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View Full Version : AAR Vickers Tactical Level 1 Subgun/Carbine 2-3 Aug 08



TOrrock
08-04-08, 11:18
First off, this was a very different class from your typical 2 day carbine class. Larry Vickers delivered the same level of training one would expect out of a professional of his stature, and we had a fantastic opportunity to get some famfire on the newest weapon systems that FN-Herstal has to offer, as well as some time honored favorites courtesy of my good friend Sam (Panzerschreck here on the board).

Students could run a select fire subgun, pistol caliber carbine, or a "standard" carbine if they wished.

Emphasis was, as always, on accuracy, and it was made quite apparent early on that while full auto fire is "fun", it's not nearly as practical as some people might think it is. Ultimately, only hits count, and if you're launching bullets down range without precision, you're not doing much more than making noise. There is certainly a time and a place for full auto, but generally speaking, what I took away from this class is that I am in NO WAY handicapped by the use of a semi auto carbine.

I ran my buddy Sam's post 86 dealer sample H&K G36C with an Aimpoint T-1 optic.

At first blush, it's a slick little package, extremely light, decent ergonomics (with the exception of the lack of an external bolt release like an AR), BUT, the iron sights pretty much suck and the front sight hood, which is a very thick polymer, tend to obscure the target when using a red dot. I "persevered" however, and once I got used to the sight picture and the trigger pull (it's not an AR, or even an AK), I was making some really decent hits, and won the last walk back drill of TD1.

On TD2, when we were doing a lot of shooting on the move, and we were cleared for select fire if we wanted. I tried it once, and never felt the need to do again.

On TD1, we did a famfire using Sam's toys, which included a full size UZI, a Sterling Mk. 4, a Thompson M1928 (Dutch WWII contract), Hungarian PPSh-41, German MP-40, and HK MP5A2. We separated the subguns up into three groups, and I ran the famfire on table 1, which was the Sterling Mk. 4, Thompson M1928, and German MP-40. Brett from FN-Herstal included a FN P90 as well.

According to Larry, you're not a real American until you've shot a Thompson. :cool:

On TD2, after we finished some handgun work, which is always an eye opener to me (how the hell can I have a great double action trigger pull, but adopt El Snatcho Grande on single action?!), we moved on to shooting on the move with both handgun and long gun.

After we broke for lunch, Brett from FN Herstal gave us all an outstanding familiarization on the latest that FN-H has to offer in small arms.

The new FNP-45 Military w/Docter Optic, FN P90, SCAR-L and SCAR-H, Mk. 48 MOD 1, and the new 40mm grenade launcher all made an impression on the students.

I am extremely impressed with the SCAR series of weapons, and will certainly add both a Light and a Heavy to the home armory if/when they are released for civillian consumption.

The Mk. 48 Mod 1 was extremely impressive. Compact, lightweight and easily taught, it's a real winner.

Anyway, here are some pics and vids.......

TD1

Who says FN employees never smile......? :cool:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Subgun%20Aug%202-3%2008/P1000732.jpg

Sighting in at 50 yards....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Subgun%20Aug%202-3%2008/P1000733.jpg

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Walk back drill......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Subgun%20Aug%202-3%2008/P1000737.jpg

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TOrrock
08-04-08, 11:25
TD1 Familiarization Fire

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Subgun%20Aug%202-3%2008/P1000757.jpg

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Jay Cunningham
08-04-08, 11:53
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Subgun%20Aug%202-3%2008/P1000789.jpg


I think I may be looking at the future - how did it work in practice?

John_Wayne777
08-04-08, 11:54
I really REALLY wish I could have been at this one. It looks like it was a lot of fun.

EDIT -- Templar, I'm sure Mr. Vickers spent a little bit of time talking about the times when you might want to put the happy switch to full auto....could you share those?

30 cal slut
08-04-08, 12:14
i missed a good time. bummer.

anyhoo, did anyone try a "stance check" with an MP5?

TOrrock
08-04-08, 16:43
Katar.....I like the FNP-45 Military, although there were a couple things that a few of us would change. The sights are a little "too" tall, and the DO isn't perfect.

One thing we noticed with the DO was that the lens would get obscured fairly easily with lubricant, and when Brett would go prone, dust would collect on the lens. That might be mitigated by a hood or cover on the Safariland, but it could still be an issue.

Having said that, I still think it's a good idea and I'd like to get more trigger time behind one before making any definitive judgement.

JW777......I got the distinct impression that full auto fire had extremely limited applications for a shoulder fired weapon. Larry stated that during his time in the unit, they never took their MP-5's off past semi auto. Suppressive fire might be an application, but that's about it. I'd rather have Larry answer your question more directly than I can.

.30 cal....there was some discussion of stances, but the "spongebob square pants" stance was quickly quashed.





TD2

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Subgun%20Aug%202-3%2008/P1000796.jpg

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TOrrock
08-04-08, 17:04
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TOrrock
08-04-08, 17:27
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TOrrock
08-04-08, 17:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmzU10uWTB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqhsLsplhEI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia6EoY78tq0

SHIVAN
08-04-08, 20:12
How did those SCARs sound suppressed?? Which AAC cans were they using?

m4fun
08-04-08, 21:39
The MP-40 was definately my favorite - impressive was the Sterling, PPsh and naturally the Thompson.

When folks were firing the MP-40, you could alway hear "Steiner" in the background by Templar ref Cross of Iron.

What was way cool is just comparing some of these "easy to control" subguns and firing the SCAR-Heavy - Full Auto - talk about being rocked!

Templar - great photos man - as always a pleasure!

Mentioned on the other thread - Thanks to Sam and Brett again - sharing the fun!

Business_Casual
08-04-08, 22:15
Templar,

What's the story behind the Ukorochennyj? Lightning bolt?

M_P

TOrrock
08-04-08, 22:50
Shivan, Brett didn't bring down any suppressors for us to play with so I can't answer you on that one.

M4Fun, always man.

Here's you on the Mk. 48 MOD 1....that brass was hot! :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuTq5eP6NF8

Larry Vickers getting some trigger time.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_A4YlXbz6s

John_Wayne777
08-04-08, 22:58
Belt fed brass does get hot.....

I've still got blisters on my hands from being burned by the PKM brass....err...steel.

Seeing the M249 and the other wonderful toys you guys were playing with REALLY makes me sad that I didn't attend this one. I came so close to being able to go.....so very close....I even had my CMP M1 Carbine ready to go...but alas...no joy. :(

ADC
08-05-08, 00:12
I hear ya John, I thought I was not going to be able to make it, but I sure am glad I did, I think everyone felt like a kid in a candy store. Oh the belt fed was a MK 48 which is like a scaled up 249 in 7.62, its almost 10lbs lighter than the M240.............................

GaryG
08-05-08, 12:06
Templar, great pics!! Great write-up, too.

It was a pleasure working with you as we struggled to exorcise the 'el snatcho' demons together.

Like ADC says, I was like a kid in a candy store both days. The flat-shooting, 'all-American' .45 Thompson was my favorite fam fire, until I stepped up to the line with "The Thumper" (FN/H SCAR-H) on full auto. Where else can you get two days of 1st class subgun/carbine/pistol training from LAV, and fam fire exotic equipment like this?

I was kind of worried for a minute there - - I thought for sure that Larry was going to put me on the Short Bus for showing up with a fiber optic front sight on my 1911 :-)

Special thanks to Sam and Brett for bringing all the neat toys - - we all really appreciate it.

TOrrock
08-05-08, 21:15
Templar,

What's the story behind the Ukorochennyj? Lightning bolt?

M_P



That's ADC's blaster/thumper. He built it using a Bulgarian milled receiver that had been cut for an underfolder, but he put a Galil stock on it, and installed a left handed bolt handle system of his own manufacture.

That US made muzzle brake sounded like a damn flash-bang going off every time he pulled the trigger........ :D

GaryG, it was a pleasure training with you as well. I almost beat you on that second bullseye drill!!! :cool:

TOrrock
08-05-08, 21:28
Something else that I noticed at the class......there were ZERO, I mean not a ONE AR-15 or M16 in a pistol caliber there.

That really suprised me. I thought for sure that someone would bring a Colt, Rock River, or even an Oly in 9mm.

Also thought that someone might show up with a Beretta Storm, as they're decent little carbines.

And.....no M1 Carbines either......

Anyway, just an observation.

ADC
08-05-08, 21:42
Something else that I noticed at the class......there were ZERO, I mean not a ONE AR-15 or M16 in a pistol caliber there.

That really suprised me. I thought for sure that someone would bring a Colt, Rock River, or even an Oly in 9mm.

Also thought that someone might show up with a Beretta Storm, as they're decent little carbines.

And.....no M1 Carbines either......

Anyway, just an observation.

Yea I was very surprised that there were no AR 9mms at the class. I was going to bring mine but figered there would be a boat load of them.

SinnFéinM1911
08-05-08, 22:37
SMACKEM' - RUGA

koolaid
08-06-08, 01:58
I posted over in the other thread, but i figured i should also post in this one as well. It was a pleasure to train with everyone there. I couldn't have asked for a better class as my first training class. Now for the thank you's. First to LAV for teaching this class, (I think he had as much fun as we did), second to Sam for bringing out his collection to get familiar with, and last but not least to Brett and Mike for bringing out the new stuff for us to drool over,(note to self, must have SCAR-L).
As far as no 9mm AR's I was surprised to say the least. I was hoping to be able to try out one to see if I want to build one or not. As far as a m-1 carbine, I didn't even think about bringing mine until after I got home. Well there is always next time.
I hope to be able to train or just shoot with all of you again, until then everybody shoot straight and stay safe.

riverguide
08-06-08, 22:42
HEY INFIDEL!
WHAT'S the LOUDEST Sound in a GUNFIGHT!!:confused:

CLICK!:D

To bad "Infidel" is taken already.

I want to thank Larry and All for the great training and the chance to shoot the extras! Everyone keep it in the black and be safe!

Jim S.

The Dumb Gun Collector
08-10-08, 22:58
I have kinda been feeling "over" all the training classes lately but that one looks awesome!