Thoughts?

[Discipulus]

I am in the market to purchase my first AR. I want a fighting rifle that will serve me well if SHTF. After spending hours and hours reading and researching, I originally concluded that I would get an LMT upper in 14.5", an LMT Defender lower with SOPMOD stock, standard trigger, and an ambi-selector (I'm right handed, but left eye dominant), and an LMT standard, full-auto BCG. Since I do not want to register this weapon, I was going to put a Sabre Defence Flash Suppressor on it to bring the total length to 16". After some more thought, however, I'm not sure this would be the best decision. I am now thinking of getting a 16" BCM Mid-length upper and the same LMT lower as above. My thinking is this: If I'm going to have to register a rifle, I want to get my money's worth and go with a 10.5" or 11.5" upper (I may do this later this year or early next year depending on the results of the coming election), but I don't want to get an SBR for my first AR. Having to register your rifle because of 1.5" just doesn't seem worth it to me (maybe I'm wrong, if so please tell me), so, I'd have to permanently attach the flash suppressor, which then limits my rail options in the future. I know I could use the DD Omega, but that's about it, and seeing as I have no experience with rails, limiting myself seems foolish. If I'm going to end up with a 16" anyway, why not purchase a 16" to begin with? That way I could get it in mid-length, which everyone seems to agree is a better system, and I will have more options when it comes to rails. The advantages of the 14.5" over the 16" (some say the former has better balance and is better for CQB) seem negligible, particularly once you factor in the permanent flash suppressor.

With all of that said, I guess my questions are as follows:
- What are your thoughts on the 16" BCM mid-length as opposed to the 14.5" LMT carbine?
- Which BCG would you recommend, BCM or LMT? And, if you recommend LMT, do you recommend the enhanced full-auto or standard full-auto?
- Is there an advantage, in terms of warranty, reliability, etc., in having all LMT parts vs having an BCM upper and possibly BCG on top of an LMT lower?
- What are your thoughts on the ambi-selector?

[Jay Cunningham]

- What are your thoughts on the 16" BCM mid-length as opposed to the 14.5" LMT carbine?

The mid-length is probably a better general purpose choice.

- Which BCG would you recommend, BCM or LMT? And, if you recommend LMT, do you recommend the enhanced full-auto or standard full-auto?

They are both about the same - very good. Personally I would just keep the upper and BCG BCM...

- Is there an advantage, in terms of warranty, reliability, etc., in having all LMT parts vs having an BCM upper and possibly BCG on top of an LMT lower?

Probably no.

- What are your thoughts on the ambi-selector?

I would not get one but then again I am right hand/right eye.

.........

[AllAmerican]

You may want to check out the member sale forum later as I think there will be an LMT for sale with everything you are looking for...;)

[RallySoob]

whats wrong with a 16" carbine?

[28_days]

whats wrong with a 16" carbine?

Nothing, but a 16" AR is the perfect size for a mid-length setup. Not only is it more reliable (which isn't much of an issue to begin with), but it causes less wear and tear. It generally breaks down like this:

14.5 and shorter: carbine
16: mid-length
18: intermediate
20+: rifle

Though nothing is definitive.

[Discipulus]

Do you think a 14.5" carbine is a better set-up than a 16" mid-length? In other words, is a 14.5" carbine worth getting and registering over getting a 16" mid-length and not having to register it? Or, is this like comparing Advil and Tylenol, both are good, but they serve different purposes?

[Bushytale]

for your first AR get the 16 inch mid gas. The 16 inch is the best all around barrel length and will fulfill most of your basic needs. If I could only have one it would be 16 inch. The best way to deal with a 14.5 is a permanent flash hider. I would go with a Phantom instead of the Sabre Defense for less flash and you still get to 16. Going the SBR route for 14.5 just doesn't make sense to me.

[28_days]

for your first AR get the 16 inch mid gas. The 16 inch is the best all around barrel length and will fulfill most of your basic needs. If I could only have one it would be 16 inch. The best way to deal with a 14.5 is a permanent flash hider. I would go with a Phantom instead of the Sabre Defense for less flash and you still get to 16. Going the SBR route for 14.5 just doesn't make sense to me.

Though I'm no expert (waiting on my first AR), this is the route that I took. I did A LOT of research on ARs; spoke to many and spent countless hours on several forums. Going with a 16" was the overwhelming suggestion.

Personally I don't see the point of going 14.5 (w/o a FH that is). An extra 1.5" means nothing to me. I can understand if you're going with a 10 or 11 inch barrel, but otherwise I don't see the value.

If I were you I'd give Grant at G&R a call and get on the list for the forthcoming BCM mid-length uppers. Pair that up with a nice BUIS (or optic if you have the cash) and you'll have a perfect AR.

[jdp710]

I personally don't like ambi selectors.

I'd vote for the 16" midlength because I wouldn't want my only AR to have a FH perm attached. If you get a second then by all means get 14.5 with a perm FH.

The 16" vs 14.5" for CQB is way over blown in my opinion. I can hardly tell a difference. IMO, it's not even worth debating over.

Get the standard full auto BCG.

[Discipulus]

Why don't you like ambi-selectors? Are you left handed or right handed and left eye dominant?

[Army Chief]

The ambi selector debate breaks down largely along these two lines:

1. The right-handed/right-shouldered riflemen that have never needed nor desired such a component; therefore, they generally fail to see the relevance of the question. To them, it is a solution to a non-existent problem, and they just fall into line with everyone else. These are the guys that will innocuously give you a well-worn argument that effectively boils down to "I don't need one, and you shouldn't either."

2. The hard-use professionals who recognize the inherent dangers of developing habits/muscle memory biases toward a non-standard piece of kit which won't generally be available on the field of conflict. On the broader end of the spectrum, these were the ornery NCOs that wouldn't let you use a brass-deflector when you went to the range with an M16A1, because you weren't going to be issued one in combat. On the narrower end of the spectrum, these are the southpaw operators like Larry Vickers who are fully aware of the benefits, but who consider it more important to be able to seamlessly operate a baseline carbine under duress, no matter where/how/why they picked it up.

The truth is that most of us don't fall into either category, so the issue tends to generate a lot of anecdotal reaction that isn't really all that helpful.

I don't know of too many M4CN members that don't wish to seriously improve their skills, and become highly competent shooters. That said, sometimes we tend to take ourselves a bit too seriously, in that we get Hell-bent on preparing for an Apocalypse scenario, when our actual level of risk exposure is something considerably less. That's not to say that these choices are to be questioned, or that we're treading in poseur territory, but I do think an honest assessment of one's situation is germane to the discussion.

For example, I'm a left-handed shooter. My 1911s are equipped with ambi safeties. My ARs are not -- but likely will be at some point. Why not now? Because while I'm still on active duty, the possibility of me finding myself in harm's way and needing to operate someone else's weapon is a highly relevant concern. I choose to train the way I may actually have to fight, should I find myself in a SHTF scenario in combat.

Will this be the case in a few years' time when I have retired and moved on to civilian life? Likely not. The most likely SHTF scenario I will likely find myself in then will be home defense situation following a natural disaster or mass public disturbance. Since the only weapons I am likely to be able to employ in a situation like this are the ones that are sitting in my own safe, the need for cross-compatibility is minimized. If I have reconfigured my own equipment to suit my needs, and trained accordingly, then who is to say that I have made some grievous tactical error? That's pure foolishness.

Bottom line? Look at your needs, your objectives and your worst-case SHTF possibilities. If you're a professional operating as a member of a tactical team, then your priorities will probably dictate baseline compatibility. If you're a citizen/patriot seeking to refine your skills and defend hearth and home, then your priorities will probably permit you to make some non-baseline choices for convenience and customization. An honest, individual assessment is required here, and in my view you're the only one qualified to render judgment on the specifics of your situation.

Chief

[Battl3fr0nt]

go with the 16" middy you will be much better off, it is a way better setup then car lenth and as got telling the world you dont want to register your gun I dont think that is smart.. here in hawaii if you dont register your gun at HPD in 5 days the cops will be at your door, not sure how long you have where u live but still not a good thing to tell everyone..

[MassMark]

Army Chief - Just wanted to +1 your post - excellent reading.

[Failure2Stop]

go with the 16" middy you will be much better off, it is a way better setup then car lenth and as got telling the world you dont want to register your gun I dont think that is smart.. here in hawaii if you dont register your gun at HPD in 5 days the cops will be at your door, not sure how long you have where u live but still not a good thing to tell everyone..

I am fairly certain that what the post was about was the NFA barrel length issue in which one must register the weapon as an SBR if the barrel is under 16", along with a $200 check, which is required of the 14.5 guns unless a flash hider is permamently attached. The hassle is simply not worth the 1.5 inches of barrel.

OP-
I concur on the choice of a middie for your first carbine. Does everything an earth-person needs a carbine to do.

Ambi-Selector- I am a rightie, but train ambidexterously, so I am somewhat relevant to the topic. First, I think that anyone serious about the subject should train both sides. Secondly, I can take or leave the ambi-selectors. If you want it and prefer it, go for it. I really dont have a problem just keeping my left thumb on the left side of the gun though. Not saying that they are useless, just not essential.

The biggest ambidexterous issue with the AR platform is the CH. There are some solutions out there that work, but once again, while not useless they are not essential.

I manipulate the gun differently with the left hand than I do with the right because the left side of the gun is not a mirror image of the right side. It takes an appreciation of the layout and practice to become proficient at manipulation.

Just my 2 small pebbles.

[Warrior]

Nothing, but a 16" AR is the perfect size for a mid-length setup. Not only is it more reliable (which isn't much of an issue to begin with), but it causes less wear and tear. It generally breaks down like this:

14.5 and shorter: carbine
16: mid-length
18: intermediate
20+: rifle

Though nothing is definitive.

The Carbine, Mid length and rifle etc have to do with the length of the gas system not barrel length. For example a carbine has a 7" gas system so even if your barrel is 16" if you have a 7" gas system it would be considered a carbine. Intermediate length is I believe a proprietary system Noveske has for his 18 SPR barrels.

[RogerinTPA]

Chief makes excellent points and I tend to agree. The 16"middy is the best all around, do everything choice. I own one as well as a Colt 6920, also 16". The middy is a mild recoil shooter and doesn't have the problems associated with the traditional carbine length systems. Joining the others, 14.5 isn't worth it unless it's simply an itch you wanna scratch.

[spamsammich]

I wanted to see what the fuss was about middies so I built up a Sabre Defence 16" mid with the help of Rainier Arms to contrast with the 14.5" LMT I got from Grant. There is indeed a noticeable difference in recoil and when both are lubed up a lot, the mid throws less junk onto my glasses. (yes I believe a gasbuster would help)

I like both guns a lot, the carbine is lighter and easier to handle indoors despite the 16.1" barrel OAL. I run Vortex's on both guns so that isn't helping the mid in terms of compactness. But overall I find myself gravitating more toward the middy for longer sessions and everybody that shoots or handles it loves the cheek weld on the EMOD. I can see why people label the middy as a great all around gun and as a point of fact, I shot iron sights better with my mid. I'm not going to go and sell my 14.5" carbine, but with both rifles my BRD has been tamed somewhat. I'm not in a rush to build or acquire more guns.

I run a FA BCM bcg in the SD mid and LOVE it, the finish is slightly better than my LMT but I've read that LMT leaves machine marks in certain places to help identify their product. In my opinion, you can't go wrong with either bcg, I haven't had any problems at all with mine. To be clear, I run only FA bcgs in all the guns I build.

I personally haven't had problems with LMT or BCM, but both manufacturers have proven to be reasonable and eager to help with CS issues time and time again. I saw a thread on TOS where a defender lower had clearly been machined out of spec and LMT replaced it with one which had the same serial number because the guy was trying to SBR it. They only needed proof that the problem was on their end which is entirely reasonable.

I won't comment on the selector since I have yet to train ambi, but I clearly see the need to do so ;)

[28_days]

The Carbine, Mid length and rifle etc have to do with the length of the gas system not barrel length. For example a carbine has a 7" gas system so even if your barrel is 16" if you have a 7" gas system it would be considered a carbine. Intermediate length is I believe a proprietary system Noveske has for his 18 SPR barrels.

I understand that. Maybe I'm misreading your post? I was simply suggesting what gas system he should go for based on the length. Granted those are the common suggestions, not ones that I myself have experience with (well besides the 16" mid-length).

I believe you're correct on the intermediate comment.

[Discipulus]

Thanks for the great insight everyone.

Just to be clear, I was in no way insinuating that, if I purchased a 14.5", I was not going to register it. If/When I purchase anything less than 16", it will be registered.