View Full Version : Why did the LEO flip girl out of hr chair? (Supplement Angle)
Now THIS you all have to see to believe. No, it's not an SNL skit, it's just the media failing at its job of doing any research or fact checking before going live, and showing usual zero journalistic integrity in search of ratings... Now you know why the cop flipped the girl out of the chair! I really hope the officer is not attempting to use creatine as an excuse and it's just the media BS at work here. If the officer is trying to blame creatine, then he's an idiot too. Ugh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO0QCQF97uM
Averageman
11-01-15, 08:26
I dunno maybe it was the two punches to his head that little turd threw that were edited out of the video shown?
As a former Teacher I would have asked the class to leave the room as soon as the Officer showed up at the door. Wanna bet she would have been happy to comply once she knew that no one else could watch her play stupid games and there would be no witnesses?
I dunno maybe it was the two punches to his head that little turd threw that were edited out of the video shown?
As a former Teacher I would have asked the class to leave the room as soon as the Officer showed up at the door. Wanna bet she would have been happy to comply once she knew that no one else could watch her play stupid games and there would be no witnesses?
Indeed. I'd hope he is not actually attempting to blame creatine for his actions (right or wrong) and it's media BS. Personally, from the fact patterns I know of, she wanted to play non compliant adult and was treated as such. However, if the officer is indeed attempting to shift blame to "creatine rage" than my support for him drops by a wide margin.
Averageman
11-01-15, 09:08
Indeed. I'd hope he is not actually attempting to blame creatine for his actions (right or wrong) and it's media BS. Personally, from the fact patterns I know of, she wanted to play non compliant adult and was treated as such. However, if the officer is indeed attempting to shift blame to "creatine rage" than my support for him drops by a wide margin.
Creatine Rage?
That is a wild jump from what I saw, let's hope that isn't the route this is going.
I'm not sure where they got this information or why the media chose to run with this angle, but if you look at the cop and then look at the reporter telling the story, which one would you want showing up at a fight to help you?
I really would prefer that this Cop shut up and just let the Union handle this issue. I'm pretty sure he could have his job back if an unedited version of this was shown.
Creatine Rage?
That is a wild jump from what I saw, let's hope that isn't the route this is going.
I'm not sure where they got this information or why the media chose to run with this angle, but if you look at the cop and then look at the reporter telling the story, which one would you want showing up at a fight to help you?
I really would prefer that this Cop shut up and just let the Union handle this issue. I'm pretty sure he could have his job back if an unedited version of this was shown.
Yup. 2015, and he and or the media really going to go with creatine rage?! Holy chit Batman. As you said, he'd be much better off keeping his mouth shut.
Creatine rage......that's a new one.
Why are people so stupid? Uugghhh.
This just in : study shows having testicles or ovaries can induce rage.....outlaw them all.
I think that video looks a little worse than it is. The kid was likely combative and wanted to "be hard" and got a little chair ride.
If he wanted to beat the kid he would have.
But blaming creatine is lame and bespeaks his character. Could chair incident have gone better? Maybe. Gone worse? Most definitely.
I don't know anymore than what is reported but officer likely had attitude problems that eventually caught up to him and this was a good excuse to get him gone
Any time physical force is applied, it does not look good on video.
sevenhelmet
11-01-15, 10:27
The first time I saw it, I realized immediately how much strength she was using in resisting. It's only because the LEO is standing that it looks "bad".
What a crock.
It's Inside Edition. It's a televised version of the tabloids.
Creatine rage, un yeah, whatever. They, media outlets, are looking for anything possible to pin on this guy including video of him deadlifting. Such a crock of shit.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-01-15, 11:08
Justified force and excessive force have one thing in common: violence. Force amounts to violence, and it neither looks good nor feels good to have it applied on one's self.
If my father found out a police officer had to flip me out of my chair to extract me from the classroom (whether or not I struck the officer first) he would likely show me the difference between excessive and justified force.
Creatine rage? Jesus.
Any time physical force is applied, it does not look good on video.
A pat on the head and a hand shake looks much better no doubt :cool:
Not using the officer as an example, but this is why in a lot of civilized areas they try to get away from the whole towering, muscle-bound white guy for recruitment. Skinny dudes, females, and other such diversity hires are preferred because seeing a larger stronger man intimidates people and "looks bad".
That video didn't bother me. Kid showed his ass and got their ass shown back to them. I saw no hard hands, merely restraint.
What did bother me was blaming creatine. That shows a lack of ethics that he did not agree with his own actions.
Anyways....lunk alarming the police will lead to shitsticks being cockier because seeing some larger officer putting a piece of shit belly down automatically gets all the usual people up in arms
I'm not saying people should go all ED 209, but the sad fact is the only "violence" people see is on TV.
Yes, 14 year old girls can be a physical threat. They will find something to stab you with, hence files and hair picks. Sometimes they may need to go bellydown.
There are, real talk, black males who look and act older than they are
There are 15 year old black males who look 25, are 6 foot easy, and will fight like a grown man...or try to. All people hear is "Officer assaults 15 year old" and the parent(s) give the news a picture of the kid at age 8. Not where he has tattoos, flashing gang signs, or playing with a gun.
Too real for most people and a lot of inconvenient truths that A: Yes, you do want the biggest, reasonable you can get and B: Sometimes as siren Aaliyah famously sang, age ain't nothing but a number.
I don't see a 16 year old "gentle giant", I see an adult sized person undertaking adult actions and we'll figure it all out once the threat is subdued which court and detention center to place them in.
Averageman
11-01-15, 12:22
I don't see a 16 year old "gentle giant", I see an adult sized person undertaking adult actions and we'll figure it all out once the threat is subdued which court and detention center to place them in.
Years ago they had "Boys Schools" and "Girls Schools" for little juvenile delinquents who were unable to behave at a "normal" High School. These places looked similar to a Prison and there was a reason for that. Not everyone can or will behave.
Education and the "System" has done away with those sorts of places and now those kids are in the classroom with your kids.
They have a whole bunch of reasons to place these "Emotionally Disturbed" kids in to a special category, but in the end they may end up sitting next to your 16 year old daughter in every one of her classes.
They usually come from F'ed up Families, so discussing anything with Mom is pretty enlightening and Dad, well he just aint gonna be there.
I know of some pretty sick specific incidents, but my favorite personal one was looking up the local pervert directory and finding four of my former students. They were all registered pedophiles and they were more than likely all together at the time it went down.
Yep. This whole Section 8ing of the classroom can be traumatic.
Putting a piece of shit in with decent kids doesn't make him smarter. It makes other kids not want to go to school.
It isn't like that show Head of the Class where Lamondre 'learns differently' and has hidden depths. Lamondre has probably decided around age 8 or 10 that he was going to be totally worthless. That anyone who was civil or easygoing was a 'punkass bitch'. And that because of his 'thug life' he was entitled to do whatever he wanted and if caught the system was 'racist'.
No he does not need to be in class with a 16 year old, college prep girl or guy. He needs strict supervision and to be held to task. If unteachable; expelled.
And some might say his ass whipped real good until he learned right from wrong, but thankfully we are beyond such barbaric ways
creatine side effects:
1. Water retention
2. Dumbassery
creatine side effects:
1. Water retention
2. Dumbassery
Hey, I resemble that comment!
I dunno maybe it was the two punches to his head that little turd threw that were edited out of the video shown?
Do you have a link to the unedited video?
Now, if that were your own kid not listening to you, and you flipped them on their head and tossed them, the cop would be arresting you.
Averageman
11-01-15, 17:14
Do you have a link to the unedited video?
Now, if that were your own kid not listening to you, and you flipped them on their head and tossed them, the cop would be arresting you.
It's out there, I saw it first on the day this hit the News. Sorry I don't have a link handy, but the first punch is thrown and connects and he then put hands on her, the second is a half heated attempt once he had control of her upper body, but it too connects at about the Officers ear.
Yeah they were far from effective punches, but still until She escalated by throwing those punches she could have simply walked out the door.
Here you go,..http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sheriff-says-third-video-shows-south-carolina-student-punching-officer-n452481
In the third video viewed by police, Lott said, it shows the girl hitting the officer in the head once he puts his hands on her: "There's no question about that."
The female student in the video as well as a second student — identified as Niya Kenny — was arrested for "contributing to the chaos," Lott added.
Kenny told NBC News on Tuesday that she saw the officer put his arm around her classmate's neck, which is when she tried to hit him.
"I don't even think her fist made contact with him — she tried to," Kenny said.
Kenny, who admits that she was "using a few F-bombs" during the confrontation, said Fields is known in the school for being physical.
I dunno. How many of us here of a certain age, showed our asses just enough to piss off a parent as a punk kid and got a whipping that would be considered by today's standards child abuse, and became better people for it?
Creatine Rage?
That is a wild jump from what I saw, let's hope that isn't the route this is going.
I'm not sure where they got this information or why the media chose to run with this angle, but if you look at the cop and then look at the reporter telling the story, which one would you want showing up at a fight to help you?
I really would prefer that this Cop shut up and just let the Union handle this issue. I'm pretty sure he could have his job back if an unedited version of this was shown.
No Union. Unless he is FOP or PBA we will be paying for a lawyer to.
A pat on the head and a hand shake looks much better no doubt :cool:
I am certain she would have complied and left the room using this approach.
I am certain she would have complied and left the room using this approach.
Works every time....
This is outrageous. You punch a cop in the face twice. The officer flops you on the ground and people say the officer did something wrong. Complete BS!
come on we all know its global warming that has caused this to happen
Here you go,..http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...fficer-n452481
In the third video viewed by police, Lott said, it shows the girl hitting the officer in the head once he puts his hands on her: "There's no question about that."
Now I see it. After he wrapped his arm around her neck... I thought you meant her punches started the physical altercation.
Averageman
11-02-15, 06:28
Now I see it. After he wrapped his arm around her neck... I thought you meant her punches started the physical altercation.
Look for the video, what was written didn't seem to be my first impression. She seemed eager to take a swing and escalate.
Look for the video, what was written didn't seem to be my first impression. She seemed eager to take a swing and escalate.
Seems a complete vid when it when physical and a good angle:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/28/us/south-carolina-school-arrest-videos/
She attempts a few lame shots at him (claims she hurt her hand!) when he decides hes had enough of her nonsense and is clearly not going to come without some force. The vid also shows her floor dump was pretty controlled by the LEO. It's interesting to note the chief in this vid actually points out she has to share the blame (how PC can you get?) but officer should have used other pain compliance techniques. Maybe the LEOs here could comment on what pain compliance techniques could been employed there.
In my view, nothing that LEO could have used would have been viewed as anything but excessive by some short of an ice cream and pat on the head. Best thing the school and PD could have done was stood behind that LEO even if on the back side they discussed different approaches to physically removing a student as "lessons learned" from this event afterward.
What is nice to see is many of the student support that LEO and they protested. So, some good kids you "get it" do exist at least. See:
RICHLAND COUNTY, South Carolina -- A group of Spring Valley High School students walked out of class Friday morning, peacefully protesting the firing of school-resource officer Ben Fields.
Fields, a Richland County Sheriff’s Department deputy, was fired Wednesday after video surfaced of him forcibly removing a Spring Valley student from a classroom Monday.
“They said, ‘Bring back Fields.’ Everybody was saying that,” Spring Valley senior Ty’Juan Fulton, 18, said of the former deputy.
Plans for Friday’s demonstration were hatched on social media and by word of mouth, said Fulton, a football player.
Fields also was a coach for the Spring Valley football team.
A racially diverse group of about 100 students gathered in Spring Valley’s atrium about 10 a.m. Friday to express their opinions about Fields’ firing, which followed Sheriff Leon Lott’s condemnation of the deputy’s actions.
The protest was “an orderly student-led activity,” Spring Valley principal Jeff Temoney said in an email. “Our students and our staff were safe.
“I addressed the students to let them know that we understood their need to make their voices heard,” Temoney said. “Then, I reminded them that Spring Valley High is all about the business of teaching and learning, so it’s time to go back to class.”
The protest lasted about 10 minutes. But it brought more national attention to the high school, as Richland 2 school district leaders await the outcome of a civil-rights investigation into Monday’s incident.
Fields is white, and the student he removed from the class and arrested is African-American.
An advocacy group for black parents said Friday it plans to continue to pressure the district to improve its policies dealing with how school-resource officers interact with students.
Cont:
http://www.officer.com/news/12132994/students-stage-walkout-in-support-of-fired-deputy
Voodoochild
11-02-15, 07:45
I will probably take some flack for this but she isn't African-American. She is an American period. And anyone with any sort of proper upbringing knows when an Officer asks you to do something like exit stage left you exit stage left. You don't act like a cunt and take swings at him. She put herself in that situation by acting the way she did not only to the officer but the teacher and fellow students as well.
Seems a complete vid when it when physical and a good angle:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/28/us/south-carolina-school-arrest-videos/
She attempts a few lame shots at him (claims she hurt her hand!) when he decides hes had enough of her nonsense and is clearly not going to come without some force. The vid also shows her floor dump was pretty controlled by the LEO. It's interesting to note the chief in this vid actually points out she has to share the blame (how PC can you get?) but officer should have used other pain compliance techniques. Maybe the LEOs here could comment on what pain compliance techniques could been employed there.
In my view, nothing that LEO could have used would have been viewed as anything but excessive by some short of an ice cream and pat on the head. Best thing the school and PD could have done was stood behind that LEO even if on the back side they discussed different approaches to physically removing a student as "lessons learned" from this event afterward.
What is nice to see is many of the student support that LEO and they protested. So, some good kids you "get it" do exist at least. See:
RICHLAND COUNTY, South Carolina -- A group of Spring Valley High School students walked out of class Friday morning, peacefully protesting the firing of school-resource officer Ben Fields.
Fields, a Richland County Sheriff’s Department deputy, was fired Wednesday after video surfaced of him forcibly removing a Spring Valley student from a classroom Monday.
“They said, ‘Bring back Fields.’ Everybody was saying that,” Spring Valley senior Ty’Juan Fulton, 18, said of the former deputy.
Plans for Friday’s demonstration were hatched on social media and by word of mouth, said Fulton, a football player.
Fields also was a coach for the Spring Valley football team.
A racially diverse group of about 100 students gathered in Spring Valley’s atrium about 10 a.m. Friday to express their opinions about Fields’ firing, which followed Sheriff Leon Lott’s condemnation of the deputy’s actions.
The protest was “an orderly student-led activity,” Spring Valley principal Jeff Temoney said in an email. “Our students and our staff were safe.
“I addressed the students to let them know that we understood their need to make their voices heard,” Temoney said. “Then, I reminded them that Spring Valley High is all about the business of teaching and learning, so it’s time to go back to class.”
The protest lasted about 10 minutes. But it brought more national attention to the high school, as Richland 2 school district leaders await the outcome of a civil-rights investigation into Monday’s incident.
Fields is white, and the student he removed from the class and arrested is African-American.
An advocacy group for black parents said Friday it plans to continue to pressure the district to improve its policies dealing with how school-resource officers interact with students.
Cont:
http://www.officer.com/news/12132994/students-stage-walkout-in-support-of-fired-deputy
There are lots of other pain compliance techniques. A wrist lock is one of the most often used. You can also use pain compliance by placing the blade of your hand under someones nose and a hand on the back of the head. You push up under the nose. That will get someone up on their toes. I've only done that in the classroom. When it's "On" a take down to the ground is what most officers I know would do. It is what I would do. The officer should be judged on the reasonableness of the force used. He has no obligation to use a particular technique. The force used must be "Objectively Reasonable" we used to have a ladder of force. We don't do that anymore. It's more like a wheel. If you use a reasonable level of force the technique you use should not matter. The student was actively resisting arrest. His choice of a take down was reasonable.
http://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enforcement/officer-safety/use-of-force/pages/continuum.aspx
The Use-of-Force Continuum
Most law enforcement agencies have policies that guide their use of force. These policies describe a escalating series of actions an officer may take to resolve a situation. This continuum generally has many levels, and officers are instructed to respond with a level of force appropriate to the situation at hand, acknowledging that the officer may move from one part of the continuum to another in a matter of seconds.
An example of a use-of-force continuum follows:
Officer Presence — No force is used. Considered the best way to resolve a situation.
The mere presence of a law enforcement officer works to deter crime or diffuse a situation.
Officers' attitudes are professional and nonthreatening.
Verbalization — Force is not-physical.
Officers issue calm, nonthreatening commands, such as "Let me see your identification and registration."
Officers may increase their volume and shorten commands in an attempt to gain compliance. Short commands might include "Stop," or
"Don't move."
Empty-Hand Control — Officers use bodily force to gain control of a situation.
Soft technique. Officers use grabs, holds and joint locks to restrain an individual.
Hard technique. Officers use punches and kicks to restrain an individual.
Less-Lethal Methods — Officers use less-lethal technologies to gain control of a situation.
(See Deciding When and How to Use Less-Lethal Devices. )
Blunt impact. Officers may use a baton or projectile to immobilize a combative person.
Chemical. Officers may use chemical sprays or projectiles embedded with chemicals to restrain an individual (e.g., pepper spray).
Conducted Energy Devices (CEDs). Officers may use CEDs to immobilize an individual. CEDs discharge a high-voltage, low-amperage jolt of electricity at a distance.
Lethal Force — Officers use lethal weapons to gain control of a situation. Should only be used if a suspect poses a serious threat to the officer or another individual.
Officers use deadly weapons such as firearms to stop an individual's actions.
There are lots of other pain compliance techniques. A wrist lock is one of the most often used. You can also use pain compliance by placing the blade of your hand under someones nose and a hand on the back of the head. You push up under the nose. That will get someone up on their toes. I've only done that in the classroom. When it's "On" a take down to the ground is what most officers I know would do. It is what I would do. The officer should be judged on the reasonableness of the force used. He has no obligation to use a particular technique. The force used must be "Objectively Reasonable" we used to have a ladder of force. We don't do that anymore. It's more like a wheel. If you use a reasonable level of force the technique you use should not matter. The student was actively resisting arrest. His choice of a take down was reasonable.
.
Thanx for the intel. From what you have seen, do you feel his response met that criteria? The fired him for supposedly not following their SOP.
Those that won't behave in class are encouraged to keep misbehaving when cops are fired for reasons like this.
We're going to see a lot more of this.
It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out.
If I was a cop, I sure as hell wouldn't be a school cop.
Those that won't behave in class are encouraged to keep misbehaving when cops are fired for reasons like this.
We're going to see a lot more of this.
Where do you think this stems from? I still contend if the same actions had been taken by a parent that they would've had CPS called on them and been arrested, by the police. Since the option of physically discipling the child has basically been taken away from parents, by the state, how do you think the children are going to react to an "authority figure"? They have no fear of reprisal in terms of being disciplined. They're not afraid of their parents cause they can't do shit without the fear of being put in handcuffs themselves. I don't think the state should have more rights concerning disciplining a child than the actual parent does.
Look at the root cause. Johnny gets an ass beating for being a disrespectful little shit, and the cops come take Johnny's daddy away, so it doesn't happen anymore. The state, and the police, have hamstrung parents when it comes to putting a little fear into their hellyuns.
What laws cover something like this anyway? Was she required by law to follow his commands? Where his commands lawful? Was she committing a crime? What law states that he can assault her if she fails to follow his commands?
Thanx for the intel. From what you have seen, do you feel his response met that criteria? The fired him for supposedly not following their SOP.
I do not see a problem with what the Deputy did. It looks reasonable to me.
http://www.mapunion.org/PDFs/Graham.pdf
I don't know what SOP he is accused of violating. Years ago we were taught to use the “least amount of force necessary.” This should have been changed in policy following the Gram v. Connor Decision. They may not have updated their policy but this is a decision from 1989 and should have made it into policy long ago. The Sheriff states in a video interview the student refused to follow school rules, teacher and administrators instructions. The Deputy is called in she refuses to listen to him, physically resisted him and hit him.
He did not strike her with his fists, or a baton. He did not pepper spray her or use a Taser. He took her to the ground into a prone handcuffing position and arrested her. He did it quickly and fairly efficiently. It looks ugly because it is ugly. That does not make it wrong. He used a reasonable amount of force to make an arrest.
I do not think the Deputy did anything wrong. Grahm v. Connor specifically states the actions should not be viewed with 20/20 hindsight but with what the officer saw and knew at the time they took action.
In Graham v. Connor (1989), the U.S. Supreme Court answered these questions. The Supreme Court ruled that police use of force must be “objectively reasonable”—that an officer's actions were reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances confronting him, without regard to his underlying intent or motivation.
This is a good quick read:
http://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/1271618-How-to-ensure-use-of-force-is-reasonable-and-necessary-and-avoid-claims-of-excessive-force/
There are lots of videos out there. This shows the officer calmly walking up to the desk, and putting his hand on her wrist. https://youtu.be/Tq4BR5KHuqA She resists, escalating the situation. In this cut of the video I can not hear what is being said.
Watching a different video I hear the Deputy saying I need you to come with me and I can not hear the rest. This is as he walks up to her desk. Prior to touching her.
We have Officer Presence, Verbal Commands, an attempt at a soft escort when he takes hold of her wrist. When she pulls back he tries again. He looks like he tries to pick her up out of the chair, she hits him and he throws her and the desk to the ground and pulls her from the desk while arresting her. Once he has her on the ground in a prone handcuffing position he continues to speak calmly and tells her to put her hands behind her back.
The Deputy is responding to the student and her actions. SHE Caused the problem, not the Deputy.
In this video it looks like he is trying to pick her up and pull her out of the desk and she is actively resisting.
https://youtu.be/UgH5R07MWv0
What laws cover something like this anyway? Was she required by law to follow his commands? Where his commands lawful? Was she committing a crime? What law states that he can assault her if she fails to follow his commands?
I agree the problem started years ago and likely at home.
I can see several charges.
Trespassing, she was told to leave by a school administrator and a deputy.
Disorderly Conduct would cover the fighting with the deputy.
Resisting Arrest and Assault are also options. They are all minor offenses here in VT.
The US Supreme Court in Graham v. Connor 1989 covers use of force for LE.
It is impossible to have a rule that covers every possible situation. I’ve never had to deal with this exact situation. She hits the deputy as she is getting tipped over in the chair.
Q) Was the deputy there lawfully?
A) Yes.
Q) Did he give her a lawful order?
A) Yes.
Q) Did she refuse to follow his lawful order?
A) Yes.
Q) Did she actively resist his attempt to physically remove her?
A) Yes.
I agree the problem started years ago and likely at home.
A brat @ 5, is intolerable @ 10, is uncontrollable @ 15 and is in jail before 20. You gotta cut the weed before it grows.
Secondarily if you don't teach your kids the mantra "You might beat the wrap but you won't beat the ride." You're doing them a disservice. If you feel the police are wronging you in some way, STFU and we'll deal with it using an attorney later. Resisting the cops is just gonna get you a butt whooping on top of the original wrong....
I don't know what SOP he is accused of violating. Years ago we were taught to use the “least amount of force necessary.” This should have been changed in policy following the Gram v. Connor Decision. They may not have updated their policy but this is a decision from 1989 and should have made it into policy long ago. The Sheriff states in a video interview the student refused to follow school rules, teacher and administrators instructions. The Deputy is called in she refuses to listen to him, physically resisted him and hit him.
He did not strike her with his fists, or a baton. He did not pepper spray her or use a Taser. He took her to the ground into a prone handcuffing position and arrested her. He did it quickly and fairly efficiently. It looks ugly because it is ugly. That does not make it wrong. He used a reasonable amount of force to make an arrest.
I do not think the Deputy did anything wrong. Grahm v. Connor specifically states the actions should not be viewed with 20/20 hindsight but with what the officer saw and knew at the time they took action.
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The excuse being used for firing officer Fields is that he didn't follow protocol. Obviously, it's BS to allow chief to throw Fields under the bus and avoid negative PR. But:
Richland County Sheriff Leon Lott said the internal investigation involved whether Senior Deputy Fields followed protocol when asked to remove the student from the classroom at about 11 a.m. Monday.
He did not, Lott said.
Any criminal charges against Fields would come from the FBI and the U.S. Justice Department, Lott said. He asked them to investigate on Monday, and the agencies announced Tuesday they had opened an investigation into Fields’ actions.
Lott said the student was on her cellphone and refused to participate in class. He said she was asked by a teacher, and then by an administrator, to leave the classroom but didn’t. That’s when Fields was called and asked to remove her, Lott said.
Lott said Wednesday that the teacher and the administrator said they didn’t think the deputy used excessive force.
Still, Lott said, Fields did not follow protocol, making the decision to fire him clear.
When he threw her across the room, that’s when I made my decision. Sheriff Leon Lott
“Deputy Fields did wrong,” Lott said. “... When he threw her across the room, that’s when I made my decision.”
Cont:
http://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article41674731.html
So the first question I'd like answered was 'why' was the officer using force. Was he using it to protect himself from harm? Was he using it to effect an arrest?
The context of the force usage is important in determining objective reasonableness - if the officer is using force to protect himself he must have some apprehension of risk/danger proportional to the force employed.
As the Supremes said in Graham 'the test of reasonableness under the Fourth Amendment is not capable of precise definition or mechanical application, however, its proper application requires careful attention to the facts and circumstances of each particular case, including the severity of the crime at issue, whether the suspect poses an immediate threat to the safety of the officers or others, and whether he is actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight.'
This statement renders the 'mechanical' use of force continuum's, no matter how they are constructed, moot, they are a process of mechanical application.
In context this means that the objectively reasonable level of force an officer uses on a 92 year-old lady assaulting him with a cane, is probably, almost certainly, not as great as objectively reasonable force used on a 19 year-old assaulting the officer with the same cane.
No offense intended usmcvet, but this line of reasoning:
Q) Was the deputy there lawfully?
A) Yes.
Q) Did he give her a lawful order?
A) Yes.
Q) Did she refuse to follow his lawful order?
A) Yes.
Q) Did she actively resist his attempt to physically remove her?
A) Yes.
is too simplistic and formulaic based on Graham - it is a mechanical methodology.
One size does not fit all. The courts are sending the message that the societal expectation is that officers are more cerebral in their thought processes and tactics leading up to the use of force.
We can complain all we want, but it is what it is.
It looked to me like he was trying to remove her from the seat and remove her from class. Her own resistance is what made the seat dip. This is even if we don't consider the alleged blows she used against him conveniently not on video.
Let's be real, she's acting like a disruptive bitch. She likely sees pleas for decorum as weakness. She was not being compliant, conversant, or cooperative.
No, it doesn't look delicate but, honestly what could he have done? He didn't tase her, he did not use hard hands. His presence was not acknowledged nor were his verbal commands.
He couldn't just let her keep on because kids feed off disruption.
My only exception is the creatine spiel. He apparently didn't believe in his actions and is using this method. No.
If you have a physically unruly teenager who you cannot reason with but must remove from the scene, what would you do?
Try to guide her out. Okay, now she's resisting.
Realistically, what else could he have done?
More video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRxZMMS_21E
I agree one size does not fit all. I would say the force started, very low, and it was being used to make the arrest. When she started fighting it was to make the arrest and prevent being injured. This is a misdemeanor arrest. Most are. The deputy acted quickly. Injuries often occur after initial hands on attempts fail.
Graham ended up with broken bones. I don't see there being any injuries rising to that level here. They also detained him on suspicion a crime may have been committed when the officer witnessed suspicious activity. The way Graham was treated bothers me. The way this young woman was treated does not. I think the point is we don't have a perfect system but it looks like he followed the rules to me. It is easy to sit back and pick the actions apart with three videos. Even with the video it does not look like he used excessive force to me. The Rodney King decision said force was acceptable until King complied. There was at least one more kick and 5 baton strikes after compliance. That's where the problem was. This deputy used verbal commands followed by a low level of force and continued with verbal commands once she was on the floor.
I agree the problem started years ago and likely at home.
I can see several charges.
Trespassing, she was told to leave by a school administrator and a deputy.
Disorderly Conduct would cover the fighting with the deputy.
Resisting Arrest and Assault are also options. They are all minor offenses here in VT.
The US Supreme Court in Graham v. Connor 1989 covers use of force for LE.
It is impossible to have a rule that covers every possible situation. I’ve never had to deal with this exact situation. She hits the deputy as she is getting tipped over in the chair.
Q) Was the deputy there lawfully?
A) Yes.
Q) Did he give her a lawful order?
A) Yes.
Q) Did she refuse to follow his lawful order?
A) Yes.
Q) Did she actively resist his attempt to physically remove her?
A) Yes.
Thanks for the explanation.
Averageman
11-02-15, 17:16
http://abc7chicago.com/news/student-threatens-teacher-at-chicago-school-in-video/1064896/
Video shows a student at Chicago Vocational Career Academy threatening a substitute teacher in 2011.
In the video, a student verbally abuses the female teacher and then lifts a desk and threatens her with it. The teacher stays seated the entire time. CPS released a statement Monday, calling the video "unacceptable."
http://toprightnews.com/black-student-threatens-to-rape-white-teacher-what-black-administrators-do-is-disgraceful/
Black Student Threatens to Rape White Teacher …What Happens Next is Unbelievable
The racial divide in America continues to widen day after day, as liberal progressives press a narrative designed to pit Blacks and Whites against each other.
In our schools, White teachers are increasingly put at great risk of violence by race-baiters who refuse to do anything about increasing Black-on-White crimes in the classrooms. Top Right News has documented the alarming spike in such crimes this year alone (see below for citations).
But now, a White school teacher from Long Island is the victim not only of a Black student — but the very administrators she relies on to stand behind her — all because of race.
She’s been slapped with disciplinary charges after complaining about a Black student threatening to rape her.
Oh, and the school administration is all-Black, which I’m sure had nothing to do with the decision that was made.
Pattern???
I agree one size does not fit all. I would say the force started, very low, and it was being used to make the arrest. When she started fighting it was to make the arrest and prevent being injured. This is a misdemeanor arrest. Most are. The deputy acted quickly. Injuries often occur after initial hands on attempts fail.
Graham ended up with broken bones. I don't see there being any injuries rising to that level here. They also detained him on suspicion a crime may have been committed when the officer witnessed suspicious activity. The way Graham was treated bothers me. The way this young woman was treated does not. I think the point is we don't have a perfect system but it looks like he followed the rules to me. It is easy to sit back and pick the actions apart with three videos. Even with the video it does not look like he used excessive force to me. The Rodney King decision said force was acceptable until King complied. There was at least one more kick and 5 baton strikes after compliance. That's where the problem was. This deputy used verbal commands followed by a low level of force and continued with verbal commands once she was on the floor.
I'm not advocating that the deputy was wrong, quite frankly I think there were other ways to handle it, but I spend several hours each week talking about those ways - kind of like 'Father MacKensie writing the words to a sermon that no one will hear' LOL - he isn't me.
What I think we all need to understand is that the public perception of what is correct police conduct and what is not is changing. Google 'Police Executive Research Forum, Re-Engineering Training On the Police Use of Force' and read what the perceptions of 'respected' Chiefs, Sheriff's, Trainers in the executive police community are saying - I don't like much of it, I don't expect many officers will.
The Deputy in the video had no need to act immediately, she was causing no one harm. They have been several appellate course cases across the country which have put forth, in not granting officers qualified immunity, that officers are not justified to use force simply because they want to expeditiously handle a situation. While these cases are from some coo coo Circuits, and are not binding on other Circuits, those findings are instructive to other Circuit Courts and most often judges rule the way that a previous court ruled on the same issue, following a doctrine of precedent formally known as stare decisis.
Additionally, I think the teacher should have handled the situation better before calling the SRO, and the SRO should have intervened only if their was a violation of law - last I heard it wasn't a law to obey teachers and since the parents of this young princess have retained an attorney, I do believe that will cost the school district and the SO some money. It shouldn't, but once again, it is what it is.
In Graham the Court overturned a directed verdict dismissing the case, they did not say yeah for the officers, they remanded the case back to the lower courts to determine if a 4th Amendment violation had occurred. I do not know the outcome of that case. In essence Graham won Graham, much like Garner's family won Garner.
Rodney King was not police brutality, it was a terribly mismanaged use of force application. The jury found that the officers had not used excessive force, which was the start of the riots. A later Federal case resulted in convictions for Koon and Powell. King also won the civil case.
IF the officers had not began striking King as he tried to get up, instead waiting until he stood and began more aggression toward them, they would have been okay in my opinion, a new application of force would have been justified.
JMO
So the teacher should have handled it?
Wonderful.
This was likely not her first rodeo.
He was pretty calm and magnanimous at onset.
I would love to hear an alternative solution to this issue.
Waste a whole school day listening to her attitude?
Saying please 50 times in a row?
Bribery?
Interesting.
Averageman
11-02-15, 17:49
Perhaps Not???
Or is it something larger?
https://www.splcenter.org/20100901/suspended-education-urban-middle-schools-crisis
Figure 1 demonstrates that K-12 suspension rates have at least doubled since the early ’70s for all non-Whites. Equally noteworthy are the substantially different suspension rate increases experienced by racial/ethnic groups. The racial gap in suspension has grown considerably since 1973, especially for African-American students. In the 1970s Black students had a suspension rate of about 6% - twice the likelihood of suspension as White students (about 3%). With the advent of zero tolerance, Black children experienced a 9-point increase in suspension rates, from 6% in 1973 to 15% in 2006. Meanwhile the White suspension rate also grew, but gained less than 2 percentage points. The Black/White gap has grown from 3 percentage points in the ’70s to over 10 percentage points in the 2000s. Blacks are now over three times more likely than Whites to be suspended.
http://www.tolerance.org/magazine/number-43-spring-2013/school-to-prison
What is the School-to-Prison Pipeline?
Policies that encourage police presence at schools, harsh tactics including physical restraint, and automatic punishments that result in suspensions and out-of-class time are huge contributors to the pipeline, but the problem is more complex than that.
The school-to-prison pipeline starts (or is best avoided) in the classroom. When combined with zero-tolerance policies, a teacher’s decision to refer students for punishment can mean they are pushed out of the classroom—and much more likely to be introduced into the criminal justice system.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/04/09/12456/new-report-highlights-disproportionate-school-discipline-minorities
“Perhaps the most disturbing finding is that nationally, on average, 36 percent of black male students with disabilities enrolled in middle and high schools were suspended at least once in (the) 2009-2010 (academic year),” researchers wrote in their report, “
The study also found that across the nation, one in every four African-American students in secondary schools was suspended at least once in the 2009-2010 academic year. One in every five students with disabilities and one in every five English-language learners was also suspended, out of school, at least once. That’s compared to only one in 16 white students without disabilities receiving at least one suspension over the same time period.
Now if you can manage to maneuver through that progressive crap, please ask yourself is it a failure of an educational system or a failed culture that puts these kids at risk?
Creatine Rage Indeed.
If the deputy came in and Immediately flipped her out if the chair I'd say fire him. That's not what happened. You're right there was no immediate need to use force. It's also not what happened. He was called into the classroom and spoke politely to the kid. Told her she needed to leave with him. She refused. He tried to get her to leave again when he first touched her wrist. She pulled back. It looks like he tried to pick her up and it went down hill from there. Saying the officer caused it by rushing the situation doesn't cut it here. It makes sense if you have a suicidal person alone in a room or otherwise isolated to not move in and push the issue. Are they going to say she is an EDP? That would make this a different response in many jurisdictions. I've not heard she was an EDP (emotionally disturbed person)
I get frustrated by the calls from parents describing an out of control child. Often under 12 years old! It's very sad.
I'm not advocating that the deputy was wrong, quite frankly I think there were other ways to handle it, but I spend several hours each week talking about those ways - kind of like 'Father MacKensie writing the words to a sermon that no one will hear' LOL - he isn't me.
What I think we all need to understand is that the public perception of what is correct police conduct and what is not is changing. Google 'Police Executive Research Forum, Re-Engineering Training On the Police Use of Force' and read what the perceptions of 'respected' Chiefs, Sheriff's, Trainers in the executive police community are saying - I don't like much of it, I don't expect many officers will.
The Deputy in the video had no need to act immediately, she was causing no one harm. They have been several appellate course cases across the country which have put forth, in not granting officers qualified immunity, that officers are not justified to use force simply because they want to expeditiously handle a situation. While these cases are from some coo coo Circuits, and are not binding on other Circuits, those findings are instructive to other Circuit Courts and most often judges rule the way that a previous court ruled on the same issue, following a doctrine of precedent formally known as stare decisis.
Additionally, I think the teacher should have handled the situation better before calling the SRO, and the SRO should have intervened only if their was a violation of law - last I heard it wasn't a law to obey teachers and since the parents of this young princess have retained an attorney, I do believe that will cost the school district and the SO some money. It shouldn't, but once again, it is what it is.
In Graham the Court overturned a directed verdict dismissing the case, they did not say yeah for the officers, they remanded the case back to the lower courts to determine if a 4th Amendment violation had occurred. I do not know the outcome of that case. In essence Graham won Graham, much like Garner's family won Garner.
Rodney King was not police brutality, it was a terribly mismanaged use of force application. The jury found that the officers had not used excessive force, which was the start of the riots. A later Federal case resulted in convictions for Koon and Powell. King also won the civil case.
IF the officers had not began striking King as he tried to get up, instead waiting until he stood and began more aggression toward them, they would have been okay in my opinion, a new application of force would have been justified.
JMO
For the people who think the deputy acted inappropriately I have two questions:
1) How would you handle the situation differently? Obviously verbal direction did not work, what steps would you take to get
her to leave the classroom?
2) If she refused to comply with instruction to leave, how long would you wait to move on to the next step to remove her from the room using physical force?
Averageman
11-02-15, 20:18
For the people who think the deputy acted inappropriately I have two questions:
1) How would you handle the situation differently? Obviously verbal direction did not work, what steps would you take to get
her to leave the classroom?
2) If she refused to comply with instruction to leave, how long would you wait to move on to the next step to remove her from the room using physical force?
I don't disagree with what he did, but if I were the Teacher when he arrived I would have simply moved the rest of the Class in an orderly fashion to the Library.
The thought behind that being that there would be no cellphone drama and she and the Cop could work it out without an audience to be entertained or impressed.
I would have had her removed then without the possibility of the rest of the class participating in an BLM "Moment".
For the people who think the deputy acted inappropriately I have two questions:
1) How would you handle the situation differently? Obviously verbal direction did not work, what steps would you take to get
her to leave the classroom?
2) If she refused to comply with instruction to leave, how long would you wait to move on to the next step to remove her from the room using physical force?
Same question I asked and even found more video.
These types of kids do not respond to reason or civility. She wanted her scene and got one
Judging the video by its own merit, he did what he had to. He may well have been a pos officer any other day but then and there I saw nothing that would shock me.
The only thing I think he is off on is blaming creatine and feeding the belief he was out of order. No, he should've said nothing and gotten a PBA lawyer. The SE is right to work and people do get shitcanned for petty and typically stupid reasons.
If a dept didn't want to back me for doing my job, screw em.
I don't disagree with what he did, but if I were the Teacher when he arrived I would have simply moved the rest of the Class in an orderly fashion to the Library.
The thought behind that being that there would be no cellphone drama and she and the Cop could work it out without an audience to be entertained or impressed.
I would have had her removed then without the possibility of the rest of the class participating in an BLM "Moment".
I thought about how I may have handled the situation and considered having the rest of the class leave, so no one else is involved or injured in a physical confrontation.
As long as you are conducting yourself within policy, case law and sound judgment, you should not have any concerns about being video recorded. Without video evidence a Police Chief may terminate your employment for political reasons regardless of whether you were in the wrong or right. Video evidence supports those who do things correctly, by the numbers.
Even Video Evidence is "wrong" these days . Like the guy in Cincinnati who got dragged.
For the people who think the deputy acted inappropriately I have two questions:
1) How would you handle the situation differently? Obviously verbal direction did not work, what steps would you take to get
her to leave the classroom?
2) If she refused to comply with instruction to leave, how long would you wait to move on to the next step to remove her from the room using physical force?
I'm thinking he could have called for some stripes when she resisted. No imminent danger. He had to assume she was a minor even though she wasn't.
When you put it into perspective it was because she wouldn't get off a cell phone. He's the professional irrespective of her dumbassery.
Are they going to say she is an EDP? That would make this a different response in many jurisdictions. I've not heard she was an EDP (emotionally disturbed person)
I've read several reports (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-s-teen-assaulted-deputy-orphan-article-1.2414901) stating that the girl's mother and grandmother died in the past year and she's been in foster care. Not sure if that plays into her actions or not, but it's a distinct possibility, if the story is true.
So....the officer should've backed down and gotten another officer to try to remove her where she would've resisted harder?
This isn't a Kobayashi Maru.
I've read several reports (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-s-teen-assaulted-deputy-orphan-article-1.2414901) stating that the girl's mother and grandmother died in the past year and she's been in foster care. Not sure if that plays into her actions or not, but it's a distinct possibility, if the story is true.
Some of us had a rough childhood and didn't act up in school like the world owed us because our loved ones died.
Everybody has a sob story. No reason to get attitudes. She looked clean, sheltered, fed, and had a smart phone.
No little matchstick girl is she.
Re: There is no law...
In Texas there is law that states School Boards/Districts will develop and provide a code of conduct policy: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/ED/htm/ED.37.html
Long read.
Also highlight SUBCHAPTER C. LAW AND ORDER, Sec. 37.081. SCHOOL DISTRICT PEACE OFFICERS AND SECURITY PERSONNEL.
At the end of the day, this OFCs actions aren't holding up to public scrutiny. It's one of those points in the Ethics training class. Public scrutiny is harsh. The Public generally has very little perspective to understand why OFCs do the things they do or say the things they say. The Public just knows they're who the police "acted against", they either like it or they don't.
Moose-Knuckle
11-03-15, 00:22
http://abc7chicago.com/news/student-threatens-teacher-at-chicago-school-in-video/1064896/
Video shows a student at Chicago Vocational Career Academy threatening a substitute teacher in 2011.
In the video, a student verbally abuses the female teacher and then lifts a desk and threatens her with it. The teacher stays seated the entire time. CPS released a statement Monday, calling the video "unacceptable."
http://toprightnews.com/black-student-threatens-to-rape-white-teacher-what-black-administrators-do-is-disgraceful/
Black Student Threatens to Rape White Teacher …What Happens Next is Unbelievable
The racial divide in America continues to widen day after day, as liberal progressives press a narrative designed to pit Blacks and Whites against each other.
In our schools, White teachers are increasingly put at great risk of violence by race-baiters who refuse to do anything about increasing Black-on-White crimes in the classrooms. Top Right News has documented the alarming spike in such crimes this year alone (see below for citations).
But now, a White school teacher from Long Island is the victim not only of a Black student — but the very administrators she relies on to stand behind her — all because of race.
She’s been slapped with disciplinary charges after complaining about a Black student threatening to rape her.
Oh, and the school administration is all-Black, which I’m sure had nothing to do with the decision that was made.
Pattern???
Great post thanks for the links. I have posted this before but it fits as there are two threads now dealing with separate incidents of this nature.
My ex-wife is a public school teacher so I use to have a pretty good idea of their world hanging out with her coworkers and attending events, etc. The biggest "racist" one could ever hope to meet are older white female teachers that started out as brain washed liberals working in inner city schools "to make a difference". After years of physical assaults, sexual assaults, verbal abuse, intimidation, vandalized POVs, by their "victims of society" students AND sometimes their legal guardian(s), these former libtards have come to see things for what they are.
Moose-Knuckle
11-03-15, 00:24
These types of kids do not respond to reason or civility. She wanted her scene and got one
Judging the video by its own merit, he did what he had to. He may well have been a pos officer any other day but then and there I saw nothing that would shock me.
The only thing I think he is off on is blaming creatine and feeding the belief he was out of order. No, he should've said nothing and gotten a PBA lawyer. The SE is right to work and people do get shitcanned for petty and typically stupid reasons.
If a dept didn't want to back me for doing my job, screw em.
Precisely.
There is unfortunately a Race War at play here. Not everybody is involved, but the media certainly are, as are prolific public officials.
White people are fair game in the eyes of the Left.
This little piece of garbage was asked several times to get up and leave. She refused. Consequences followed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmP-KuHHMnI
The video clip that Will posted irked me big time. Creatine rage? What's next, Whey protein powder rage?
I really enjoyed the way he tossed her and her desk, and then dragged it across the floor like it was a toy. I'd buy that man a steak.
I've read several reports (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-s-teen-assaulted-deputy-orphan-article-1.2414901) stating that the girl's mother and grandmother died in the past year and she's been in foster care. Not sure if that plays into her actions or not, but it's a distinct possibility, if the story is true.
That is sad. I'm not sure it would make her a EDP.
Video usually helps. Not always. This one made me loose some faith in the system. This is from a few years ago in the Rutland, VT PD holding area. A woman pulls a knife on the cop seated at a booking computer and cuts his neck, she was AQUITTED and it is ALL ON VIDEO! "The jury delivered “not guilty” verdicts for attempted second-degree murder and the lesser charge of attempted aggravated assault with serious bodily injury." She WALKED! http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/7251371-Vt-woman-who-cut-officers-throat-acquitted-of-charges/
That is sad. I'm not sure it would make her a EDP.
Video usually helps. Not always. This one made me loose some faith in the system. This is from a few years ago in the Rutland, VT PD holding area. A woman pulls a knife on the cop seated at a booking computer and cuts his neck, she was AQUITTED and it is ALL ON VIDEO! "The jury delivered “not guilty” verdicts for attempted second-degree murder and the lesser charge of attempted aggravated assault with serious bodily injury." She WALKED! http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/7251371-Vt-woman-who-cut-officers-throat-acquitted-of-charges/
Wow! Can't see how anyone would acquit on that. Even if they bought the whole it was an escape attempt I didn't mean to cut him - proper instruction on the law should have resulted in a slam dunk on either charge - escape is a felony in Vermont, correct?
Hah.....I had a student try to attack another student with a pencil....
I separated them and called the office.
Mom whines to the school that my screaming at the kid hurt his feelings and I should not be in the classroom ever again.
Yesh.....the school gave me a verbal warning as I should have used a more nicer and calmer voice.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
Yesh.....the school gave me a verbal warning as I should have used a more nicer and calmer voice.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
"More nicer"? Really?
The ironies of life....
Hey, we can solve this problem...don't touch her, just show the classroom how a taser works...
You know, the butt-whoopin my daughter would get when she got home pales to what this officer did...and he 'tossed her across the room" to get her clear of the chair so he could cuff her...
ALL that has happened here is encouraged other delinquents to resist teacher/cops...
Moose-Knuckle
11-03-15, 15:42
You know, the butt-whoopin my daughter would get when she got home pales to what this officer did...and he 'tossed her across the room" to get her clear of the chair so he could cuff her...
It's all about perspective, I didn't see the LEO toss a student out of her desk. What I saw was a LEO who was called in after a teacher felt LE was needed and he assisted the female suspect to the ground for her safety.
ramairthree
11-03-15, 17:10
My threshold is pretty low to criticize LE for laughable tactics or over the top out of line actions.
I don't get the whole creatine angle,
But excluding that.
Kid did whatever and was told to leave room and they did not.
Principal came and told kid to leave room and they did not.
I suspect they got multiple requests to leave.
They requested officer come and remove kid.
Cop came and told kid to leave room and they did not.
I suspect he asked them more than once.
Cop went to escort kid and they resisted by locking legs around chair desk thing.
Cop pulled kid up off of chair thing and they swung at him and continued to resist.
Cop put kid on ground and cuffed them.
Exactly how are they the bad guy here?
It's not like they showed up at my house and put a beat down on me when I said they can't come in without a warrant or I was not volunteering to leave with them off my property unless under arrest. Or put lead in me while I was pumping gas.
My threshold is pretty low to criticize LE for laughable tactics or over the top out of line actions.
I don't get the whole creatine angle,
But excluding that.
Kid did whatever and was told to leave room and they did not.
Principal came and told kid to leave room and they did not.
I suspect they got multiple requests to leave.
They requested officer come and remove kid.
Cop came and told kid to leave room and they did not.
I suspect he asked them more than once.
Cop went to escort kid and they resisted by locking legs around chair desk thing.
Cop pulled kid up off of chair thing and they swung at him and continued to resist.
Cop put kid on ground and cuffed them.
Exactly how are they the bad guy here?
It's not like they showed up at my house and put a beat down on me when I said they can't come in without a warrant or I was not volunteering to leave with them off my property unless under arrest. Or put lead in me while I was pumping gas.
That's because there is none. It's either the officer attempting to pull a stunt to reduce blame, or the media just inventing stuff, or both.
My threshold is pretty low to criticize LE for laughable tactics or over the top out of line actions.
I don't get the whole creatine angle,
But excluding that.
Kid did whatever and was told to leave room and they did not.
Principal came and told kid to leave room and they did not.
I suspect they got multiple requests to leave.
They requested officer come and remove kid.
Cop came and told kid to leave room and they did not.
I suspect he asked them more than once.
Cop went to escort kid and they resisted by locking legs around chair desk thing.
Cop pulled kid up off of chair thing and they swung at him and continued to resist.
Cop put kid on ground and cuffed them.
Exactly how are they the bad guy here?
It's not like they showed up at my house and put a beat down on me when I said they can't come in without a warrant or I was not volunteering to leave with them off my property unless under arrest. Or put lead in me while I was pumping gas.
Blaming supplements is silly. Makes him look bad.
Irish when I pointed to the Graham v. Connor decision I didn't completely answer your question. In Vermont LE gets their authority from Title 24 VSA chapter 55. http://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/fullchapter/24/055 I'm sure it's very similar through out the country. I don't have a copy of my Oath Of Office, I've worked for a few agencies and it was always very similar. It is much like the oath many of us took when we joined the military. I get my authority from my municipality and the State of VT. I need to follow the VT and US Constitution. In most cases the rules in Vermont are more restrictive. http://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/constitution-of-the-state-of-vermont/
My 13 year old son asked me today if I'd seen "the video" I asked what video and he mentioned this one. They watch a CNN video each day at the beginning of their 8th grade History class. I asked what he thought and was pleasantly surprised by his take on it.
Now, if that were your own kid not listening to you, and you flipped them on their head and tossed them, the cop would be arresting you.
Where do you think this stems from? I still contend if the same actions had been taken by a parent that they would've had CPS called on them and been arrested, by the police. Since the option of physically discipling the child has basically been taken away from parents, by the state, how do you think the children are going to react to an "authority figure"? They have no fear of reprisal in terms of being disciplined. They're not afraid of their parents cause they can't do shit without the fear of being put in handcuffs themselves. I don't think the state should have more rights concerning disciplining a child than the actual parent does.
Look at the root cause. Johnny gets an ass beating for being a disrespectful little shit, and the cops come take Johnny's daddy away, so it doesn't happen anymore. The state, and the police, have hamstrung parents when it comes to putting a little fear into their hellyuns.
Nobody wants to address the elephant in the room? Or maybe I'm in left field... Police are able to slam children around and no one has an issue with it but if a parent does the same thing they'd have CPS called on them and the police would be putting the parent in handcuffs. If a child is spanked the CPS Gestapo will be called, and they will come, and they get a federal bonus for every child they seize and put into "protective custody."
Kids are taught at school to report any abusive behavior by their parents. Children have learned that they are in control by threatening to call CPS on their parents for any type of discipline. Society has made it possible for kids to have the upper hand over their parents and kids think this right also applies to teachers, school administrators, and SROs, people with police badges who maintain discipline with force and violence. Children quickly learn, as this girl did, that parents are constrained from using corporal punishment, SROs are not. The girl's desk was overturned as she sat in it. She was slammed onto the floor, dragged across the floor and handcuffed. Any parent who did that would be facing jail time. Period.
So, who is to blame?
Anyhow, enough time on this... Enjoy your day.
That poor, poor mistreated little girl.
Get real!
She's a nut case/drama queen who should be placed in reform school, where she can act out all she wants with devastating consequences.
Averageman
11-04-15, 15:06
That poor, poor mistreated little girl.
Get real!
She's a nut case/drama queen who should be placed in reform school, where she can act out all she wants with devastating consequences.
Don't worry about it by the time next year rolls around she will have quit school and have a litter of her own kids. She will be collecting welfare and no longer be a threat to our public schools...
for at least five years anyway;
Then the cycle begins repeating itself, as those Apples don't fall far from the Tree.
We need to start leaving kids behind
The officer used force to make an arrest. The deputy is a LEO empowered and entrusted with powers of arrest. It's apples and oranges. If you walked up to me and flipped me out of my chair at work that would be an assault. It the officer did it for no reason it would be an assault. He was making an arrest and is allowed to use reasonable force to make that arrest. What's the alternative? It all comes down to reasonableness. If the actions are reasonable there's no issue. When th actions are unreasonable there is a problem.
My kids get spanked. They're not abbused. There is a an enormous difference between a punnishment and abuse. I think more kids need a spankings. Not less!
The officer used force to make an arrest. The deputy is a LEO empowered and entrusted with powers of arrest. It's apples and oranges. If you walked up to me and flipped me out of my chair at work that would be an assault. It the officer did it for no reason it would be an assault. He was making an arrest and is allowed to use reasonable force to make that arrest. What's the alternative? It all comes down to reasonableness. If the actions are reasonable there's no issue. When th actions are unreasonable there is a problem.
My kids get spanked. They're not abbused. There is a an enormous difference between a punnishment and abuse. I think more kids need a spankings. Not less!
Many think his actions were unreasonable and hence have a problem with it. When asked what the alternatives were, they tend to remain silent or say "I don't know but that was the wrong thing to do"
Per usual, everyone an expert from their computer screen and years of LE work. This poor women...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a71IUZinSrM
SilverBullet432
11-04-15, 16:39
Steroids
Many think his actions were unreasonable and hence have a problem with it. When asked what the alternatives were, they tend to remain silent or say "I don't know but that was the wrong thing to do"
Per usual, everyone an expert from their computer screen and years of LE work. This poor women...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a71IUZinSrM
I hear you loud and clear. In this case the boss fired him. That's a pretty big consequence. I disagree but that doesn't really matter. I don't believe he has any criminal liability. He is screwed when they sue him. When they fired him he said loud and clear he is own in any civil suit.
I hear you loud and clear. In this case the boss fired him. That's a pretty big consequence. I disagree but that doesn't really matter. I don't believe he has any criminal liability. He is screwed when they sue him. When they fired him he said loud and clear he is own in any civil suit.
Can he sue the PD for wrongful termination? How does that work with an LEO and PD? My understanding is no union where he's at to help him/support him.
Can he sue the PD for wrongful termination? How does that work with an LEO and PD? My understanding is no union where he's at to help him/support him.
In VT Deputies are at will employees. Full time police officers have protection quite often from unions and also from Vermont Statue. Following a year of full time service an officer must be fired for cause. There statute requires a hearing and charges are presented. It's very fair.
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