View Full Version : More concealable carry ideas
teutonicpolymer
11-15-15, 23:22
I used to be able to carry full size guns without too much an issue but recently I leaned up a bit and am now finding it difficult to carry without printing. I'm looking for suggestions on carry methods to get around this- I am not a twig but rather I am an athletic/muscular built guy so even riding in the car while carrying iwb 4 o'clock has become unbearably uncomfortable when it used to be a non issue.
I am considering deeper concealment options like pocket carry and single stack slim options for iwb 4 o'clock carry. I am not interested in shoulder/chest rigs right now, and I am not a fan of appendix carry. I also do not want ankle carry to be my primary carry method.
I'd appreciate any thoughts here. Some of the handguns I'm thinking about include:
-G43 for pocket carry or iwb
-Shield for iwb or the rare pocket carry if I'm wearing the right pants
-LC9S pro for pocket and iwb
-LCR for flexible carry aka any pocket, and perhaps occasional iwb carry
The G43 hasn't impressed me but it seems pretty good all around. The Shield I have actually fired and like, but it is honestly a little big for what I would want though I think it would solve my problem with iwb carry printing though I'd still need to dress around it unlike pocket carry. LC9S pro I have not fired but I have fired the LC9; the s pro trigger impressed me and the size is good but I have read about issues with the followers deteriorating and leading to the slide jamming on the follower in a non-locked back position on empty. The LCR appeals to me because of how concealable it is though I have fired it in .357 and found it incredibly unpleasant (I could deal with that). The 9mm LCR seemed neat until I read about bullet jump, and the 3" LCR seems appealing but does not come in .357. Another issue is that I have difficulty finding .357 mag ammo locally.
Again, any input is appreciated. I see a lot of options that seem like they could probably work but nothing strikes me as being the "right" choice.
I've owned all but the LC9. I have a G43 and plan on getting another.
I would maybe experiment with holsters first. What did you use to carry?
I'm all of 5'10" 165lbs with no shoulders. My usual carry is either a 5" 1911 or a Glock 17 IWB. Found a holster I like for both and I carry all day. Have tried other holsters with the same guns and couldn't hardly last a few hours.
To conceal I just wear patterned button up shirts.
I would look at the shirts I wear to start with, buy a shirt a little bigger and try that.
I also don't like appendix carry but I carry IWB with the pistol very forward on my hip and I only carry full sized pistols and I don't print. Glock 34 with RMR or a Hi Power are my main carry pistols.
You could try a few different holster options before you swap out guns, I have heard people saying the RCS Eidolon is great for thinner guys and hides very, very well.
teutonicpolymer
11-16-15, 06:32
Holster has been an Aliengear IWB which I like and don't think is the problem as I have not had a problem with it in the past. I used to be able to just wear a thicker material size L t shirt over it with a compact or full size and not have an issue. Now, I have problems wearing a t shirt and a large for size, size L button up flannel.
I think part of the issue is that I don't have the lower back "padding" I used to so at a 4 o'clock position the grip is at an oblique angle to my body and sticks out. I could probably keep it flat if I moved it to 5 o'clock but at that point the grip is over my spine and I would rather print than risk a spinal cord injury if I fell backwards or had someone push me to the ground if worst came to worst.
Auto-X Fil
11-16-15, 06:55
I am 5'11", 150lb. I can carry a full size, but I need to do so around 3:30 for it to be comfy. This means I need a pretty baggy cover garment. As I've leaned out more, I've given up on my M&P 40c, as my XD-M 40 is almost as comfy and a heckuva lot more firepower.
My solution was a PPS because I shoot it really well, but you can't go wrong with any of the new single-stack 9mm guns. The thinner slide and grip on these guns really tucks them into skinny guys much more comfortably. The PPS with short magazine is super-flat, but still extremely easy to draw, shoot, and hit stuff with. It's the only small single-stack that never has me re-gripping between shots. I give up a little capacity to a double-stack, and reloads are slower, but I'm 90% as fast at drawing and getting 8-9 shots on target with the PPS as I am with the XD-M or even Kimber Custom Target.
I also have a Ruger LCP that I pocket carry. I would have to wear some seriously baggy pants to pocket-carry a G42 or bigger, and even then drawing would be hard. The LCP slips right into jeans or a suit.
My brother-in-law has been ankle carrying an Airweight J-Frame and really likes that as a comfy, highly-concealed option. I haven't tried that method myself. I know I can't pocket-carry an LCR or J-frame comfortably.
FWIW, I carry in Comp-Tac MTACs, except the LCP which is in a Galco (I think) pocket holster that came with the (used) gun.
teutonicpolymer
11-16-15, 07:33
I am 5'11", 150lb. I can carry a full size, but I need to do so around 3:30 for it to be comfy. This means I need a pretty baggy cover garment. As I've leaned out more, I've given up on my M&P 40c, as my XD-M 40 is almost as comfy and a heckuva lot more firepower.
My solution was a PPS because I shoot it really well, but you can't go wrong with any of the new single-stack 9mm guns. The thinner slide and grip on these guns really tucks them into skinny guys much more comfortably. The PPS with short magazine is super-flat, but still extremely easy to draw, shoot, and hit stuff with. It's the only small single-stack that never has me re-gripping between shots. I give up a little capacity to a double-stack, and reloads are slower, but I'm 90% as fast at drawing and getting 8-9 shots on target with the PPS as I am with the XD-M or even Kimber Custom Target.
I also have a Ruger LCP that I pocket carry. I would have to wear some seriously baggy pants to pocket-carry a G42 or bigger, and even then drawing would be hard. The LCP slips right into jeans or a suit.
My brother-in-law has been ankle carrying an Airweight J-Frame and really likes that as a comfy, highly-concealed option. I haven't tried that method myself. I know I can't pocket-carry an LCR or J-frame comfortably.
FWIW, I carry in Comp-Tac MTACs, except the LCP which is in a Galco (I think) pocket holster that came with the (used) gun.
The PPS I love in some regards but really dislike in others. I dislike the backstrap safety thing and I think the paddle mag release is terrible. Other than that I like it.
I also have a comp-tac mtac but I haven't used it in a while. Good holster but I like that aliengear uses metal belt clips.
Auto-X Fil
11-16-15, 07:42
I don't like the blackstrap safety, but I think it's much ado about nothing. Just leave the damn thing alone and it's a non-issue. That and the price pushed me away from it when it first came out, but I've realized all the press about the backstrap was overblown. And the price is way down - I paid under $400 new.
I really have come to love paddle releases in general. To the point that it's tempting to ditch my XD for a VP9 (that trigger doesn't hurt either). The PPS isn't as good as the H&K releases, but I've gotten pretty good at using my trigger finger on it. My middle finger seems to work better on bigger guns. Given the small mag size, and the fact that the mags drop free very slowly, it's not a real fast reload for me anyway... But I often carry it with no spare mag, so it doesn't matter.
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5' 10" 170lbs, I carry full size 1911s in a milt sparks vmII and they hide really well. I always have my shirts tucked in too. I use the tuckable kydex clips
I'm tall and light for my height. I like a slender pistol of compact size. Right now it's a Sig P225 or S&W M13 3". I carry both appendix.
teutonicpolymer
11-16-15, 12:14
Wow I did not realize how light the 38 +p LCR's are
I may have to check out the .38 +p LCRx 3"
I have a feeling I'm not going to end up going with a revolver but I find the idea appealing on some levels
I wanted something smaller than a Glock 19 to carry everyday and I shot quite a few small handguns before making a decision. I shot Kahrs, Rugers, S&W Shields and the Kimber Solo before making a decision. I carried a S&W J Frame since the mid 1980s and it is a viable option, but I am leaning toward small semi-automatic handguns these days.
I currently have a Glock 43 I carry daily in a F3 AIWB holster I purchased from C.E. Harris on M4C. The Glock 43 is not the most accurate pistol, nor does it have the lightest recoil, but it is a good all round carry pistol if you don't have the wherewithal to carry and conceal a Glock 19 or full size 1911. After 2,500 rounds, I can safely say my Glock 43 has been reliable.
teutonicpolymer
11-17-15, 19:19
The 43 is looking pretty appealing to be honest. I'm hoping to go to the LGS sometime this week and check what they have.
I'm honestly not even sure what I'm looking for after thinking about this. I simultaneously want something with a good trigger, but not too good; small, but large enough to be shootable; short, but tall enough to hold enough rounds; narrow, but not so narrow that it is unshootable; not long but a slightly longer barrel might be nicer for ballistics; ready to go out the box, but configured how I want it...
The revolvers are probably not going to make the cut, they are more difficult to shoot, slower to reload, offer no real ballistic advantage, are actually worse ballistically for the same round from the same length barrel as an auto, hold less rounds, I cannot (locally) find .357 or .38 special readily for practice (while 9mm jumps crimp), and carrying speedloaders is harder for me than carrying mags. Like I predicted, I think this was some novelty since I first learned how to shoot with revolvers.
I do not see myself primarily pocket carrying which is moving the Shield back up my rankings a little. It would be nice to have the option though. The Shield price, size (fits my hand perfectly), trigger, magazine size, and the fact that it has been vetted are attractive. It definitely seems less pocket-carriable though. I feel the 43 can get most of these things if I spent enough money. I do have an issue dropping mags free when the grip is too small, which is an issue with the 43 that cannot be fixed, but not really an issue with the Shield for me.
Auto-X Fil
11-17-15, 19:36
I simultaneously want something with a good trigger, but not too good; small, but large enough to be shootable; short, but tall enough to hold enough rounds; narrow, but not so narrow that it is unshootable; not long but a slightly longer barrel might be nicer for ballistics; ready to go out the box, but configured how I want it...
PPS, G43, Shield. The one you are comfortable shooting will meet those criteria. For me and several friends, the PPS has been the one that has everyone shooting really well the first time they pick it up, so I'd start there. It also just dropped in price - I paid $395 for mine.
I tried, carried, and shot the Shield and the Glock 43.
I kept the Shield and actually bought a second one.
The G 43 has the edge for concealability, but I didn't like the feel of the grip and I couldn't shoot it as well. The Shield with and Apex trigger and the Ameriglo Hackathorns was the right combo for me.
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I tried, carried, and shot the Shield and the Glock 43.
I kept the Shield and actually bought a second one.
The G 43 has the edge for concealability, but I didn't like the feel of the grip and I couldn't shoot it as well. The Shield with and Apex trigger and the Ameriglo Hackathorns was the right combo for me.
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I don't know why, but I couldn't shoot the Glock 43 to save my life. I consider myself to be a pretty good pistol shooter... But for some reason the 43 didn't like me at all.
PPS, G43, Shield. The one you are comfortable shooting will meet those criteria. For me and several friends, the PPS has been the one that has everyone shooting really well the first time they pick it up, so I'd start there. It also just dropped in price - I paid $395 for mine.
The PPS is an absolute steal for under $400 and IMO the best single stack 9mm on the market. I compared mine to the 43 and there is no comparison. The PPS is extremely accurate and can be compared to guns that are twice the size and price. It is softer shooting and mine has a better trigger then the 43. The only downside for some could be the paddle mag release.
FlyingHunter
11-18-15, 18:10
Reconsider before changing guns. A properly made belt, designed for CCW and a well designed holster can go along way to concealing a CCW gun.
I own and carry the LC-9s Pro(no safety or mag disconnect) it has a wonderful trigger, scary light. I've not had mag related issues with the six rounder it came with. I bought an extended nine rounder that has feeding issues. I'm 5'7" and 170 I wear a 32 waist and I can conceal my CZ P-07 rather easily in jeans and a medium T-shirt either appendix or four o'clock iwb, I just have to be mindful of how I bend. The ruger is what I carry in the summer when I have shorts on and I carry that appendix in a blade tech clipit.
buckpatriot
11-18-15, 22:16
I used to be able to carry full size guns without too much an issue but recently I leaned up a bit and am now finding it difficult to carry without printing. I'm looking for suggestions on carry methods to get around this- I am not a twig but rather I am an athletic/muscular built guy so even riding in the car while carrying iwb 4 o'clock has become unbearably uncomfortable when it used to be a non issue.
I am considering deeper concealment options like pocket carry and single stack slim options for iwb 4 o'clock carry. I am not interested in shoulder/chest rigs right now, and I am not a fan of appendix carry. I also do not want ankle carry to be my primary carry method.
I'd appreciate any thoughts here. Some of the handguns I'm thinking about include:
-G43 for pocket carry or iwb
-Shield for iwb or the rare pocket carry if I'm wearing the right pants
-LC9S pro for pocket and iwb
-LCR for flexible carry aka any pocket, and perhaps occasional iwb carry
The G43 hasn't impressed me but it seems pretty good all around. The Shield I have actually fired and like, but it is honestly a little big for what I would want though I think it would solve my problem with iwb carry printing though I'd still need to dress around it unlike pocket carry. LC9S pro I have not fired but I have fired the LC9; the s pro trigger impressed me and the size is good but I have read about issues with the followers deteriorating and leading to the slide jamming on the follower in a non-locked back position on empty. The LCR appeals to me because of how concealable it is though I have fired it in .357 and found it incredibly unpleasant (I could deal with that). The 9mm LCR seemed neat until I read about bullet jump, and the 3" LCR seems appealing but does not come in .357. Another issue is that I have difficulty finding .357 mag ammo locally.
Again, any input is appreciated. I see a lot of options that seem like they could probably work but nothing strikes me as being the "right" choice.
I have recently lost some weight as well and as opposed to you, I have a different experience. I found that my ability to carry IWB was much easier and Carrying OWB caused less printing. The IWB was more comfortable, due to more room and less "belly",while OWB left clothes around my waist looser and more room for the weapon/holster.
Did you perhaps lose muscle along with the weight? I have pretty wide/ muscular shoulder which didn't lose size with workouts so I didn't downsize on shirt size. The IWB allowed me to use pants that were previously to tight to carry, to now be comfortable.
I find everything to work better when in great shape! Good luck- I hope you find the right fit!
Auto-X Fil
11-19-15, 20:06
I shot the PPS, G43, Shield, LC9S, PM9, and XDS today.
The Kahr and Ruger are quite a bit smaller in the grip than the others. They could probably be pocket carried, unlike the others.
The Ruger has a tiny grip in all dimensions, yet didn't feel out of control in rapid fire. Not as fast as the bigger guns, but surprisingly good.
I hate the Kahr trigger bow. It's way too curved and slick. That and the short grip made it hard to shoot well. I'd rather have my LCP and keep it even smaller.
The XD-S, like all compact XDs I've shot, suffers much from the high bore axis, which doesn't bother me on the full-size guns. Slow-fire the trigger was typical XD - a little mushy but not too heavy - and the gun munched out one ragged hole. Speeding things up made it messy fast, as I had trouble settling the gun back down.
The PPS, Shield, and G43 all shot well, but dammit that Glock trigger sucks. I shot the other two very well, but the PPS a little better. The G43 took a major effort to keep the trigger coming straight back, and the safety was downright painful. I'm sure it's a great gun with a new trigger bow, but it is awful stock.
All three are a really nice size - very compact, with enough grip for man-sized hands to hold securely. The M&P's stack-and-a-half mag is a nice way to squeeze 8rd in there, and the PPS manages 7 in the flush mag, which makes the G43's 6rd pretty weak.
So, if pocket carry or ultimate concealment is the concern, the LC9s (and I assume the Pro) is my suggestion. If it's IWB, the PPS and Shield are both very good choices, and both under $400.
If you are a Glock fan, I won't steer anyone away from a G43, since it did shoot well other than the trigger. Just bring $$$ for mods and be aware of the 1-2rd you're giving up in capacity.
How "lean" are you? I have been wondering about a CCW lately but every time I try to position a pistol against my right side or in front of my hip I just see so much potential for printing. I also work hard to reduce "padding" and to maintain a more muscular physique.
I know people say to dress around the gun but when people are familiar with how you dress and the environment is often over 60 degrees it just seems like it'd make people think more about why someone is dressed that way. I don't want to look like the OSP dignitary protection where practically the serial number can be seen through their tuxedos.
I've lost a few pounds and I'm in a similar situation .
I used to carry a XD45 in a Crossbreed supertuck deluxe .
I then switched to a Glock 17 in a Galco King Tuck .
I tried a few guns out and I was down to either the G43 ,26, or 19 .
The 26 didn't seem right even with an extension on the carry mag .
The length of the G43 seemed right but the rest of the grip didn't seem to fit me well .
( The stock 6 round mags were a turn off as well ).
I went with a G19.4 and reused the Galco King tuck holster .
The slight decrease in size seems to be right at a sweet spot so far .
It doesn't bother me when driving at all ,and the smaller grip goes a long way
towards keeping the gun from poking up my shirt .
I might want something smaller later but for now it seems just right .
On paper the 17 and 19 are barely any different but when I'm
carrying concealed the slight difference is very noticeable .
LibertyNeverDies
11-20-15, 20:17
I know you said you didn't want to consider appendix carry but I'm 5'11 and 3/4 and 170 pounds and my glock 19 conceals like no other in my Raven Concealment
Eidolon. Safety wise I know a lot of people are scared of appendix, but the only position I'd feel safer with is 3 o'clock OWB. With the Eidolon it's extremely smooth to re-holster and it's very easy for me to make sure nothing is there to hang up and get caught in the trigger guard. It's honestly made me hesitant to carry at 3:30 and 4 o'clock because I can't see what was going on. I where properly fitting slimmer clothing. Medium slim fit sport shirts. It's also really comfortable.
I have a JM Custom Kydex for my PPQ and it works great but doesn't conceal anywhere near as the eidolon. I believe that if I had a JM custom kydex holster for my dad's PPS or my 43 they'd conceal equal to my 19 in the eidolon. It's really work checking out the eidolon and considering AIWB.
I configured the eidolon for 3:30-4 o'clock and it was not as good as my Comptac MTAC by a long shot.
teutonicpolymer
11-22-15, 13:07
I have recently lost some weight as well and as opposed to you, I have a different experience. I found that my ability to carry IWB was much easier and Carrying OWB caused less printing. The IWB was more comfortable, due to more room and less "belly",while OWB left clothes around my waist looser and more room for the weapon/holster.
Did you perhaps lose muscle along with the weight? I have pretty wide/ muscular shoulder which didn't lose size with workouts so I didn't downsize on shirt size. The IWB allowed me to use pants that were previously to tight to carry, to now be comfortable.
I find everything to work better when in great shape! Good luck- I hope you find the right fit!
Thank you- I wasn't huge to begin with but I'm now at about 6' 170 lbs down from 195 lbs but I am muscular and my pant size is about 31". Probably the most significant thing I noticed is that it is FAR less comfortable to carry concealed at 4 o'clock when sitting in the car.
The PPS is an absolute steal for under $400 and IMO the best single stack 9mm on the market. I compared mine to the 43 and there is no comparison. The PPS is extremely accurate and can be compared to guns that are twice the size and price. It is softer shooting and mine has a better trigger then the 43. The only downside for some could be the paddle mag release.
This talk about the PPS has convinced me to at the very least look at it again in person and compare it to the others. When I looked at it in the past it was north of $500. While i do not like grips so short that my pinky goes under the magazine on semi-autos due to issues with me dropping the mag free, I did like the fact that it has small, medium, and large sized magazines.
Reconsider before changing guns. A properly made belt, designed for CCW and a well designed holster can go along way to concealing a CCW gun.
I am a bit of a belt snob and only use my Bullhidebelts leather belt, Originalsoe cobra belt, or my Wilderness instuctor belt (I recommend all of these, though my Originalsoe belt is a little large for size- love it nonetheless). I even consider my Hank's Amish belt to not be good enough.
I shot the PPS, G43, Shield, LC9S, PM9, and XDS today.
The Kahr and Ruger are quite a bit smaller in the grip than the others. They could probably be pocket carried, unlike the others.
The Ruger has a tiny grip in all dimensions, yet didn't feel out of control in rapid fire. Not as fast as the bigger guns, but surprisingly good.
I hate the Kahr trigger bow. It's way too curved and slick. That and the short grip made it hard to shoot well. I'd rather have my LCP and keep it even smaller.
The XD-S, like all compact XDs I've shot, suffers much from the high bore axis, which doesn't bother me on the full-size guns. Slow-fire the trigger was typical XD - a little mushy but not too heavy - and the gun munched out one ragged hole. Speeding things up made it messy fast, as I had trouble settling the gun back down.
The PPS, Shield, and G43 all shot well, but dammit that Glock trigger sucks. I shot the other two very well, but the PPS a little better. The G43 took a major effort to keep the trigger coming straight back, and the safety was downright painful. I'm sure it's a great gun with a new trigger bow, but it is awful stock.
All three are a really nice size - very compact, with enough grip for man-sized hands to hold securely. The M&P's stack-and-a-half mag is a nice way to squeeze 8rd in there, and the PPS manages 7 in the flush mag, which makes the G43's 6rd pretty weak.
So, if pocket carry or ultimate concealment is the concern, the LC9s (and I assume the Pro) is my suggestion. If it's IWB, the PPS and Shield are both very good choices, and both under $400.
If you are a Glock fan, I won't steer anyone away from a G43, since it did shoot well other than the trigger. Just bring $$$ for mods and be aware of the 1-2rd you're giving up in capacity.
I don't care for the Kahr for similar reasons to yours. The Ruger lc9s pro impressed me and I'm still considering it. I've not trusted the XD series in general very much and don't see myself getting one. I think I said it before but I strongly feel the G43 can be great if you're willing to dump a bunch of money on it, but I'm not sure I want that. There is much I like about the Shield but it is definitely on the large side. From this thread I have been convinced to check out the PPS once more.
How "lean" are you? I have been wondering about a CCW lately but every time I try to position a pistol against my right side or in front of my hip I just see so much potential for printing. I also work hard to reduce "padding" and to maintain a more muscular physique.
I know people say to dress around the gun but when people are familiar with how you dress and the environment is often over 60 degrees it just seems like it'd make people think more about why someone is dressed that way. I don't want to look like the OSP dignitary protection where practically the serial number can be seen through their tuxedos.
I've lost a few pounds and I'm in a similar situation .
I used to carry a XD45 in a Crossbreed supertuck deluxe .
I then switched to a Glock 17 in a Galco King Tuck .
I tried a few guns out and I was down to either the G43 ,26, or 19 .
The 26 didn't seem right even with an extension on the carry mag .
The length of the G43 seemed right but the rest of the grip didn't seem to fit me well .
( The stock 6 round mags were a turn off as well ).
I went with a G19.4 and reused the Galco King tuck holster .
The slight decrease in size seems to be right at a sweet spot so far .
It doesn't bother me when driving at all ,and the smaller grip goes a long way
towards keeping the gun from poking up my shirt .
I might want something smaller later but for now it seems just right .
On paper the 17 and 19 are barely any different but when I'm
carrying concealed the slight difference is very noticeable .
I am in the same boat as the both of you it sounds like. I am about 6' 170 lb, muscular, and my pant size is around 31". Cutting weight for more muscle definition has made it far less comfortable to carry.
OWB leather pancake with my Shield...the best concealment option.
ritepath, what owb holster do you use? thanks.
teutonicpolymer
11-24-15, 19:21
Alright well I remember why I discounted the PPS a few years back....
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/pps/41062-dropped-pps-onto-concrete.html
That backstrap "safety" is utterly disgusting
Auto-X Fil
11-24-15, 20:05
I'm not a fan of the backstrap safety, but it's easily defeated. Mine seems awfully tight, but I'll still probably pin it eventually.
grizzlyblake
11-25-15, 10:14
Similar story. I've always been muscular, but was "thick" at 5'6" 190lb with a 34" waist and carried at 4 o'clock for a long time. I cut down to 155lb with a 30" waist and 40" chest and I don't like wearing frumpy clothing so it's generally Levi's and a fitted polo or t-shirt for me.
I don't have any problem carrying a G26 AIWB but I don't love the stubby grip on the 26, even with +2 extensions, even though I've carried one for like 5 years. I can carry the 19 AIWB and it's comfortable standing but sitting for long periods makes the muzzle dig into my inner thigh.
I bought a new Shield 9mm for $299 (Black Friday week deal) and am going to try it out. I like the longer grip and thin frame, but not sure if I'm cool with 9rds versus 13 in my G26. Of course it will carry even better AIWB.
Either way I'd recommend trying a quality belt and quality kydex AIWB rig on anything G26 sized and smaller.
I carried a Sig p239 for years ISWB, just behind the hip in a Alessi holster. It was/ is a great combo, comfortable and easy to conceal. I have since moved to a pps in a crossbreed holster. It is lighter, thinner and I shoot it as well if not better than the Sig. I looked at and shot a lot of other guns before settling on the pps YMMV.
RedRallyeZ
12-06-15, 11:24
really skinny guy here (6'3, 145) and i carry a G43 with alien gear IWB at about the 530 spot. it took a lot of experimenting with different holsters to find not that would work. Even in just a tee shirt, not even a baggy one, i get by with no one noticing. Its rare that i don't have at least a button up or a golf shirt on over that though.
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