Best magnification for conventional-1000 yard shots (bolt-action 6.5 CM)?

[TraumaPlateDuctTape]

Been toying with the idea of buying a bolt gun. The Hornady ELD-X Precision Hunter 6.5 has some great numbers going for it. Don't plan on pushing it much past 1,000 yards, but I also want conventional 0-400 distances to not be a problem either. What's the general consensus on magnification for a do-it-all rifle? Any recommendations on brand//objective lens/etc? I like Leupold's offerings, as well as Nightforce.

[wilson1911]

I have a NF beast on top of my creed. If you only want to buy one scope and not think of getting something better, it would suit you well. I do find that shooting at longer ranges, more horsepower is the better bet(above 15x). There are more pricey scopes like the S&B's, but I cannot and may not ever shoot well enough for it to make a difference. I find that NF glass to be an excellent price point and great repeatable turrets. If you buy a Vortex PST, while good for it's price, it will leave you wanting something a bit better. I dial my beast up to about 17x-20x when shooting 1000-1400 yards. this allows me to read the wind and see my vapor trail. Look at it this way, just because you have a scope that has 25x mag, you do not dial it up all the way and shoot. This obscures the surrounding area of the target. We want to see what the wind is doing at all times. Lastly some scopes are not that good at max magnification. It's a bit more complex, this is a good generalization.
My creedmoor is MY rifle to own them all. It will kill most anything within 1k. Elk may require a bigger round like the 7SAUM/338 LM. The benefits of owning a creed is being able to shoot all day long with little fatigue and box ammo is not too expensive. Most are laser beams out of the box and easy to reload for. I bought mine so I did not have to reload, but since I had 700 rounds of brass staring at me I am reloading for it now. I just finished my ocw for the amax and am moving over to bergers atm.

Be aware the the ELD's are a 2016 product. I would get the rifle now and place an order for bullets/cartridges now. There are 2 bullets that shoot well out of the creeds, Amax and Bergers. The amax is discontinued already and Hornady is ramping up for the ELD's. There are more creed shooters than ever, so I imagine they will sell out and be on back order in no time. I am a member on another site and we are placing orders for bullets already.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Don't plan on pushing it much past 1,000 yards, but I also want conventional 0-400 distances to not be a problem either. What's the general consensus on magnification for a do-it-all rifle? Any recommendations on brand//objective lens/etc? I like Leupold's offerings, as well as Nightforce.

Out at 1k you will probably want 20x or higher. Sure, you could hit large targets (like high power 6' square targets) with much less, but you will want 20x. The 0-400 end depends on whether you really mean 0, like hand to hand distances, or if you really mean 25-50 at public ranges, on up. I don't think anything really covers hand to hand out to 1k at all well. If you mean 25-1k, you should be OK with a low magnification in the 4-6x range.

Good scopes in that range are expensive, but since you mentioned Nightforce I assume you know that. The NF ATACR, ATACR F1 and BEAST would all be good options, in the 5-25x56mm flavor. You might also find the NXS 5.5-22x50 or 56mm scope still around, which would also be a good option for somewhat less money. Vortex has a relatively new Razor Gen2 4.5-27x56mm scope that is getting glowing reviews, and would be in between the NF prices.

For something lower priced but still with great glass, look at the Sightron SIII 6-24x50 and 8-32x56mm scopes. These are popular among the F-class and benchrest crowd. I shot two seasons of F-class with the 6-24x50 and it worked decently. Adjustments were great, glass clarity was good, but eyebox was tight and I couldn't use 24x most of the time, which was a drawback.

I wouldn't recommend anything Leupold. Even the Mark 6 series has a lot of reports of problems among people at Sniper's Hide, and everything below that is extremely dated and overpriced. The Mark 8 does get good reviews, but for what they cost I would go with something with a better reputation and resale, like S&B.

[Failure2Stop]

I wouldn't recommend anything Leupold. Even the Mark 6 series has a lot of reports of problems among people at Sniper's Hide, and everything below that is extremely dated and overpriced. The Mark 8 does get good reviews, but for what they cost I would go with something with a better reputation and resale, like S&B.

I have used and sold way too many Leupolds to way too many high level users to agree with this.
There are always some items that will make it through QC (especially in a new product line), but Leupold is extremely stand-up about their warranty.

Folks will always have a personal preference on products, I do my best to prevent preference from creeping into other aspects.

[Digital_Damage]

I have used and sold way too many Leupolds to way too many high level users to agree with this.
There are always some items that will make it through QC (especially in a new product line), but Leupold is extremely stand-up about their warranty.

Folks will always have a personal preference on products, I do my best to prevent preference from creeping into other aspects.

no kidding. The issues with the MK4 V2 was what 10-12 years ago? MK6 and MK8's are good to go IMO. Granted not quite S&B nice for ELR, but S&B is going to cost 2k more and in all honesty only the 1% of the 1% of the 1% will be able to notice the details.

[SomeOtherGuy]

I have used and sold way too many Leupolds to way too many high level users to agree with this.
There are always some items that will make it through QC (especially in a new product line), but Leupold is extremely stand-up about their warranty.
Folks will always have a personal preference on products, I do my best to prevent preference from creeping into other aspects.

I probably have a lot less personal experience with Leupold than you, but my personal experience hasn't been good. This includes:

1) Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40 bought previously owned but as-new on a forum (can't remember if it was this one or not). Scope was genuine and in as-new condition without ring marks or any signs of use. But the reticle had numerous and noticeable dust spots (this is internal, on the piece of glass that the reticle is etched into). Sent back to Leupold for service. They cleaned the dust, and put a huge ding in the ocular bell while it was in. No excuse for damaging the scope, and if their manufacturing was cleaner, it wouldn't have had dust on the reticle either.

2) Leupold VX-R 3-9x40 purchased new from Cabela's about 3 years ago. The ballistic reticle was misshapen and lopsided, like it had been drawn with crayons, or had melted. Scope went back and scared me off Leupold for a time.

3) Leupold VX-R 3-9x40 purchased new from Cabela's a month ago. I am just wanting to like this model. TMR reticle is properly formed, but visibly canted from vertical. This is going back and will probably be my last-ever Leupold purchase. Reading on Sniper's Hide indicates that Leupold has a tolerance of 3 degrees for reticle cant, and will not fix a reticle that is canted less than 3 degrees. Some may consider this acceptable, I don't.

That is my direct personal experience with Leupold's quality and service. I have also owned three other Leupolds that did not have apparent defects, but a 50% problem rate is - how do you say - unspeakably bad?

Numerous posts on Sniper's Hide indicates that I'm not alone in this experience, and that most people there have given up on the brand. There is a long and detailed thread on testing of the tracking of various brands and models of scope, which you can find here:

http://www.scout.com/military/snipers-hide/forums/5511-rifle-scopes/13865031-killswitch-s-scope-tracking-tests

If you read through it you'll see (1) several brands have common problems with certain models, (2) Leupold Mark 6 3-18x scopes seem to have a lot of problems, and (3) the one Mark 8 tested was perfect.

The other problem I have with recommending Leupold to any random buyer is that they apparently offer a huge (30-40%?) discount for mil and LE. That's great if you get the discount and I can easily see how someone who gets the discount would find their scopes appealing. HOWEVER, it also means that resale value of used Leupold scopes is low, and if you can't get the discount, you are taking a huge hit on resale value. I don't buy any scope with the intent of reselling it, but practically speaking I and many other people do tend to resell them as we work our way up the quality ladder or decide we want X features instead of Y. When I have resold Nightforce and Steiner scopes I have broken even. It's not likely I could do that with Leupold scopes, especially in the Mark 4/6 series.

Those are my reasons for not recommending Leupold, and I have tried to clearly detail what is personal experience vs. what is simply overheard from others' claims.

[Digital_Damage]

I probably have a lot less personal experience with Leupold than you, but my personal experience hasn't been good. This includes:

1) Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40 bought previously owned but as-new on a forum (can't remember if it was this one or not). Scope was genuine and in as-new condition without ring marks or any signs of use. But the reticle had numerous and noticeable dust spots (this is internal, on the piece of glass that the reticle is etched into). Sent back to Leupold for service. They cleaned the dust, and put a huge ding in the ocular bell while it was in. No excuse for damaging the scope, and if their manufacturing was cleaner, it wouldn't have had dust on the reticle either.

2) Leupold VX-R 3-9x40 purchased new from Cabela's about 3 years ago. The ballistic reticle was misshapen and lopsided, like it had been drawn with crayons, or had melted. Scope went back and scared me off Leupold for a time.

3) Leupold VX-R 3-9x40 purchased new from Cabela's a month ago. I am just wanting to like this model. TMR reticle is properly formed, but visibly canted from vertical. This is going back and will probably be my last-ever Leupold purchase. Reading on Sniper's Hide indicates that Leupold has a tolerance of 3 degrees for reticle cant, and will not fix a reticle that is canted less than 3 degrees. Some may consider this acceptable, I don't.

That is my direct personal experience with Leupold's quality and service. I have also owned three other Leupolds that did not have apparent defects, but a 50% problem rate is - how do you say - unspeakably bad?

Numerous posts on Sniper's Hide indicates that I'm not alone in this experience, and that most people there have given up on the brand. There is a long and detailed thread on testing of the tracking of various brands and models of scope, which you can find here:

http://www.scout.com/military/snipers-hide/forums/5511-rifle-scopes/13865031-killswitch-s-scope-tracking-tests

If you read through it you'll see (1) several brands have common problems with certain models, (2) Leupold Mark 6 3-18x scopes seem to have a lot of problems, and (3) the one Mark 8 tested was perfect.

The other problem I have with recommending Leupold to any random buyer is that they apparently offer a huge (30-40%?) discount for mil and LE. That's great if you get the discount and I can easily see how someone who gets the discount would find their scopes appealing. HOWEVER, it also means that resale value of used Leupold scopes is low, and if you can't get the discount, you are taking a huge hit on resale value. I don't buy any scope with the intent of reselling it, but practically speaking I and many other people do tend to resell them as we work our way up the quality ladder or decide we want X features instead of Y. When I have resold Nightforce and Steiner scopes I have broken even. It's not likely I could do that with Leupold scopes, especially in the Mark 4/6 series.

Those are my reasons for not recommending Leupold, and I have tried to clearly detail what is personal experience vs. what is simply overheard from others' claims.

Some MK4's were dogs, I can agree with that.

As for the MK6 sometimes you get a stinker. We had one track fine (.2 at 15 MIL) but, did fail fire test. Leopold did replace it and it did not repeat.

Had no issues with MK8.

To put it in perspective the NXS that was tested failed tracking by 1.0 at 15 mils same with the S&B 5-25 we tested. they were returned and had no issues afterwards.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Some MK4's were dogs, I can agree with that.
As for the MK6 sometimes you get a stinker. We had one track fine (.2 at 15 MIL) but, did fail fire test. Leopold did replace it and it did not repeat.
Had no issues with MK8

Thanks, interesting to hear your experience.

At Mark 6 prices they are competing with the Nightforce NXS line, the discontinued 4x Steiner Military (which are well made but enormous), the possibly troubled Steiner T5xi line (see tracking test thread above), Vortex Razor gen1 (also enormous), and just below the ATACR, Vortex Razor gen2, street prices on Kahles, etc. It has light weight but that's pretty stiff competition. I know that absolutely any and every company makes a dud once in a while, but how often do you see or hear about Nightforce scopes that are defective out of the box? I think I've read of one single example across the optics forums I read.

The Mark 8 3.5-25x is around $4300, which puts it in competition with most S&B scopes, almost anything Steiner, USO, Kahles, or Nightforce makes, and not far from the price of a Tangent Theta or Hensoldt. It should be absolutely flawless at that price point.

OP: this is a bit of tangent. If you have a specific price limit or price point in mind, we could give you concrete suggestions of scopes to look at.

[Digital_Damage]

Thanks, interesting to hear your experience.

At Mark 6 prices they are competing with the Nightforce NXS line, the discontinued 4x Steiner Military (which are well made but enormous), the possibly troubled Steiner T5xi line (see tracking test thread above), Vortex Razor gen1 (also enormous), and just below the ATACR, Vortex Razor gen2, street prices on Kahles, etc. It has light weight but that's pretty stiff competition. I know that absolutely any and every company makes a dud once in a while, but how often do you see or hear about Nightforce scopes that are defective out of the box? I think I've read of one single example across the optics forums I read.

The Mark 8 3.5-25x is around $4300, which puts it in competition with most S&B scopes, almost anything Steiner, USO, Kahles, or Nightforce makes, and not far from the price of a Tangent Theta or Hensoldt. It should be absolutely flawless at that price point.

OP: this is a bit of tangent. If you have a specific price limit or price point in mind, we could give you concrete suggestions of scopes to look at.

The NSX we had failed right out of the box. One of the other two teams that were testing had their sample failed too. So 2 out of three were a no go. PRB is showing the current collaborative data on the NSX shows an average 1.0 MIL at 15 MILL tracking issue. some vastly worse some perfect.
The Kahles 3-12 had serious issues, and it was not just QC related. The entire erector was crap, they have since abandoned it in favor of a new erector. The Kahles 6-24 had no significant issues.

The only scope we had pass all test with a .1 threshold was the BURRIS XTR II. A $1000 scope.

The point being. If you can, you shouldn't take a small sample and make that indicative of a subject/brand. Also 99.999% of the people buying the scopes do not know what they are doing to begin with so they will not see the inherent issues and voice their rage.

[Failure2Stop]

Can't argue the resale, I deal with large volume orders and requirements matching.
SOCOM recently performed the most extensive precision optic testing that I believe has ever been done with the ECOS-O, in which the Leupy 3-18x crushed.
True, there are some current players and items that were not included (such as the recent NF offerings) that are, in my experience, very good optics.
I'm not saying that there aren't other good optics.

I have found the Mk 6 line to be pretty significantly superior to the Mk 4 and VX-R lines.

[Digital_Damage]

Can't argue the resale, I deal with large volume orders and requirements matching.
SOCOM recently performed the most extensive precision optic testing that I believe has ever been done with the ECOS-O, in which the Leupy 3-18x crushed.
True, there are some current players and items that were not included (such as the recent NF offerings) that are, in my experience, very good optics.
I'm not saying that there aren't other good optics.

I have found the Mk 6 line to be pretty significantly superior to the Mk 4 and VX-R lines.

Well crushing it is relative... It made the requirements at the price point needed.

The requirements were a little tight and tailored made for it IMO. At the time no other scope met the requirements, a few vendors rushed some out the door. That is why we had a slew of "short" optics hit the civ market shortly after. That being said, it did meet all the requirements and passed the shake downs.

[Failure2Stop]

Well crushing it is relative... It made the requirements at the price point needed.

The requirements were a little tight and tailored made for it IMO. At the time no other scope met the requirements, a few vendors rushed some out the door. That is why we had a slew of "short" optics hit the civ market shortly after. That being said, it did meet all the requirements and passed the shake downs.

There are optics out now that were not in the ECOS-O program.
I would not hesitate to recommend the NF ATACR 4-16.

[Digital_Damage]

There are optics out now that were not in the ECOS-O program.
I would not hesitate to recommend the NF ATACR 4-16.

That is one I would love to test... seems to be made of the right stuff on paper.

My only concern is it seems to be on the heavy side. +6 over the MK6, and the same as the S&B ultra short 5-20x50.

[TraumaPlateDuctTape]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I'd like to edit my original range requirements to 100-1000 yards. The rifle I'm looking at is the DT SRS-A1, so I really want the optic to squeeze as much potential out of the rifle as possible. I'm willing to splurge.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Nice rifle. You are probably looking at scopes above the $2k or so range, which is where my personal experience ends. I would do a lot of research before buying, and would include in your research these sites:

Sniper's Hide
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=541&f=5511

Precision Rifle Blog, and this article in particular:
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/18/best-tactical-scopes-and-reticles/

Ilya's Optics Thoughts
http://opticsthoughts.com/

My 2 cents - expect near perfection at that price point, and don't settle for anything that isn't. And whatever you get, no matter how expensive, set up a tracking test and make sure the exact scope you bought tracks correctly. All this requires is a properly measured distance (typically 100 yards but you can scale it for others) and a yardstick. The "scope humbler" tests have shown that many companies make examples that do and don't track properly, even within the same exact model.

[Digital_Damage]

Nice rifle. You are probably looking at scopes above the $2k or so range, which is where my personal experience ends. I would do a lot of research before buying, and would include in your research these sites:

Sniper's Hide
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=541&f=5511

Precision Rifle Blog, and this article in particular:
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/18/best-tactical-scopes-and-reticles/

Ilya's Optics Thoughts
http://opticsthoughts.com/

My 2 cents - expect near perfection at that price point, and don't settle for anything that isn't. And whatever you get, no matter how expensive, set up a tracking test and make sure the exact scope you bought tracks correctly. All this requires is a properly measured distance (typically 100 yards but you can scale it for others) and a yardstick. The "scope humbler" tests have shown that many companies make examples that do and don't track properly, even within the same exact model.

this is good advice.

Easy way to test tracking with a .1mil adjustments without lab equipment is draw a grid with 18 inch squares, place it 100 yard down and make sure the lines are level. Level the rifle on a bench and tie it to a sled, should be able to track to each line every 5mil adjustment.

[gsh341]

Have you looked at the Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50 Mil Dot? They're reasonably priced at about $450.

I'm looking at buying one for my 30-06.

http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-6-5-20x50-pa-riflescope-mil-dot-reticle

If you want to spend more, they make a top end model as well.

http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/razor_hd_riflescopes

[HKGuns]

I feel compelled to jump in here as I have a pretty large number of Leupold scopes and have had nothing but good luck and zero issues.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of the Leupold scopes I have experience with and there are indeed a lot of nice options out there. The NF 4-16 gives up too much to the MK6 in terms of high end, low end and weight in my view.

I take much of what I read over on that other site with a grain of salt.