View Full Version : Talk me into it - T2 or Sparc2
bigjack7440
11-08-15, 01:20
I can't for the life of me decide on what optic to buy. Here's what its going on and what it will be used for .
What it is - 14.5 BCM BFH ELW KMR upper
What it's for - Home defense / range
The weapon has good parts as in
Lower- Mega Arms billet
Trigger - SSA-E
Light -Inforce WML ( decent )
Safety - BAD 45*
So you can kinda see it's not the baddest weapon system out there but it's not built with el cheap o parts .
The money - yeh I got the money that's not the issue
The issue is I could Use that $730 else where - could use that money on some parts for my 308 or also buy a new colt 1911 with $200 more etc .
My options are - T2 / larue combo
Vortex sparc2
These are the 2 I'm set on . Both micro and not like say the Aimpont pro witch I know someone will say get that but I want to stay lightweight as that's what I'm trying to do is keep the system light weight .
The T2 is a good bit lighter than the Sparc2 , I think by 3 or 4oz and that's the weight of another optic .
The reason I'm hung up on the Sparc2 is I ordered one for my best friends new build I finished 2 weeks ago and he wanted and nice optic but he did not have $730 for T2 combo . And after I read the review of the sparc2 in Recoil I just had to try it and what better way than to recommend it to my buddy . Turns out HE LOVES it and so do I . But it's not a T2 . The thing is I may add a magnifier later and the sparc2 from what I've heard want be very good for that . And the biggest thing is DAMN $730 is a lot of money for a red dot optic . Yeh I know the battery last forever but hell what's $5 for a new battery once every year ?? It be different if the T2 did something other then just red dot . Yeh I know it's how great the optic is and I know I have a T1 that I got at a damn good deal with a upper . And yeh I know it's that onetime when your battery in your optic is dead and you may be also . There's just so much I could buy with that $730 .
Now if you haven't noticed by now I keep saying $730 letting it sink in because that's what I'm thinking about $730!!!! .
Try not to beat me up on this post guys as I'm just trying to reason with myself . And again the $ is not a issue it's just I know how much I can get for $730.
I know you guys have WAY MORE KNOWLEDGE AND TRAINING with this than I do and I value your opinions .
Thank you
Ps
Maybe the MRO??
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The Sparc 2 has an MSRP of $260 and has poor battery life.
Aimpoint gives choices that cost less than the T2.
When something goes bump in the deep of the night, the pain of having spent a few extra C-notes will be washed away by the comfort of having tens of thousands hours of a glowing red dot
bigjack7440
11-08-15, 02:32
The Sparc 2 has an MSRP of $260 and has poor battery life.
Aimpoint gives choices that cost less than the T2.
When something goes bump in the deep of the night, the pain of having spent a few extra C-notes will be washed away by the comfort of having tens of thousands hours of a glowing red dot
Yes I know there's the H1 and H2 but there not good with a magnifier from what I hear and I do like the pro but still it's going to be a true micro like T2 and I've I pull the trigger on a Aimpoint it's going to be the T2 not T1 . Yeh I can save $59 but the T2 IMHO is worth the extra $59 . As per another thread I asked about T1 vs T2 and what I found out by trying both is the T2 doesn't have that bluish looking glass and 1 or 2 more things but it's enough to go on with the T2 .
Thanks
That's the kind of post I need to hear lol,
The sparc2 sales for $189 on optic planet
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The coating difference between a T and an H has nothing to do with magnifiers, but to protect NODs from the light of the dot. If the coating of the H is inadequate, the coating of the Sparc will be no better.
You should be able to use a Aimpoint Pro with a magnifier, but I could be wrong.
If you can't afford the Pro, check out the Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot. I had a conversation with a guy who is a well respected trainer. He's been using the Primary Arm Advanced Micro Dot and said it has a great battery life (much better than the Sparc) and while he doesn't think it's as durable as an Aimpoint, it has so far given him good service on his training rifle. It's about $170
bigjack7440
11-08-15, 04:14
The coating difference between a T and an H has nothing to do with magnifiers, but to protect NODs from the light of the dot. If the coating of the H is inadequate, the coating of the Sparc will be no better.
You should be able to use a Aimpoint Pro with a magnifier, but I could be wrong.
If you can't afford the Pro, check out the Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot. I had a conversation with a guy who is a well respected trainer. He's been using the Primary Arm Advanced Micro Dot and said it has a great battery life (much better than the Sparc) and while he doesn't think it's as durable as an Aimpoint, it has so far given him good service on his training rifle. It's about $170
The sparc he's speaking of is it the sparc2 ?
And THANKZ
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Carolina_Boostin
11-08-15, 05:00
I just got a sparc 2 for 179 on ebay and I love it! To a poor guy like me I'd rather get a cheaper dot and use more money on ammo and parts to make my AR better
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bigjack7440
11-08-15, 05:25
I just got a sparc 2 for 179 on ebay and I love it! To a poor guy like me I'd rather get a cheaper dot and use more money on ammo and parts to make my AR better
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That's how I'm thinking
I'm poor also but I made really good $ in these last 10 weeks of shut downs and the $ really isn't the issue . I'm like you I can take all that $500 and buy all kinda of amo mags, bag, and hell buy some parts to start on my 308 . I just can't get see the T2/T1 being that much better than the sparc 2 but I've always bought the best but in the case I just don't see it .
If it was a scope where I needed a good magnifier etc yes but just a damn red dot optic ?? I'm going to have to really think about this lolo
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Buy the Sparc, use the leftover cash to take a training class so you can watch your Sparc break.
Spend the money on the Aimpoint. The optic will most likely outlast your rifle. The T2 is probably the best choice if you intend to buy a magnifier in the future. I bought a magnifier and barely use it so I am content with my H1s & T1s.
USMC_Anglico
11-08-15, 05:54
Buy the Sparc, use the leftover cash to take a training class so you can watch your Sparc break.
Spend the money on the Aimpoint. The optic will most likely outlast your rifle. The T2 is probably the best choice if you intend to buy a magnifier in the future. I bought a magnifier and barely use it so I am content with my H1s & T1s.
Too true. If you don't get the Aimpoint, you eventually will, thereby spending even more $
bigjack7440
11-08-15, 06:04
CoryCop25
Wow
Heck no I don't want that to happen
Is that what happened to your sparc2?
My uncle took 2 classes with me this year right after he got the new sparc2 and it didn't break . The instructors and other students where asking a lot of questions about it and I'm thinking that's because the Issue of Recoil was out with the review of the Sparc2 and most of us/them had seen it .
How long did your last before you had issue ? I'm guessing not long as the 2 has only been out like a year if that long .
Thanks for you input
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bigjack7440
11-08-15, 06:30
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?77928-You-get-what-you-pay-for-(What-separates-the-aimpoints-eotechs-from-other-optics
I think this guy said it all
So, if you buy something for "SHTF" that's got a great warranty, and it shits the bed, will that great warranty help you out then?
Here's the deal, you absolutely do get what you pay for. The lesser quality clone optics will not hold up to the conditions that a military grade optic will. I'm 99% certain that even the Vortex guys say that their stuff is not meant for duty.
If you're running on a super tight budget, and brother, I do understand what that means, then run your irons, and start an Aimpoint or Eotech jar, putting a couple bucks in it when you can, and pretty soon, you'll have the money that you need for a professional grade optic.
If you can afford a $200 optic, you're about half way there to the real deal.
Also, look at buying a good condition used one from a reputable member (I'd avoid places like Ebay because of all the Chicom airsoft clones). Aimpoint just released their Patrol Optic, which comes with a useable mount, and should be about $440 or so total.
If you're buying an optic, or a weapon, that you even slightly think might be pressed into service for defense of yourself or your family, then you need the best that you can get. If that means scrimping and saving for a while, and running irons, then that's what it means, and you'll be a better shooter for it at the end of the day.
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Another vote for saving your money and shooting irons until you can afford the aimpoint. Also, ARFCOM and Snipershide are great places to find used excellent condition optics, including aimpoints.
Nightstalker865
11-08-15, 08:43
Buy the T2 and don't look back. You've already gone quality on the rest of the gun, why skimp on the glass....
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You could always toss an Elcan Spectre into the comparison to soften the pain of the T2 price tag.
You're comparing magnified to non-magnified and the T2 is still that good. Sounds like you will end-up with the Aim point no matter what. No sense spending and losing money on the Vortex.
diving dave
11-08-15, 09:29
I have a Sparc on my 300 black SBR, simply because I had it sitting around in a spare parts box. For plinking, I think the Sparc is fine. But you mentioned a home defense role, get the Aimpoint. If money is truly an issue ( and I hear ya there brother) get the Aimpoint patrol rifle optic. Nothing wrong with it.
Singlestack Wonder
11-08-15, 09:40
Op.....Use the search function to learn basic 101 facts. It is your friend.......
The sparc he's speaking of is it the sparc2 ?
And THANKZ
He was talking about the Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot. It has a battery life of 50,000 hours.
The Sparc 2 has a battery life of only 5000 hours, and that's if you keep it on one of the lower settings.
I think it's false economy to buy an RDS and a magnifier. For that kind of money, you could get a good low power variable
SPARC is junk, get an Aimpoint.. any Aimpoint.
Get the Aimpoint. There is no comparison. Buy once cry once!
SeriousStudent
11-08-15, 18:15
Black Friday is just around the corner. There will undoubtedly be deals on the Aimpoint Pro. I would purchased that, and have an optic that works for the rest of your days.
bigjack7440
11-08-15, 18:32
Ok thanks for all the great advise .
I'll buy the T2 2 MOA From Larue
I just can't take a chance with a optic that may or may not be ready when it's time to defend my FAMILY .
The weapon is nice and it's my weapon system and why cheap out on a mil spec ready weapon with the optic ?
In order to make it a truly READY weapon system it needs the T2 and I'm going for lightweight and hands down the T2 has got all of the micro red dots beat .
As I said it's not the $ it's just was it truly woth it and yes for what this weapon is and what's it's built for you damn right .
I just needed you guys to talk me into it lolo .
Thanks !!!
Ps
I use the search A LOT !!!
I know about almost every optic there is .
Next up 308 with ACOG
Thanks GUYS !!
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I think it's funny when people say "oh, it's for your home defense gun, then you definitely need an aimpoint because they are built to withstand anything". Ya, because that 70 degree bedroom closet is pretty rough on red dots! lol.
Ok, I kid, but from what i've seen, a lot of home defense guns usually just sit in the closet and don't see much real hard use.
As for optics, I agree that overall you will be best served buying a quality optic up front. I have two aimpoints and an Eotech on my guns and love them. That being said, I strongly disagree with the folks who insinuate that a Sparc2 or similar optics are going to fail in a class or any hard use. The torture test they put the Sparc 2 through was pretty intense, and it held up through a lot more abuse than most of us could put through it in a lifetime. I personally have run a primary arms micro dot now through multiple classes and thousands of rounds of hard outdoor shooting in good and bad weather, and it has never skipped a beat. I still have aimpoints and eotechs on my main guns, but I think there are definitely some lower cost red dots that will hold up to anything most of us will put them through.
If you can buy an Aimpoint, do it, but if you want to buy the Sparc2 and spend the saved money on ammo and training, I think you will be well served either way.
bigjack7440
11-08-15, 20:35
I think it's funny when people say "oh, it's for your home defense gun, then you definitely need an aimpoint because they are built to withstand anything". Ya, because that 70 degree bedroom closet is pretty rough on red dots! lol.
Ok, I kid, but from what i've seen, a lot of home defense guns usually just sit in the closet and don't see much real hard use.
As for optics, I agree that overall you will be best served buying a quality optic up front. I have two aimpoints and an Eotech on my guns and love them. That being said, I strongly disagree with the folks who insinuate that a Sparc2 or similar optics are going to fail in a class or any hard use. The torture test they put the Sparc 2 through was pretty intense, and it held up through a lot more abuse than most of us could put through it in a lifetime. I personally have run a primary arms micro dot now through multiple classes and thousands of rounds of hard outdoor shooting in good and bad weather, and it has never skipped a beat. I still have aimpoints and eotechs on my main guns, but I think there are definitely some lower cost red dots that will hold up to anything most of us will put them through.
If you can buy an Aimpoint, do it, but if you want to buy the Sparc2 and spend the saved money on ammo and training, I think you will be well served either way.
Yeh see now I'm thinking about getting the Sparc 2 lmfao . Na I have the Larue t2 on the way now . But you are 100% right the sparc2 was put threw some serious hell and it still held 0 . As I said my friend has the sparc2 and it's been threw 2 classes and at lest 3000 rounds with us and it's doing fine . And yes they don't go threw much in the closet but I can't afford to have one for home defense ONLY and 1 for truck gun , 1 for range / classes etc etc . I use all my weapons for whatever . All would be use for home defense if it's the closest one at the moment .
Again thanks to all for the advise
T2 on the way
And yeh I'll still order a Sparc2 to try on my 1st AK .
Thanks again
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This is the internet, everyone has an opinion, everyone is an expert,....so this is my opinion. I have been looking at buying the Sparc2 for a new rifle I just recently built. I have been looking and researching online and in the stores. That said, I bought an Aimpoint for the first built and the next 4-5 builts did not get $800 Aimpoints or scopes. So, I have been there, done that. Vortex are my favorite scopes. I have been buying Vortex scopes and been exceptionally pleased with them. Once you find a company like Vortex that makes scopes that you just rave about, why look further. Anyway, I think their red dot scopes are good also. They are a good company and stand behind their products with a lifetime warranty. If something goes wrong, they make it right. It's probably the same warranty with the Sparc2. I am willing to bet you can take the Sparc2 to classes and it will not fail on you like a $20 ebay redot. If you need it for self defense, It will not fail you like a $20 ebay red dot. The guys at Vortex are not trying to produce the cheapest red dot like some of the Chinese knockoff are doing. Vortex is filling the void for the guy who wants a light weight, reasonable tough red dot that is 1/3 the cost of an Aimpoint. Batteries! I buy fresh batteries without any problem for my gun's optics,you are not behind enemy lines with no supply!....... I just don't think that should be the deal breaker. I think, if you buy the Sprac2, you won't regret it.
(http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/web_manual_sparc.pdf
Vortex Service and Repair Policy
Vortex Optics offers a lifetime
limited warranty against
manufacturer defects in materials
and workmanship for the life of
the product. Rest assured, if the
SPARC red dot scope should ever
require repair, all you need to do is
contact Vortex for service.
Call 800-426-0048 or e-mail
service@vortexoptics.com
Yeh see now I'm thinking about getting the Sparc 2 lmfao . Na I have the Larue t2 on the way now . But you are 100% right the sparc2 was put threw some serious hell and it still held 0 . As I said my friend has the sparc2 and it's been threw 2 classes and at lest 3000 rounds with us and it's doing fine . And yes they don't go threw much in the closet but I can't afford to have one for home defense ONLY and 1 for truck gun , 1 for range / classes etc etc . I use all my weapons for whatever . All would be use for home defense if it's the closest one at the moment .
Again thanks to all for the advise
T2 on the way
And yeh I'll still order a Sparc2 to try on my 1st AK .
Thanks again
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I was in the same boat as you. It hurts to buy something so expensive, but if you knew that there was one red dot that absolutely had to work to protect your life, the Aimpoint is the one. And when you look at it from that perspective it's well worth the money. Yes buying it will sting, but only sting once. And once you have the T2 you will be happy and glad you got it, and you will have it for the rest of your life. When you hear a window breaking in your house at 4am, the last thing you want to think is "damn, I should have gotten the Aimpoint." You made the smart move by getting the T2, you may not realize it now but you will after you get it.
XD40Colorado
11-13-15, 10:41
Yeh see now I'm thinking about getting the Sparc 2 lmfao . Na I have the Larue t2 on the way now . But you are 100% right the sparc2 was put threw some serious hell and it still held 0 . As I said my friend has the sparc2 and it's been threw 2 classes and at lest 3000 rounds with us and it's doing fine . And yes they don't go threw much in the closet but I can't afford to have one for home defense ONLY and 1 for truck gun , 1 for range / classes etc etc . I use all my weapons for whatever . All would be use for home defense if it's the closest one at the moment .
Again thanks to all for the advise
T2 on the way
And yeh I'll still order a Sparc2 to try on my 1st AK .
Thanks again
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I would say a Sparc 2 is pretty tough - check the Recoil Magazine review and torture test.
personally, I went with the Trijicon MRO. on the Sparc, the dot looked too smeared to me - yes I have astigmatism, but the MRO doesn't look as blob-like to me.
I was in the same boat as you. It hurts to buy something so expensive, but if you knew that there was one red dot that absolutely had to work to protect your life, the Aimpoint is the one. And when you look at it from that perspective it's well worth the money. Yes buying it will sting, but only sting once. And once you have the T2 you will be happy and glad you got it, and you will have it for the rest of your life. When you hear a window breaking in your house at 4am, the last thing you want to think is "damn, I should have gotten the Aimpoint." You made the smart move by getting the T2, you may not realize it now but you will after you get it.
Exactly, with the Aimpoint, turn it on, leave it on. It's ready to go when you need it. Same delema for me several years ago. I went with the SPARC initially but eventually replaced it with an Aimpont H1 for the reason above. In retrospect, I wish had gone with the Aimpoint from the get go. Nothing against Vortex, I like their scopes a lot and currently have one of their 2.5x10 FFP Vipers on my Noveske. In my book, if you only have one rifle for HD, an Aimpoint is what you want on it. OP, you won't regret you purchase.
globetruck
11-29-15, 16:10
Good discussion points. Any sparc owns have any problems with theirs?
Good discussion points. Any sparc owns have any problems with theirs?
Two Strikefires and a SPARC. All gen 1, all had to be returned. The SF's had the control housings fall off, and one of them was a dual dot model, and the red quit working. The SPARC just had issues with the control housing. The adjustment cap retainers also would come off.
Vortex, as a company, is great. They replaced them all with gen 2's for free. But their dots are junk in my experience. Maybe the gen 2 is better, but I doubt it. I sold mine. They still have a glued-on housing, which was an issue with all of mine. I got 3 years or so from one of the SF's, and they could handle drops well enough. But they, like every other Chinese red dot, proved to be a headache at one point or another. Get the Aimpoint and never look back.
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globetruck
11-29-15, 20:13
I'm also looking at the trijicon MRO. Some reviewers don't like the 1.05 magnification, and a few others have noted difficulty in seeing the red dot when in a fairly dark area that has stronger light from the rear. That seems like it could be an issue with any RDS. Can any sparc or aimpoint users chime in? Thanks!
I've only looked through an MRO, so I can't say if the magnification affects function, but I didn't like it or the tint.
I have never been unable to see the dot on my H1's when standing in a lit area, looking into a dark area (just now tried it with a 200 lumen light directly on the glass, as well). I notice that with cheaper scopes vs. more expensive ones, but I don't own any cheaper red dots to compare the Aimpoints against. Though, I would think Trijicon would have addressed that to a functional degree.
sidewaysil80
11-29-15, 20:47
I have used a SPARC 1 and had no issues with it. Weekly range sessions and roughly 1 carbine match a month. The only thing I disliked wS the blue tint/coating on the lems. Apparently that has been fixed with the SPARC 2. So I would def. consider picking one up.
I just spent two days T&E'ing every RMR Trijicon makes as well the MRO for our new department rifles. To be honest I didn't even notice the 1.05x of the MRO and really didn't notice anything when shooting back to back with our Aimpoint T1 equipped SWAT rifles. The field of view was noticeably a little wider/brighter so I would give it the edge to the MRO as everything else was the same.
The RMR's were the big surprise as I initiially dismissed them for any use as a primary optic. I was very surprised at how easy most models were to acquire as well as track on multiple shot drills. Overall the RMR's were a little quicker to acquire than the T1 and MRO which is to be expected due to size of dot.
I am voting for the RMR06 when the time comes and am considering either that or the MRO as a viable and "better" (per my reasons discussed) option to the Aimpoint T/H series.
Have you considered other options such as the RMR?
I have used a SPARC 1 and had no issues with it. Weekly range sessions and roughly 1 carbine match a month. The only thing I disliked wS the blue tint/coating on the lems. Apparently that has been fixed with the SPARC 2. So I would def. consider picking one up.
I just spent two days T&E'ing every RMR Trijicon makes as well the MRO for our new department rifles. To be honest I didn't even notice the 1.05x of the MRO and really didn't notice anything when shooting back to back with our Aimpoint T1 equipped SWAT rifles. The field of view was noticeably a little wider/brighter so I would give it the edge to the MRO as everything else was the same.
The RMR's were the big surprise as I initiially dismissed them for any use as a primary optic. I was very surprised at how easy most models were to acquire as well as track on multiple shot drills. Overall the RMR's were a little quicker to acquire than the T1 and MRO which is to be expected due to size of dot.
I am voting for the RMR06 when the time comes and am considering either that or the MRO as a viable and "better" (per my reasons discussed) option to the Aimpoint T/H series.
Did you try the RMR's in the rain?
Have had a sparc2 for almost a year. It's always held zero and when I've needed to change zero because of different ammo it always zeroed true. Granted my ar has not been to war and back but it does get bounced around in my company pickup daily, it's been dropped onto pavement, its seen -30f to +108f, been used in the rain and snow and has seen the general life of a hard use truck gun then sits by my bed at night. It's what I could afford and hasn't failed me yet. I don't leave the battery on though. It's been my only red dot but for $200 I am happy with it. If I had the money yea a t2 would be nice but for now this sparc 2 will suffice
Went to test some new loads today and had a really tough time with the sparc 2. Even with a known zero load I was having shifting and rounds were going everywhere. Going to go back out tomorrow and ruin a few more proven rounds through it to see if it was me or if their is a problem with my red dot. I really hope their isn't because I really don't have the cash to drop on an aimpoint or the mro
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It was all me yesterday. Got everything up running today
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