Body Armor Q&A

[lymanbishop]

I am a mechanical engineer with over 10 years experience working with body armor. While I am affiliated with Hoplite Armor the purpose of this thread is NOT to sell you on anything, but rather to answer any questions that you may have. There are a lot of factors that should go into your buying decision, especially these days, and I wanted to make myself available to answer those questions for you.

Fire away...

[HKGuns]

Do you still think Ceramic is better than Steel? :)

[lymanbishop]

Do you still think Ceramic is better than Steel? :)

Short answer is yes. I can explain if you like.

[HKGuns]

Please do, for the benefit of everyone.

[Dabster]

For several years we have been hearing of revolutionarily lighter and cheaper body armor (and night vision but that's another thread) being just a short time out...

Prices have gone down a bit and lighter ceramic armor is now out but I'm not seeing any huge changes.

Do you see big changes coming soon?

Thanks!

[lymanbishop]

Please do, for the benefit of everyone.

Lets first define what a quality “Ceramic” plate would be;
Level III+ / IV
Ceramic / Polyethylene composite
In order to obtain Level III+ (M855) and above with a lightweight (under 5lbs) polyethylene composite you need a lightweight, hard surface such as ceramic to act as a breaker plate in order to stop high velocity steel core rounds.
The Polyethylene material is comprised of HDPE (High Density Polyethylene) infused with UHMWPE (Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene) fibers. The plies are then pressed under high heat and pressure and cut to shape.
The ceramic comes in numerous chemical variations and acts as the “breaker plate”, fragmenting the steel core, thereby allowing the backer plate to contain any resulting spall.
The use of these materials allows for lightweight plates to be formed with multiple curves and complex geometry which in turn results in better ergonomics; reducing wear stress by evenly distributing the weight of the system across the wearers’ body. Most PE composite plates these days have a padded inner lining behind the wrap which adds to the wear-ability of the system and reduces the effects of blunt force impact trauma.
Steel plates can handle M855 but cannot achieve Level IV. I’ve never been shot wearing one but I would imagine it would ring your bell pretty good.
Steel plates can only be effectively shaped in a single curve and are extremely heavy (8 lbs.) by comparison with the latest composite materials. That makes them a lot less comfortable and much more difficult to wear for long periods.
Steel can also cause excessive spall / fragmentation. Rhino liner does a decent job of mitigating that, and the techniques people use get better all the time, but it still scares me. One shot tends to pull up a large section of liner and the next shot anywhere close would be really bad news for the wearer and anyone around him. I’ve heard all the arguments, and if you want post-apocalyptic armor that can get shot up for years on end then by all means, get some steel plates and some extra cans of spray on liner. It just might work.
I know a lot of guys that stand by their steel plates, but when you’ve got a room full of 20, AR-15’s worth tens of thousands of dollars and a $300 armor rig I tend to feel like something is out of balance. For $1,000 you can get a lightweight, minimalistic rig with quality armor plates from dozens of different distributors on-line.

[lymanbishop]

For several years we have been hearing of revolutionarily lighter and cheaper body armor (and night vision but that's another thread) being just a short time out...

Prices have gone down a bit and lighter ceramic armor is now out but I'm not seeing any huge changes.

Do you see big changes coming soon?

Thanks!


Recent changes include the use of lighter polymer armors which have dropped the weight of high systems considerably. The only problem is price. High end 10"x12", 5 pound, Level IV plates retail for almost $1,400 a piece.
Mid range materials can get you a 10"x12", Level III+ plate at 5 lbs. for $400+.
Both of those are major improvements that have taken place in recent years and the fact that they are available to civilians is something to consider. HR 378 is a Bill that was recently proposed by Congressman Mike Honda, (D) CA which would restrict civilian ownership of body armor. The proposed penalties include 10 years in prison, however there is an exception written into the Bill that would grandfather in any previously owned systems. This Bill is highly unlikely to pass but shows intent on the part of some members of the Federal Government. Something to consider.
There have also been recent changes to various coatings. DefenseTech has a product called DefendX which is a spray on coating that seems to greatly improve the multi-hit capability of standard Level III polyethylene plates through the use of a self healing polymer outer skin. Possibly even allowing for III+ capability. I cannot confirm this as I have not, as of yet, tested these plates first hand or had access to any test results.
In the future I expect the use a Carbon Nanotubes replace UHMWPE (Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene) fibers. If done properly this could be a game changer. Estimated time to market 5-10 years.
Coatings are also likely to become more common and more advanced and I expect to see increased use of these materials in the short term.

[Ledanek]

I am a mechanical engineer with over 10 years experience working with body armor. While I am affiliated with Hoplite Armor the purpose of this thread is NOT to sell you on anything, but rather to answer any questions that you may have. There are a lot of factors that should go into your buying decision, especially these days, and I wanted to make myself available to answer those questions for you.

Fire away...

If there is one company that you would like to work for because of their product, that you find interesting, who would it be? What was that product that you found interesting? Why was that product interesting?
Is this industry very political, i.e. government contract?

Thanks for doing this by the way.

[lymanbishop]

If there is one company that you would like to work for because of their product, that you find interesting, who would it be? What was that product that you found interesting? Why was that product interesting?
Is this industry very political, i.e. government contract?

Thanks for doing this by the way.

I almost went to work for Safariland years ago. They are a big company with a huge budget and it would have been nice to have those resources. They dont have any specific products that interest me but they can cut through a lot of political BS due to their connections. At this point I like Hesco Armor due to the quality of their products. I would probably work for them given the opportunity.
The industry is highly political on the military side. Contracts are given to friends and substandard projects are funded and fielded based on connections. Some of the military R&D facilities will burn you if you send them white papers and the lead scientists are not what I would expect. In fact its so bad that I will only do business with Special Forces units as they have their own funding and buy what they want, not what they are told to buy. This is another one of my comments thats not likely to be welcomed, but I have to call them as I see them.

[Ledanek]

I almost went to work for Safariland years ago. They are a big company with a huge budget and it would have been nice to have those resources. They dont have any specific products that interest me but they can cut through a lot of political BS due to their connections. At this point I like Hesco Armor due to the quality of their products. I would probably work for them given the opportunity.
The industry is highly political on the military side. Contracts are given to friends and substandard projects are funded and fielded based on connections. Some of the military R&D facilities will burn you if you send them white papers and the lead scientists are not what I would expect. In fact its so bad that I will only do business with Special Forces units as they have their own funding and buy what they want, not what they are told to buy. This is another one of my comments thats not likely to be welcomed, but I have to call them as I see them.

Very interesting.
If you have time for more Q&A
Can you rate the top three Ceramic Plate makers, one being the best?
Can you rate the top three Steel Plate makers, one being the best?

[texancarbine73]

Is Dyneema a good material for plates? The reason I ask is that I saw a 10X12 level 3+ at 4.25 lbs and price is right within my price range.
Thanks!

PS: nice helmets you have on Hopelite

[Mr blasty]

Is Dyneema a good material for plates? The reason I ask is that I saw a 10X12 level 3+ at 4.25 lbs and price is right within my price range.
Thanks!

PS: nice helmets you have on Hopelite

That's like asking if goretex the best. It is if you get Arcteryx or outdoor reaserch, but not some unknown house brand with goretex fabric. Dyneema is just a material. What really matters is how it's utilitized and the engineering put behind it to utilize it's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses. In the climbing world there are times when you want Dyneema and times you want nylon instead. Some products excel under certain circumstances and fail under others. Dyneema is certainly one of those when it comes to climbing. I can not speak to armor however and it very well could be number one.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

[texancarbine73]

That's like asking if goretex the best. It is if you get Arcteryx or outdoor reaserch, but not some unknown house brand with goretex fabric. Dyneema is just a material. What really matters is how it's utilitized and the engineering put behind it to utilize it's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses. In the climbing world there are times when you want Dyneema and times you want nylon instead. Some products excel under certain circumstances and fail under others. Dyneema is certainly one of those when it comes to climbing. I can not speak to armor however and it very well could be number one.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

Thanks

[lymanbishop]

Is Dyneema a good material for plates? The reason I ask is that I saw a 10X12 level 3+ at 4.25 lbs and price is right within my price range.
Thanks!

PS: nice helmets you have on Hopelite

Dyneema and Honeywell both make similar materials. I personally dont have a preferrence between the two, but if you are comparing them to other materials currently available my short answer is yes, they are the best. Some threats require a bit more (ceramic) but in the end PE (Dyneema / HW) are always used as a backer in high end composite armors.

I appreciate the compliments on the helmets. We get those through Armor Source and they are, in my opinion, the best helmets available on the market. Made in the USA with high grade PE. I have tried to price them as low as anyone else in an effort to provide high end helmets to US citizens, police and military. We dont even mark up the price of accessories.

[lymanbishop]

Very interesting.
If you have time for more Q&A
Can you rate the top three Ceramic Plate makers, one being the best?
Can you rate the top three Steel Plate makers, one being the best?

These days most companies, even the big ones, buy their plates from third party manufacturers such as Hesco Armor, LTC, and a few others. Your best bet is to find a reputable distributor that has the knowledge to go into detail and help you find the right set up for you. I personally prefer Hesco Armor which is why I distribute for them. Look around and make some calls. There are a number of distributors that sell high end products to law abiding US Citizens.

[texancarbine73]

Dyneema and Honeywell both make similar materials. I personally dont have a preferrence between the two, but if you are comparing them to other materials currently available my short answer is yes, they are the best. Some threats require a bit more (ceramic) but in the end PE (Dyneema / HW) are always used as a backer in high end composite armors.

I appreciate the compliments on the helmets. We get those through Armor Source and they are, in my opinion, the best helmets available on the market. Made in the USA with high grade PE. I have tried to price them as low as anyone else in an effort to provide high end helmets to US citizens, police and military. We dont even mark up the price of accessories.
Thanks!! It's awesome to have someone with your knowledge here!!
Cheers