Still think ceramic armor is "better" than steel?

[AndrewWiggin]

Is it ever really accurate to say that one thing is categorically "better" than another thing? I mean, except beer. Beer is definitely better than not having beer. For drinking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jEih2mAo1Y
0jEih2mAo1Y


While ceramic armor can stop some threats that steel armor can't and ceramic is sometimes marginally lighter (some steel plates are actually lighter than some ceramic plates of similar size), it is also thicker and less durable as well as significantly more expensive.

If .30-06 AP is a likely threat for you and if you can afford to replace a plate if you suspect it has been damaged, and if you expect that replacement plates will be available when you need them, ceramic may be a good choice.

If you don't think that armor piercing ammo is a high probability in your area, and if you intend to actually use your plates before they are needed, steel may give you more peace of mind.

Ceramic isn't quite as fragile as many would have you believe. If your plate carrier fell off your vehicle or if it is subjected to a bumpy road in your trunk, or if you trip and fall on a rock, it will probably still be fine. This test shows that a steel plate will still be fine and will survive much more than you can.

[lymanbishop]

Steel can blow spall up in your face. The anti-spall coatings are getting better but in my opinion as a mechanical engineer that has been in the armor industry for over 10 years, you need polymer / ceramic composite armor. Its light, durable and can handle multi-hits. There's a reason cops and military don't use steel. You can buy some at my site www.hoplitearmor.com 855-ARMOR-01

[AndrewWiggin]

Yeah, the reason is that they use our money to buy their armor and if they suspect damage, they can simply replace it immediately with another taxpayer purchased plate. Cops who buy their own armor often choose steel because of its durability. Private citizens who purchase armor often do so with the expectation that if they ever need it, there won't be a way to purchase a replacement in the event it is damaged.

The word "spall" refers to fragments of steel that can be loosened from the BACK of a plate and that doesn't really happen with steel body armor. What you're referring to is fragmentation, which is completely absorbed by a good fragmentation coating. It takes so many rounds to delaminate the frag coating that a ceramic plate would be a bag of gravel before a steel plate started letting fragments out.

Both are legitimate options, with different pros and cons.

[lymanbishop]

Wikipedia; Spall are flakes of a material that are broken off a larger solid body and can be produced by a variety of mechanisms, including as a result of projectile impact, corrosion, weathering, cavitation, or excessive rolling pressure (as in a ball bearing). Spalling and spallation both describe the process of surface failure in which spall is shed.

Webster
Definition of SPALL
transitive verb
: to break up or reduce by or as if by chipping with a hammer
intransitive verb
1
: to break off chips, scales, or slabs : exfoliate
2
: to undergo spallation


I cringe when I hear talk of steel plates. But what do I know? I'm just a mechanical engineer with a decade of experience working with body armor.

[AndrewWiggin]

Sorry, not just the back of the plate, but the key is that "spall" refers to pieces of steel from the armor. What we typically see from steel body armor are pieces of bullet. In any case, spall and bullet fragments are captured by the fragmentation coating.

[lymanbishop]

Sorry, not just the back of the plate, but the key is that "spall" refers to pieces of steel from the armor. What we typically see from steel body armor are pieces of bullet. In any case, spall and bullet fragments are captured by the fragmentation coating.

They are caught by rhino liner, until their not. That's a risky game to play to run with heavy ass plates. Not trying to disrespect your choice, just trying to inform.

[AndrewWiggin]

Fragments are caught by the coating until so many rounds have struck it that a ceramic plate would have been a bag of gravel. And by the way, once fragments do start getting through, it still brats the snot out of being shot in the chest.

[JackFanToM]

The whole "many rounds" thing strikes me as a bit off. I understand that modern armor is designed to take "multiple" impacts, but it is my understanding that those multiples are in a single encounter. I imagine even steel plates should be replaced after an encounter...if it was my life, I wouldn't want to chance it that either steel or ceramic wasn't compromised somewhat after being hit. I would also assume that not too many individuals have more than a few encounters where they have been saved by body armor, so I'd imagine, unless you plan to go into combat you probably aren't overly concerned with having to replace your plates. As for SHTF scenarios, fun to talk about but highly unlikely, so I wouldn't plan my plate replacement around end of the world scenarios.

[lymanbishop]

Fragments are caught by the coating until so many rounds have struck it that a ceramic plate would have been a bag of gravel. And by the way, once fragments do start getting through, it still brats the snot out of being shot in the chest.

I have spoken. You have been warned. Best of luck.

[AndrewWiggin]

The whole "many rounds" thing strikes me as a bit off. I understand that modern armor is designed to take "multiple" impacts, but it is my understanding that those multiples are in a single encounter. I imagine even steel plates should be replaced after an encounter...if it was my life, I wouldn't want to chance it that either steel or ceramic wasn't compromised somewhat after being hit. I would also assume that not too many individuals have more than a few encounters where they have been saved by body armor, so I'd imagine, unless you plan to go into combat you probably aren't overly concerned with having to replace your plates. As for SHTF scenarios, fun to talk about but highly unlikely, so I wouldn't plan my plate replacement around end of the world scenarios.

Not all armor is equal. Some ceramic plates will take more than others, but some can be be penetrated if one round strikes within an inch or two of another. The odds of that might be pretty low, but it can happen pretty easily at close range.

I agree that getting shot shouldn't be a lifestyle choice and if a plate is hit it should be replaced. If you can. Many people buy armor for SHTF/WROL, though.

[JackFanToM]

" Many people buy armor for SHTF/WROL, though."

Many people consider the show "The Walking Dead" a potential real world scenario...these people are not to be trusted, nor do I lend any credibility to the body armor purchases of said people.

[AndrewWiggin]

Lol, no, but a breakdown of civil order can and does and will happen. It is also possible that we see a lengthy period of unrest. If you purchase armor for use in such a scenario, durability and cost may be important factors. Again, ceramic and steel can both be the right answer, depending on your particular needs.

[ex95B10]

I think most people understand that ceramic is way better than steel but we just can't afford the extremely high price of ceramic.

[Kain]

Might be a concern if I was facing Hammerites. But, if I am going up against them I plan on being a bit more sneaky than kicking the door and shooting everything in the face. ;) Lol.


Okay, old video game references aside, I think both Ceramic and steel armor has it's place. I think the big reason we see a lot of cops running steel has more to do with cost then durability or protection. A personal observation here, but I think it is accurate. As far as which is better, I still default to, as with many things on this forum, mission drives the gear. Are there some places steel can suffice? I am sure.

[AndrewWiggin]

I think most people understand that ceramic is way better than steel but we just can't afford the extremely high price of ceramic.

Highcom's 4SAS7 is $180 for 10" x12" multi curve.

[rjacobs]

I have spoken. You have been warned. Best of luck.

I have no dog in this fight, but I think this is ****ing hilarious. Coming from a guy who is shilling his own brand of armor(against forum rules from what I can tell too). MY ARMOR IS BEST THERE EVER WAS, BUY IT NOW, I HAVE SPOKEN...


You can buy some at my site www.hoplitearmor.com 855-ARMOR-01

[AndrewWiggin]

I just want to point out the OP's a dumbass. This is in terminal Ballistics when it obviously belongs in tactical gear.

[lymanbishop]

I have no dog in this fight, but I think this is ****ing hilarious. Coming from a guy who is shilling his own brand of armor(against forum rules from what I can tell too). MY ARMOR IS BEST THERE EVER WAS, BUY IT NOW, I HAVE SPOKEN...

You have seriously misquoted me. This is why I hate dealing with people on forums. When I tell the truth about steel people get butthurt. Thats not my intention. I just want to inform people and keep them safe. If you read my other posts, I have "shilled" for several companies I compete with and have repeatedly stated that I am not trying to sell anything here. I am however, according to forum rules, supposed to say who I am affiliated with.

[AndrewWiggin]

I think it's reasonable to disclose the fact that you sell armor and I appreciate that you did. You have to understand that indicates some bias on your part, though. I do believe that your responses have been measured, but you still seem to be stuck on two outdated criticisms of steel plates.

[lymanbishop]

I think it's reasonable to disclose the fact that you sell armor and I appreciate that you did. You have to understand that indicates some bias on your part, though. I do believe that your responses have been measured, but you still seem to be stuck on two outdated criticisms of steel plates.

Keep in mind that I could sell steel plates and make a lot more money. I just dont due to my own personal analysis of them. I feel they are substandard and unsafe. I will however stop commenting on them as every time I do people get upset and thats not my intention.

[Koshinn]

What it basically comes down to is:

If you can't afford the best, go with steel. It has gotten better as a budget alternative.

If you place more value on your life and your back, if you have to navigate by compass, and if you have a fear of drowning, ceramic is the way to go.

[AndrewWiggin]

That's s fairly simplistic view. There things that ceramic does better and things that steel does better. Much depends on which plates we compare.

Compare the TTM/Spartan level III+ Armaply to the Highcom level IV 4SAS7. The TTM steel plate is lighter and thinner and the Highcom ceramic plate is less expensive. Sure, if you compare a genuine ESAPI to an older style level III AR500 plate with no frag coating, there is little advantage to the steel plate, but most ceramic plates aren't as durable as the ESAPI and most steel plates are far better than those old Level III plates. I just take issue with categorical statements.

[AndrewWiggin]

Hey....

Like your crank, we don't want to see that in public. Your PM function probably works just fine, so use it.

[JSantoro]

lymanbishop, we require that all those with industry affiliations state so publicly, be it as a manufacturer, vendor, trainer or whatever.

https://www.m4carbine.net/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item


5) Industry Disclosure – If you are an industry manufacturer/dealer or employed by one you must disclose this relationship through your screen name or signature line.

If you make and/or sell ballistic protection, you will ID your company and your affiliation to it in your signature line, since you're screen-name is already set.

Please see to this discrepancy before you post again.

[Sgt_Gold]

Ceramic isn't quite as fragile as many would have you believe. If your plate carrier fell off your vehicle or if it is subjected to a bumpy road in your trunk, or if you trip and fall on a rock, it will probably still be fine. This test shows that a steel plate will still be fine and will survive much more than you can.


I don't know what you're getting at, but if ceramic SAPI plates were as easy to damage as you say they are the military would be issuing steel. Falling off a vehicle after a bumpy ride is a staple of militar life, not to mention slamming your chest into hard stationary oblects. I agree steel is more economical if you're paying out of your own pocket, but ceramic is simply better as a product.

[AndrewWiggin]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that those events would damage the plate, just that we are advised to X-ray them off they take a knock. If that's not an option, there may be some making doubt, no matter how much the conscious side of your brain days everything is probably fine.