View Full Version : 500 yard group - how am I doing? update post #46 - 0.5 MOA at 560 yards.
Eurodriver
11-20-15, 15:32
I shot this group yesterday at 500 yards. Wind was gusting to around 5mph at 175* - almost negligible. Five rounds, 4.350" center to center. POA was right in the middle of that white outline in the head".
Ammo was BHA Match Brass trimmed to 2.005"
Wolf LR Primer
43.0gr IMR4064
175gr SMK
2.820" OAL
Rifle is a custom built, blueprinted action Krieger 20" in .308
AAC 51T MB and 762SD suppressor
Vortex 6-24 FFP
bedded HS Precision stock
Shot off a Harris Bipod
Timney trigger
Given that this load is my best shooter by far, I'm just curious where do I fall in the "decent, good, great" spectrum.
I'm trying to gauge my skill level and the rifle's ability, but it's difficult without being around a wide array of shooters. It seems there are really only two types of guys at my range.
The loud obnoxious types shooting 2 MOA at 100 yards
The quiet skilled types shooting spraypaint cans at 1000 yards.
I seem to be somewhere in the middle, but I am unsure where.
Looks good.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
waveslayer
11-20-15, 16:20
still a sub MOA grouping. what were you hoping for, out of curiosity.
the wind will kill you every time.
what's your SD? could be why you have vertical stringing
Auto-X Fil
11-20-15, 16:26
1MOA or better at 500 takes a pretty good gun, and consistent shooting. You're definitely shooting very well. Honestly, you're shooting plenty well enough for almost anything - play in the wind and in other positions now!
Eurodriver
11-20-15, 16:58
Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure what I was hoping for. I suppose 1 MOA would be the max of what would make me feel good, so I do, but I what I want is a group like those first 4.
I do not have a chrono so I don't know what my SDs are which makes the vertical stringing a total crap shoot.
I guess this thread can be summarized into two questions:
Is the posted group unacceptable for my ammo/gun? From the feedback so far, I will say no.
With a great load and a great shooter, what kind of groups would my gun be capable of?
waveslayer
11-20-15, 17:18
I would venture to say shrink it down by 2 inches or so. get a chrono. and do some precision reloading
My idea is to continue shooting this load to determine if this performance is repeatable. Already Eurodriver is practicing precision reloading and probably is cranking out his ammo with off the shelf equipment. What say you, jarhead friend, what tools are you using. Lee Loader? Lyman Tong Tool? Stuff from Midway? A hand-me-down press?
Sub MOA at 500 yards is good shooting. Could you tighten that up? Sure. But that is more than acceptable for shooting off a bipod. Are you using a rear bag?
Your horizontal grouping looks to be about half of your vertical grouping. That one low shot could be because of a higher SD than you want or maybe you just broke that shot a little lower than the others. I wouldn't be surprised if that loading shoots tighter groups than that.
Edit: Badass rifle by the way.
I would suggest, in addition to the above ideas, that you try a different target. Something with a more refined target to aim at. Once you are satisfied that you know what the rifle can do, switch back to you favorite type of target.
Also, gun looks great, and sub MOA at 500 is nothing to sneeze at.
Failure2Stop
11-21-15, 08:21
That's solid bro.
For pure precision work, a good front rest and camel toe will prevent bipod jump.
Definitely need a chrono. The magnetospeed has proven to be very good for me.
Nightstalker865
11-21-15, 09:17
I will second the suggestion of using a different target with a smaller more refined aiming point.
For what your working with, you are doing an excellent job.
The Chronograph that has been mentioned numerous times would be my second suggestion. Getting that SD between loads as small as possible will take another variable away.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If that barrel is like the other Kriegers I have shot its a 1/2moa or less capable barrel.
Work on that load i.e. get a chrono to see what its doing. At 100 yards crazy ES and SD numbers dont necessarily matter as its easy to get a good group at 100, but have shit numbers. I just went through this with a new gun and 6.5 creedmoor load. Did OCW, thought "damn thats the ticket", ran the load over a chrono and it was shit(20+ SD and I think ~40+ ES). Worked +- .5g in .1g increments around where I thought my node was, shot 5 of each across the chrono and chose the middle of a "flat spot" so to speak. Had 3 loads with single digit SD's, grabbed the middle so I have .1g tolerance on each side. If your numbers are crazy it will show itself at distance. Your load may be a 1/2 moa load at 100 yards, but stretch it out to 500 and you see what an "inconsistent" load it is from an ES and SD stand point.
I also suggest as others to shoot at a target with a defined aiming point so you KNOW you are holding the same spot every time.
wilson1911
11-21-15, 10:41
Magnetospeed is the cats ass when is comes to chrono's, unless you can afford an Oehler.
What method did you use on working up your load ? Ladder or OCW ?
Have you confirmed that you are in a node ? It really looks like you are close to a node. I would recommend adjusting seating depth. How far off the lands are you ? Also, shoot some groups without the can on.
Once you are in a node, your shots will be horizontally strung, not vertical. Then adjusting your seating depth will move them closer together. SMK's usually like -.010-.020 off the lands. I think your shooting is good, your load just needs a small amount of adjustment.
If you are wanting better groups, do an ocw test, then adjust seating depth, then chrono. Turning the necks will also help if you desire to go that far. I would load .2 graduations of powder increments. I load 6 rounds of each. This gives me 2 tests. If I find that I am in a node, I can repeat that powder charge for conformation. Then I load up .1 on either side of what I shot. Lastly, moving the seating depth in .005 at a time. Still load 6 rounds of -20 -15 -10 off lands. I always chrono last, it does not matter what speed they are if you are not in a node.
Nice dial calipers btw.
Eurodriver
11-21-15, 14:01
Thanks for all the great replies.
I will write more later, but I am headed to the range before it gets dark. I'm bringing a few of the same load and loaded up more rounds in tenth of a grain increments around the 43.0 mark. Same brass, same trim length, same primer, etc.
I did notice something that I had not ever considered until now. I am using a $20 electronic scale that is absolutely garbage. It fluctuates all the time, has dead spots, and has very little consistency. I usually weigh my loads twice. I get it "right" in the scale, pour it into the case, and then re-set the scale tare and pour the charge back out of the case and verify. Problems with this scale would definitely contribute to vertical inconsistencies, correct? I need a good scale and I'll look into the magnetospeed. Thanks guys
wilson1911
11-21-15, 14:39
Yes, that's your problem. There are 3 scales that will work. I use a chargemaster, simply because I refuse to do it by hand. I find it to be close enough for my needs. you will not be able to work up any kind of good load without proper weights. My creed shoots 42.2gr of powder. At 42.0 & 42.5 I am completely out of the node.
Sartorius- get this one if your ocd about things/F class/neck turning etc
gempro- has pretty good reviews.
chargemaster- it throws within .1 like it states.
This is what you want to see when doing to ocw test. Guess which one is almost there perfect.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/jeep4tw/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-10/F7915700-3252-4377-8C0A-02381E7B163A.jpg
changed eating depth
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc171/jeep4tw/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-10/455C487A-0E0D-4530-8D37-15C610CF177E.jpg
eurodriver, your group size is decent. but, for that target, what's impressive is the group center, since you probably fired 5 rounds with no feedback (i.e. you couldn't see where you hit and make an adjustment.)
also, measuring yourself vs other shooters is fine, competition is great and all. but measuring yourself against a practical goal is way more important imho. so, if your practical goal is headshots with a 308win, then i'd say you're around the practical limit of the cartridge, and should start focusing on turning marksmanship into a capability. i.e. hitting at unknown distance and in less favorable wind conditions, and moving targets and getting rounds off faster.
overally like you said, you're probably in the middle. i think you've had some good suggestions from posters above about how to tighten it up. without knowing anything about you other than as posted in this thread, I'll throw out some suggestions which may be way off of course
gun setup
1. that stock sucks. it MIGHT be considered ergonomic for slinging lead at deer, but it is not appropriate for precision shooting. it's highly likely your shoulder, spine, head, and trigger finger are sub-optimally positioned. more specifically, you're probably not really able to rest and instead are having to use a lot of muscle. my guess is that if you try the old natural point of aim test (closing your eyes for 20 seconds and then opening them) you'll see some correlation to your group size.
if you have an opportunity to try some other people's stocks at your range, do so. you will probably be amazed at how much easier it will be to shoot well once you get one that's properly adjusted to you.
2. i don't want to get into a big fanboy debate, but my guess is a brake-attached AAC isn't helping you either. I'd definitely do some A-B testing every few hundred rounds to see if the groups change after removing it. (i'm a huge fan of shooting suppressed though)
range
3. what are you shooting from? prone? bench? on concrete? wood? dirt? depending on the answer, you may see better results making some changes.
4. we don't get to choose our practical targets usually. they are what they are. but for shooting groups and learning, that's a pretty poor one. you need something with a super precise aiming point. if you don't have that, sometimes you can improvise. e.g. when i'm shooting a 12" plate or something, instead of just aiming for the 'center', i use the hashes on the reticle and hold them on the edges of the plate, which is much more repeatable and precise sight picture. also since i don't see a bubble level on your rifle, try to find a target something like a diamond that will let you put the tips on your vertical and horizontal crosshairs, which will let you make certain you are keeping the same cant for all shots in the group. don't be afraid to make your own target. e.g. a cardboard ipsc with a 3" black triangle on the extreme top/bottom/left/right drawn in sharpie or with some spraypaint and a template. that will give you a much more consistent hold point.
ammo
5. nothing wrong with what you listed (though if you have some varget or R15 laying around, give that a try instead), but my guess is your vertical spread is partially ammo related, but probably not just velocity. you'll want to invest in a magnetospeed, but also a concentricity or runout gauge, and figure out how to keep consistent neck tension.
i don't suppose you have any way to know, but i'm curious if the low shot was the first round.
with no feedback (i.e. you couldn't see where you hit and make an adjustment.)
2. i don't want to get into a big fanboy debate, but my guess is a brake-attached AAC isn't helping you either. I'd definitely do some A-B testing every few hundred rounds to see if the groups change after removing it. (i'm a huge fan of shooting suppressed though)
I will make comments on these two parts.
1. I dont understand the "make corrections" part. What corrections would he make? The answer should be NONE. BUT with no real POA on his target its hard to be consistent. The name of the game is consistency IMO. NOW if he had a grid target with cross hair bull and he was consistently hitting 3" high, yea, dial or hold different because the dope is off, but beyond that, why would he make a "correction" between each shot and what would said correction entail? I dont change SHIT when shooting groups. I dont change my dials, I dont change my position, I dont change my POA, etc... I shoot my group and see whats up and THEN I see if I need to change anything.
2. Ive shot sub 1/2 groups with my SDN6 on a 51t brakeout(half brake half flash hider). It shifts 4" down and 1" left at 100 consistently on my gun. Every time I put it on, it shifts the same. Doesnt shift while shooting, its consistent. People give the 51t AAC cans(and a lot of QD cans in general) a bad rap as far as precision goes, but in my experience with my can(and I have one of the "worst" offenders supposedly) its just not true to the extent people claim. Would I put my can up against a thunderbeast in a precision shoot, nah, probably not, but putting in sub half MOA groups is good enough for me.
, but beyond that, why would he make a "correction" between each shot and what would said correction entail? I dont change SHIT when shooting groups.
.
Well sometimes I don't either but usually I have to correct for changing wind between shots. And when people are shooting at distance on a head target they may have a group and measure it when they're done but they're usually shooting for hits. So if you see your first one off the right shoulder you make the correction and get 4 hits and a miss instead of 5 misses regardless of what it does to your group size.
It's nothing to get emotional about. I just said I thought it was impressive because he shot that well without being able to clean it up since I doubt he could have resolved the bullet holes from 500
It is OK shooting with the equipment you have. You probably could have been able to group much smaller with a 6mm Norma BR. like mine does. My best group at 1,000 yards was 3.25 inches for five shots watching the wind and I did not win the match. Here is the first time I tested my new custom turret at 400 yards. The 1,000 yard target was the very first time I ever shot at 1,000 yards. Didn't watch the wind and the scores and group sizes are in the lower right of target.
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=564977&highlight=testing+custom+turret
wilson1911
11-25-15, 01:03
Comparing a 6br to a 308 is not even fair.
Given the fact that his gun is a worked factory rem action, not that good of a stock for precision, not a good target to shoot at range, and is on a basic level of reloading. I think he did a great job for the equipment and knowledge he has. Most people would be 12 inches or lucky to hit the paper at 500 yards.
Given what he asked about his groupings and not having anyone to help him refine what he has shows he has good potential and is wanting to learn more.
If you want a long range load don't build a load at 100yds build a load at 300+yds. Seen more than one rifle that would shoot better at 300+ than 100.
If you want a long range load don't build a load at 100yds build a load at 300+yds. Seen more than one rifle that would shoot better at 300+ than 100.
Build a load with a chrono and it wont matter what range you shoot them at, shoot em into the ground at 5 feet because all you are looking at is the load consistency. If you have a load that goes across the chrono with single digit SD's and low ES's(which will come with the single digit SD) its probably going to be a pretty accurate and consistent round at any distance.
I just got done building a 6.5C gas gun and did an OCW. Thought I had a node, but when I shot that powder charge over the chrono it was like 20+ SD and 50+ ES. Kept working higher in .1g increments and I got into a .4g wide node of single digit SD's and mid teen's ES's.
Build a load with a chrono and it wont matter what range you shoot them at, shoot em into the ground at 5 feet because all you are looking at is the load consistency. If you have a load that goes across the chrono with single digit SD's and low ES's(which will come with the single digit SD) its probably going to be a pretty accurate and consistent round at any distance.
I just got done building a 6.5C gas gun and did an OCW. Thought I had a node, but when I shot that powder charge over the chrono it was like 20+ SD and 50+ ES. Kept working higher in .1g increments and I got into a .4g wide node of single digit SD's and mid teen's ES's.
I've never used a chrono, money was always tight and it was reloading supplies or "stuff" I generally always go with reloading components. Had a 300wsm that liked 185gr Berger vlds over n560, it would barely hold moa at 100yds but their were three times I put three rounds into a hole the size of a 45acp casing at 300yds. Granted when I did the math on using my dope on those rounds I think they were pushing 3150fps.
TacMedic556
11-26-15, 17:04
You are doing awesome! As stated by others above, you are sub moa. At 500 I would be happy with a 5" group all day long. Listen to the part of this video where they address the 1 moa group.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psk65mhcxrs
Look into the optimal charge weight method by Dan Newberry ... and shoot the ladder.
Given that this load is my best shooter by far, I'm just curious where do I fall in the "decent, good, great" spectrum.
I'm impressed. I'm not that good, but my 2¢: I'd call this "good" or even "great" if you can do it consistently.
Cheap upgrades:
1. Buy a chrono and use it. How much have you spent on the rifle and ammo and components?! Spend $100.- on a decent chrono.
2. Bipods are convenient, but sandbags are more stable.
3. Use a better target... The precision guys at SH are shooting at 'multiples,' so that each shot goes at a different target. See the "quarters" target that Molon has posted here, somewhere.
andersenvincent7
12-03-15, 20:00
If you are shooting 1/2 MOA you are doing damn fine.
Look into the optimal charge weight method by Dan Newberry ... and shoot the ladder.
This is great advice
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It is very hard to determine what if anything you need to do to shrink that down with only 5 shots.
I'll be straight up, for 98% of the population that is excellent shooting at 500 yards. If you are looking to get into shooting things like the PRS, you will probably want to shrink it down a bit. Reason being, once you get past 650-800 yards with a .308 at your elevation, your enviromentals and physics will begin to take their toll on your shots. I know you are a big boy and can handle criticism, so I'll come out and say it; if that were my rifle I would like it a little bit tighter.
I would not be surprised if that one little guy off by himself was just a bit of a trigger snatch. If it had been in with the other shots, I would say you are exactly where you want to be.
This is about average of what I do with my AI and 175 gr FGMM at 100 yards, prone with Atlas and rear bag.
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/hootiewho6933/611F9325-1CC7-401E-BA6A-DCDB1D10C443_zps3eqobxhl.jpg
This is the same rifle with the 260 Rem barrel installed shooting hand loads at 1k at a FTR type match in GA. Now this is the tightest group I have shot at that distance to date, and it was during sight in, before the match started shooting prone with Atlas and TAB gear rear bag, hence only 3 shots. FWIW, I loaded this ammo using a Frankfort Arsenal pocket scale. I do have an Oehler 35P and the SD on this load using 140 gr AMAX and H4350 is around 6 FPS.
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/hootiewho6933/IMG_1568_zpsitjfplno.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/hootiewho6933/IMG_1558_zpshahcjomh.jpg
If I am starting with a new rifle, I like to see what it will do with and without whatever muzzle device I might be running. I have had brakes cause me grief before, so that is something I always check first. I also like to really slow down when evaluating a load. I would probably dry fire 3-5 times prior to each of those shots. Build up my position and settle in, then dry fire a few times, load a round, break shot, follow through, then break position if I was tired and start over. I know ammo is costly, but I also suggest at least a 10 shot group when doing an eval to really get an idea of what the load is doing.
I would also suggest picking up some known quality loaded ammo to evaluate along side my reloads. Something like the Applied Ballistics .308, FGMM, or Copper Creek.
A chrono is nice to have, but not necessary. If you are just starting out or a year or so into it, I dare say spend that $300+ on ammo or training. You are down near one of the best precision rifle instructors in the US, Derrick Bartlett. I would spend that $ with him and worry about a chrono later. Honestly, one of the things that helped my reloading the most was watching the old 80's era training video of David Tubb doing precision reloading. In that training video he emphasizes several times that charge weight differences are not near as detrimental to grouping as other factors. He demonstrates this at the range. I am not saying you can be all over the place with your measurements and expect laser beam precision; but I did load that ammo in the 1000 yard picture above when I did not own a chrono, and FWIW I placed 1st that day with my scored shots.
If you do decide you would like to buy a chrono, I would strongly suggest either getting a magnetospeed, Oehler, or maybe one of the Labradar units if they shake out to work well. If MS had the mounting options available when I bought my Oehler 35P, I would have just bought the MS. That said, the 35P is the gold standard. The best place to catch a deal on any of those is of course Snipershide's EE. Lots of guys moving from Oehlers to MS or Labradar, so at times you can find a deal on an Oehler.
I would also suggest picking up some Applied Ballistics loaded ammo with the Berger 185 gr Jugg bullet. I love that bullet in my .308. One of the best bullets you can get for the .308 IMHO. Lots of guys on the hide have had great luck with that bullet and PP 2000MR powder, getting insanely high velocities without the normal pressure signs you would see with other powders.
Keep us posted on your progress!
It is very hard to determine what if anything you need to do to shrink that down with only 5 shots.
I'll be straight up, for 98% of the population that is excellent shooting at 500 yards. If you are looking to get into shooting things like the PRS, you will probably want to shrink it down a bit. Reason being, once you get past 650-800 yards with a .308 at your elevation, your enviromentals and physics will begin to take their toll on your shots. I know you are a big boy and can handle criticism, so I'll come out and say it; if that were my rifle I would like it a little bit tighter.
I would not be surprised if that one little guy off by himself was just a bit of a trigger snatch. If it had been in with the other shots, I would say you are exactly where you want to be.
This is about average of what I do with my AI and 175 gr FGMM at 100 yards, prone with Atlas and rear bag.
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/hootiewho6933/611F9325-1CC7-401E-BA6A-DCDB1D10C443_zps3eqobxhl.jpg
This is the same rifle with the 260 Rem barrel installed shooting hand loads at 1k at a FTR type match in GA. Now this is the tightest group I have shot at that distance to date, and it was during sight in, before the match started shooting prone with Atlas and TAB gear rear bag, hence only 3 shots. FWIW, I loaded this ammo using a Frankfort Arsenal pocket scale. I do have an Oehler 35P and the SD on this load using 140 gr AMAX and H4350 is around 6 FPS.
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/hootiewho6933/IMG_1568_zpsitjfplno.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/hootiewho6933/IMG_1558_zpshahcjomh.jpg
If I am starting with a new rifle, I like to see what it will do with and without whatever muzzle device I might be running. I have had brakes cause me grief before, so that is something I always check first. I also like to really slow down when evaluating a load. I would probably dry fire 3-5 times prior to each of those shots. Build up my position and settle in, then dry fire a few times, load a round, break shot, follow through, then break position if I was tired and start over. I know ammo is costly, but I also suggest at least a 10 shot group when doing an eval to really get an idea of what the load is doing.
I would also suggest picking up some known quality loaded ammo to evaluate along side my reloads. Something like the Applied Ballistics .308, FGMM, or Copper Creek.
A chrono is nice to have, but not necessary. If you are just starting out or a year or so into it, I dare say spend that $300+ on ammo or training. You are down near one of the best precision rifle instructors in the US, Derrick Bartlett. I would spend that $ with him and worry about a chrono later. Honestly, one of the things that helped my reloading the most was watching the old 80's era training video of David Tubb doing precision reloading. In that training video he emphasizes several times that charge weight differences are not near as detrimental to grouping as other factors. He demonstrates this at the range. I am not saying you can be all over the place with your measurements and expect laser beam precision; but I did load that ammo in the 1000 yard picture above when I did not own a chrono, and FWIW I placed 1st that day with my scored shots.
If you do decide you would like to buy a chrono, I would strongly suggest either getting a magnetospeed, Oehler, or maybe one of the Labradar units if they shake out to work well. If MS had the mounting options available when I bought my Oehler 35P, I would have just bought the MS. That said, the 35P is the gold standard. The best place to catch a deal on any of those is of course Snipershide's EE. Lots of guys moving from Oehlers to MS or Labradar, so at times you can find a deal on an Oehler.
I would also suggest picking up some Applied Ballistics loaded ammo with the Berger 185 gr Jugg bullet. I love that bullet in my .308. One of the best bullets you can get for the .308 IMHO. Lots of guys on the hide have had great luck with that bullet and PP 2000MR powder, getting insanely high velocities without the normal pressure signs you would see with other powders.
Keep us posted on your progress!
That or an off power round (since it was a straight down drop). The rest are clustered pretty tightly. That's why I like to shoot 10 and disregard two of them. It gives a better representation of what the gun and load can do.
I'd also play with a couple of variables on the load. Get your hands on some Lapua brass and see what happens. If you have a large supply of same lot BHA brass, try primer pocket uniforming, flash hole deburring and neck turning (if you aren't already). After processing, weigh your cases and group them by that. Get a concentricity gauge and group loaded ammo by runout. Use the least consistent lots at the closest range and the more uniform stuff at longer ranges.
You're already doing great, but it takes the little details to squeeze the last ounce of performance out of your gear.
So much good info in this thread already. I'll re-emphasize a couple points. I have a friend that while working up loads, he looks at SD and chrono consistency MORE than group size. No human error can play into chrono, but group size always does. Get that green machine charge master or other to improve your reloads. And group size will shrink.
Your group is legit shooting and respectable tactical work.
wilson1911
12-21-15, 14:10
So what has Euro done since posting this thread ? Lots of good info on here for him to learn for precision loading.
Eurodriver
12-21-15, 14:58
So what has Euro done since posting this thread ? Lots of good info on here for him to learn for precision loading.
Discovered Night Vision :cool: bought a chrono and a better scale...
Lots of good info indeed, but other than thanking everyone for their contributions I won't be able to comment on much until I get behind the gun. Maybe next week.
Discovered Night Vision :cool:
oh, NOW we're talkin'
if you are into long range in the dark and anywhere near middle TN, let me know. If you are still shopping, I may be able to help out there a bit too.
Eurodriver
12-22-15, 05:59
Absolutely. I will be going out tonight and shooting from 50-200 yards with my ARs if I have time.
I only have a set of PVS14s and use IR lasers so magnification (and laser size) becomes an issue beyond 200. I'd love to get a good NV scope for this rifle (max range I'd use it at would be 600 yards) but would like to try some out first to see what works and what doesn't. Plus I'll also need a powerful IR illuminator to reach out and light the area up. Mounting all that to a bolt gun would be tricky and so very expensive.
There have been 1 or 2 SIMRADs on the Snipershide EE for a while for around $2700. I have no experience with that unit, but have contacted several users on that board and they all give it a great review image wise. The downside being it is big and has a different zeroing process that other units. That said, $2700 is a lot less than the typical $7000+ you will pay for a Clip on.
I would love to have a PVS-27 myself.
Eurodriver
02-13-16, 10:41
I made it out to the range. An injury has kept me away from too long, but I was able to hobble over and do some shooting.
The good news - my loads vertical dispersion is excellent at 600 yards. I think a combination of re-weighing every single charge and getting a more stable shooting platform (camel toe bag and atlas bipod) all helped.
More good news - I have really found a load this rifle likes. BHA brass, 43.0gr IMR4064 and 175gr SMK loaded to 2.815" is money.
Bad news - it was windy as hell today. Wind was coming in at 10:00 and it was a constant 10mph with gusts up to 25mph. The wind was so bad the target stand was wobbling down range.
I'm glad I've got the vertical spread down but I feel like I wasted a trip. I normally enjoy shooting in challenging conditions but the only reason I Went today was because I wanted to get a really nasty 1/2 MOA group at 600 yards and come on here and brag but mother nature dealt me a harsh one :jester:
I actually had this rifle up for sale on the EE to finance a semi auto .308 build, but I'm taking it down. I just enjoy it way too much.
Looks like you are doing pretty good to me. Keep it up.
wilson1911
02-13-16, 12:01
Euro, did you not buy a chargemaster yet ?
I also think you should turn the case necks and seat your bullets with dry lube.
Eurodriver
02-13-16, 12:08
No charge master yet and no special funky loading practices. I'd like to get into that, but as of right now my procedure is to deprime and clean, neck size, M-Die, prime, weigh the charge carefully, and seat.
Eurodriver
02-13-16, 13:20
What's an m-die?
An expander die. I use it to reduce runout compared to the expander located inside sizing dies
oh, ok. then that is almost exactly what I do, except i run the expander before sizing, and use a full length sizer with bushings
sweet rifle and nice group
Eurodriver
02-20-16, 12:47
I think I'm content. I shot a 5 round group at 560 yards that came out to just a hair under 0.5 MOA (2.4 inches) Wind was variable from 5-15 mph and was changing back and forth from 2:00 to 6:00. It makes me wonder if that "flyer" was due to wind, and if the wind wasn't so bad if I would have had a <2" group. I couldn't shoot to 600 as there was a match going on and had to settle for 560.
There were guys shooting at 5" hangers in a match and when they saw me get back with my target they were impressed. These are guys shooting Night Force equipped custom BR dashers and their praises actually mean something. Hearing them say "Don't enter our matches, you'll win" made me feel pretty good.
Load was:
BHA Brass
43.0gr IMR 4064
2.815" COAL
CCI LR Primer
175gr SMK
To rehash the OP's question - am I doing ok now? How can I get better? I would have like to get all five rounds in that white 4" center bullseye, but the 15mph gusts were kicking my ass. How well do the "best" guys do at this distance? Small groups show the precision of the rifle, but if you miss the target what difference does it make?
wilson1911
02-21-16, 00:07
So what did you end up changing to shoot better ? I can only remember you having probs with charge weights. Or was just shooting at a better target the deciding factor ?
Just goes to show you a trued rem can choot just as good as a custom.
Small groups show the precision of the rifle, but if you miss the target what difference does it make?
This is the part I struggle with, accuracy. I've shot down to .43MOA at 100yards and consistently at .65MOA with my 20" R700, B&C stock and factory trigger. I'm always off the bullseye though. I'm guessing it is inconsistent cheek weld and not reading the wind correctly? I'd like to take a precision rifle class or two to weed out the bad habits I'm sure I have.
Eurodriver
02-23-16, 08:55
So what did you end up changing to shoot better ? I can only remember you having probs with charge weights. Or was just shooting at a better target the deciding factor ?
Just goes to show you a trued rem can choot just as good as a custom.
Actually, not much. I sorted my brass and weighed my charges 2x. That's literally it. This black hills brass is absolutely ridiculous considering it's just run of the mill Win with BHA stamped in it.
I bought some Lapua brass and I am going to upgrade my dies to Redding and Forster. (I currently use a Redding FL sizing die) I entered a 600 yard match next month and my goals are to have fun and not embarass myself.
Also, I just ordered Surgeon DBM and a bolt knob to round the gun out. Really wish I had a Surgeon action.
This is the part I struggle with, accuracy. I've shot down to .43MOA at 100yards and consistently at .65MOA with my 20" R700, B&C stock and factory trigger. I'm always off the bullseye though. I'm guessing it is inconsistent cheek weld and not reading the wind correctly? I'd like to take a precision rifle class or two to weed out the bad habits I'm sure I have.
Not sure at 100 yards, but at 600 you get all sorts of issues. The wind would actually change directions half way down the range, and mirage can move your shot group left, right, up, down - all over the place. It's got to be more of an art than a science because I sure as hell can't put my finger on it but there's a guy with a GAP in .243 at our club that shoots clay pigeons at 800 yards...cold bore. :thank_you2: so it can be done...
.5 moa at any distance is damned good. Congrats on that.
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I entered a 600 yard match next month and my goals are to have fun and not embarass myself.
.
Life goals right there :)
Not sure at 100 yards, but at 600 you get all sorts of issues. The wind would actually change directions half way down the range, and mirage can move your shot group left, right, up, down - all over the place. It's got to be more of an art than a science because I sure as hell can't put my finger on it but there's a guy with a GAP in .243 at our club that shoots clay pigeons at 800 yards...cold bore. :thank_you2: so it can be done...
When I shoot longer distances it doesn't help that the spot where I shoot is surrounded by hills on 2 sides of varying height and is next to a dry lake bed. Depending on the day, the wind seems to swirl in the middle. Makes in tough when I go beyond 600. People always mention my 20" barrel but I refuse to use that as a crutch till at least 800 yards :) I will tame it!
As for brass, I shot decent with Lapua but my best groups of all been since I took some crappy Win brass I had to get annealed. Prior to that the neck tension was shot after a couple of firings.
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