View Full Version : Sig 320 vs Glock
rebelsooner
11-19-15, 20:03
Thought it would be a worthy topic. I've have scoured the net reading and watching videos talking to many people including some LEO's, one of which is a close friend and it truly seems split other than the die hards who will only recommend their brand.
I was set on the cz and now I've put the breaks on it and I am now considering the two. If I went with glock, I would get the 17. It fits better and points better for me. But the sig is nice as well and seems to be gaining momentum. The same was said about the m&p and it seems to have dropped off for many reasons. It'll be for home/car/classes and maybe ccw. If I get the sig, it'll be the carry or concealed version.
Anyone have any thoughts or comments for the two? I had a g19 and sold it and have limited experience with the others. Is the g17 still good to go?
Thanks in advance
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Glock for me. Or HK.
Sig, as a company, has just totally turned me off badly over the years.
rebelsooner
11-19-15, 20:21
I would agree, especially with some of the other platforms but it seems their striker is a turn for them.
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If it fits and points better for you (and you shoot it better), get the Glock. No contest.
I think the 320 concept is cool, and the trigger is sweet. I enjoy shooting them. But the reliability, Gen 4 texture, grip, and part and mag availability and price hooks me on the Glocks.
waveslayer
11-19-15, 21:22
it's okay, I like it, don't love it. I prefer my dad's VP9 and his PPQ. but cool to have none the less. performance wise it has been flawless
After 40 or so years of shooting 1911s, I've been trying to switch over to glock over the last several years. I truly think the g17 is one of the finest combat handguns on the planet. My EDC is a g26.
Having said that, I must also say that shooting a glock has always been a battle. No other pistol or revolver has ever been as difficult to shoot as my damn glocks. I can - with a lot of effort - shoot POA=POI, but those SOBs truly do want to shoot low & left:)
I've been wanting to explore sigs with the hope of dropping my glocks. I want 9mm, and I'm 6'5" and 280#, so I can EDC the "carry" version of the 320 with no problem. (I carry my g26 with a g19 mag with no problem.). So - I, too, am interested in 320 feedback.
To complicate matters, I could even see going the 229/Legion route. For a variety of reasons, I am also interested in 229 vs 320 accuracy out to +/- 75m.
Looking forward to the comments and dicussions.
john
waveslayer
11-19-15, 21:48
I love my 228, 226 and 229... the 320 is unique because of the strike fire. Legion series seems like a novelty item.
I have both the G19 Gen4 and a P320c. I shot the G21SF extensively in LE (free ammo dude!). I'm not an expert by any means. I think the G19 is the perfect size for concealed carry I wish the P320c was the same size. I've always had some disagreements with the Glock trigger. It takes concerted effort for me to shoot it well. I can't complain about the reliability in spite of a few malfunctions. I never question if it will go bang. Low and friggin' left.... Though Glocks will always have a place in my life.
I have both the P320c and full size. I was looking at them and the VP9 but the Sigs followed me home. I like the grip and I really like the trigger, though it's not a PPQ. I've had no issues shooting the Sigs cold, PoA=PoI with them. The Glocks always required me a mag to warm up if I haven't shot them in a while.
rebelsooner
11-20-15, 01:36
Thanks for a good discussion so far. I, like jmoore, have carried 1911's and it is still my favorite. I have experienced the same issues y'all have mentioned with the Glocks and I know they'll go bang. They've been around and have a proven track record but the ergonomics kill me but I still am interested.
But I can say the same about the 320. To me, the 320 has great ergonomics, but I thought the same about the m&p. The big question is will the Sig step up and be what it's touted to be?
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BuzzinSATX
11-20-15, 06:16
Not trying to scuttle discussion, but there is a 70 page thread on the Sig 320, and much of it discusses the Sig-Glock comparison...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?156378-Sig-P320/page72
IN a nut shell, I don't think you could go wrong with either one. I have tons of experience and time with Glocks. They have always been my Go to weapon of choice. Simple, easy to operate, maintain, and reliable. I have the ability to modify the grips to my liking, so that narrows the gap between glocks an other platforms for me.
I also have a P320 CA model, and it is an excellent platform as well. It has proven just as easy to maintain, durable, and reliable. I have been carrying the 320 for a while now, and it has done everything I have asked of it and then some.
I have tried, owned and shot almost every other poly pistol out there. The Glock and the 320 work the best for me and both are very close competitors. With that being said, IMO, if I was not allowed to modify my glocks, then I would without reservation go with the Sig all the way. Out of the box the 320 is accurate, and fits my hands very well. For my Glocks to fit me as well as the 320, I required them to be modified. That adds to the overall cost factor between the two platforms.
With all that try both if you have the opportunity and go with the one that works best for you. I run them both, and it really depends on how I feel that day as to what I carry. I can shoot them both equally, with equal efficiency.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/40babe5b-eaf0-4db7-8a59-b1f2e648a049_zpsz0fhzwok.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/IMG_2125_zpsdkd7tebq.jpg
TXPO
I've owned both, but with my large palms I only get front/back grip contact w/the G19 whereas w/the P320 Compact w/large grip module I have all-around grip contact which I prefer (YMMV).
Tomac
waveslayer
11-20-15, 08:07
Not trying to scuttle discussion, but there is a 70 page thread on the Sig 320, and much of it discusses the Sig-Glock comparison...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?156378-Sig-P320/page72
who wants to read through 70 pages? good to start fresh
concreteguy
11-20-15, 08:33
who wants to read through 70 pages? good to start fresh
Only those looking to thoroughly research a subject.
rebelsooner
11-20-15, 08:41
I read every page of that thread as well and thought it would be a good start and good comparison to start a new one.
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waveslayer
11-20-15, 09:32
Only those looking to thoroughly research a subject.
yes if you want to waste your time, or just ask specifically what you are looking for. work smarter , not harder.
I own both a G17 and P320C and don't think you can go wrong with either. My P320C is smaller, has a much better trigger IMO, has been totally reliable (so has the G17) and I shoot it more accurately than the G17, so if I had to keep only one, it would be the SIG. The versatility to change grips and calibers, if one chooses, is also a nice option with the SIG.
I like the P320 concept and believe Sig did a good job executing the design (especially compared to the P250). I've only shot the full size 9mm version. Trigger is decent out of the box. Has an even higher bore axis which for me would take some time getting used to. It's not as flippy as the VP9 because there's more weight in the front of the slide. I'd like to shoot the compact version.
CanineCombatives
11-20-15, 10:24
After 23 years of mandated glock use I was doing everything better with the P320 platform within the first
100 rounds, I'm up to about 10k now and though I still like my glocks and wont sell them, the P320 system
is a step forward for me in every measurable performance benchmark.
If it fits and points better for you (and you shoot it better), get the Glock. No contest.
I think the 320 concept is cool, and the trigger is sweet. I enjoy shooting them. But the reliability, Gen 4 texture, grip, and part and mag availability and price hooks me on the Glocks.
I would argue that the SIG is probably more reliable (or at least not hitting people in the face with brace). Prices on 320's is also LESS than a Glock. The ability to change frames to match what your doing (for under $40) is awesome IMHO.
C4
waveslayer
11-20-15, 11:17
I would argue that the SIG is probably more reliable (or at least not hitting people in the face with brace). Prices on 320's is also LESS than a Glock. The ability to change frames to match what your doing (for under $40) is awesome IMHO.
C4
+1 for the Sig. it is a nice gun, besides the awesome looks compared to the Block... but I second the reliability it eats everything I feed it
Psalms144.1
11-20-15, 11:32
If I wasn't already HEAVILY invested in the GLOCK family (pistols, magazines, holsters, accessories, etc), I would start with the P320. I shot a P320 Compact 40 the other day, and the accuracy was exceptional. Can't compare the controllability in rapid fire apples-to-apples because I didn't have my G23 on hand to shoot side by side, but it wasn't terribly "flippy." Even with the sub-optimal factory NS, five shots into a single ragged, just above caliber hole at 7 yards was a pleasant "nice to meet you" group from a new pistol.
The trigger seemed lighter than any of my GLOCKs, and the reset is shorter, though not as "positive" as the GLOCK's reset. The grip (compact Medium) felt better in my hand than the G19 grip that I've logged well into 6 digits worth of rounds through in training over the last several decades.
The P320 is less "size efficient" than the Glock - for the same capacity, grip length is significantly longer with the Sig, and the Sig is heavier and wider than competitive GLOCK models. The GLOCK is INFINITELY easier to detail strip, and has a much simpler design, so it's much more suited to "tinkering" or in the field repair. The P320 has NOWHERE NEAR the aftermarket support that GLOCK has right now, but I predict that will change rapidly, especially if (when?) the P320 wins some of the "big name" government contracts for pistols currently on the market.
Hope those thoughts help!
If I correctly understand one of the major promoted benefits of the 320 is that the fire control group is the "FFL part." The grips, barrels, and slides are interchangeable without an FFL.
Is anyone switching things back and forth from grip sizes or calibers? Or, is it a pretty much one and done proposition?
waveslayer
11-20-15, 11:49
If I correctly understand one of the major promoted benefits of the 320 is that the fire control group is the "FFL part." The grips, barrels, and slides are interchangeable without an FFL.
Is anyone switching things back and forth from grip sizes or calibers? Or, is it a pretty much one and done proposition?
I switch calibers, nice to have two guns in one. a lot cheaper. I go 40 to 9.
You can change caliber / frame size / grip size / slide length... I have a P320c, then got a full size X-change kit for range/match use and finally a subcompact frame and mag for smallest concealment. Gun's are $500+/-, conversion kits are $319 (including night sights/mag/frame), and replacement grip modules are about $45. Mags can be had for $35 (all sizes). Not to mention with the conversion kit you can always scrounge spare parts if you need them.
Yes with the Glocks you can get a conversion barrel, parts if you need them (extractor/ejector/bearing) and mags. But I like the fact that I can go from subcompact/compact/carry/fullsize with a relatively small investment and keep everything consistent.
Just price a Glock slide, it's as much as the conversion kit!
dwhitehorne
11-20-15, 17:24
I've had a Glock 19 since 1994. Was issued a Glock 17 from 1994 to 1998. I have a weapons library at work with almost every caliber and size Glock they make. All that said I was issued the Sig 320CA at work about two months ago. I have never loved the Glock but you have to respect that is has set a standard over the years for a combat handgun. The 320 is a new kid on the block. I think the modular design has the potential to be revolutionary. The caliber xchange kits are expensive in my opinion but the ability to change the grip is a nice feature. Time will tell if the 320 can develop a reputation like the Glock 17/19. I personally prefer shooting the 320 over the Glock but everyone of us has an opinion. I don't think you can go wrong with either choice. Good luck, David
rebelsooner
11-20-15, 20:06
Comparing the two today and looking at the bore axis, they are complete opposites but I'm wondering if it's more perceived and not as big of an issue.
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Comparing the two today and looking at the bore axis, they are complete opposites but I'm wondering if it's more perceived and not as big of an issue.
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When actually shooting and manipulating the weapon its a non-issue.
A 70 page thread is too big and unwieldy to page through for specific comparison questions like this IMO.
rebelsooner
11-21-15, 01:47
When actually shooting and manipulating the weapon its a non-issue.
Thank you
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In regards to your comparison to the M&P line, Sig Sauer had a much larger foothold in the LE market then S&W. I have zero doubt that the 320 series will catch on and begin replacing the classic P series in Agencies across the country. My agency was die hard P220, and as soon as Safariland can unf@$k the 320 .45 holster we will make the switch. As a larger agency the smaller Sig carrying agencies will follow suit.
voiceofreason
11-21-15, 06:35
Shoot both for groups slow fire, shoot both for aimed timed fire, then ignore the groups and decide which you like best.
Then compare the groupings and see if that changes your opinion.
Most people "prefer" a gun based on subjective feel over effective results. If you don't like shooting it, you're not likely to practice with it.
I have always been a Glock fan and carried one daily. I bought the Sig320 when it came out and now my Glock sits in the safe. I still like the old gal but she doesn't get shot anymore. For me there is no question, the 320 is a far superior gun in every way. My highly unscientific research shows that everyone who has fired my 320 agrees. Just last weekend a buddy shot it and is now wanting to buy one for his wife. (I think it's an excuse for him to get one into the house but who am I to judge :) )
As other's have said, you can't go wrong with either of those choices, but since you are asking for opinions that is my two cents. Pick what you like the most.
Pros: Love the trigger on the 320, and it generally feels like a well put together gun.
Cons: the take down lever is unnecessarily obtrusive, the grip angle is drastically different from every other handgun I own (damn near 90*), and the magazines are expensive
I'll be sticking with the Glock, but maybe if they un**** the grip angle I would be willing to reconsider.
The sig is better in every way except parts availability. I carried a 17 and 21 on duty and a 19/30 off for several years at my first department. I am also an armored for Glock to add some background. My biggest gripes with the Glock were the weird grip angle (somewhat solved with a grip force), blocky grip and personally always grouping left.
The 320 fixes all of those issues for me in addition to allowing me to change my duty gun into my carry gun when needed which is nice. The biggest bonus for me is my left groupings disappeared with the large frame on the 320. Some of the affection may be due to learning on a 226, but after being forced into an m&p the 320 is even more awesome. When it comes to strikers the 320 is it for me. Feel free to ask any questions! Fwiw I'm up to around 4K through my full size with 0 issues of any kind.
After 40 or so years of shooting 1911s, I've been trying to switch over to glock over the last several years. I truly think the g17 is one of the finest combat handguns on the planet. My EDC is a g26.
Having said that, I must also say that shooting a glock has always been a battle. No other pistol or revolver has ever been as difficult to shoot as my damn glocks. I can - with a lot of effort - shoot POA=POI, but those SOBs truly do want to shoot low & left:)
I've been wanting to explore sigs with the hope of dropping my glocks. I want 9mm, and I'm 6'5" and 280#, so I can EDC the "carry" version of the 320 with no problem. (I carry my g26 with a g19 mag with no problem.). So - I, too, am interested in 320 feedback.
To complicate matters, I could even see going the 229/Legion route. For a variety of reasons, I am also interested in 229 vs 320 accuracy out to +/- 75m.
Looking forward to the comments and dicussions.
john
The 320 should clean up those low/left issues. I'm 6'5 300# and use the large frame, it's a tack driver no matter how hard you crank on the grip. I was told it's because the FCU isn't actually connected to the frame like a Glock/m&p.
I'm not much help as far as the 229 vs 320 as I split time between my 228 and 320c :)
Shoot both for groups slow fire, shoot both for aimed timed fire, then ignore the groups and decide which you like best.
Then compare the groupings and see if that changes your opinion.
Most people "prefer" a gun based on subjective feel over effective results. If you don't like shooting it, you're not likely to practice with it.
That's exactly what I did with mine. I can keep 10 rounds in a single hole out to 7 yds with the 320, not so with the Glock. That and the hole is dead center not a few inches left haha.
Here are some targets as fast as I can shoot (10 yds):
Glock 17 (duty gun with around 7K through it) on the left and 320 (new to me at the time) on the right
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/21/2c869844223980494c78a13402f114fa.jpg
And a funny photo comparing the two:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/21/51654095b6bc75b63b627fd54a0e2ff3.jpg
Evel Baldgui
11-21-15, 10:09
I've carried a glock 19 for years, I shoot it well. I tried a p320 about 2-3 months ago, I shoot it better. After approx 900-1000 trouble free rds, my EDC is the p320. I was VERY hesitant about buying a SIG, given alleged history of QC issues, but the p320 is just right!
I've been a long time Glock fan boy, carrying a G23/G22 for work and taking the armorer's class back in 2004 I think. Loved the older ones, love the Gen 3's. Uprgraded to the Gen4 and hate em. Bought a P320 out of desperation for a medium size 9mm that was accurate, reliable and easy to shoot. Add in the versatility of the P320 and it's a winner.
Talking about easy to shoot. For me, my wife and daughter it's been one of the easiest guns to shoot right out of the box. Not much learning of the trigger, no need for more or less trigger finger, grip pressure etc. Align the sights, press the trigger, shots go where they are supposed to. It's been that way for just about everyone who's shot it. I'd compare it with my PPQ but better. We like them so much we "adopted" the platform and me, wife and daughter are running P320c's.
rebelsooner
11-21-15, 19:43
Thank you all for the insight. I think I'm going to get the sig. In the end, if it's no good, it'll be easy to find the replacement.
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Thank you all for the insight. I think I'm going to get the sig. In the end, if it's no good, it'll be easy to find the replacement.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good choice, the 320's are very hot right now, doubt you'll have any issues.
Pros: Love the trigger on the 320, and it generally feels like a well put together gun.
Cons: the take down lever is unnecessarily obtrusive, the grip angle is drastically different from every other handgun I own (damn near 90*), and the magazines are expensive
I'll be sticking with the Glock, but maybe if they un**** the grip angle I would be willing to reconsider.
I agree with the take down lever, so much so I had one modified to resolve the issue.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/IMG_2051_zps1kx5ed5o.jpg
As far as the grip, Your comment is typically what I hear from people about the Glock. While it is different on the 320, it is closer to most other manufacturers grip angles, at least closer than the Glock. The again my Glocks grips are modified and not very glock like anymore either. :)
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/DSC_0020_zpssiuvwwck.jpg
TXPO
I like the angle on the Sig but do wish it was a bit flatter (Glock like) on the sides. I know an easy fix if I wanted to take the time and do one, in fact I have a few spares!
teutonicpolymer
11-22-15, 13:22
I think the p320 is very well thought out and would spring for it over most Glocks (excluding special ones like the G20).
I agree with the take down lever, so much so I had one modified to resolve the issue.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/IMG_2051_zps1kx5ed5o.jpg
As far as the grip, Your comment is typically what I hear from people about the Glock. While it is different on the 320, it is closer to most other manufacturers grip angles, at least closer than the Glock. The again my Glocks grips are modified and not very glock like anymore either. :)
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/DSC_0020_zpssiuvwwck.jpg
TXPO
Who did the work on your take down lever?
Who did the work on your take down lever?
mod1firearms.com
Great guy to deal with. He has done quite a bit of machine work for me. I highly recommend him.
TXPO
mod1firearms.com
Great guy to deal with. He has done quite a bit of machine work for me. I highly recommend him.
TXPO
Thanks! So it's completely flat now? How are you liking it compared to factory?
Thanks! So it's completely flat now? How are you liking it compared to factory?
It is perfect now. I use it for my support thumb, and it doesn't get beat but up by the edges. I essentially had him build it like the original P250 take down levers. It is a tad harder to use for take down, but I'll take that trade off for the better feel during shooting
TXPO
It is perfect now. I use it for my support thumb, and it doesn't get beat but up by the edges. I essentially had him build it like the original P250 take down levers. It is a tad harder to use for take down, but I'll take that trade off for the better feel during shooting
TXPO
Absolutely. Appreciate the feedback!
mod1firearms.com
Great guy to deal with. He has done quite a bit of machine work for me. I highly recommend him.
TXPO
Wow thanks for the tip, they should come that way from Sig. I know a lot of people use the take down as a "gas pedal" per se' but I prefer it flat like every other Sig/M&P etc...
Wow thanks for the tip, they should come that way from Sig. I know a lot of people use the take down as a "gas pedal" per se' but I prefer it flat like every other Sig/M&P etc...
Sig has a redesigned one in the works. No idea about time frame, but the take down lever complaint was brought to their attention more than once. LE rep says he figures it won't be too long before they have them. He said they were working on the slide release and take down lever at the same time so he guessed they would be released close together as well. The new optional slide release has started shipping so the take down lever may show up very soon.
TXPO
azeriosu85
11-23-15, 22:26
Am I the only one who thinks it's odd and a tad worrysome the 320 does not have a trigger safety? I know "this is my safety", but coming from glocks, i would NEVER have a glock without a Trigger safety...why is it soo accepted on the 320?
Hemoglobin
11-23-15, 22:59
Am I the only one who thinks it's odd and a tad worrysome the 320 does not have a trigger safety? I know "this is my safety", but coming from glocks, i would NEVER have a glock without a Trigger safety...why is it soo accepted on the 320?
I'm assuming you mean the piece of plastic you have to depress to pull the trigger? It's probably accepted because that piece of plastic didn't stop certain holsters from making holes in legs, it didn't stop that very viral DEA agent from discharging the gun. I mean, its in the center of the trigger and takes nothing to engage. It was only put on there to claim as an additional safety. To put that in perspective, my father is 63 years old. He will not buy a glock or the like because there is no manual safety. I really think glock was trying to just warm that group over.
Thats 100% opinion based, but It seems logical to me at least lol.
azeriosu85
11-23-15, 23:05
I'm assuming you mean the piece of plastic you have to depress to pull the trigger? It's probably accepted because that piece of plastic didn't stop certain holsters from making holes in legs, it didn't stop that very viral DEA agent from discharging the gun. I mean, its in the center of the trigger and takes nothing to engage. It was only put on there to claim as an additional safety. To put that in perspective, my father is 63 years old. He will not buy a glock or the like because there is no manual safety. I really think glock was trying to just warm that group over.
Thats 100% opinion based, but It seems logical to me at least lol.
no need to be an ass about it. Appreciate your passionate opinion.
Hemoglobin
11-23-15, 23:12
no need to be an ass about it. Appreciate your passionate opinion.
I wasn't being an ass. All I said was it doesn't really do anything, while citing random examples. Chill out or get your estrogen levels checked.
Am I the only one who thinks it's odd and a tad worrysome the 320 does not have a trigger safety? I know "this is my safety", but coming from glocks, i would NEVER have a glock without a Trigger safety...why is it soo accepted on the 320?
I know glock calls it a safety designed to prevent inadvertent trigger movement, but if you look at it, what does it really prevent. If something gets enough bite on the trigger to pull it rearward, it will likely depress the tab, since it doesn't take much effort to press it. It is also to prevent reward travel in the event of a drop, although in most case it would take a ton of force to cause the trigger to travel rearward enough to release the striker, at least in the Glock. The 320's trigger bar differs from other striker pistols as it move forward to disengaged the sear compared to others that move rearward. Thus dropping the 320 rearward would not move the trigger bar releasing the striker. The trigger safety tab or hinged trigger on most striker guns is simply there as a feel good part for the folks who like safeties on their weapons.
FWIW if you or your dept requires the little trigger tab safety, Sig can put it on the 320 for you, it is an option. Personally, I have don't rely on any mechanical safety device to prevent a weapon from firing. It's a bad habit to get into, and a training deficiency to assume a weapon will not fire if a safety device is engaged. This is my own opinion of course and you know what they say about those...:).
TXPO
Totally agree that if something was going to press on a sig 320 trigger, and the same thing was going to press on a glock trigger - BOTH would fire. OTOH - ignoring the drop aspect, most also would not feel at ease carry a cocked and UNlocked 1911 around (even with a 6# trigger) - and that is fundamentally what we are talking about in either case. Folks just don't think of it from that point of view. Your brain, your finger, and your holster are all part of the safety equation.
john
Rigid holsters do far more to protect you than a flippy lever or hinged trigger. We had a guy at quals launch one thru his leg reholstering with the old thumb break SSIII 070 holsters. Oddly enough they wouldn't authorize hooded holsters at that time.
High Altitude
11-24-15, 17:55
I'm assuming you mean the piece of plastic you have to depress to pull the trigger? It's probably accepted because that piece of plastic didn't stop certain holsters from making holes in legs, it didn't stop that very viral DEA agent from discharging the gun. I mean, its in the center of the trigger and takes nothing to engage. It was only put on there to claim as an additional safety. To put that in perspective, my father is 63 years old. He will not buy a glock or the like because there is no manual safety. I really think glock was trying to just warm that group over.
Thats 100% opinion based, but It seems logical to me at least lol.
All the safeties are on the pistol for one reason, to prevent the pistol from firing (usually from the pistol being dropped) unless you or something else pulls the trigger.
The trigger safety prevents the trigger bar from moving to the rear, the drop safety prevents the trigger bar from moving down and the firing pin safety prevents the firing pin from hitting the primer if for whatever reason the striker slips off the trigger bar.
I have no idea why people think the trigger safety is suppose to prevent the trigger from being pulled during reholstering or a ND, but lots think that way.
All the safeties are on the pistol for one reason, to prevent the pistol from firing (usually from the pistol being dropped) unless you or something else pulls the trigger.
The trigger safety prevents the trigger bar from moving to the rear, the drop safety prevents the trigger bar from moving down and the firing pin safety prevents the firing pin from hitting the primer if for whatever reason the striker slips off the trigger bar.
I have no idea why people think the trigger safety is suppose to prevent the trigger from being pulled during reholstering or a ND, but lots think that way.
Well put.
no need to be an ass about it. Appreciate your passionate opinion.
High Altitude presented the correct answer about Glocks.
Other guns have other drop safety designs and my guess is the 320 does as well but I don't know what it is.
I agree with the take down lever, so much so I had one modified to resolve the issue.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/IMG_2051_zps1kx5ed5o.jpg
Did he just mill off the top/add the grooves and refinish? Wondering since I like that change and have a Bridgeport sitting in the garage. :D
Pretty much the firing pin (striker) plunger serves that purpose on the 320/glock/m&P/series 80 etc.. I think the intent of it was a muzzle down fall causing enough inertia to strike and ignite a primer. That's why you'll see titanium firing pins and extra power springs in non series 80 1911's usually. I think the only guns I have that don't have some sort of firing pin block is my Baer and S/A 1911's.
Did he just mill off the top/add the grooves and refinish? Wondering since I like that change and have a Bridgeport sitting in the garage. :D
That is exactly what was done, along with a slight radius on the side facing the hand. Pretty straight forward if you have the equipment for it. Made a world of difference for me. I have an index point for my thumb, but the sharp edges don't beat it to death anymore.
TXPO
Eurodriver
12-01-15, 09:58
Every time some new polymer wonder gun gets released, the usual suspects always point to Glock and says "Haha, it (M&P, VP9, XD...) does this and this and this better than Glock" but they never top Glock in production numbers, sales, LE issue figures, or anything. Their only reference to how it is better is pointing to top name instructors who get the guns for free.
Someone wake me up when there is a $400 G19 sized 9mm polymer framed gun that I can find spare parts kits for at literally every gun shop in America, magazines on the cheap, and an aftermarket following that borders on fanaticism.
But even then, it will only be tied with a $400 G19.
ETA: Ryno, you're up... ;)
Every time some new polymer wonder gun gets released, the usual suspects always point to Glock and says "Haha, it (M&P, VP9, XD...) does this and this and this better than Glock" but they never top Glock in production numbers, sales, LE issue figures, or anything. Their only reference to how it is better is pointing to top name instructors who get the guns for free.
Someone wake me up when there is a $400 G19 sized 9mm polymer framed gun that I can find spare parts kits for at literally every gun shop in America, magazines on the cheap, and an aftermarket following that borders on fanaticism.
But even then, it will only be tied with a $400 G19.
ETA: Ryno, you're up... ;)
Glock has a long standing strong hold. What will help SIG gain a much larger piece of the pie (at least LE) is an FBI contract. As an avid Glock collector and shooter, I like the 320 better than the Glock. Random checking barrel hood to slide fit tells me that it is a more accurate gun than the Glock is.
C4
And at one point, nothing had overtaken the S&W revolver as the service weapon of choice. Past results do not guarantee future returns ;)
Eurodriver
12-01-15, 13:01
The 320 has things going for it that appeal to me. It certainly has potential and that's something I've never attributed to M&P, XD, VP9, etc. I like that there are no finger grooves. I like the rail. I like the front and rear dovetail sights. I like the grip angle. I like that it is modular, and although I haven't seen it in person I would obviously appreciate it being more accurate than a stock Glock.
The issue, and it has been this way for at least 10 years, is that for someone/an agency so heavily invested in Glocks what do any of these new polymer guns offer that is worth the transition expense? I suppose I view this differently than the average gun owner who buys one of everything (The only pistols I own are Glock 19s) but since this is indeed a Glock vs Sig 320 thread so things such as this are acceptable to say - what is the benefit to the end user going with a Sig 320 right now? Slightly better accuracy? You can buy two G19 magazines for the price of one 320 magazine. It doesn't make sense yet. I'm not even a huge department and if I were to transition to Sig I'd have to spend thousands getting new holsters, threaded barrels, guns, magazines, etc for little practical benefit. If you have neither and are starting from scratch, you don't have that initial outlay of costs but kind of have to hope the 320 doesn't end up like the M&P series.
I am not closed minded despite what Ryno thinks. In all seriousness, I hope the 320 really takes off because it's win win for the consumer. Glock will have to get its head out of its ass and start making quality kit and becoming more innovative, or the Sig 320 will take over and it will have cheap magazines, holsters, and spare parts at every gun store in America...then I will own them. But only then.
CanineCombatives
12-01-15, 13:07
Yep, it's also ergonomically better, not just in grip feel, but overall operation.
I dont need to advocate for it anymore, FBI contract aside, the global demand from mil/le
is already staggering, the contract (when it happens) will just accelerate the time frame.
The reasons I just went out and bought a 320 Compact last night.......
(and a little related history)....
1) I'm a geezer who shot 1911s for several decades - and loved the platform.
2) I could shoot 1911s VERY well, but wanted more ammo capacity and less recoil (arthritis).
3) I tried an early M&P 9, must have gotten the batch with piss poor accuracy (and a few other issues). Sold it.
4) I eventually got to the point where I felt that overall, the Glock 17 was a better all-around combat weapon, so started attempting a transition 8-10 years back. My EDC is a Glock 26.
5) For a variety of reasons, I fall into the "Glocks shoot low or left" crowd - AND THAT HAS ALWAYS PISSED ME OFF TO NO END!!!!!! NO other weapon I own or have owned has done that. And while some will say it is a user problem, as a (forensic) scientist, I am convinced that there is a design component to the low/left problem.
6) After I read the second or third review stating that the 320 solved the low/left issue for many longtime Glock shooters - I KNEW I had to try one.
Am now waiting for our idiotic 3-day waiting period to finish so I can pick it up and head out shooting this weekend. I will gladly trade increased bore height/muzzle flip for a gun that shoots where I point the damn thing:)
Will keep you updated.
geezer john
CanineCombatives
12-01-15, 19:14
Great point, often glossed over. I think you'll find your dead nuts with the 320, I also think you'll be astounded by the accuracy in general.
I've owned over a 1/2 dozen Glocks since my first Gen1 G17 obtained way back in the day. Also worked at a rental range for a while and had every model of Glock available to me whenever I wanted. Love the Glocks for sure, but I'd go Sig 320 without the slightest reservation. Like many here... when you shoot a type of pistol for 30 years, then pick up something new, that from the first magazine easily out shoots your preferred pistol... You start to carry a new pistol.
azeriosu85
12-02-15, 02:17
just watched a disassembly video of the 320 striker.....Them small ass parts and springs though!! :suicide2:
just watched a disassembly video of the 320 striker.....Them small ass parts and springs though!! :suicide2:
In my quest for a better trigger, I was curious/brave/stupid enough to totally disassemble the FCU and striker. There are a lot of einsey weinsey little springs and pins in there. Really einsey weinsey! I bent 1 spring, lost another and broke the safety tab lever, which as I found out is very fragile with the slightest bit of lateral pressure. Parts replacement for the 320 right now isn't the best. It's been over a week I've been waiting for the safety tab lever and will be waiting for another 2 weeks or so.
The upside is, the contact points have all been smoothed. Can't wait to get it back together again.
As to the OP's question, haven't decided yet which I like better between the G19 and 320C. The 320 is easier to be accurate with for sure, but I don't know how it handles at speed yet and the G19 is more size efficient.
Yet another glock killer that won't be...
It took them 32 years to come up with a pistol with 52 parts that is no better than a 35 parts glock.
Take all this for what it's worth coming from the view of a Glock person, and LE officer, firearms instructor, and general idiot most of the time. :)
I am solidified in the Glock platform and have been been for almost 20 years. As a lot of you know I do some work on glocks as well as other poly guns. I highly respect the Glock platform for what it is and does. It is a simplistic combat weapon that is easily maintainable by the end user.
I have tried just about every other poly striker out there at one time or another. Until the 320, I had not found any other poly striker that would work as well for me and my standards as glock. Many years of shooting glocks have allowed me to become pretty efficient and accurate with them. As others have said, the very first shots I ever put through a 320 were as dead on as with my Glocks, and that was with my modified G19. At that point I needed to really look at this platform. I didn't want to like it, cause I was never really impressed with the 250, and I like, so many others thought it was just a fancied up 250.
The 320 was designed to be a duty/combat weapon without a doubt. It is designed to be completely modular, and I mean everything including striker assemblies and fire controls. If a part fails, or has an issue, then the entire assembly can be changed and it is back up and running. The 320 wasn't designed to be stripped down past field stripping by anyone other than armorers. Armorer training makes you aware of all the little parts that can get away and get lost. Armorer Certification also allows you to obtain parts from the mother ship that aren't available in general, right now. That is how Sig has always built their guns, to be serviced by armorers. How many of you have owned a P220/229/226 and were completely happy with it and weren't worried about tearing it down to the frame?, or if you could buy some little spring thingy.
When Glocks first came out the same held true for them. They were designed to be a service grade weapon, and any detailed stripping and parts changes were to be done by Armorers. Armorer certification was pretty difficult to get as you needed to be a gunshop/FFL retailer, or LE officer/instructor and the courses were limited. You couldn't get parts unless you were an armorer, and they weren't readily available. The popularity of the Glock grew and we now have the current state of things, parts everywhere, tons of aftermarket support etc. etc.
Over time so many folks learned how to strip Glocks completely down, and it ruined us to the point that most everyone feels they should be able to completely tear apart whatever firearm it is they own. It is one of the benefits of the Glock is being able to do it, but if a particular platform has a service life of 10k plus rounds only needing a guide rod and return spring change, then why care if you can completely tear it down to the frame, and that includes the Glock.
There were a ton of revolvers, 1911's, Browning HP, Sig P220/226/ and 229 in LE holsters for many years with thousands of rounds through them and no one ever worried about complete tear downs with those platforms.
I digress, the main reasoning behind the huge aftermarket support for glocks is the never ending search for a better trigger, improved controls, or ergonomics. Most all of your newer Poly striker platforms don't suffer from these deficiencies, the M&P, VP9, PPQ, FNS, P320 the list goes on and on. So with that in mind, who cares if they have more parts, or you can't tear them all the way down with ease. If it works well, what is the need?.
IMO, and I have had to retrain my mindset as well, back to the old school way, if it ain't broke kind of thing. In general I think some folks miss out of trying some really good weapons, because they aren't as simple as a glock. Sometimes less is more, sometimes it isn't. I personally have no issues with more parts, as long as it doesn't create reliability issues, and improves performance.
As far as the 320 making inroads into LE, it stands a very good chance. Sig is pushing this thing hard, I purchased my 320 CA from them directly, and it was less than a blue label glock and that included the three mags and night sights. Sig has a long standing name in LE and Gov/Mil, and so that gives them an advantage. Glock will forever be in the LE market, of that there is no doubt. I do think with all the other viable alternatives and the impending FBI contract up for grabs, we could see another company taking a big chunk of that market. Whoever gets that contract will pull a ton of advertising.
I know what your thinking, who cares what the FBI chooses. While I agree with this, it still remains a fact that a lot of LE agencies are run by folks who have attended the FBINA and they want to be like "Mike" when it comes to the FBI.
I am off my soapbox now....:)
TXPO
I digress, the main reasoning behind the huge aftermarket support for glocks is the never ending search for a better trigger, improved controls, or ergonomics. Most all of your newer Poly striker platforms don't suffer from these deficiencies, the M&P, VP9, PPQ, FNS, P320 the list goes on and on. So with that in mind, who cares if they have more parts, or you can't tear them all the way down with ease. If it works well, what is the need?. TXPO
Good point and it is the same way I feel. I like my Glock 19s, and in general all the mid-sized Glocks I have owned over the years. But, I have never found the need to add a bunch of after market parts with the exception of sights. I immediately remove and ditch the stock sights on any new Glock I buy. Other than that, and installing Apex extractors in two Gen 4 Model 19s because the stock extractors gave severe brass to face behavior, I leave my Glocks stock. The bazillion accessories available for Glocks mean nothing to me and certainly isn't the reason I have used them over the years. After market parts availability are a non-issue when I buy a new handgun. Other than a holster and possibly new sights, I don't buy after market parts.
By the way, I currently own, or have owned, all the "newer" polymer guns you mention except the 320. They have all been fine the way they came in the box and I have never bought an after market part for any of them. I may change the sights on one of them in the future but that's it. I have been looking and will buy a 320 sometime in the coming months although I can't jump into the Glock versus 320 fight since I don't yet have a 320. Looking forward to it though.
Just my opinion. Yours may vary and that's okay.
TXPO,
I agree with what your saying. But for me atleast parts availability is still a priority.
The reasons I just went out and bought a 320 Compact last night.......
(and a little related history)....
1) I'm a geezer who shot 1911s for several decades - and loved the platform.
2) I could shoot 1911s VERY well, but wanted more ammo capacity and less recoil (arthritis).
3) I tried an early M&P 9, must have gotten the batch with piss poor accuracy (and a few other issues). Sold it.
4) I eventually got to the point where I felt that overall, the Glock 17 was a better all-around combat weapon, so started attempting a transition 8-10 years back. My EDC is a Glock 26.
5) For a variety of reasons, I fall into the "Glocks shoot low or left" crowd - AND THAT HAS ALWAYS PISSED ME OFF TO NO END!!!!!! NO other weapon I own or have owned has done that. And while some will say it is a user problem, as a (forensic) scientist, I am convinced that there is a design component to the low/left problem.
6) After I read the second or third review stating that the 320 solved the low/left issue for many longtime Glock shooters - I KNEW I had to try one.
Am now waiting for our idiotic 3-day waiting period to finish so I can pick it up and head out shooting this weekend. I will gladly trade increased bore height/muzzle flip for a gun that shoots where I point the damn thing:)
Will keep you updated.
geezer john
I too suffered from the left grouping glocks. With a large frame my 320's are dead on :) love the platform and have since sold all my glocks.
What's this "left grouping" everyone is talking about? Oh wait...
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg68/mstarmer/Glock23_25yrds.jpg (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/mstarmer/media/Glock23_25yrds.jpg.html)
P320 with Full size kit;
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg68/mstarmer/IMG_0195-1.jpg (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/mstarmer/media/IMG_0195-1.jpg.html)
I'm convinced it has something to do with the grip angle and trigger finger geometry.
TXPO,
I agree with what your saying. But for me atleast parts availability is still a priority.
I've needed a couple of parts and just called them. Went out their way to get me what I needed quickly. One was a bad sight and one was a part my wife had inadvertently bent by launching her slide off the front of the bench reassembling the pistol. The one downfall to being proficient with a glock (she is) you get used to just racking the slide on and it's done. Do that on any other pistol and you've launched that slide an impressive distance.
I'm convinced it has something to do with the grip angle and trigger finger geometry.
I think there's numerous factors. What's funny is my Gen 3 Glock 27 is one of my best shooting pistols. Can barely get three fingers on it but it shoots straight. Gen 4 is just enough of a change I'm just not able to adjust to it. Here's my G27 at 25yd offhand.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg68/mstarmer/IMG_0049.jpg (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/mstarmer/media/IMG_0049.jpg.html)
TXPO,
I agree with what your saying. But for me atleast parts availability is still a priority.
I hear ya, it is important for me as well, which is why I am slated for the armorers school first of the year. Sig has been really good about getting things out to me, but the downside is you have to deal with Sig directly for most things right now. Glock was the same way when it first showed up as well, especially when agencies started adopting it, parts were like hens teeth since they were distributing what they had to agency armorers. I suspect the same to be true for Sig. Parts are going to be scarce for a while until things get more up to speed.
I still don't think we will ever see the same aftermarket support for the 320 like there is for the Glock. Again that goes back to my earlier posting, there isn't a whole lot that need to be done to the pistol, thus no need to spend lots of money for R&D on aftermarket parts. As long as Sig or some third party vendor can build up a good supply of factory replacement parts that are easily sourced, then everything should be GTG.
Once thing to consider with Sig and everyone else other than Glock, they are manufacturing other pistols and rifles. Glocks platform is pretty much the same across the board and the majority of the smaller parts are generic across the line. In other words, glock can produce thousands of slide locks and they fit the majority of their line. That is also the good thing about the Sig modularity, parts should work across the entire line. I haven't been able to check it out yet, but I am curious if the striker assembly, fire control assembly, the part with the sear and some of the other parts are the same on all the 320's including the 45's. We know the fire control unit chassis is different, but are the mechanical working parts the same? If so, then Sig will be in a good place once parts manufacturing catches up. If the 320 takes off like Sig is hoping it does, I suspect their parts manufacturing for it specifically will increase somewhat. At least that is how they should handle it.
TXPO
High Altitude
12-06-15, 15:21
If Sig would already have all the various frames/parts available for end users to swap/modify etc..... that would make a big difference in sales.
I think the days of not providing your customers with small parts are over if you want to compete in today's market. People like to play gunsmith, including myself, and gun owners today are much more educated and skilled compared to before. More people than ever have milling machines, lathes, CNC machines, 3D printers etc... right in their own garage than ever before. It really is getting to the point that people can perform major modifications or produce parts right at home if they want and it is becoming more common all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if in another 10 years it starts to get more common for people to share designs and build firearms from scratch.
If I can't get parts that are readily available and if the aftermarket doesn't want to support, I don't want to get involved in that platform.
Even though I am completely trenched in right now with Glock, I do own lots of other pistols, mainly M&P and CZ. I am ecstatic of all the choices out there and the new designs hitting the market all the time. I have no problem dropping glock completely as my primary if I found something that checked all the boxes and was significantly better. I am still baffled that in over 30 years no one can design a service pistol with less parts, simpler, lighter or some significant ground breaking new design than a glock. Just think of all the technology advances in the last 30 years. Still blows me away to think glock has locked down the market all these years. It is slowly changing though which I welcome with open arms.
If Sig would already have all the various frames/parts available for end users to swap/modify etc..... that would make a big difference in sales.
I think the days of not providing your customers with small parts are over if you want to compete in today's market. People like to play gunsmith, including myself, and gun owners today are much more educated and skilled compared to before. More people than ever have milling machines, lathes, CNC machines, 3D printers etc... right in their own garage than ever before. It really is getting to the point that people can perform major modifications or produce parts right at home if they want and it is becoming more common all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if in another 10 years it starts to get more common for people to share designs and build firearms from scratch.
If I can't get parts that are readily available and if the aftermarket doesn't want to support, I don't want to get involved in that platform.
Even though I am completely trenched in right now with Glock, I do own lots of other pistols, mainly M&P and CZ. I am ecstatic of all the choices out there and the new designs hitting the market all the time. I have no problem dropping glock completely as my primary if I found something that checked all the boxes and was significantly better. I am still baffled that in over 30 years no one can design a service pistol with less parts, simpler, lighter or some significant ground breaking new design than a glock. Just think of all the technology advances in the last 30 years. Still blows me away to think glock has locked down the market all these years. It is slowly changing though which I welcome with open arms.
It still blows me away that glocks shoot left :)
High Altitude
12-09-15, 15:28
It still blows me away that glocks shoot left :)
I use to think so too until I really started to work on my trigger control. I still shoot other pistols better though that also come much more natural to me.
The pic on the bottom was the very first magazine out of the pistol. 7 yards, off hand, federal 115g fmj. I was surprised at how well I shot it, since I wasn't going for ultimate accuracy. Immediately after I shot the 5 round group (first pic) concentrating on accuracy. 7 yards, off hand, winchester 147g jhp.
It is a good shooting pistol.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/myphotos27/gen4195shotgroup.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/myphotos27/gen419firstmag.jpg
High Altitude
12-09-15, 15:45
Here is 10 yards, off hand. 45 rounds COM, 5 round group off hand trying for accuracy in the head. You can see I started to drift left a little when shooting to the COM so tried to make the trigger control correction when shooting the group and over corrected. First time shooting the Gen4 and it was a little different since the LOP to the trigger is slightly less than my Gen3 glocks.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/myphotos27/DSC01107.jpg
That little tiny reduction in reach on a Gen 3 vs. Gen 4 makes all the difference in the world for me. Like the poster above, my Gen 4 19 is amazingly accurate and left hits are a thing of the past for me.
That little tiny reduction in reach on a Gen 3 vs. Gen 4 makes all the difference in the world for me. Like the poster above, my Gen 4 19 is amazingly accurate and left hits are a thing of the past for me.
I carried a gen 3 21sf and gen 4 17 on duty, a gen 3 30 and 19 off duty. Had left hits across all of them. Thousands of rounds across the board and could never straighten them out. Tried pretty much everything, including countless hours with range staff. Oh well.
The 320 hits dead on for me and I like the feel of the trigger more. Now just hoping the parts can catch up!
Photo of my then duty 17 and brand new 320, as fast as I can shoot at 7 yds:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/10/5f81f66ae4c12f1bacdf6484fc79c1dc.jpg
I carried a gen 3 21sf and gen 4 17 on duty, a gen 3 30 and 19 off duty. Had left hits across all of them. Thousands of rounds across the board and could never straighten them out. Tried pretty much everything, including countless hours with range staff. Oh well.
The 320 hits dead on for me and I like the feel of the trigger more. Now just hoping the parts can catch up!
Photo of my then duty 17 and brand new 320, as fast as I can shoot at 7 yds:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/10/5f81f66ae4c12f1bacdf6484fc79c1dc.jpg
Pretty standard experience. I found the same thing, in fact my wife and daughter as well, shot them astoundingly well right out of the box. In fact so much my wife bought her own and I ended up getting a third for my daughter. Long time Glock shooter, on duty G23/G22 and years ago we transitioned to M&P's. Luckily I don't have to qualify with the M&P, as I suck with them. Love the gun, can't shoot it worth crap.
The 320's accuracy exceeds Glock/M&P and the trigger is better than both. Decent priced pistol whether you're buying iop or retail. I keep hearing about the aftermarket but honestly what is everyone looking for? Holsters, Mags, Sights, custom trigger work, it's all there. Caliber X-change kits are here, if you need a spare part steal from one of those.
Bottom line is that I'm going to carry what I can shoot the best, fastest and with the least amount of "thought". I don't want to worry about too much finger, not enough, grip pressure left/right etc. Put dot on target / press / hit target. I've done some of the best shooting in 20 years so far with the 320, I only own one gun that might out shoot it (besides the other 320's) and that's my Les Baer. Kind of an unfair comparison.
No doubt it is easier to shoot fast and accurately with a good 1911 or (insert the name of your favorite pistol with a good trigger here), but as I can plink at a very good pace at small metal targets at 25 m and beyond with virtually any service sized stock glock, it always puzzle me when people shoot left at 7 yds with them, or complain about shotgun sized groups at 25 yds...
Perhaps I'm just lucky, but then most of my friends can do the same too ;)
Pretty standard experience. I found the same thing, in fact my wife and daughter as well, shot them astoundingly well right out of the box. In fact so much my wife bought her own and I ended up getting a third for my daughter. Long time Glock shooter, on duty G23/G22 and years ago we transitioned to M&P's. Luckily I don't have to qualify with the M&P, as I suck with them. Love the gun, can't shoot it worth crap.
The 320's accuracy exceeds Glock/M&P and the trigger is better than both. Decent priced pistol whether you're buying iop or retail. I keep hearing about the aftermarket but honestly what is everyone looking for? Holsters, Mags, Sights, custom trigger work, it's all there. Caliber X-change kits are here, if you need a spare part steal from one of those.
Bottom line is that I'm going to carry what I can shoot the best, fastest and with the least amount of "thought". I don't want to worry about too much finger, not enough, grip pressure left/right etc. Put dot on target / press / hit target. I've done some of the best shooting in 20 years so far with the 320, I only own one gun that might out shoot it (besides the other 320's) and that's my Les Baer. Kind of an unfair comparison.
I agree, you can take a 320 out of the box and be good to go. I did have my frame stippled and add HD's, but those are personal preferences.
On my duty glocks I had quite a bit of grip work done (undercut trigger, remove finger grooves), add a grip force adapter, Vickers mag release.
I feel glocks need more done to them to feel as comfortable as the 320 does stock. Even after all that work my 320 still feels better in the hand. That's before even mentioning the trigger..
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/14/7587f5959b0b66e18c16721127427d00.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/14/171280fcd53626f866ad4d521557f831.jpg
No doubt it is easier to shoot fast and accurately with a good 1911 or (insert the name of your favorite pistol with a good trigger here), but as I can plink at a very good pace at small metal targets at 25 m and beyond with virtually any service sized stock glock, it always puzzle me when people shoot left at 7 yds with them, or complain about shotgun sized groups at 25 yds...
Perhaps I'm just lucky, but then most of my friends can do the same too ;)
I feel the issue at least for me was how big my hands are (XXL gloves) and how hard I typically grip the pistol. With the Glock everything is molded together (rails are part of the frame). With the 320 the FCU is separate of the frame so I can crank down as hard as I want and the rounds aren't affected. The 320 large frame also fills my hand better creating less gaps. It's a more rounded grip instead of the 2x4 feel of the Glock.
I feel the issue at least for me was how big my hands are (XXL gloves) and how hard I typically grip the pistol. With the Glock everything is molded together (rails are part of the frame). With the 320 the FCU is separate of the frame so I can crank down as hard as I want and the rounds aren't affected. The 320 large frame also fills my hand better creating less gaps. It's a more rounded grip instead of the 2x4 feel of the Glock.
Have you tried a Gen4 with the large back strap? Still feels like a 2X4 at first (you get used to it), but works well for me with large hands.
Have you tried a Gen4 with the large back strap? Still feels like a 2X4 at first (you get used to it), but works well for me with large hands.
Ya, used the large with grip force, wasn't a huge fan.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-14-15, 20:53
Tried a P320 in .45 today. I wasn't especially impressed. The long reset certainly has nothing on Glock. Felt comfortable in the hand, much more so than a Glock does in my hands.
Tried a P320 in .45 today. I wasn't especially impressed. The long reset certainly has nothing on Glock. Felt comfortable in the hand, much more so than a Glock does in my hands.
You're saying it has a longer reset than Glock?
CanineCombatives
12-17-15, 17:41
Surely you must be kidding, long reset?
Psalms144.1
12-17-15, 19:46
While I'm still trying to understand why I NEED a P320, the trigger reset on everyone I've tried was consistently shorter than any of the literally dozens of Glocks I own/have owned. It's not as POSITIVE (it doesn't kick your finger forward with the spank the Glock does), but it's short, crazy short.
Cagemonkey
02-05-17, 13:49
The more I shoot my SIG 320 C, the more I like it. My Glock 19 may be getting the boot.
Tried to like the P320C, had some trigger slap but is reliable and accurate. However the G19 does the same thing in a smaller package. I still have my 320, but it lives in a small dark box and I'll likely trade / sell / etc at some point.
In my quest for a better trigger, I was curious/brave/stupid enough to totally disassemble the FCU and striker. There are a lot of einsey weinsey little springs and pins in there. Really einsey weinsey! I bent 1 spring, lost another and broke the safety tab lever, which as I found out is very fragile with the slightest bit of lateral pressure. Parts replacement for the 320 right now isn't the best. It's been over a week I've been waiting for the safety tab lever and will be waiting for another 2 weeks or so.
The upside is, the contact points have all been smoothed. Can't wait to get it back together again.
As to the OP's question, haven't decided yet which I like better between the G19 and 320C. The 320 is easier to be accurate with for sure, but I don't know how it handles at speed yet and the G19 is more size efficient.
Hopefully now with Uncle Sam adopting the Sig and the associated increase in popularity, more spring and small parts "kits" will show up as for Glocks.
john
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-05-17, 18:33
While I only have 626 rounds through my 320 at this point, I have had very good performance. It eats 115, 124, 147gr be they Gold Dots, HSTS, Blazer Aluminum, or Monarch Steel case. I have been running Bill Drills and El Prez drills on timers and there isn't anything that holds the 320 back. And the brass is ejected firmly and goes to the right every time--which is a nice plus. The trigger seemed weird at first with a little double click when dry firing. It went away some time in the first 200 rounds. I haven't bothered cleaning it since the second outing.
ArmedNovelist
02-05-17, 19:07
After 40 or so years of shooting 1911s, I've been trying to switch over to glock over the last several years. I truly think the g17 is one of the finest combat handguns on the planet. My EDC is a g26.
Having said that, I must also say that shooting a glock has always been a battle. No other pistol or revolver has ever been as difficult to shoot as my damn glocks. I can - with a lot of effort - shoot POA=POI, but those SOBs truly do want to shoot low & left:)
I've been wanting to explore sigs with the hope of dropping my glocks. I want 9mm, and I'm 6'5" and 280#, so I can EDC the "carry" version of the 320 with no problem. (I carry my g26 with a g19 mag with no problem.). So - I, too, am interested in 320 feedback.
To complicate matters, I could even see going the 229/Legion route. For a variety of reasons, I am also interested in 229 vs 320 accuracy out to +/- 75m.
Looking forward to the comments and dicussions.
john
I've been a Glock guy since my mid-teens. It's all we really had until the last couple of years. I bought two SIG P229s. The most recent, which I still have, is a 9mm Scorpion TB. I will likely carry it more if I can get a holster more akin to my Glock17/19 INCOG instead of the Alien Gear IWB that I have. I love the Scorpion, but I have the wrong holster for my skinny butt.
I can't move away from Glocks, though. In case of a local breakdown or national SHTF situation, the majority of law enforcement are running 9mm Glocks. I look at commonality and reliability in that respect. I will agree that the Glocks love shooting low and left. It's driving a friend up the wall now. I'm searching for a new Gen4 19 to buy now.
But, the 320 also has me intrigued... I'm waiting for more information and something close to the MHS model.
While I only have 626 rounds through my 320 at this point, I have had very good performance. It eats 115, 124, 147gr be they Gold Dots, HSTS, Blazer Aluminum, or Monarch Steel case. I have been running Bill Drills and El Prez drills on timers and there isn't anything that holds the 320 back. And the brass is ejected firmly and goes to the right every time--which is a nice plus. The trigger seemed weird at first with a little double click when dry firing. It went away some time in the first 200 rounds. I haven't bothered cleaning it since the second outing.
Could there be a "break my Sig 320" thread coming?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-05-17, 23:21
Could there be a "break my Sig 320" thread coming?
I am hoping for this....
If it happens, and does well, I'd like to pick up that new p320 X5.
The more I shoot my SIG 320 C, the more I like it. My Glock 19 may be getting the boot.
Im in the same boat, never thought Id consider switching away from my Glock 19s until I shot a 320 tacops carry.
I have been using Glocks off and on since the early 90s. I have been FORCED to use a Sig and an M92 for brief periods in between but I don't take kindly to new stuff until it's been around the block a few times.
If I thought I might be in a fight I might carry the Sig, if I KNEW I was gonna be in a fight I'd only settle for a Glock.
I've been a Glock owner and user for 20+ years. For striker fired handguns I had a "Glock Only" attitude, UNTIL I bought two Gen 4 Model 19s. Both gave me severe brass-to-face ejection regardless of what brand, bullet weight or power level of ammunition I used. Severe meaning at least 4 hot empties in the face out of every magazine but more often 6-8 bouncing off my forehead and shooting glasses. I learned that it is not every 9mm Glock that does this, but a significant number.
Glock loyalists/fanbois claim this is caused by everything from limp wristing and weak ammunition to the phase of the moon. In truth, it is simply the fault of the gun and the cost saving changes Glock has made and refused to change back to the reliable parts of the past.
Because of this BTF from those two G19s I started buying other brands of polymer framed striker fired handguns. Guess what? I found that I liked most of them better than any Glock I had ever owned.
One of those I like better than the Glocks is the Sig P320. And I'm definitely not a Sig fan. I've owned a few DA/SA Sigs and kept none of them. My P320 compact is most definitely a keeper. It has better ergonomics, better trigger, better sights and better finish than a Glock. And I paid $50 less for my P320, with excellent Sig night sights, than a Glock 17 or 19 with the normal suck Glock plastic sights.
My P320 is not my favorite polymer striker fired handgun. My VP9, PPQ and FNS-9 are all slightly better in my opinion. But, the P320 is certainly better than any of the many Glocks I've owned over the years.
Someone will always (always) be along to tell you that the Glock has a ton of after market parts. That is true since the Glock has been around so long. The questions a new prospective Glock buyer should ask themselves are:
1. Do I need and will I buy a bunch of after market parts? Do you buy a car or truck based on how many accessories are made for it? If not then you shouldn't base your handgun choice on how much money you can spend on the gun after you buy it.
2. If the Glock is so perfect then why do all these after market parts exist? It is true for me, and many others, that Glock plastic sights suck but in all the years and all the models of Glocks that I've owned the sights are the only thing I have changed from the stock configuration on any of them.
In the last few years there have been many excellent striker fired handguns brought to the market by different manufacturers. I've bought a number of them and found that I like almost all of them better than my Glocks. I'm obviously not a Glock hater since I've bought and shot them for so many years and currently own five of them. But, I will almost certainly never buy another one as I like the other brands and models I own better. One of those "other" brands and models I like better is the Sig P320.
Funny thing is that if those two Gen 4 Glock 19s had not pounded my face with hot empties I may never have gotten around to trying some of the newer, and better, polymer strikers such as my P320, VP9s, PPQs, FNSs, P99 and Kahrs. Just an opinion of one, but it's the opinion of an actual Glock owner and P320 owner and a person who shoots a lot.
Choice is a good thing and I'm thankful we live in a place and a time when American shooters have so many good choices in handguns. Either of these guns would likely be a good choice, but I definitely have a preference.
OP, my advice is to buy the P320. If there is a problem Sig service is good and likely won't try to blame the problem on everything except the gun.
I am heavily invested in the Glock 19, with that said I will not be ditching the Glock for the p320...however, I am also trying out the p320. I purchased an FDE compact 9mm p320 yesterday. I have been looking at the p320 a lot recently and I had the chance to get one so I did. Based upon just a limited amount of handling I expect I will keep both and probably expand my p320 collection in the future. The ergos are great, grip angle, pointability, etc. plus that trigger. All of my Glock's have modified triggers either full Zev fulcrum kits or Overwatch precision. Out of the box I was amazed with how well the p320 trigger felt in comparison, I have yet to shoot it but I expect dry fire and live fire to feel comparable based upon reviews I have read. If the p320 is even partially as good as the reviews I read and my initial impressions I'll be happy. The only down side I have seen is the size, the p320 is perceptibly larger than the 19 while both carrying the same number of rounds, its not significantly taller, but it is wider which I don't like from a carry perspective but that is the only down side that I have seen so far.
I am almost ready to change my EDC from a Glock 19 to a 9mm P320 Compact. I'm just waiting on the right holster (XC-1 capable).
My second P320, a 9mm Full-size, is currently en route. It'll become my IDPA gun for this season.
So I'm going to be a P320 guy this year and see what happens. Not selling my Glocks anytime soon, but...
WickedWillis
02-07-17, 13:30
I am almost ready to change my EDC from a Glock 19 to a 9mm P320 Compact. I'm just waiting on the right holster (XC-1 capable).
My second P320, a 9mm Full-size, is currently en route. It'll become my IDPA gun for this season.
So I'm going to be a P320 guy this year and see what happens. Not selling my Glocks anytime soon, but...
https://www.nsrtactical.com/products/custom-c-6-iwb-light-bearing-holster
Good option for a decent price. I'm waiting to see if they P320c gets the Incog w/ XC1 treatment as well
Serious Account
02-07-17, 14:42
Sorry for being a bit off topic but.. is it true that unlike GLOCK, the P320's barrel is NOT cold hammer forged? I watched an in-depth video on P320 and the gentleman in the vid said that the P320's barrel is button rifled instead of hammer forged, and there's some concern regarding the barrel's longevity/lifespan.
Coal Dragger
02-07-17, 15:46
As inexpensive and easy to replace as a pistol barrel is I'd not worry about it.
By the time you burn it up you will have expended many thousands of $$$ worth of ammo. At which point you spend $200 and drop a new barrel in it. Big deal.
As inexpensive and easy to replace as a pistol barrel is I'd not worry about it.
By the time you burn it up you will have expended many thousands of $$$ worth of ammo. At which point you spend $200 and drop a new barrel in it. Big deal.
This is the correct attitude and advice.
Both the 320 and G19 are polymer framed service pistols that cost around $500-$550. If you can afford the time and money to buy and shoot enough ammunition to wear out the rifling, regardless of the type rifling, in either barrel then you can easily afford to buy a new barrel or whole new gun.
Choose you weapon, shoot it and enjoy.
thehammer69
02-08-17, 00:07
https://www.nsrtactical.com/products/custom-c-6-iwb-light-bearing-holster
Good option for a decent price. I'm waiting to see if they P320c gets the Incog w/ XC1 treatment as well
I have that exact holster on order for my 320 compact & xc1
Sorry for being a bit off topic but.. is it true that unlike GLOCK, the P320's barrel is NOT cold hammer forged? I watched an in-depth video on P320 and the gentleman in the vid said that the P320's barrel is button rifled instead of hammer forged, and there's some concern regarding the barrel's longevity/lifespan.
My thoughts are that like was said a barrel is inexpensive and easy to replace. Seems like most of the guys with problems had like 15k on them. Will you shoot that much? How long will it take to? At least with the sig unlike the glock you get a very accurate pistol that can be tailored to the shooter, which also comes with legit night sights. A good set of sights are a standard replacement on Glocks. Right away. So you are out at least 120$.
I'm also going to have to give the nod to the 320. I have carried Glocks on one flavor or another for almost 20 years as an LE. I purchased a 320 in 2015 not long after the came out. From the get go I shot it more accurately, than my glocks, but I couldn't run it at speed as well as my Glocks. The 320 at the time didn't have a track record per se, and I was comfortable with the glock platform.
Fast forward to today, I have spent a good deal of time with the 320, and I can now run it as fast as my Glocks, and with more accurate hits. The 320 now has a track record, and it has show to be a solid platform. Now I'm not getting rid of all my glocks, but I just purchased a second 320, and it is now my primary duty weapon if that says anything.
TXPO
Tango Charlie145
02-09-17, 22:03
Wow Texaspoff, that says a lot coming from you. I guess I need to see what kind of stippling you do on them. However, My favorite 19 is the one you did for me about 3 years ago. I too will not get rid of any Glocks but I may have to get a 320.
Wow Texaspoff, that says a lot coming from you. I guess I need to see what kind of stippling you do on them. However, My favorite 19 is the one you did for me about 3 years ago. I too will not get rid of any Glocks but I may have to get a 320.
Yeah I still have a few tricked out glocks that will never leave me. I have a nice pattern set up for the 320, I have been doing a ton of them recently, the military contract has really given them a boost. I still love my glocks, don't get me wrong, but the 320 is an outstanding pistol, and I have been very happy with mine. I have a few trooper friends, and they have been tickled shitless with theirs, although they said they do miss the .357 rounds...:) I told them it just means they actually have to learn how to shoot accurately and not rely on horse power....LOL
TXPO
Are you still liking the carry size?
Are you still liking the carry size?
I actually switched my original over to the compact sized not long after I got it. I found the compact size to be very close to the G19 and I prefer that size overall. The added grip didn't benefit me at all and in carrying it off duty it printed easier. Losing two rounds was worth the advantage of having the smaller grip. The one I just purchased was the compact model.
TXPO
Tango Charlie145
02-10-17, 11:51
Yeah I still have a few tricked out glocks that will never leave me. I have a nice pattern set up for the 320, I have been doing a ton of them recently, the military contract has really given them a boost. I still love my glocks, don't get me wrong, but the 320 is an outstanding pistol, and I have been very happy with mine. I have a few trooper friends, and they have been tickled shitless with theirs, although they said they do miss the .357 rounds...:) I told them it just means they actually have to learn how to shoot accurately and not rely on horse power....LOL
TXPO
HA, that's a good one, but you are exactly right- only good hits count. I like, you, may have to get a 320 Compact (I am in total agreement on your size assessment) just to have and of course, if I do, I will be sending it to you brother. Stay safe!
TC
I actually switched my original over to the compact sized not long after I got it. I found the compact size to be very close to the G19 and I prefer that size overall. The added grip didn't benefit me at all and in carrying it off duty it printed easier. Losing two rounds was worth the advantage of having the smaller grip. The one I just purchased was the compact model.
TXPO
I went with the carry, as I found the compact too wide compared to my M&P 9 Shield. I liked the 320 compact, but the width of the weapon regarding printing was my biggest concern. "For me" the printing and comfort difference between the carry and the compact were negligible. I thought the 17+1 was the perfect fit. I still have the 9 Shield for hot summer days and local errands. "Out of the box", this shoots better than anything I've ever owned. It's going to be interesting when upgrades start becoming mainstream.
I started out with a P226 as a Texas LEO 27+ years ago back when people would ask "what's that". I also had the 220 in .45, then the 229 in .357.. Hard to go wrong with Sig. I still remember when the DPS went to .357, that was what triggered me to switch to that round also. Now, I've got the P320 in 9mm. My fourth Sig, and Full circle back to 9... Who'd of thunk it. I'm no longer a LEO though as 25 years was enough. Just need CCH and IDPA types now.
Be safe out there!
I went with the carry, as I found the compact too wide compared to my M&P 9 Shield. I liked the 320 compact, but the width of the weapon regarding printing was my biggest concern. "For me" the printing and comfort difference between the carry and the compact were negligible. I thought the 17+1 was the perfect fit. I still have the 9 Shield for hot summer days and local errands. "Out of the box", this shoots better than anything I've ever owned. It's going to be interesting when upgrades start becoming mainstream.
I started out with a P226 as a Texas LEO 27+ years ago back when people would ask "what's that". I also had the 220 in .45, then the 229 in .357.. Hard to go wrong with Sig. I still remember when the DPS went to .357, that was what triggered me to switch to that round also. Now, I've got the P320 in 9mm. My fourth Sig, and Full circle back to 9... Who'd of thunk it. I'm no longer a LEO though as 25 years was enough. Just need CCH and IDPA types now.
Be safe out there!
I sure understand all that. Been in a few over 20 and have about 8 more till I pack it in. Same with me, when I started, I was carrying a P220 45, and then a P229 40 when the 40 craze started up. Somewhere along the line I picked up a glock and started carrying them for a long, long time. Here I am now packing a Sig again, and all the way back to a 9mm.
Will do, and you be safe as well.
TXPO
I always liked the G19 better than the G17. That being said, I started my P320 journey with a Compact 9. I just took delivery of a Full-size 9 and, wow! I won't go so far as to say it's my "perfect" pistol... Yet... But, damn. It fits and points perfectly for me.
I always liked the G19 better than the G17. That being said, I started my P320 journey with a Compact 9. I just took delivery of a Full-size 9 and, wow! I won't go so far as to say it's my "perfect" pistol... Yet... But, damn. It fits and points perfectly for me.
That's why I've never owned, nor probably will ever own a Glock. Not bashing, as it's a great, mechanically sound weapon. IMHO, "most" of the medium to full size Sigs fit my hand and points like a custom made glove would. ALL of the Glocks fit like I'm holding and pointing carton of milk. Just personal preference.
I'm going out to the range again with the 320 again this week. I really like the way it shoots.
KITTEN_FRENZY
02-13-17, 12:54
I'm also going to have to give the nod to the 320. I have carried Glocks on one flavor or another for almost 20 years as an LE. I purchased a 320 in 2015 not long after the came out. From the get go I shot it more accurately, than my glocks, but I couldn't run it at speed as well as my Glocks. The 320 at the time didn't have a track record per se, and I was comfortable with the glock platform.
Fast forward to today, I have spent a good deal of time with the 320, and I can now run it as fast as my Glocks, and with more accurate hits. The 320 now has a track record, and it has show to be a solid platform. Now I'm not getting rid of all my glocks, but I just purchased a second 320, and it is now my primary duty weapon if that says anything.
TXPO
What are your impressions of the P10c and 320c?
Any major differences or stuff that jumps out to you?
What are your impressions of the P10c and 320c?
Any major differences or stuff that jumps out to you?
Performance wise, they both work equally well. I don't find one any more comfortable than the other. Both grips fit my hand well, and allow me to control the pistols under speed. The higher bore axis on the 320 was a slight handicap for me at first which slowed be down slightly compared to my Glocks, but I was still more accurate with the 320. With a little trigger time I have overcome the speed challenge and can now run the 320 as fast as my glocks, and the CZ. On a side note, my newer 320, has less felt recoil than my older one. Haven't quite figure that one out yet.
The P-10's grip fits me just as well as the 320, and the recoil on it is one of the softest I have seen on a 9mm pistol. It does have size going for it, as it is slightly smaller than the 320. I carry my 320's both on and off duty and I find no difference between it and my G19. YMMV. I suspect the CZ will carry every bit as well as the 19, seeing as how it is actually a hair thinner then the G19. Overall the P-10 is so close to the 19, most folks will never notice the difference.
IMO both pistols carry well, but the 19 still reigns king in that category.
The 320 has a track record, and aftermarket support. I suspect that will come with the P-10, but for now, what you see is what you get. Both pistols are extremely accurate, and neither have a preference for a particular load. Both pistol have been completely reliable. My early 2015 320 has well over 6k through it, and never had failure of any kind. The P-10 T&E version I have has over 700 rounds through it now, without cleaning or lube and it has been 100% as well.
Maintenance on the P320 and P-10 are a bit different. While the P-10 takes down like a glock, that's where it ends. To detail strip the pistol, you will have to drive out some roll pins. Most folks don't detail strip their weapons, but with the P-10 should you decide too, this becomes a bit more challenging. With the P320, detail stripping is a breeze as well as just general cleaning. I'm not all into the modular thing, but with the 320's modular design, it sure makes cleaning almost fun.
I am and have been a huge glock fan for many years. Unfortunately, while it is still a viable design, has become dated. Think of it like a 1911, not many folks I know that carry 1911's carry them in their original 1906 form. They have extended beaver tail grip safeties, better sights, match grade barrels, etc. etc, the list goes on. Glocks design is what it is. There are so many other manufactures out there that have created their own striker pistols, most all of which can trace their roots back to the glock. Past that, most all the other striker guns out there, have superior attributes over a glock in one way or another.
I don't think you can go wrong with either a G19, P320, or P-10. Different strokes, and with the plethora of striker guns out there today, there is something for everyone.
TXPO
jschmitt08
02-13-17, 21:27
Thanks for the very detailed assessment. This was a question I was wondering as I knew you had both the 320 and p10c.
KITTEN_FRENZY
02-13-17, 21:57
Thanks, Texas. How do the triggers compare? From what I've read, the P10C is about 1.5-2lb lighter? There also appears to be a lot of variance in the P320's trigger pull feel from gun to gun.
Thanks, Texas. How do the triggers compare? From what I've read, the P10C is about 1.5-2lb lighter? There also appears to be a lot of variance in the P320's trigger pull feel from gun to gun.
Both My 320's triggers weigh in around 6 pounds or so. On paper they are heavier than the P-10 I have which comes in at 4.6 pounds. The funny thing is, the 320's feel lighter, around 4.7 pounds and the P-10 feels a bit heavier than it really is, around 5 pounds. The 320's trigger feels lighter because of the metal trigger and it being larger than the others. All the 320 triggers I have handled feel roughly the same. I haven't noticed much difference overall. They all smooth out nicely though.
Both triggers works well for and I have no issues with either. The newer 320's trigger is slightly gritty, but that will smooth out with some usage. The older 320's trigger was the same and it smoothed out fine. The same with the P-10. It was gritty at first and smoothed out. I am a trigger snob on my 1911's, but not on strikers. I can shoot any of them without much fuss. I don't get all wrapped up in the trigger systems on striker guns. None of them are outstanding compared to a good single action, and there is such a tolerance variation in them, it was easier to just learn to adapt to whatever platform I am shooting. Even with the 6 pound trigger, I can shoot the 320's more accurately than my Glocks with their 4.7 triggers. The 320's break is very clean being striker. The P-10 also have a very clean break. Both of them break much cleaner than a Glock trigger. The biggest thing I like about the 320 triggers are they have a very small amount of take up, they don't move very far to hit the wall.
I'll take a clean breaking heavy trigger over a light squishy one any day.
If you go with a 320 and you really want to go high speed low drag, send it to Robert Burke, or Bruce Gray and then you can see what a 320 trigger can really be.
TXPO
I'm all in on the 320 but you've got me wanting to try the p10. If nothing else it may be an interesting addition to CZ portion of my collection
Nate
NAAH Tool Works
Naahtoolworks@gmail.com
I finally got to handle an FDE P320c and it felt really good in the hand. I didn't get to shoot it but it seems like a better feel than my G19 gen 3. This will probably be my next handgun but I've been wanting an HK as of late so we'll see.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The wife just did her first stipple on mine. Trying to get her to do more. Texture is nice for a carry gun. She worked out another pattern too. But that one is more aggressive. Getting a fde frame for that.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170214/4c1b3a334c1a2d21e340f491d28386f2.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170214/4158a878fada4ec274c0ff1d43a8b7e8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170214/6515c99bf5ae43aa2ad325ef1e4aa120.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170214/f55b5927f079222efb10c8c20d994494.jpg
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556BlackRifle
02-14-17, 22:34
Bear, that looks bad ass! She did a hell of a nice job.
Bear, that looks bad ass! She did a hell of a nice job.
Thanks, I thought it turned out nice. Excited for her to do some more now. Sure helps with the grip and it carries well against the skin with my practice run.
RAM Engineer
02-15-17, 11:11
That looks really well executed.
lonnie1120
02-18-17, 17:58
After handling the P320 compact and the M&P 2.0 today, both are on the list. Both had excellent triggers.
After handling the P320 compact and the M&P 2.0 today, both are on the list. Both had excellent triggers.
I love the M&P platform. I shot the M&P 2.0 and the Sig 320 on the same day. IMHO, no comparison. When I shot the Sig, it was just much, much smoother all around on an (out of the box) basis than the M&P 2.0.
I just bought the 320, and will be trading my full size M&P for another one. I'll keep my M&P shield though as there is no replacement for it yet. The 320 compact is still too big for summer CCW (for me).
556BlackRifle
02-18-17, 18:51
I love the M&P platform. I shot the M&P 2.0 and the Sig 320 on the same day. IMHO, no comparison. When I shot the Sig, it was just much, much smoother all around on an (out of the box) basis than the M&P 2.0.
I just bought the 320, and will be trading my full size M&P for another one. I'll keep my M&P shield though as there is no replacement for it yet. The 320 compact is still too big for summer CCW (for me).
Congrats on the 320. I was able to get an Incog-Eclipse yesterday and have been testing different adjustments looking for the sweet spot. It actually carries pretty well and IMO with the right holster, I think it will be concealable as my G19 which I carry all year round. I have high hopes for the C&G holster I ordered and can't wait to give it a try.
Congrats on the 320. I was able to get an Incog-Eclipse yesterday and have been testing different adjustments looking for the sweet spot.
Keep me posted. I had not heard of that one. I'll have to check it out. Thanks!
I have the 320 carry, and it's basically identical in size to my P229, only it feels like half the weight. I'm just spoiled with my shield 9. You forget it's there. It's right at home with cargo shorts and a t-shirt.
I handled the 320 full size and compact yesterday. They seem a bit chuncky. The grip was comfortable but I would prefer a more aggressive checkering. The trigger felt nice though.
jpgm
I handled the 320 full size and compact yesterday. They seem a bit chuncky. The grip was comfortable but I would prefer a more aggressive checkering. The trigger felt nice though.
jpgm
Checkering is weak but easily fixed. The small module is a lot smaller then the medium you felt also.
lonnie1120
02-20-17, 05:36
I love the M&P platform. I shot the M&P 2.0 and the Sig 320 on the same day. IMHO, no comparison. When I shot the Sig, it was just much, much smoother all around on an (out of the box) basis than the M&P 2.0.
I just bought the 320, and will be trading my full size M&P for another one. I'll keep my M&P shield though as there is no replacement for it yet. The 320 compact is still too big for summer CCW (for me).
Thank you for your post. Although I've handled both, I haven't had the chance to shoot either. You may have just saved me some money.
I just bought the 320, and will be trading my full size M&P for another one. I'll keep my M&P shield though as there is no replacement for it yet. The 320 compact is still too big for summer CCW (for me).
Same for me - switching to a P320 Compact and will be getting rid of my FS M&P 1.0, but also keeping my Shields for now.
Thank you for your post. Although I've handled both, I haven't had the chance to shoot either. You may have just saved me some money.
Confessions of a M&P fan (disclaimer, I'm also a Sig fan)...
For me, it was a night and day difference. I'd never even handled a P320 before that day. I love my M&Ps. I have a gen-1 M&P 9 all tricked out to shoot 3-gun with, then went to look at the 2.0 as I was considering one. I shot half box of ammo through the 2.0 when someone handed me a bone stock P320 carry... It looked clunky and cumbersome. What the heck... I shot a few rounds through the 320, then shot a few more rounds through the 2.0... Wow... Or should I say oh boy.
I put the 2.0 down and didn't even want to touch it again. It felt sleazy and dirty compared to the P320. I shot another box through the 320 and bought a new one the same day. Now... This is just ME and MY opinion, but it really was no comparison.
ETA: The M&P 2.0 is a noticeable improvement over the Gen-1. It is still a great weapon. Sig though, just hit the ball out of the effing park with the P320. IMHO, it really is that good.
Now the M&P shield is still in a league of it's own. My little "daily driver" won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
GarandShooter
02-21-17, 00:41
Very informative thread, thank you!
The 320 definitely performs. This was with earlier today with my new sights. Solidifies the reason I carry 320's now.
15 yards deliberate shooting
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/Target1_zpseiqdhjvb.jpeg
10 yards rapid pace. I called the flyers, they were my fault. :)
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/Target2_zps6hul1xyc.jpeg
My modified Factory sights.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/Mobile%20Uploads/58BDC7EA-53C3-471A-A836-84DE950E95D4_zpsfjembskd.jpg
TXPO
The 320 definitely performs. This was with earlier today with my new sights. Solidifies the reason I carry 320's now.
15 yards deliberate shooting
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/Target1_zpseiqdhjvb.jpeg
10 yards rapid pace. I called the flyers, they were my fault. :)
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/Target2_zps6hul1xyc.jpeg
My modified Factory sights.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/Mobile%20Uploads/58BDC7EA-53C3-471A-A836-84DE950E95D4_zpsfjembskd.jpg
TXPO
How do you like the green over the orange? I just ordered the orange but was double guessing it over the green.
How do you like the green over the orange? I just ordered the orange but was double guessing it over the green.
I prefer the green now. I used the orange for quite a while, and tried the green once and it stands out much better for my eyes.
TXPO
I prefer the green now. I used the orange for quite a while, and tried the green once and it stands out much better for my eyes.
TXPO
Thank you, I have the ameriglo orange front on my g43. So I was trying to work out a common sight picture. But man that green looks really good in your pic!
methical20
02-23-17, 12:43
@Texaspoff
This may be better to do in the CZ P10 C thread. It seems that you really like the P320, and since you're one of the few that has some trigger time with the new CZ, can you give us your opinion of it compared to the P320?
mod1firearms.com
Great guy to deal with. He has done quite a bit of machine work for me. I highly recommend him.
TXPO
I second that. He's done a few jobs for me.
@Texaspoff
This may be better to do in the CZ P10 C thread. It seems that you really like the P320, and since you're one of the few that has some trigger time with the new CZ, can you give us your opinion of it compared to the P320?
For the most part, I like both pistols equally. I don't shoot one any better or faster than the other, the high bore axis topic is highly over rated IMO. Both are extremely accurate, and have been 100% reliable. The Sig has stronger support in the aftermarket right now, but that is something the CZ will likely gain once it has been out for a bit. The Sig has a longer track record as far as reliability and durability, again something the CZ will develop on it's own. Both trigger systems work very well, have clean breaks, and limited over travel which lends itself to good shoot placement. The 320's trigger is slightly heavier, but when running I didn't notice and it didn't affect my shooting.
I really do like the ergos on the 320 though. I started out with Sigs over 20 years ago in the LE career, and so I have always had a soft spot for them. The 320 just fits my hand extremely well. Thats not to say the CZ doesn't feel good or fit well, but IMO the 320 grip feels just a bit better overall.
Some may find the texturing on the CZ to be a little aggressive. I didn't have any issues with it, and it could be softened up a bit with some sandpaper very easily.
I don't believe you could go wrong with either one.
TXPO
I finally bought a FDE P320 this past weekend to try out. I only have 150 down the tube so far and it's growing on me. It's still too early to tell how it stacks up to my G19 though.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170223/13ffabf4784a544b4ccba79b0e475333.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170223/02a204e601dde1e8d540067228abef37.jpg
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Took the P320 and the M&P 9 Shield out today and ran a box through each.
I like the 320 more and more every time I shoot it. I can say the same about my Shield. Love 'em both! At least "for now" I feel like I have the perfect combination.
I'm looking forward to more and more parts and accessories becoming available for the 320. I have a good feeling that I'm going to get 20+ years out of this platform like I did with my older Sig DA/SA duty weapons. I'll be farting dust by then so who knows if I'll ever need to update again.
2 weeks ago I bought the P320 Carry in 9mm. I want to find a "compact" grip in small and I think that it will be a lot better for carry. Shoots like a dream, just like my SIG SP2022 and my just acquired P320 in .45.
I swapped out the magazine catch lever form the P320 9mm (has the new Gen 2 grips and catch lever) with the lever of my P320 Compact in .45ACP. I just got the .45 last Sunday. Once I got that swapped out I was able to take the FCU from the .45ACP and put it in the grip module of the 9mm and put the 9mm slide assembly back on and it functioned just like the original FCU that came with it. Rack in round and ejects rounds just like before. Worked well in the .45 ACP Gen 1 as well, but I had to use a flat file on the front of the slot where the catch release resides and it worked fine in it as well.
So it appears you can go from .45 down to other calibers but not up as the FCU for the .45 seems to be a bit different in the allowing of the magazine of the .45 to latch in. Go figure. All the .45ACP SIG P320 seem also to come with the older style Gen 1 grip module and catch. So, I ordered a new Gen 2 slide catch today and will change over the P320 in .45.
The .45 is like the 9mm and my other SIG in giving nice tight groups. I carried a Glock in .40 when I was a Deputy, but it never shot as tight a group as these SIGs. I could qualify easy enough with the Glock but not tight like the SIG.
44166
I swapped out the magazine catch lever form the P320 9mm (has the new Gen 2 grips and catch lever) with the lever of my P320 Compact in .45ACP. I just got the .45 last Sunday. Once I got that swapped out I was able to take the FCU from the .45ACP and put it in the grip module of the 9mm and put the 9mm slide assembly back on and it functioned just like the original FCU that came with it. Rack in round and ejects rounds just like before. Worked well in the .45 ACP Gen 1 as well, but I had to use a flat file on the front of the slot where the catch release resides and it worked fine in it as well.
Did you fire any rounds through the 45 after conversion or just finction test on the workbench?
If the 45 can indeed be concerted into the 9, 40, etc this would seem to be the pistol to buy as it will offer the widest amount of flexibility.
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Did you fire any rounds through the 45 after conversion or just finction test on the workbench?
If the 45 can indeed be concerted into the 9, 40, etc this would seem to be the pistol to buy as it will offer the widest amount of flexibility.
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Once I put the smaller slide lock on my FCU of the .45 I can put it in either the .45 grip module or the 9mm grip module. In other words, this new Gen 2 slide catch lock/lever will also work in the older Gen1 style frame module, but you cannot fit the wide and bigger Gen1 slide lock into a Gen 2 grip frame as that \___/ shape of the new Gen 2 will hit that slide lock and put it up. I guess you could grind off that U but that would be a shame on a perfectly good grip module. Better to just by the new Gen2 slide lock.
Now I can insert the 9mm with the old style Gen 1 into the .45 frame and put the slide on but it WON'T let the magazine go up and engage. There is a tab in the 9mm FCU that prevents that. I can, however, put the .45 FCU into my 9mm (with the changed out new Gen 2 slide lock) and put the slide back on and then insert a magazine, 9mm. I did shoot a test today (in the wind and snow) of 6 rounds at a target and last round the slide locked back just like normal. No FTF, no FTE, no malfunctions at all, normal.
So in conclusion I can fire the .45 with my .45 FCU and if I put in the new Gen2 slide lock onto it, I can then use it in my Gen2 grip module of my 9mm and fire my 9mm with it with no issues. Not the other way around, because of the little tab inside the FCU of the 9mm.
Now, they don't make a .45 P320 with the new grip module and you can't buy the new Gen 2 grip module for it. So if you buy a .45 ACP P320 you will need to change out that one part SIG part # 1300891-R, and THEN it will fit into your Gen 2 for 9mm, .40S&W, 357 SIG.
44177 Yes, there are 6 shots on this target.
44178 Two different styles of grip module. .45 is the older Gen 1 with the flat bar near the stop.
556BlackRifle
02-25-17, 10:32
Once I put the smaller slide lock on my FCU of the .45 I can put it in either the .45 grip module or the 9mm grip module. In other words, this new Gen 2 slide catch lock/lever will also work in the older Gen1 style frame module, but you cannot fit the wide and bigger Gen1 slide lock into a Gen 2 grip frame as that \___/ shape of the new Gen 2 will hit that slide lock and put it up. I guess you could grind off that U but that would be a shame on a perfectly good grip module. Better to just by the new Gen2 slide lock.
Now I can insert the 9mm with the old style Gen 1 into the .45 frame and put the slide on but it WON'T let the magazine go up and engage. There is a tab in the 9mm FCU that prevents that. I can, however, put the .45 FCU into my 9mm (with the changed out new Gen 2 slide lock) and put the slide back on and then insert a magazine, 9mm. I did shoot a test today (in the wind and snow) of 6 rounds at a target and last round the slide locked back just like normal. No FTF, no FTE, no malfunctions at all, normal.
So in conclusion I can fire the .45 with my .45 FCU and if I put in the new Gen2 slide lock onto it, I can then use it in my Gen2 grip module of my 9mm and fire my 9mm with it with no issues. Not the other way around, because of the little tab inside the FCU of the 9mm.
Now, they don't make a .45 P320 with the new grip module and you can't buy the new Gen 2 grip module for it. So if you buy a .45 ACP P320 you will need to change out that one part SIG part # 1300891-R, and THEN it will fit into your Gen 2 for 9mm, .40S&W, 357 SIG.
44177 Yes, there are 6 shots on this target.
44178 Two different styles of grip module. .45 is the older Gen 1 with the flat bar near the stop.
How do you like the Gen 2 slide lock? It looks pretty small compared with the Gen 1. I just ordered a gen 2 grip frame (compact small) so I'm going to have to change it out. Not a big deal aside from the fact that I like the looks of the Gen 1 better......
How do you like the Gen 2 slide lock? It looks pretty small compared with the Gen 1. I just ordered a gen 2 grip frame (compact small) so I'm going to have to change it out. Not a big deal aside from the fact that I like the looks of the Gen 1 better......
I like it fine. It sits quite snugly in that \___/ slot and actually you are going to like it a bit better I bet. It's less obtrusive sticking out, and easier to holster, I believe, since the U protection is just enough to give it the protection. Take down is just as easy, and if you have trouble pushing up on the smaller button, just put in an empty slide and rack. Slide stays back, remove slide, push Take Down Lever to the down position and then pull the slide back slightly and then forward to remove the whole slide.
I shoot thumbs down in my hold. I have from way back, and no issues. People that point their thumbs up like they're hitching a ride seemed to have more issues with causing the slide to lock back before the magazine was empty.
44180 This is how I hold my pistol.
Can't remember. Did we cover the fact that the 320 failed 3 of the 5 FBI tests (specifically the drop test)?? Folks, this is a VERY cheap gun to produce (think S&W SIGMA).
C4
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Can't remember. Did we cover the fact that the 320 failed 3 of the 5 FBI tests (specifically the drop test)?? Folks, this is a VERY cheap gun to produce (think S&W SIGMA).
C4
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Cheaper then glock?
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Cheaper then glock?
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Yes. By a lot.
C4
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Linebacker
02-25-17, 12:54
Yes. By a lot.
C4
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Sigs are being acquired by the DD for $207 per unit, actually.
Can't remember. Did we cover the fact that the 320 failed 3 of the 5 FBI tests (specifically the drop test)?? Folks, this is a VERY cheap gun to produce (think S&W SIGMA).
C4
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So how did it pass the ICE trials? They skip the drop test or was the gun modified to pass? Or did FBI specifically conduct testing to select the G19M?
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So how did it pass the ICE trials? They skip the drop test or was the gun modified to pass? Or did FBI specifically conduct testing to select the G19M?
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Don't know. What are ICE's standards? Superior to the FBI? Not likely. How did it pass the USA's test? One guess is the external safety saved it IF they actually did a drop test.
C4
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Sigs are being acquired by the DD for $207 per unit, actually.
Yes, I am aware. That isn't the price to produce them though.
C4
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Don't know. What are ICE's standards? Superior to the FBI? Not likely. How did it pass the USA's test? One guess is the external safety saved it IF they actually did a drop test.
C4
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ICE isn't going with the thumb safety.
What's wrong with a cheap gun if it works? The future should be cheaper guns that work.
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ICE isn't going with the thumb safety.
What's wrong with a cheap gun if it works? The future should be cheaper guns that work.
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Did they do a drop test? If not, then they wouldn't know. I know now of two incidents were a student either dropped a gun or it fell off the roof of a car and went off.
I am all for a cheap gun that works, but failing 3 of then 5 FBI tests is a no go.
C4
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Did they do a drop test? If not, then they wouldn't know. I know now of two incidents were a student either dropped a gun or it fell off the roof of a car and went off.
I am all for a cheap gun that works, but failing 3 of then 5 FBI tests is a no go.
C4
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It would be amazing to me if ICE did conduct a drop test of some type.
Also of note is the G2 Gold Dot didn't pass ICE's ammo test. But I suppose FBI can do no wrong or make no mistakes so ICE is at fault.
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Yes, I am aware. That isn't the price to produce them though.
C4
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I've heard that it cost glock, $100 per gun, to produce.
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It would be amazing to me if ICE didn't conduct a drop test of some type.
Also of note is the G2 Gold Dot didn't pass ICE's ammo test. But I suppose FBI can do no wrong or make no mistakes so ICE is at fault.
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FBI (typically) does the best firearms testing and then the other agencies just jump onboard with heir findings. I would be surprised (shocked actually) if ICE's test was even remotely as thorough as the FBI's (which are published online).
If ICE got one of the bad batches of G2, then that is how it would fail. According to the FBI Agent buddy I spoke with, the G2 beat all other challengers in every way. This is the ammo I am now carrying.
No other agency spends as much money testing guns and ammo as the FBI.
C4
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I've heard that it cost glock, $100 per gun, to produce.
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Pretty close.
C4
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FBI (typically) does the best firearms testing and then the other agencies just jump onboard with heir findings. I would be surprised (shocked actually) if ICE's test was even remotely as thorough as the FBI's (which are published online).
If ICE got one of the bad batches of G2, then that is how it would fail. According to the FBI Agent buddy I spoke with, the G2 beat all other challengers in every way. This is the ammo I am now carrying.
No other agency spends as much money testing guns and ammo as the FBI.
C4
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I also note that the G19M was withdrawn from ICE's test. Not certain but I believe the test guns had durability issues with +P ammo.
I think everyone went into the ICE test expecting the 19M to do well and it is rumored to be the gun ICE wanted.
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I also note that the G19M was withdrawn from ICE's test. Not certain but I believe the test guns had durability issues with +P ammo.
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No idea on that. As a non-Glock kool-aid drinker (LE DEALER, certified armorer and commercial dealer) they tend to let customers do their T&E for them.
C4
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mkmckinley
02-25-17, 13:26
Did the G19M get adopted by anyone?
At $600 I would not call this a very cheap gun. My Taurus GII would be more in that line at around $239, or the S&W M&P 40 Shield at $380.
This was awarded the contract to replace the Beretta as the Army's side arm. The firing pin/striker has a block that prevent forward movement unless the trigger is pulled back. Same with my SIG SP2022 and also the Taurus Millennium GII in 9mm. There is a block that prevents the firing pin going forward until the trigger has reached a certain position in the rearward movement.
I'm hoping this gif file will show up. The file is of a P250, but other than the hammer, the same "lock" is applicable to the p320.
Well, I upload a .gif file and it shows up as a .jpg Any idea on how to show a gif?
Did the G19M get adopted by anyone?
The FBI, and probably several LE agencies now and in the future.
C4
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At $600 I would not call this a very cheap gun. My Taurus GII would be more in that line at around $239, or the S&W M&P 40 Shield at $380.
Who paying $600 a 320?
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At $600 I would not call this a very cheap gun. My Taurus GII would be more in that line at around $239, or the S&W M&P 40 Shield at $380.
This was awarded the contract to replace the Beretta as the Army's side arm. The firing pin/striker has a block that prevent forward movement unless the trigger is pulled back. Same with my SIG SP2022 and also the Taurus Millennium GII in 9mm. There is a block that prevents the firing pin going forward until the trigger has reached a certain position in the rearward movement.
I'm hoping this gif file will show up. The file is of a P250, but other than the hammer, the same "lock" is applicable to the p320.
Well, I upload a .gif file and it shows up as a .jpg Any idea on how to show a gif?
You are looking at full retail on the commercial side. Not the same as what it costs to produce. Please know the difference.
C4
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I was just trying to reference what was out there, in the market, selling that could be readily or easily found out. Seems like Glock years ago managed to sell their pistols to the NYPD for somewhere around $45.00. I could be all wet with that, but if so, it's base cost would have been close to that.
Concerning the P320 drop safety..... is there a link for the FBI finding on this? I wonder why that firing pin blocker that is in place would not prevent it from firing?
I was just trying to reference what was out there, in the market, selling that could be readily or easily found out. Seems like Glock years ago managed to sell their pistols to the NYPD for somewhere around $45.00. I could be all wet with that, but if so, it's base cost would have been close to that.
Concerning the P320 drop safety..... is there a link for the FBI finding on this? I wonder why that firing pin blocker that is in place would not prevent it from firing?
I have never seen that dollar amount for a Glock listed at that price. From what I know, that is way below their cost.
The FBI publishes the test criteria, but not the test results. I am sure there will be a FOIA submitted at some point.
Back to the USA contract, another manufacturer rep was in our store last week and said that the contract wasn't a done deal yet. So we shall see.
C4
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This doesn't have to be a mystery. The FBI's RFP and ICE's SOW are both available to the public.
FBI, pg 94:
7) PISTOL DROP TEST
A) Three pistols from each class will be selected for this test.
i) Each of the pistols will be cleaned & lubricated per the Offeror's recommended
specifications.
b) Each pistol will be loaded with a primed cartridge case in the chamber and a magazine
filled to capacity with service cartridges (54227).
c) The pistol will then be dropped from a height of 48” onto smooth concrete in the
following manner:
i) Muzzle down
ii) Muzzle up
iii) Sights down
iv) Magazine down
v) Right side down
vi) Left side down
Ice, C-14, C-15
4.27 Drop Test
Three (3) randomly selected samples will undergo drop testing from a height of four (4) feet onto a concrete pad in the following orientations:
a. Muzzle facing the concrete pad
b. Muzzle facing away from the concrete pad
c. Top of the slide facing up away from the concrete pad
d. Top of the slide facing down toward the concrete pad
e. Right side of the pistol facing the concrete pad
f. Left side of the pistol facing the concrete pad
(Snip) Each firearm will contain a magazine loaded with metallic dummy ammunition to simulate the weight of live ammunition. A cartridge case containing a live primer will be in the chamber during every drop test.(Snip)
As far as I can tell, the drop tests are pretty much identical. Further, I followed with great interest the FBI's solicitation. During testing, there was a plethora of contradicting information. Industry sources and inside sources on this board and on pistol-forum all had different takes on how each pistol was fairing through the tests. It will be interesting if the information is ever leaked.
C4IGrant, I'm curious what 5 tests you're referring to when you say the P320 failed 3 of them? There seems to be far more than 5 "tests" the FBI performed (roughly counting, about 14 specific tests), from pass/fail tests, to "point system" tests, not counting the tests each pistol must undergo to confirm it meets specifications (Phase 1, B, section C).
This doesn't have to be a mystery. The FBI's RFP and ICE's SOW are both available to the public.
FBI, pg 94:
Ice, C-14, C-15
As far as I can tell, the drop tests are pretty much identical. Further, I followed with great interest the FBI's solicitation. During testing, there was a plethora of contradicting information. Industry sources and inside sources on this board and on pistol-forum all had different takes on how each pistol was fairing through the tests. It will be interesting if the information is ever leaked.
C4IGrant, I'm curious what 5 tests you're referring to when you say the P320 failed 3 of them? There seems to be far more than 5 "tests" the FBI performed (roughly counting, about 14 specific tests), from pass/fail tests, to "point system" tests, not counting the tests each pistol must undergo to confirm it meets specifications (Phase 1, B, section C).
Is it possible that ICE did not "randomly" select the 320 for the drop test? Possibly. Just a theory.
The 5 tests were listed in the Glock thread I believe. The are tests inside of he main ones (of memory serves). I would have to go back and re-read it again.
Edited, found it.
C4
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It would be amazing to me if ICE did conduct a drop test of some type.
Also of note is the G2 Gold Dot didn't pass ICE's ammo test. But I suppose FBI can do no wrong or make no mistakes so ICE is at fault.
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the g2 gold dot is less effective then the regular gold dot. And this is what the fbi chose.
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As far as being cheap to produce, interchangeability of parts (read: cheap) is the new wave of requirements.
The Army's MHS, FBI's RFP, and ICE's SOW all had requirements that parts can be swapped between pistols without failure. The FBI and ICE both detailed stripped a number of pistols down to their individual components, and randomly put them back together and test fired the pistols.
In fact, this "interchangeability of parts" was a more demanding/important test than the drop test. The "interchangeability" test was a pass/fail, and if one pistol failed amongst the three tested, the offerer was disqualified. The "drop test" was a points-system test, and it took 2 of the 3 pistols failing to disqualify the offerer.
What I'm getting at is that Federal agencies and the Army no longer want precision, hand-built pistols. They want cheap, reliable pistols that are easy to maintain, fix, and replace. There was also a misnomer regarding the Army's MHS (modular handgun system) that the "modular" meant modular in the sense of the P320's modularity. People wondered how other pistols that didn't have the P320's modular chassis system were able to submit pistols. In reality, the MHS "modularity" was more about changing grips (replaceable backstraps was acceptable) and the interchanbaility (drop-in) of small parts. Gone are the days of hand-fit pistols. If the Army/FBI/ICE experience an individual barrel failure, they expect to drop-in a new barrel.
Is it possible that ICE did not "randomly" select the 320 for the drop test? Possibly. Just a theory.
The 5 tests were listed in the Glock thread I believe. The are tests inside of he main ones (of memory serves). I would have to go back and re-read it again.
Edited, found it.
C4
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If the P320 failed any single phase, testing would have seized. Like I mentioned earlier, there seems to be a lot of confounding information out there that does not match the RFP. For example, had the P320 failed the drop test, per the RFP, the P320 would have been removed from further testing and removed from consideration.
Sure, ICE could have cheated the test in favor of the P320, in the same way the FBI could have cheated the test against the P320, but I really doubt either possibility.
As far as being cheap to produce, interchangeability of parts (read: cheap) is the new wave of requirements.
The Army's MHS, FBI's RFP, and ICE's SOW all had requirements that parts can be swapped between pistols without failure. The FBI and ICE both detailed stripped a number of pistols down to their individual components, and randomly put them back together and test fired the pistols.
In fact, this "interchangeability of parts" was a more demanding/important test than the drop test. The "interchangeability" test was a pass/fail, and if one pistol failed amongst the three tested, the offerer was disqualified. The "drop test" was a points-system test, and it took 2 of the 3 pistols failing to disqualify the offerer.
What I'm getting at is that Federal agencies and the Army no longer want precision, hand-built pistols. They want cheap, reliable pistols that are easy to maintain, fix, and replace. There was also a misnomer regarding the Army's MHS (modular handgun system) that the "modular" meant modular in the sense of the P320's modularity. People wondered how other pistols that didn't have the P320's modular chassis system were able to submit pistols. In reality, the MHS "modularity" was more about changing grips (replaceable backstraps was acceptable) and the interchanbaility (drop-in) of small parts. Gone are the days of hand-fit pistols. If the Army/FBI/ICE experience an individual barrel failure, they expect to drop-in a new barrel.
I fully understand that want/need to be able to swap parts and not having to have professional gun smiths in uniform. Unless something has changed, you can swap parts in most all mass produced pistols these days (nothing new here).
I know people don't think that failing a drop test is a big, but it is. Wait till a student, police officer or Military member shoots themselves or someone when they drop one of these (which happens all the time).
C4
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As far as being cheap to produce, interchangeability of parts (read: cheap) is the new wave of requirements.
The Army's MHS, FBI's RFP, and ICE's SOW all had requirements that parts can be swapped between pistols without failure. The FBI and ICE both detailed stripped a number of pistols down to their individual components, and randomly put them back together and test fired the pistols.
In fact, this "interchangeability of parts" was a more demanding/important test than the drop test. The "interchangeability" test was a pass/fail, and if one pistol failed amongst the three tested, the offerer was disqualified. The "drop test" was a points-system test, and it took 2 of the 3 pistols failing to disqualify the offerer.
What I'm getting at is that Federal agencies and the Army no longer want precision, hand-built pistols. They want cheap, reliable pistols that are easy to maintain, fix, and replace. There was also a misnomer regarding the Army's MHS (modular handgun system) that the "modular" meant modular in the sense of the P320's modularity. People wondered how other pistols that didn't have the P320's modular chassis system were able to submit pistols. In reality, the MHS "modularity" was more about changing grips (replaceable backstraps was acceptable) and the interchanbaility (drop-in) of small parts. Gone are the days of hand-fit pistols. If the Army/FBI/ICE experience an individual barrel failure, they expect to drop-in a new barrel.
As well it should be.
Why pay an armorer to fit parts and tune when a simpler and cheaper option exists?
The average consumer might not care if his pistol's recoil spring assembly is $12 or $40 as he probably won't ever buy a replacement. But an agency should certainly take this stuff into consideration.
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the g2 gold dot is less effective then the regular gold dot. And this is what the fbi chose.
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Maybe you're thinking of the initial release of the G2, which had some issues. But the G2 was apparently one of the most barrier-blind ammunitions tested. The G2 also puts more emphasis on penetration than expansion, which the FBI's test favors. For example, the HST expands more than the G2, but at the expense of roughly 2 inches of penetration. Here is a great thread with some great visuals about the differences between the HST, G2, and Ranger T (all 147gr):
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20650-9-mm-147-gr-duty-load-testing
As well it should be.
Why pay an armorer to fit parts and tune when a simpler and cheaper option exists?
The average consumer might not care if his pistol's recoil spring assembly is $12 or $40 as he probably won't ever buy a replacement. But an agency should certainly take this stuff into consideration.
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Can you tell me which guns require fitting and tuning AND which ones are issued to the Feds, military and large PD's/SO's?
C4
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Maybe you're thinking of the initial release of the G2, which had some issues. But the G2 was apparently one of the most barrier-blind ammunitions tested. The G2 also puts more emphasis on penetration than expansion, which the FBI's test favors. For example, the HST expands more than the G2, but at the expense of roughly 2 inches of penetration. Here is a great thread with some great visuals about the differences between the HST, G2, and Ranger T (all 147gr):
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20650-9-mm-147-gr-duty-load-testing
Correct. The initial run had issues and were dumped to LE dealers in the form of "training G2." I think this what confuses he general public. We sold a lot of this G2 on our range. Super accurate and reliable.
C4
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If the P320 failed any single phase, testing would have seized. Like I mentioned earlier, there seems to be a lot of confounding information out there that does not match the RFP. For example, had the P320 failed the drop test, per the RFP, the P320 would have been removed from further testing and removed from consideration.
Sure, ICE could have cheated the test in favor of the P320, in the same way the FBI could have cheated the test against the P320, but I really doubt either possibility.
I am not saying any agency cheated. If ICE had 10 pistols to choose from and only chose 3 to drop test, then it is 100% possible that they never tested the 320.
From everything I heard, the FBI wanted the 320. They did in fact have issues with their Glocks. So it shocked me (and lots of others in the loop) when they didn't choose the gun).
C4
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I am not saying any agency cheated. If ICE had 10 pistols to choose from and only chose 3 to drop test, then it is 100% possible that they never tested the 320.
From everything I heard, the FBI wanted the 320. They did in fact have issues with their Glocks. So it shocked me (and lots of others in the loop) when they didn't choose the gun).
C4
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You're reading the protocol incorrectly. Pistol brands/models were tested and rated using the same standards. They didn't just throw all the pistols submitted in a bin and pull a few out at random to test.
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You're reading the protocol incorrectly. Pistol brands/models were tested and rated using the same standards. They didn't just throw all the pistols submitted in a bin and pull a few out at random to test.
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That could be. I am not as familiar with their test system as others. It is also possible that their 320's passed the drop test and the FBI's failed. Might have been a bad run. Would like to see the dates of each agencies tested.
C4
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I am not saying any agency cheated. If ICE had 10 pistols to choose from and only chose 3 to drop test, then it is 100% possible that they never tested the 320.
From everything I heard, the FBI wanted the 320. They did in fact have issues with their Glocks. So it shocked me (and lots of others in the loop) when they didn't choose the gun).
C4
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Oh I see, I thought you meant they skirted the test. As Tokarev states, each offerer submitted 9 pistols for testing, and the testers randomly selected 3 from each offerer.
Oh I see, I thought you meant they skirted the test. As Tokarev states, each offerer submitted 9 pistols for testing, and the testers randomly selected 3 from each offerer.
That makes more sense.
C4
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Correct. The initial run had issues and were dumped to LE dealers in the form of "training G2." I think this what confuses he general public. We sold a lot of this G2 on our range. Super accurate and reliable.
C4
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I know it's not the most important thing when it comes to defense loads, but how clean is G2? Do you find any noticeable fouling difference between G2 and HST? Also, out of curiousity, have you had a chance to shoot it at night, and, if so, what do you think of the flash?
I know it's not the most important thing when it comes to defense loads, but how clean is G2? Do you find any noticeable fouling difference between G2 and HST? Also, out of curiousity, have you had a chance to shoot it at night, and, if so, what do you think of the flash?
I have used a small amount of both 9 and 40 G2. It leaves some sooty residue on feed ramps and along the front of the magazine. It does not appear to leave a heavy buildup and the soot will wipe off pretty easily. Also no signs of unburned powder that I've noticed.
No experience yet with muzzle flash or flash from the ejection port.
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Here is a tidbit of info I had found. Seems that the firearm should never fire even when dropped according to it's design feature.
F.B.I. Request For Proposals Requirements
First, the RFP requires manufacturers to provide a Compact, Full Size, Inert (Red Handle) Training, and Man Marker Training Pistols (Blue – Simunition), along with parts and armorer tools as needed. The firearm must be chambered in 9mm. For the most part, most major firearm manufacturers could provide all the necessary firearms and trainers.
BARREL LENGTH – Full size must be 4.26″ to 5.20″; Compact size must be 3.75″ to 4.25″
HEIGHT – Full size no more than 6.0″; Compact between 4.75″ to 5.6″
MAGAZINE CAPACITY – Full size at least 16 rounds; Compact at least 14 rounds
MAGAZINE DISCONNECT SAFETY – None allowed
COCKING – Only by trigger pull
TRIGGER – Firing pin/Striker fired only
TRIGGER PULL – 4.5 lbs. to 6 lbs.
MAGAZINE RELEASE – Laterally pushed, no levers
MANUAL EXTERNAL SAFETY – None allowed
DECOCKING LEVER – None allowed
GRIP SAFETY – None allowed
FRAME/RECEIVER – No finger grooves allowed, must have (3) sizes – small, medium, large; can be accomplished through inserts or different frame sizes.
PICATINNY RAIL – Required for pistol mounted lights.
SIG SAUER P320 Compact
The Sig P320 Compact. (photo by Sig Sauer)
How the FBI RFP Selects the Sig P320
Action – Striker fired DAO – cocked only through trigger pull
Overall Length – 8.0″
Barrel Length – 4.7″
Weight – 29.4 oz. (with magazine)
Height – 5.5″
Width – 1.4″
Trigger Pull – 5.5 lbs.
Capacity – 17 rounds
Magazine Release – Button pushed laterally
Sights – SIGLITE night sights
Grips – Interchangeable
Rail – Picatinny
Not Included – External manual safety; Finger grooves on frame; Grip safety; Magazine disconnect safety.
ALL THESE FEATURES MEET THE FBI RFP
FBI HQ in Washington DC
This RFP went through FBI Headquarters in Washington D.C. (photo by FBI)
How the FBI RFP Disqualifies Most
Glock 17 & 19 – DISQUALIFIED – Finger grooves on frame
Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm – DISQUALIFIED – Trigger pull is 6.5 lbs.; Barrel Length is 4.25″
Smith & Wesson M&P 9c – DISQUALIFIED – Barrel length is 3.5″; Capacity is only 12.
Heckler & Koch VP9 – DISQUALIFIED – Finger grooves; Lever magazine release; Barrel length is 4.09″
Heckler & Koch P30 – DISQUALIFIED – Capacity only 15; DA/SA action; Finger grooves on frame
Ruger SR9 – DISQUALIFIED – Barrel length is 4.1″; No compact model or adjustable frame sizes
Springfield XD9 – DISQUALIFIED – Grip safety; Barrel length is 4.0″
Springfield XDm – DISQUALIFIED – Grip safety
Walther PPX – DISQUALIFIED – Finger grooves on frame; Trigger pull is 6.5 lbs.
Walther PPQ M2 – DISQUALIFIED – Capacity only 15; Finger grooves on frame
Walther P99 – DISQUALIFIED – Finger grooves on frame; Lever magazine release; Capacity only 15
FNS 9 – DISQUALIFIED – Trigger pull up to 7.7 lbs.; Barrel length is 4.0″; No size changes for frame
FNX 9 – DISQUALIFIED – Decocking lever; Barrel length is 4.0″; No size changes for frame
Beretta M9 – DISQUALIFIED – DA/SA action; Capacity only 15; External manual safety
Beretta Px4 – DISQUALIFIED – External manual safety; Barrel length is 4.0″; DA/SA action
CZ75 SP-01- DISQUALIFIED – DA/SA action; External manual safety
CZ P09 – DISQUALIFIED – DA/SA action; External manual safety-decocker
Did they do a drop test? If not, then they wouldn't know. I know now of two incidents were a student either dropped a gun or it fell off the roof of a car and went off.
I am all for a cheap gun that works, but failing 3 of then 5 FBI tests is a no go.
C4
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To clarify, you know of two incidences where specifically the P320 went off from being dropped or do you mean that's just happened with other firearms?
I know it's not the most important thing when it comes to defense loads, but how clean is G2? Do you find any noticeable fouling difference between G2 and HST? Also, out of curiousity, have you had a chance to shoot it at night, and, if so, what do you think of the flash?
I have not noticed the G2 to be worse or better than the other options out.
I have not had a chance to shoot it at night yet.
C4
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To clarify, you know of two incidences where specifically the P320 went off from being dropped or do you mean that's just happened with other firearms?
The 320 went off when dropped.
C4
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Here's an interesting take on departmental firearms selection.
Although I agree with the author on some points I don't agree with all.
https://www.policeone.com/police-products/firearms/articles/1665813-Examining-the-value-of-departmental-weapons-testing-and-evaluation/
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To clarify, you know of two incidences where specifically the P320 went off from being dropped or do you mean that's just happened with other firearms?
To clarify, about the P320 going off when dropped I call B.S. It was purposely designed to block any forward movement of the firing pin with an internal blocker until the trigger was depressed enough to lift the block.
I have 2 P320s One a Compact .45 and the other a Carry 9mm. I made sure both were empty. Using a dead blow hammer I hit bottom, top, sides, everywhere multiple times HARD, and they still dry fire. Yes, I know the difference between their "click" and a normal dry fire. The sound is unmistakable.
What more than likely happened is these 2 incidents were a Cover Your Ass lie after they had fiddled Fu$@# around with it and accidentally had a discharge, and more than likely damaged property. Best answer by these two was "Not my fault. Doesn't have a safety and I thought it was unloaded and fell and fired." Gun's fault. The fault lied between these people's 2 ears my guess.
Unless my 2 pistols are the exception to the rule, they don't go off if dropped. Period. I gave them more chances with a dead blow hammer to have dropped the firing pin than any 48" test by the FBI or ICE, or the two "supposed" dropped firearms.
I believe the concern with the SIG is the lack of an exernal trigger block that keeps the trigger from moving rearward unless actually pressed. In theory the SIG trigger can develop enough momentum to travel rearward if the pistol is dropped from a significant height and lands muzzle up or is otherwise subjected to a severe blow.
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To clarify, about the P320 going off when dropped I call B.S. It was purposely designed to block any forward movement of the firing pin with an internal blocker until the trigger was depressed enough to lift the block.
I have 2 P320s One a Compact .45 and the other a Carry 9mm. I made sure both were empty. Using a dead blow hammer I hit bottom, top, sides, everywhere multiple times HARD, and they still dry fire. Yes, I know the difference between their "click" and a normal dry fire. The sound is unmistakable.
What more than likely happened is these 2 incidents were a Cover Your Ass lie after they had fiddled Fu$@# around with it and accidentally had a discharge, and more than likely damaged property. Best answer by these two was "Not my fault. Doesn't have a safety and I thought it was unloaded and fell and fired." Gun's fault. The fault lied between these people's 2 ears my guess.
Unless my 2 pistols are the exception to the rule, they don't go off if dropped. Period. I gave them more chances with a dead blow hammer to have dropped the firing pin than any 48" test by the FBI or ICE, or the two "supposed" dropped firearms.
No. In both instances, the instructor was there and then informed me about it.
The 320 also failed the FBI's drop test.
C4
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No. In both instances, the instructor was there and then informed me about it.
The 320 also failed the FBI's drop test.
C4
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It seems really strange is all, considering the firing pin block they have in that pistol. I saw your "About Us" page on your website and YOU are one well educated individual in firearms, that is for certain. Hats off to you and Roxanne for your service to our country.
Nothing if full proof, but the whole idea behind that firing pin block was to make sure that something like a dropped pistol could never actually fire. SIG has no external safety, except in the one accessory model of the P320 that has a safety, but I think that would have been an automatic disqualification for the FBI.
Just seems odd is all, since I simply cannot get the pistol to release the striker no matter how severe I hit it with a dead blow (rubber) hammer. No, I'm not about to take one of my perfectly good pistols out and drop it on the cement just to prove a point. LOL
What are the specifics of the bureau's drop test? Are we talking 4 ft out of a holster or off the top of the Hoover building?
It seems really strange is all, considering the firing pin block they have in that pistol. I saw your "About Us" page on your website and YOU are one well educated individual in firearms, that is for certain. Hats off to you and Roxanne for your service to our country.
Nothing if full proof, but the whole idea behind that firing pin block was to make sure that something like a dropped pistol could never actually fire. SIG has no external safety, except in the one accessory model of the P320 that has a safety, but I think that would have been an automatic disqualification for the FBI.
Just seems odd is all, since I simply cannot get the pistol to release the striker no matter how severe I hit it with a dead blow (rubber) hammer. No, I'm not about to take one of my perfectly good pistols out and drop it on the cement just to prove a point. LOL
All things fail. What is interesting to me is that the FBI found it and the ICE did not. Why? I believe the FBI test is to drop the pistol 6ft and ICE test is 4ft? In the instance of the student nearly getting his head blown off, the pistol slid off he roof of his truck (easily a 6ft drop). Did something break? Did a spring give due to lack of tensile strength? I simply do not know.
Besides this, I also know that gun has not done well in the accuracy department at recent foreign military T&E.
I have 3 of these pistols on our range as rental guns. They don't seem to have any issues, but I have not checked slide to hood fit or shot for accuracy. I also haven't drop tested them. Might have to get some blanks and do some in house testing.
Personally, I don't care what people like or don't like. I sell these pistols all the time and they seem to be well liked by the end users. For me though, I won't be carrying one any time soon.
C4
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All things fail. What is interesting to me is that the FBI found it and the ICE did not. Why? I believe the FBI test is to drop the pistol 6ft and ICE test is 4ft? In the instance of the student nearly getting his head blown off, the pistol slid off he roof of his truck (easily a 6ft drop). Did something break? Did a spring give due to lack of tensile strength? I simply do not know.
Besides this, I also know that gun has not done well in the accuracy department at recent foreign military T&E.
I have 3 of these pistols on our range as rental guns. They don't seem to have any issues, but I have not checked slide to hood fit or shot for accuracy. I also haven't drop tested them. Might have to get some blanks and do some in house testing.
Personally, I don't care what people like or don't like. I sell these pistols all the time and they seem to be well liked by the end users. For me though, I won't be carrying one any time soon.
C4
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Do any of your rental guns, stand out from the rest, as far as reliability and the least amount of repairs needed?
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Do any of your rental guns, stand out from the rest, as far as reliability and the least amount of repairs needed?
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No repairs on any of them. The G42/43 and shield are by far the most shot guns. Then followed by the G19, VP9 and Sig Legions. The only gun that has had to go back to the factory was the S&W Victory.
Honorable mention goes to the S&W M&P 22 compact. Reliable even when dirty and dry.
C4
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At this link it appears ICE has chosen the SIG P320 for their duty firearm. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24441-It-s-Official-SIG-P320C-is-the-new-ICE-HSI-duty-gun
What I did read in that short thread was that SIG actually strengthened the spring on the striker, along with some other design changes. A stronger spring, giving better tension, may not have been as easily to dislodge as a weaker spring. Even at that the firing pin bock should have caught the firing pin, unless someone tinkered with it and did not get the small spring back in there as it should have been.
I had thought the fbi also did 48".
I have 3 of these pistols on our range as rental guns. They don't seem to have any issues, but I have not checked slide to hood fit or shot for accuracy. I also haven't drop tested them. Might have to get some blanks and do some in house testing.
I'd be interested in hearing about the slide hood fit ranges for the 320s you have. I saw you posted a while back you thought they were going to be on a whole more tighter than (current production?) Glocks and would be interested in seeing if that still holds up.
I have 3 of these pistols on our range as rental guns. They don't seem to have any issues, but I have not checked slide to hood fit or shot for accuracy. I also haven't drop tested them. Might have to get some blanks and do some in house testing.
Personally, I don't care what people like or don't like. I sell these pistols all the time and they seem to be well liked by the end users. For me though, I won't be carrying one any time soon
Good idea with the blanks, and thanks for a true unbiased opinion. I think someone's going to have to sacrifice something being dropped over 6' on concrete for a realistic test. I too would be curious to see what has caused any malfunction with the blocker mech.. I absolutely love mine so far, but if there is a true defect, I'd like to know so that Sig can fix it for me.
I'm relatively knew to carrying striker firing pistols, as I always carried a DA/SA model back when I was a LEO. I know my 220/226/229/239/230's and HK USP were bulletproof when I carried them on duty spanning a period of 25 years. You've got my attention with this potential 320 issue...
At this link it appears ICE has chosen the SIG P320 for their duty firearm. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24441-It-s-Official-SIG-P320C-is-the-new-ICE-HSI-duty-gun
What I did read in that short thread was that SIG actually strengthened the spring on the striker, along with some other design changes. A stronger spring, giving better tension, may not have been as easily to dislodge as a weaker spring. Even at that the firing pin bock should have caught the firing pin, unless someone tinkered with it and did not get the small spring back in there as it should have been.
Why would you change springs if there isn't any issues. Hmmm...
C4
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I'd be interested in hearing about the slide hood fit ranges for the 320s you have. I saw you posted a while back you thought they were going to be on a whole more tighter than (current production?) Glocks and would be interested in seeing if that still holds up.
Will check a few out and report back.
C4
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John Farnham has this article : link: http://www.ammoland.com/2014/01/more-sig-p320-pistol/#axzz4ZrDtjNlc SIG Sauer P320 passes NIJ, SAAMI and NATO drop-tests . They have an internal block that prevents any discharge unless the trigger is pulled rearward.
Coal Dragger
02-26-17, 23:06
I don't think Grant will be swayed on this. For his own reasons he really doesn't care for the P320. I don't see him changing his mind on that.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-26-17, 23:49
You would think whoever was involved in the final selection at ICE would be aware of the FBI's findings. Either they know something we don't or they are too lazy to call anybody. Probably 50/50 chance of either.
Well, quite a number of pages back I chimed in about the ability to change calibers. I noticed that my new .45 ACP in P320 has the old style grip frame (Gen1) as well as Gen 1 slide catch. Other than the size and position of the "tabs" they are pretty much the same. If I swap my slide catch between the 2 pistols, I can put the .45 ACP (with the Gen2 slide catch) into my frame for the Carry P320 in 9mm and shoots and ejects just fine. Sunday I went out and run a box of 50 through it at targets, 9mm. Shot and ejected fine. I was trying out the laser on the front and was shooting 3&5 group single hole shots. So I know the 9mm is no slacker for accuracy. I have had excellent group sizes with the .45 too and I am just getting familiar with the P320 s .
There is a striker catch safety that is in the always "on" position, meaning it is always stopping any forward movement, until the trigger pulls the striker back (striker is not FULLY cocked), and the action pushes that drop safety device up and out of the way. Virtually impossible to drop the firearm and have it go off IF it is assembled correctly.
44203
44204
John Farnham has this article : link: http://www.ammoland.com/2014/01/more-sig-p320-pistol/#axzz4ZrDtjNlc SIG Sauer P320 passes NIJ, SAAMI and NATO drop-tests . They have an internal block that prevents any discharge unless the trigger is pulled rearward.
I am really not understanding how the gun failed. I get that some stuff breaks. But the way it is designed, It would seem it would not happen. I know a lot of people have not liked it for various reasons, or the primer strikes some guys had. But out of all of the complaints I have never heard of the drop test failure happening. Until this. I like mine more and more, I had reservations but the more I shoot the p320 the more I like it.
John Farnham has this article : link: http://www.ammoland.com/2014/01/more-sig-p320-pistol/#axzz4ZrDtjNlc SIG Sauer P320 passes NIJ, SAAMI and NATO drop-tests . They have an internal block that prevents any discharge unless the trigger is pulled rearward.
Most all guns have some sort of drop safety. That doesn't mean they cannot fail.
C4
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Deleted as it was not true per conversation with SIG Armorer.
I am really not understanding how the gun failed. I get that some stuff breaks. But the way it is designed, It would seem it would not happen. I know a lot of people have not liked it for various reasons, or the primer strikes some guys had. But out of all of the complaints I have never heard of the drop test failure happening. Until this. I like mine more and more, I had reservations but the more I shoot the p320 the more I like it.
This pretty much sums it up for me. I did as much due diligence on this purchase, as a mere mortal man could. After all, I've been carrying the older generation Sigs around since 1988. This is a big move for me to switch to the striker platform for EDC. Now...
Most all guns have some sort of drop safety. That doesn't mean they cannot fail.
C4
OK. Fair point. NOTHING is fail-safe. Nothing.
So now, are we talking about a 0.05% failure rate on the 320, or are we talking about a 1-2% failure rate or even higher? THAT is the question I'd like to see answered. So far from what I am able to gather as just another nobody, is that the failure rate would be less than 0.5%. Possibly much less than 0.5%. I bet if I really wanted to (by ruining it), I could make my old W. German 220 fire without pulling the trigger too. If you try hard enough to make something fail, you just might be successful...
This pretty much sums it up for me. I did as much due diligence on this purchase, as a mere mortal man could. After all, I've been carrying the older generation Sigs around since 1988. This is a big move for me to switch to the striker platform for EDC. Now...
OK. Fair point. NOTHING is fail-safe. Nothing.
So now, are we talking about a 0.05% failure rate on the 320, or are we talking about a 1-2% failure rate or even higher? THAT is the question I'd like to see answered. So far from what I am able to gather as just another nobody, is that the failure rate would be less than 0.5%. Possibly much less than 0.5%. I bet if I really wanted to (by ruining it), I could make my old W. German 220 fire without pulling the trigger too. If you try hard enough to make something fail, you just might be successful...
Well since the FBI DQ'd the gun and then I know of two more incidents, I am guessing that it isn't as "un-common" as we may believe. This is unless SIG learned something from the FBI test and then addressed it. Time will tell.
C4
Measured the hood to slide fit on the 320C. It is .003. This is on par with Glock and the M&P 2.0 from what we have seen. Not great, but ok for a service pistol.
Also measured the trigger pull weight. Came out to 5.5-5.9 lbs.
C4
Well since the FBI DQ'd the gun and then I know of two more incidents, I am guessing that it isn't as "un-common" as we may believe. This is unless SIG learned something from the FBI test and then addressed it. Time will tell.
C4
Agreed. Please keep us posted. IF there is indeed a problem, I imagine it will surface rather quickly when the Army really starts shaking these out.
Agreed. Please keep us posted. IF there is indeed a problem, I imagine it will surface rather quickly when the Army really starts shaking these out.
Honestly, I don't think they will because of the Thumb Safety. They would have to do a drop test with the TS not engaged.
C4
Just got off the phone with a SIG armorer, Robert, who confirmed to me that the only way they ever got the pistol to fire, on impacts, was to actually take out that safety block and then to hit down hard, on the magazine, which would then make it fire. He said "hitting it hard like you were driving a nail." Other than that, with the safety in place we have never gotten it to fire when dropped or hit.. severely. He also said the chances were in the . three decimal places, so 0.001 per cent that it could happen.
The FBI test the issue was the magazine floor plate broke during the drop test. This is from Robert C. Burke, a Factory Certified Armorer of SIG Sauer.
I'll trust his input over internet rumor and speculations.
EDIT: I also stand corrected on the striker being relaxed. It is cocked (compressed) in it's normal state, and the trigger, unlike the Glock, does not finish compressing the striker spring during the trigger movement... per Robert B.
ALSO -> Talking with SIG Sauer, the Army has not given specifics to the pistol as yet. I was asking about the external safety, and they do not know, as yet,if there is or going to be any external safety for the military contract. They are looking at a whole different production set up just to handle the military contract.
556BlackRifle
02-27-17, 10:40
Well since the FBI DQ'd the gun and then I know of two more incidents, I am guessing that it isn't as "un-common" as we may believe. This is unless SIG learned something from the FBI test and then addressed it. Time will tell.
C4
I wonder if there could be a weak spring under the firing pin block? If dropped just right, the block disengages and kinetics move the striker forward onto the round? We may never know but that would be my guess.
As far as the P320 replacing my G19 as EDC, I want to but I'm not so sure it will work for me. The medium frame is just a bit too wide for CC IMO. I've ordered the compact small, and will see how it goes with that but honestly, it's going to be an uphill battle. My G19 just melts away whereas the Sig bulges out. At least it does for me.
I wonder if there could be a weak spring under the firing pin block? If dropped just right, the block disengages and kinetics move the striker forward onto the round? We may never know but that would be my guess.
As far as the P320 replacing my G19 as EDC, I want to but I'm not so sure it will work for me. The medium frame is just a bit too wide for CC IMO. I've ordered the compact small, and will see how it goes with that but honestly, it's going to be an uphill battle. My G19 just melts away whereas the Sig bulges out. At least it does for me.
That is my thought or idea. Like most pistols, the manufacturer is constantly tweaking them (typically to lower the cost of the pistol). S&W was famous for this when they decided to replace the sear spring in the M&P with a spring from a J-Frame (in order to save .02). Insert eye roll here.
C4
From SIG Sauer rep.. no specification as yet if the Army is getting the external safety. They have not divulged to them their specifics as to date. Also, SIG Sauer rep was pretty adamant that is was impossible to get the P320 to fire from being dropped.
Is Glock protesting the new procurement?
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I wonder if there could be a weak spring under the firing pin block? If dropped just right, the block disengages and kinetics move the striker forward onto the round? We may never know but that would be my guess.
As far as the P320 replacing my G19 as EDC, I want to but I'm not so sure it will work for me. The medium frame is just a bit too wide for CC IMO. I've ordered the compact small, and will see how it goes with that but honestly, it's going to be an uphill battle. My G19 just melts away whereas the Sig bulges out. At least it does for me.
I'm kind of with you on the carry bit. I've carried the .45 P320 this last week, in a Cross Breed holster that was actually designed for my SP2022 9mm, but seems to fit reasonably well. However, my favorite carry is my Taurus Millennium GII in 9mm. Shorter, lighter, and thinner than the SIGs I have. I like the fact that the overall length of the barrel to back end is shorter since it doesn't gouge into me when sitting in the car like the SIGs have. The .45 is a small grip in a compact frame module and I like it a lot better than my Medium on the 9mm. Interesting is that the .45 fits the older SP2022 holster better than the 9mm in the Medium grip. When I get a chance to get in the small grips for the 9mm, will let you know. Right now their about as scarce as hen's teeth.
From SIG Sauer rep.. no specification as yet if the Army is getting the external safety. They have not divulged to them their specifics as to date. Also, SIG Sauer rep was pretty adamant that is was impossible to get the P320 to fire from being dropped.
Army and TS: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/01/19/us-armys-next-gun-sigs-p320-compact-mhs-shot-17/
Good thread about 320 issues and a possible reason why the 320 failed the FBI test (early model that was "tweaked"): https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23557-Sig-P320-quot-failed-FBI-test-miserably-quot
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MountainRaven
02-27-17, 13:33
My understanding is that SiG semi-resolved the issue between the FBI guns and the Army guns, but only succeeded in reducing the likelihood of a discharge, not totally fixing it.
My understanding is that the issue is not being dropped on the pistol's muzzle, but being dropped on the breach-end of the slide.
If the firing pin safety is locked against the striker somehow and SiG's solution was a stiffer/stronger striker spring, it would suggest that if the striker/firing pin is able to retract rearward a small amount that the firing pin safety might disengage and - with the firing pin's travel no longer inhibited by the firing pin safety, moving forward under spring pressure - boom! But this is speculation, as I am not familiar with the particulars of the P320's operation (beyond the typical striker-fired, short-recoil operation).
My understanding is that SiG semi-resolved the issue between the FBI guns and the Army guns, but only succeeded in reducing the likelihood of a discharge, not totally fixing it.
My understanding is that the issue is not being dropped on the pistol's muzzle, but being dropped on the breach-end of the slide.
If the firing pin safety is locked against the striker somehow and SiG's solution was a stiffer/stronger striker spring, it would suggest that if the striker/firing pin is able to retract rearward a small amount that the firing pin safety might disengage and - with the firing pin's travel no longer inhibited by the firing pin safety, moving forward under spring pressure - boom! But this is speculation, as I am not familiar with the particulars of the P320's operation (beyond the typical striker-fired, short-recoil operation).
I think this is the most plausible reason for how a gun fails one test, but passes two others.
C4
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/08/20/recalled-already-new-glocks-less-perfection/
They are all prone to having to be "tweaked" a bit I guess.. FBI's new pistol
Kind of curious on what grounds this is based:
"Firearms manufacturer Glock has filed a protest with the government over the Army's award of a new pistol contract to competitor Sig Sauer, according to documents filed with the Government Accountability Office on Friday."
https://www.armytimes.com/articles/glock-protests-armys-choice-of-sig-sauer-for-new-handgun
Is Glock protesting the new procurement?
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Yes.
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/02/27/glock-protests-xm17-modular-handgun-system-award/
C4
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The Dumb Gun Collector
02-27-17, 17:23
Wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer fixed something after failing a Fed test. Didn't Glock have to reengineer/ non recall/recall their guns after failing the "Frisbee Test" back in the day?
Digital_Damage
02-27-17, 18:24
standard procedure now days.
Outlander Systems
02-27-17, 18:49
What grounds? Perfection, dude. That's what.
:p
sinlessorrow
02-28-17, 00:38
My understanding is that SiG semi-resolved the issue between the FBI guns and the Army guns, but only succeeded in reducing the likelihood of a discharge, not totally fixing it.
My understanding is that the issue is not being dropped on the pistol's muzzle, but being dropped on the breach-end of the slide.
If the firing pin safety is locked against the striker somehow and SiG's solution was a stiffer/stronger striker spring, it would suggest that if the striker/firing pin is able to retract rearward a small amount that the firing pin safety might disengage and - with the firing pin's travel no longer inhibited by the firing pin safety, moving forward under spring pressure - boom! But this is speculation, as I am not familiar with the particulars of the P320's operation (beyond the typical striker-fired, short-recoil operation).
Here is the current gen strike and safety.
The main change they made was the spring is stronger, and they changed the way the safety interfaces and blocks the striker.
You can see here that is when the spring first engages the slide, once you push the striker in all the way there is now spring pressure forcing it to the rear forcing it to be engaged by the safety.
http://i.imgur.com/0xui5LB.jpg
And here is the striker assembly removed from the slide.
http://i.imgur.com/XggdmeY.jpg
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/3/1/mhs-update-glock-protests-sig-sauer-result/
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