I don't know why anyone would use a 30 round magazine as a monopod, I'm assuming an elbow rest is far more stable if done correctly.
Can't always do it, and in many cases it causes higher exposure/profile.
Exposure risk > mythical malf risk
I had similar views based on coaching received in the 70's, it was considered just bad form. And probably left over from BAR/ M1 carbine / M-14 days. But apparently that has changed.
Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
Mag on the deck is a non-issue with properly built guns and mags in good repair. Some legacy instructors and curriculum just won't let go.
Why would you not rest the mag on the ground? One more point of contact for increased stability when prone, if you don't have support for the handguard available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTNAVSDMonI
Why would you not rest the mag on the ground? One more point of contact for increased stability when prone, if you don't have support for the handguard available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTNAVSDMonI
Resting a magazine on the ground is highly recommended with the AR-15 and other rifles. A person should take every advantage they can get.
One problem I have with using the mag as a mono pod is that there is a shift in POI with some ARs. One AR showed a shift of 4 MOA
One problem I have with using the mag as a mono pod is that there is a shift in POI with some ARs. One AR showed a shift of 4 MOA
On that rifle, did it have a free floating handguard? If not, I can see why, because you are changing the pressure on the barrel.
I think that particular rifle had a free float tube but I could be wrong. It belongs to another shooter. My Wolf Pup has a 10.5 inch barrel and a Slim Line handguard and it shifts about 2 MOA. In both cases, the shift is upward
Monopodding doesn't place pressure on the handguard. It pushes against the receiver. It is well known that when a rifle is rested directly on a hard surface, the shots tend to go high
What's in a name? I've heard double tap, controlled pair, hammer pair (first time I've honestly heard of "hammer tap"), not all of which has been with the military. It doesn't really matter as long as you know what the heck you're supposed to be doing; whether your shots are with one sight-picture or two.
Nothing really but doing both drills back and forth, it's like someone saying clip instead of magazine.
Slightly off topic but I said "Mozambique drill" once and was told it was an insensitive term.
POI shift from supporting the gun on the mag is definitely NOT an issue.
The mag does not change pressure on the barrel.
Resting the gun on a hard surface does NOT push shots high.
Free float or not does not matter as it pertains to shooting off the mag.
I had a first round hit at 793 meters on a torso size target, shooting an HK416 with an Elcan Spectre DR 1-4, from the prone unsupported, mag touching ground.
POI shift from supporting the gun on the mag is definitely NOT an issue
That depends on your MOA requirements. 2 MOA at 100 yards can cause a miss when your target area is no bigger than a playing card
Resting the gun on a hard surface does NOT push shots high
I guess I'd better go downstairs and have a talk with some of my rifles and tell'm that, for over thirty years, they've been doing it wrong
It is not an issue, as it does not cause POI shift.
As for your shots impacting high when you rest your rifle on a hard surface, please explain the physics of it. How is using the mag different than a bipod? What if you are supporting the handguard directly on a barricade, and clamping down?
I'm sorry, but I don't see it. I have never seen it, shooting a variety of guns, from carbines, battle rifles and sniper rifles.
Would you care to explain how the center of the groups shot at 100 yards with the mag resting directly on the cement bench compared to groups fired with the forearm resting on a bag, on the same day with the same ammo from the same AR by the same shooter, impacted about 2 inches higher is NOT a shift in point of impact?
It's allowed/encouraged in current officer basic and in Infantry BOLC. If prone or circumstances where it makes sense.
Can't always do it, and in many cases it causes higher exposure/profile.
Exposure risk > mythical malf risk
An elbow rest is kinda adjustable. I can do it and hang the bottom of the magazine a 1/2" off the ground. Not a huge difference in height, but to me much more stable.
Would you care to explain how the center of the groups shot at 100 yards with the mag resting directly on the cement bench compared to groups fired with the forearm resting on a bag, on the same day with the same ammo from the same AR by the same shooter, impacted about 2 inches higher is NOT a shift in point of impact?
No, I cannot, as I wasn't there. It might be an issue caused by you shifting your body/head position in relation to the optic or sights between the two techniques.
Or, you might be saying that you only supported the gun via the mag, and did not use your support hand on the handguard - that makes it an unstable shooting position, as a hard on hard contact will slide around.
You still haven't explained the mechanics of your assertion. I have shot plenty, with my gun resting on the mag, with no detectable POI shift. That said, I still hold the handguard with my support hand, both elbows touching the ground.
You say that it pushes against the receiver, when supported by the mag. What force can the mag, that is held in place by basically nothing other than the mag catch - in the lower, possibly exert on the upper receiver? It does not push against or otherwise influence the upper. It does not affect the barrel or barrel nut. It is not physically possible.
You do not push the gun/magazine down into the ground with force.
You state it is well known. Then you should be able to explain what exactly causes the POI shift when shooting off of the mag. It is well known that influencing the barrel, or hand guard on a non-free float handguard will cause a POI shift. Never heard it stated regarding the mag - and I have shot enough to have seen it if it did occur.
Slightly off topic but I said "Mozambique drill" once and was told it was an insensitive term.
They may get my rebel flag (even though I never really cared), but they MAY NOT have my Mozambique.
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-01-15, 16:54
Is the shift there if the rounds are loaded its the pressure on the mag while the action cycles? Is the rounds bullet being affected because the mag is slightly off (nose down) because of the pressure.
Cagemonkey
11-01-15, 18:05
With the addition of improved magazine followers for GI mags, a new generation of polymer magazines and M4 type feed ramps, I think it makes sense that the Magazine Monopod reliability issue is no longer a concern.
Would you care to explain how the center of the groups shot at 100 yards with the mag resting directly on the cement bench compared to groups fired with the forearm resting on a bag, on the same day with the same ammo from the same AR by the same shooter, impacted about 2 inches higher is NOT a shift in point of impact?
For a long time we allowed recruits to use sand bags in the prone position to zero at 100 yards. Once we took the sand bags away, we noticed a significant shift in POI and had to make sight adjustments.
echo5whiskey
11-01-15, 20:26
For a long time we allowed recruits to use sand bags in the prone position to zero at 100 yards. Once we took the sand bags away, we noticed a significant shift in POI and had to make sight adjustments.
Even with irons, I think it has much more to do with how your eyes view the sights vs. the mag playing that big of a part. When you change your body position behind the rifle, your head will have to change angle as well (even if it is minutely). That, in turn, will affect how you see your sights.
Even with irons, I think it has much more to do with how your eyes view the sights vs. the mag playing that big of a part. When you change your body position behind the rifle, your head will have to change angle as well (even if it is minutely). That, in turn, will affect how you see your sights.
That's possible. Usually the POI would shift down roughly 2 MOA after we took the sand bags away. If the recruit rested their arm on the sandbag instead of the carbine handguard the POI may not shift.
If we had 25 students on the line at least 20 of them would have to make a sight adjustment after we took the sandbags.
KalashniKEV
11-02-15, 05:36
As in the days of the M14, BAR? Did it have merit to it then?
If that's the case, it's probably another one of those things that gets passed down through the generations of service-members, even though it's irrelevant.
The reason why the Army did it that way was because it was 20/ Foxhole supported, 20/ Prone unsupported to qual. It was supposed to be more difficult for trainees, but then they realized that once they created a standard, every person of every rank was stuck with it for their entire career.
The reason why it got started was because they needed some practical reason to state why it should not be done.
It's allowed/encouraged in current officer basic and in Infantry BOLC.
It changed in 2007 when AWG revised the curriculum.
http://archive.armytimes.com/article/20080504/NEWS/805040329/Weapons-training-qualification-overhauled
Here are three shooting tips trainers are stressing as part of Fort Benning's new approach to marksmanship:
1. Rest your magazine on the ground when shooting from the prone. This goes against years of training guidance that said this would lead to ammunition feeding problems. Not true, say professional shooters. If your weapon jams, something else is causing it. Resting the magazine on the ground while in the prone steadies the weapon as well as any sandbag, without harming the magazine or the weapon's cycling of rounds.
Slightly off topic but I said "Mozambique drill" once and was told it was an insensitive term.
...and the "Indian Run" should now be referred to as the "Last Man Up Drill."
Ive actually had a failure using the mag as a monopod, was a gen1 noveske "ffl" lower with a gen 3 pmag if I recall correctly.
I think it was a lower spec problem because it was fixed shortly after.
I had a former ranger who taught pre-deployment m4 training in the AF tell me the mag monopod thing, but he also told us to hold it at the magazine well. He was an older dude.
We saw resistance to the technique as well, when we switched from the G3 to the HK416, from older guys who had bad experiences with the flimsy aluminum G3 mags.
...and the "Indian Run" should now be referred to as the "Last Man Up Drill."
You know I could see people getting all upset if it was derogatory, but it isn't - it actually pays a compliment to the stamina of the Native American Warrior.
I once had a conversation with a lady at a table collecting signatures on a petition to outlaw high school teams using terms such as 'Indians' 'Redskins' and 'Warriors.' I asked her if she thought the parents would really want to name their kids sports teams after something they despised and felt was derogatory. She said she'd never thought of it that way and understood why I wouldn't sign the petition. I'm not sure I convinced her of anything, but we had a civil conversation.
Larry Vickers
11-02-15, 14:03
We always rested the magazine on the ground when I was in Delta - only every saw an issue one time. Guy took the M4 to the arms room and got a new carbine - they were sharp enough to know depending on the terrain you were prone in you would not be able to guarantee NOT resting your mag on the ground. I'm sure in the Army at least if not Military wide this myth was debunked by Delta members spreading the word; without question that is where AWG got it
Also I've never had an issue with my AR style rifle shooting high when on a hard surface - I'd would look into different reasons why this might be happening
And without question if the fore end is not free floating and you rest it in bags vs the magazine monopod you will see a different point of impact - the barrel/receiver joint In a standard AR or M4 is not ideal ( this is why HK lengthened it in the 416) so pressure applied out front without a free float hand guard will get you a different impact point due to different barrel harmonics
KalashniKEV
11-02-15, 14:28
I'm sure in the Army at least if not Military wide this myth was debunked by Delta members spreading the word; without question that is where AWG got it.
Respectfully, I think everybody already knew it.
Plenty of conventional Infantry leaders know their weapons, and knew that this was not an issue.
It's self evident, and easily tested and proven. In fact it was frequently a topic for discussion, although every time it came up there was little if any debate.
Too often we assume that the harder way automatically equals the higher standard.
If there is no practical aspect, then "the hard way" is not just harder, but also leads to sub optimal results vs. the easy way.
AWG's contribution was working with the schoolhouse to get it down on paper and make it holy.
Larry Vickers
11-02-15, 18:35
Respectfully, I think everybody already knew it.
Plenty of conventional Infantry leaders know their weapons, and knew that this was not an issue.
It's self evident, and easily tested and proven. In fact it was frequently a topic for discussion, although every time it came up there was little if any debate.
Too often we assume that the harder way automatically equals the higher standard.
If there is no practical aspect, then "the hard way" is not just harder, but also leads to sub optimal results vs. the easy way.
AWG's contribution was working with the schoolhouse to get it down on paper and make it holy.
That may be but without question when Delta blessed off on it that's when it became good to go
Just like with red dot sights, free float rail systems, IR lasers, modified uniforms, helmet mounted night vision goggles. Etc., etc., etc.
Those came from one place and it wasn't the infantry ......
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