View Full Version : Ranger RA556B / fatal shooting (graphic pics)
My very firstest deer ever, btw...
http://i64.tinypic.com/2urm1j8.jpg
Ammo: Ra556b
Rifle: 16.1" Daniel defense with surefire 556-212
The shot: 25m to deer
The reaction: Deer "hunched/hopped", and then tore off running ultimately 70m down a hill and expired before I reached it (2-3min?) Its flight was erratic, and it hit several trees heading down the slope.
Deer was a doe, approximately 100-120# in weight.
Heart was hit, as we're both lungs. Heart was ruptured in several places from hydrostatic shock, in addition to the physical bullet path.
***What we can also learn from this, is that the proposition that a hydrostatic shock-wave within the CNS damaging the small vessels in the brain, leading to rapid incapacitation, as described by Michael Courtney, MD, is patently false. The heart was hit directly with a 5.56 round with enough force to cause structural failure beyond the path of the bullet, and the deer still made purposeful, directed movement, for 70 yards.
Entrance:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2wqv5t2.jpg
Exit:
http://i67.tinypic.com/ayttoo.jpg
Ground where she was hit (heart/lung tissue present):
http://i63.tinypic.com/28ta52.jpg
Resolution: http://i65.tinypic.com/bi5wma.jpg
40# of meat total, gave 5# or so to friends who invited me for the thanksgiving hunt I took her on! 20+ hours in a stand over the week-end paid off!
Another successful, and delicious, venison interdiction. Congrats!
Heart was hit, as we're both lungs. Heart was ruptured in several places from hydrostatic shock, in addition to the physical bullet path.
***What we can also learn from this, is that the proposition that a hydrostatic shock-wave within the CNS damaging the small vessels in the brain, leading to rapid incapacitation, as described by Michael Courtney, MD, is patently false. The heart was hit directly with a 5.56 round with enough force to cause structural failure beyond the path of the bullet, and the deer still made purposeful, directed movement, for 70 yards.
Strictly speaking, the heart is part of the circulatory system, not CNS. Even if you completely destroy the heart, there is enough residual blood and oxygen present in the system to allow action until exsanguination overwhelms the other body systems (anecdotally, the Miami FBI shootout comes to mind).
The CNS is also a hearty (no pun intended) system. Unless the spinal cord is severed relatively high up, or base structure of the brain destroyed, an astonishing amount of action can continue to occur (Navy S.E.A.L. Matthew"Axe" Axelson was wounded in both the head and chest according to Marcus Luttrell).
Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy
Another successful, and delicious, venison interdiction. Congrats!
Strictly speaking, the heart is part of the circulatory system, not CNS. Even if you completely destroy the heart, there is enough residual blood and oxygen present in the system to allow action until exsanguination overwhelms the other body systems (anecdotally, the Miami FBI shootout comes to mind).
The CNS is also a hearty (no pun intended) system. Unless the spinal cord is severed relatively high up, or base structure of the brain destroyed, an astonishing amount of action can continue to occur (Navy S.E.A.L. Matthew"Axe" Axelson was wounded in both the head and chest according to Marcus Luttrell).
Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy
Familiarity with Dr Michael Courtney and his theories is required to understand how my experience discredits them.
In short, he hypothesizes that hydrostatic shock to the cardiopulmonary system results in that shock being transferred hydraulically to the brain via the large vessels, and through the small vessels in the brain, resulting in a ton of tiny aneurysms.
wilson1911
11-30-15, 16:22
grats on your first one.
I prefer to hit the neck, that way its either hit or miss. They always drop like a rock. You will usually have your target go off just a bit after heart shot.
Ah, that guy. His nonsense was before my time here on the board, but I remember others around the gun-o-sphere tearing him up and clinking beer glasses afterward.
My mistake. I though you were being (somewhat) serious.
See what happens when I'm stuck in traffic?
Ah, that guy. His nonsense was before my time here on the board, but I remember others around the gun-o-sphere tearing him up and clinking beer glasses afterward.
My mistake. I though you were being (somewhat) serious.
See what happens when I'm stuck in traffic?
I was always curious about his theories because of neurological changes I've noted in patients after bypass surgery. A bypass machine does not use pulsetile pressure but rather constant pressure, and it's been hypothesized that this can and does effect the brain. I have noted, like I said, changes in patients afterwards, so I was curious about his theories.
Gunnar da Wolf
11-30-15, 20:01
Didn't the theory that a bullet hit to the heart / circulatory system could damage the brain come with the proviso that the heart valves had to be open to allow the wave/pulse/spike to pass thru? Sounded to me like a built in excuse as to why heart hits only cause the victim to be DRT some of the time. FWIW I demolished a big buck's shoulder and heart two years ago with a .375 H&H 300gr softpoint at 70ish yards and he ran about 60 yards before expiring. I'd say that much energy could overcome a heart valve if that theory held any water. It sounds to me like your doe acted like almost all the deer I've shot or helped to follow up on after a good heart shot.
Congratulations on taking your first deer! Did the bullet pass thru or was it recovered? Our SWAT guys are carrying that load and have wondered how it would do on deer but no one has opted to leave the rarely used deer blaster at home and take their work gun hunting.
Didn't the theory that a bullet hit to the heart / circulatory system could damage the brain come with the proviso that the heart valves had to be open to allow the wave/pulse/spike to pass thru? Sounded to me like a built in excuse as to why heart hits only cause the victim to be DRT some of the time. FWIW I demolished a big buck's shoulder and heart two years ago with a .375 H&H 300gr softpoint at 70ish yards and he ran about 60 yards before expiring. I'd say that much energy could overcome a heart valve if that theory held any water. It sounds to me like your doe acted like almost all the deer I've shot or helped to follow up on after a good heart shot.
Congratulations on taking your first deer! Did the bullet pass thru or was it recovered? Our SWAT guys are carrying that load and have wondered how it would do on deer but no one has opted to leave the rarely used deer blaster at home and take their work gun hunting.
Thanks! As pictured, the bullet punched the opposing rib/hide, left about a .45 caliber hole, and kept on for parts unknown.
I feel certain that mitral valve prolapse and rupture of said structure occurred, although I did not dissect the heart to confirm or deny that.
I have had to put a lot of deer down over the years after they were hit by a car, truck or minivan. The fastest way to put them down was to take the wind out of their sails. A cross body shot through both lungs with a 12 gauge slug would normally stop them right away. Anytime I tried a headshot, I would have to track them for some distance before shooting them in the lungs.
For that kind of hydraulic pressure transfer to take place, the system has to be closed. When someone is choked, blood cannot enter the brain, and the blood that is in the venous side of the circuit does cause tiny hemorrhages (called petechia). Even these are in the smaller vessels in the eyes and capillaries of the skin. The arterial system of the brain is very robust, and can survive many times normal body pressure (people that do leg press/squats while holding their breath have systolic blood pressures over 300mmHg routinely). An open system (like a GSW to the heart/lungs) allows that pressure to dissipate. I've treated people that were crushed by cars (many times the hydraulic pressure of a GSW, and an injury that creates a closed system), and no one's head exploded at the scene.
Thanks! As pictured, the bullet punched the opposing rib/hide, left about a .45 caliber hole, and kept on for parts unknown.
I feel certain that mitral valve prolapse and rupture of said structure occurred, although I did not dissect the heart to confirm or deny that.
Out of curiosity, why do you suspect MVP? Potential chordae rupture due to path of bullet?
The sling appears to have come in handy.
Gunnar da Wolf
12-01-15, 21:14
Thanks! As pictured, the bullet punched the opposing rib/hide, left about a .45 caliber hole, and kept on for parts unknown.
I feel certain that mitral valve prolapse and rupture of said structure occurred, although I did not dissect the heart to confirm or deny that.
LOL! Guess I reverted to Playboy magazine mode and read your story without looking at the photographs. That is a decent exit wound for a .224" projectile.
Out of curiosity, why do you suspect MVP? Potential chordae rupture due to path of bullet?
I have no reason to suspect that other than that the chordae are likely not as durable as the ventricle wall, which showed striations like a cracked car tire from dry-rot. I did not do much looking at the heart to be honest, but I just can't see the ligaments of the MV being stronger than the ventricle wall. The event violent enough to do that would have forced blood into the great vessels, if anything would, IMO.
However, I did not dissect the heart, and it had a huge hole in it, so nothing the deer did would likely have been different, had it done so.
LOL! Guess I reverted to Playboy magazine mode and read your story without looking at the photographs. That is a decent exit wound for a .224" projectile.
Yeah? Everyone was curious why it wasn't larger. I mean, it DID dead-center a rib on the way in, and out, and punch the hide. I suppose that's pretty good. Also, based on the bloodshot meat around the entrance and exit, it did pretty good in the "violent expansion" department.
(some of the bloodshot meat has been cut away already)
Entrance:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2mjypw.jpg
Exit:
http://i64.tinypic.com/sgri2t.jpg
The sling appears to have come in handy.
Yes. I did typically QD it off when in the stand, though, so as to avoid it getting caught or the buckle hitting the stand when I moved, if I saw a deer.
FlyingHunter
12-02-15, 19:28
Congratulations! Well done.
Point of note as someone who's taken many, many deer as well as other large game including Alaska. After the shot, if you cannot actually see them expired on the ground, sit tight where you are for 20, even better - 30 minutes. Many animals will run a short distance and if they do not feel pursued, will bed down. Your tracking distance and recovery success will markedly improve allowing them adequate time to expire. Bowhunters do this routinely, gun hunters not as much but its equally important. Wounded animals, feeling pursued, can run extraordinary distances even with rock solid placement into the vitals.
Again, welcome to the tribe and congratulations on your deer.
Nice job!
Typically, with many medium to large sized animals there is enough oxygen in the blood to keep things going for several seconds. Even with the heart and both lungs destroyed, the deer had enough oxygen to get that 70 yards and then it likely collapsed and expired a second or two later.
I shot a doe with a 30-06 at 200 yards that managed to run 50 yards and jump a fence before collapsing. Like your's, both the lungs and heart were destroyed.
The only guaranteed way to stop a deer right where they are is a CNS shot. No impulses from the brain to the muscles = no movement. However, given the small size of the brain and spine relative to the chest, it's not a wise shot to make.
Congratulations! Well done.
Point of note as someone who's taken many, many deer as well as other large game including Alaska. After the shot, if you cannot actually see them expired on the ground, sit tight where you are for 20, even better - 30 minutes. Many animals will run a short distance and if they do not feel pursued, will bed down. Your tracking distance and recovery success will markedly improve allowing them adequate time to expire. Bowhunters do this routinely, gun hunters not as much but its equally important. Wounded animals, feeling pursued, can run extraordinary distances even with rock solid placement into the vitals.
Again, welcome to the tribe and congratulations on your deer.
Thanks! Even knowing that both lungs were punched and the heart or great vessels were compromised, was it still a bad decision to walk after it, directly? I figured it was down for the count, and was right. Did I just get lucky and was it a bad call?
Thanks! Even knowing that both lungs were punched and the heart or great vessels were compromised, was it still a bad decision to walk after it, directly? I figured it was down for the count, and was right. Did I just get lucky and was it a bad call?
I would have watched it to make sure where it went. Climbing out of your stand would mean taking your eyes off of it and possibly not seeing where it went.
However, once it's out of sight, I would go after it.
I would have watched it to make sure where it went. Climbing out of your stand would mean taking your eyes off of it and possibly not seeing where it went.
However, once it's out of sight, I would go after it.
It ran down the side of a ridge. I tracked it visually until then.
.
Point of note as someone who's taken many, many deer as well as other large game including Alaska. After the shot, if you cannot actually see them expired on the ground, sit tight where you are for 20, even better - 30 minutes. Many animals will run a short distance and if they do not feel pursued, will bed down. Your tracking distance and recovery success will markedly improve allowing them adequate time to expire. Bowhunters do this routinely, gun hunters not as much but its equally important. Wounded animals, feeling pursued, can run extraordinary distances even with rock solid placement into the vitals.
Good advice, but will add an anecdote as a proviso... I shot a young buck week before last. (sidebar- rifle was a 300BLK) Animal ran to point about 50-60 yards from me and collapsed, Saw it go down but view obscured. Shot placement was at or about heart, so had to consider lung shot. Was waiting to give it time to bleed out. Saw another deer in distance and ended up waiting an hour before moving.
Cutting to chase... Coyote(s) got to my deer first, opened up gut and had started eating. Saw a coyote as I walked to deer, snapped a shot off but missed.
So if coyotes around, don't wait too long.
It ran down the side of a ridge. I tracked it visually until then.
Then you did exactly as I would have done.
A solid hit to the vitals should result in a fairly quick death and following once it's out of sight shouldn't be a problem.
FlyingHunter
12-03-15, 18:10
Thanks! Even knowing that both lungs were punched and the heart or great vessels were compromised, was it still a bad decision to walk after it, directly? I figured it was down for the count, and was right. Did I just get lucky and was it a bad call?
I believe sportsman desire the most humane outcome when hunting. Pursuing game too early can lead to lost game. Well placed shots are lethal and quick, however not every shot is as rock solid as the hunter envisions. Experienced hunters can tell tales of unbelievable distances traversed by game feeling pursued even with a lethal placement. The risk reward isn't there. The reward of immediate tracking could be along and evaporating blood trail. The reward of allowing game to bed closely and expire quickly is meat in the freezer and on the property you have access permission to hunt. Good hunting my friend.
I HIGHLY recommend this reading. I've been hunting for 30 years and I become so much more effective after reading Nathan's analysis, regardless of caliber:
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Game+Killing+Fundamentals.html
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I'd wait 20mins unless it's a spine shot, in which case you can take a blade to them to end it sooner. If it's a possible bad shot, I'd wait longer. As said they usually bed down close and die unless pushed. Losing a deer is awful, and disappointing way to learn. I've done it.
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