View Full Version : Pat McNamara Pro Tip
civiliansheepdog
11-16-15, 10:39
Really? Sink more finger in the trigger?! Seems that goes against everything I've ever heard or been taught. I would love some feedback on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g&feature=youtu.be
Video doesn't come up. If this is on a Glock that is a common tip to keep from shooting left of POA.
Really? Sink more finger in the trigger?! Seems that goes against everything I've ever heard or been taught. I would love some feedback on this.http://https://youtu.be/G8JX2hZR_6g
I heard this first from Kyle Defoor and he advocates the same. He recommends this position for both handgun and carbine. His reasoning was its a affords a shorter stroke, a more precise trigger press, less potential for inducing movement into the gun and faster follow up shots/splits.
donlapalma
11-16-15, 11:06
I watched this video over the weekend and I believe Pat qualifies this tip as being mainly for shooters with very large hands or "d*ck beaters". I'll watch the video again later but it's hard to forget that hilarious reference.
Simplest: Fingertip-only utterly disregards the straight-up physiological differences between one human or another in terms of hand/finger size (long, short, slender, sausage-like, injury, innate flexibility, relative strength). It presupposes that everybody falls within a certain section of a bell-curve, which makes it not "wrong," but only one answer for a question that can be answered several different ways depending upon circumstances.
The fingertip-only proponents disregard the reality of how some folks have difficulty isolating that 2nd knuckle. They can end up, instead of bending the finger at that knuckle and pressing the trigger like a button on a radio, end up *straightening* their finger leftward (on a right-handed shooter), which can push the muzzle of the gun leftward. Feeding more finger, if possible, can help with that by changing the angles of how the finger interacts with the trigger, though even THAT'S not the only way to work on that problem.
Bear in mind also what one is DOing with the gun, the desired endstate. A bullseye-only shooter may very well net great success with only applying the tip of the finger, or the first half of the first distal joint, or however one chooses to describe it, because whet they're trying to accomplish is pretty type-specific, and repetition is the foundation of clarity. They can work out how to make that work for the one job they have to do, which is put single shots as closely together under at known distances what a lot of us with a more "practical" angle would consider extremely generous time constraints.
Boils down the idea that there is no One Ring to Rule Them All. One of the guys I work with has what I call "strangler's hands." His hands are HUGE; dude can pick up six M67 fragmentation grenades in each paw. First time I shook hands with him, I was startled to discover no blood spurting from my own fingertips like a popped ketup packet. I've seen him carry 147 plastic grocery bags full of soup cans across a supermarket parking lot in a single trip with no digital amputations. His trigger finger ends up with the 2nd knuckle crease over the trigger on a M9...because it HAS to.
So, folks putting more finger on aren't automatically wrong.
Other side of the coin: If you learned finger tip, and it's working for you, the idea of others adding more finger doesn't indicate you're doing anything wrong, either. Consider how he couched the language: he didn't sink more finger just because, he did so to answer a particular condition he was encountering.
EDIT: I fixed the link.
The guy probably sends more rounds down rage in a day than I do in a month, so if you're not shooting like you want why not try it?? We are all built differently and there is no one thing that works well for all humans.
civiliansheepdog
11-16-15, 12:13
Yeah, I love Mac's style. He's got so much experience but I figured I would share and see what you guys had to say. Thanks for fixing the link, J. I don't have giant "dick beaters" so it doesn't really apply to me anyways.
When I first attended pistol classes in the 1980s a lot of the pistol instructors were Bullseye shooters and they taught people to press the trigger to the rear with their fingertip. That may work well on a tuned 1911 with a light trigger, but it did not work well with the S&W Model 39 I was carrying at the time.
I agree with Mr. McNamara's recommendation on trigger finger placement. When the trigger is fully pressed to the rear, the portion of the finger past the distal joint should be at a 90 degree angle with the face of the trigger. This may require the trigger be opposite of the quick of the fingernail or the distal joint close to touching the side of the trigger depending on physical size of the shooter. The technique works well for most people and you can't argue with success.
As said, do what works for you, I find I shoot much better with more finger on the trigger. I run mine just inside of center, ymmv. I think this is more common with heavy striker triggers, it feels like the added leverage helps me stay consistent and the targets support this.
friendlyfireisnt
11-16-15, 13:15
Really? Sink more finger in the trigger?! Seems that goes against everything I've ever heard or been taught. I would love some feedback on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g&feature=youtu.be
It's something worth trying. As mentioned above, it has to do with how your hands are built, and how they interface one your pistol.
Most of my pistols I can shoot well using the fingertip. Shooting my shield, I cannot do that. I have to put much more finger on the trigger.
plouffedaddy
11-16-15, 14:52
Video doesn't come up. If this is on a Glock that is a common tip to keep from shooting left of POA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g&feature=youtu.be
I shoot Glocks and always struggled with shooting left. I started adding more finger about a year ago and it has helped a lot. I think it's worth trying for anyone else who hits left.
I have small hands so depending upon the grip and how far forward the trigger is I may or may not be able to do that. On my Glocks I can only get just a bit past that first pad. So I've had to really concentrate on how I depress the trigger to make sure I'm not pushing the gun left.
The thing that video doesn't do is put that statement into context.
If you take a class with Pat, that's during one of his discussions on trigger control early in the POI. The theory being that by sinking as much finger on the trigger as possible, we have a more even distribution of rearward pressure through the travel of the trigger as opposed to pulling with just the pad of the finger and having it speed up towards the end of the trigger pull.
The main talking point was to make our trigger finger act like a vice as much as possible as opposed to a fulcrum.
Wouldn't hand-finger size/length, gun, trigger, and in the case of glock LH or RH govern??
Speaking of Pat's Pro-Tips for handguns, this one was good and made me laugh out loud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMwgHN2o9vQ
civiliansheepdog
11-16-15, 17:52
The thing that video doesn't do is put that statement into context.
If you take a class with Pat, that's during one of his discussions on trigger control early in the POI. The theory being that by sinking as much finger on the trigger as possible, we have a more even distribution of rearward pressure through the travel of the trigger as opposed to pulling with just the pad of the finger and having it speed up towards the end of the trigger pull.
The main talking point was to make our trigger finger act like a vice as much as possible as opposed to a fulcrum.
That context makes all the difference...thanks btw.
Video doesn't come up. If this is on a Glock that is a common tip to keep from shooting left of POA.
Yep - this^^^^^
I have come to the conclusion that this is the best (only?) way for some to shoot a Glock well!
john
That context makes all the difference...thanks btw.
I highly recommend taking a class with him. His CST class was probably the most beneficial training I've ever received.
FlyingHunter
11-16-15, 19:33
I've never tried this...been shooting Glocks for years. This weekend, I'll give it a go. I have no idea if it will benefit me, however; I'm always willing to learn and change to improve.
I just finished 4 days of training with Pat McNamara today. I feel it's the best training I've had to date (6 classes and 4 instructors). He's the third instructor I've heard say to put more finger on the trigger so I finally gave it a try in his classes. It took a little getting used to but I feel it improved my accuracy with a pistol. I was shooting a VP9. I highly recommend taking his class if you ever get the chance.
I've never tried this...been shooting Glocks for years. This weekend, I'll give it a go. I have no idea if it will benefit me, however; I'm always willing to learn and change to improve.
Set up a series of targets at 15 yards and place different parts of your trigger finger on the face of the trigger while shooting ten rounds on each target. I believe you will be surprised at the difference in the POI. Pick out the target with the smallest group you can shoot quickly and adjust your sights for shooting with that technique.
I have done this with students in the past and they were surprised at which part of their finger they placed on the trigger and shot well.
If you don't like the technique, you are only out a few rounds.
USMC_Anglico
11-16-15, 19:43
When I first attended pistol classes in the 1980s a lot of the pistol instructors were Bullseye shooters and they taught people to press the trigger to the rear with their fingertip. That may work well on a tuned 1911 with a light trigger, but it did not work well with the S&W Model 39 I was carrying at the time.
I agree with Mr. McNamara's recommendation on trigger finger placement. When the trigger is fully pressed to the rear, the portion of the finger past the distal joint should be at a 90 degree angle with the face of the trigger. This may require the trigger be opposite of the quick of the fingernail or the distal joint close to touching the side of the trigger depending on physical size of the shooter. The technique works well for most people and you can't argue with success.
Exactly, what works with tuned 1911's was found wanting when applied to stock striker fired pistols. Bury that finger, it solves issues for many people.
Speaking of Pat's Pro-Tips for handguns, this one was good and made me laugh out loud
and then there's "institutionalized inbreeding mindset":laugh:
https://youtu.be/qopNlr9Eu-E
Mac is one of the few shooting instructors whose advice you can follow almost blindly. If he suggests something, even if it doesn’t make sense at first, then you owe it to yourself to at least try it out.
Okie John
civiliansheepdog
11-16-15, 20:20
I highly recommend taking a class with him. His CST class was probably the most beneficial training I've ever received.
He is my #1 choice for a class this coming year.
Well, didn't read the thread before I respond.
That out of the way, personal experience I was told to use less finger. I did and my shooting suffered. I put my finger where it was comfortable for me and saw an improvement. My fingers are stupid long.
civiliansheepdog
11-16-15, 20:23
Pat and a former SOF guy named Tyler Grey have teamed up with Larry Vickers to create a Web series called Sentinel based on Pat's book.https://youtu.be/jucYWk_q6Uc
Pat and a former SOF guy named Tyler Grey have teamed up with Larry Vickers to create a Web series called Sentinel based on Pat's book.
http://https://youtu.be/boPVOi-PMcw
Link doesn't work for me.
civiliansheepdog
11-16-15, 21:15
Sorry guys, should be fixed now.
Hand size, finger length, trigger reach, trigger type, physical ability or disability will all be factors. Use whatever trigger pull type that allows you to pull the trigger straight to the rear without disrupting the sights. There is no one pull type that suits everyone. I pull a revolver trigger much different than a pistol.
I am now a Pat McNamara fan. I watched a few of his videos. Definitely an intelligent guy. I need to take some of his classes.
I watched both vid's he has on Panteo and they are really good, I wish both of them had more Pat Mac. I'd really like to take a class with him maybe next year. I like the way he breaks things down to a simple explanation, and also some of his stuff is pretty funny. I am going to try the trigger idea I've had times where I did hit left of center especial after I haven't shot in a while. Someone else here said what I was thinking it may be a different technique considering the pistol, action type and all that.
Ed
civiliansheepdog
11-17-15, 18:53
I've downloaded his Sentinel book on Amazon to my Kindle for $3. I also plan on getting both the DVDs, Pistol TAPS and his carbine course, before I take his class.
I watched both vid's he has on Panteo and they are really good, I wish both of them had more Pat Mac. I'd really like to take a class with him maybe next year. I like the way he breaks things down to a simple explanation, and also some of his stuff is pretty funny. I am going to try the trigger idea I've had times where I did hit left of center especial after I haven't shot in a while. Someone else here said what I was thinking it may be a different technique considering the pistol, action type and all that.
Ed
For what it's worth, when specifically asked about this in class (Glock vs 1911/trigger finger placement) Mac stated that he does it on every pistol he shoots.
Really very interesting, he also says in his videos that he has trouble seeing the sights on handguns anymore, its an age thing I can relate, however if he keeps the big blur of the sights in the center of the target and has good trigger control his groups are right where he wants them to be. Seems like trigger control is the most important consideration.
Ed
I took one of Pat's classes this summer. Amazing instructor and you will walk away learning something. He did bring up this topic in his class and explained how it helped him improve it's that's even possible.
I have his TAPS book. He seems like a refreshingly intelligent, practical, open-minded, cross-disciplinary guy. Much to learn from ones like him. He's one I'd seek training from above many others.
When I grow up I want to be just like Pat McNamara...though being a few years older than him might make it harder to accomplish. :(
civiliansheepdog
11-20-15, 13:57
Just finished Pat's Sentinel book. It was very straightforward and easy to read. The last half of the book I had some familiarity with before but it was a refreshing reminder. I would highly recommend it since it's only $3 for Kindle.
When I first attended pistol classes in the 1980s a lot of the pistol instructors were Bullseye shooters and they taught people to press the trigger to the rear with their fingertip. That may work well on a tuned 1911 with a light trigger, but it did not work well with the S&W Model 39 I was carrying at the time.
I agree with Mr. McNamara's recommendation on trigger finger placement. When the trigger is fully pressed to the rear, the portion of the finger past the distal joint should be at a 90 degree angle with the face of the trigger. This may require the trigger be opposite of the quick of the fingernail or the distal joint close to touching the side of the trigger depending on physical size of the shooter. The technique works well for most people and you can't argue with success.
I'd have to agree with you on that. I once tried to dry fire a Mosin Nagant revolver with a sub optimal grip and the fingertip. It was physically impossible. A better grip and more finger on the trigger solved the problem.
press the trigger however is best to create a straight back break at the last millimeter of trigger press.
fingers move in an arch because there are a few fulcrums in each of the finger joints. it's impossible to create a straight back press for the entire duration of trigger travel. what's important is generating that straight back press at the end of the trigger press when the trigger breaks. everyone has different anatomy, so what's important is that the press is straight at the end of the trigger press, not what portion of the finger is used.
voiceofreason
11-21-15, 09:21
if your gun is significantly smaller than your hand, this actually works.
the pad on trigger for large hands + a .380 compact = pulling left
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