View Full Version : MAC's VP9 test.
http://gun-videos.net/2015/12/03/hk-vp9-torture-test/
I'll admit I was surprised by the results. Kind of shocked actually.
In this video, the Military Arms Channel is at the range putting the HK VP9 through the torture test. The 9mm ammunition used is from ZQI.
The VP9 holster shown is from Contact! Concealment. The gun belt is from Daltech Force.
From my perspective, the failures shown in the video are result of 2 actual weaknesses to the VP9 design. Weak slide lockup when cocked and trigger bar / disconnector design
The one thing that has always bothered me about my VP9 is that when the gun is cocked, the gun has a very weak lockup. The firearm slide can be move 1/8" in and out of battery with very minimal force when cocked. When I say minimal, I mean light touch with pinky finger can move the slide out of battery. There is not enough spring tension in the design to have a strong lockup. This means that anything that could restrict slide movement or grit in the slide rails could almost guarantee the gun to not lock completely into battery.
If dirt and grime gets into the trigger bar assembly, it can keep the bar down, thus preventing it from resetting properly. This is what MAC was sort of describing in the video when he took the gun apart.
These 2 things makes the gun more susceptible to "wet grime" more than other gun designs. I still carry my VP9 and will keep it, but Glock is still my goto gun.
Not an impressive performance at all.
How many VP9 shooters that are shooting them a lot in different conditions are experiencing issues? Are they being widely reported or is this one of a few cases?
How many VP9 shooters that are shooting them a lot in different conditions are experiencing issues? Are they being widely reported or is this one of a few cases?
I've never had an issue in normal shooting, but I've never done those types of tests either.
Kind of troubling to say the least.
donlapalma
12-03-15, 15:55
I watched this last night and expected a far better performance. I realize the "tests" are extreme in nature and not realistic, but it still shines a different light on the gun.
Interesting indeed. Realistically I don't forsee that kind of abuse ever happening to mine but the mag release was somthing I hadn't concidered.I'd like to see how other guns faired in the sandy mud.
Off topic though, does anyone know what kind of jacket he's wearing? For how cold it looks like it is outside he doesn't seem to be cold in what looks like a light weight coat.
unclestevie45
12-03-15, 16:23
I was surprised by the results too. The VP9 is by far my favorite handgun. I'm not as concerned with the way the gun was after he threw it around for awhile. But I am concerned about what happens when a bit of water gets inside the striker channel. That really concerned me.
Evel Baldgui
12-03-15, 16:59
This was a bit disconcerting !
Eurodriver
12-03-15, 17:04
I would have liked to see this done side-by-side with a G19 or other known quantity handgun.
Without a baseline, this test is meaningless.
(I am a devout Glock fanboy. So as much as I want to say "Haha, told you so", I cannot...)
Evel Baldgui
12-03-15, 17:30
I would have liked to see this done side-by-side with a G19 or other known quantity handgun.
Without a baseline, this test is meaningless.
(I am a devout Glock fanboy. So as much as I want to say "Haha, told you so", I cannot...)
At one point in the video he did mention that a similR test was performed with a glock, and, it faired better than the vp9
The water part was interesting. Most guns can fire underwater so that surprised me. Meh, it is what it is.
fivepointoh
12-03-15, 18:16
My take on this, while many pass this video off as extreme in nature and not the norm of day to day routines, the puddle at the very beginning that shut down the striker, is concerning. Secondly the dirt and grime, and I go to Copper Custom about once a week and see Tim (MAC) about once a month, so I am aware of the kind of dirt he is talking about. It's more sand than dirt as we are about 10-30 minutes (depending on where you live) south of Lake Michigan. I live about 10 minutes from it, and the back edge of my back yard is basically sand, with grass growing out of it. What concerns me though, is that on carry guns, how many times does lint get pushed in and out of the actions and all over the handgun? Lots if you EDC.
I've also seen how easy it is to knock the VP9's slide out of battery, which can be worrisome if you're reholstering and you bump the muzzle end on the kydex or just the tension from the kydex throws it just an 1/8" out of battery. I love H&K, but this exposed some real flaws and would like to see more of these basic tests done. We don't have to start chopping trees down or steel poppers to see if the gun chokes.
[QUOTE=Jaysop;2222992Off topic though, does anyone know what kind of jacket he's wearing? [/QUOTE]
Cabelas
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I'm surprised at those results too. I hope lots of people watch this because I still want one... the cheaper the better.
I admit, that surprised me....there was a guy over at hkpro who did water and dirt tests on his vp9 and it functioned fine...although the mud MAC used looks much worse than what he did
As a vp9 guy, I will keep an eye on this
andersenvincent7
12-03-15, 19:25
I think with the added complexity of the trigger components it isn't all that surprising to be honest, I still really like the handgun but it is an eye opener for sure about it's weaknesses
This guy doesn't throw his around and no water involved.... but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghidy-kCR9E
jdavis6576
12-03-15, 19:39
Meh. I'm not seeing anything that would make me second guess the VP9 as my carry choice. Simply entertainment. I haven't seen anything on his channel that would influence my decisions. Reference his 9mm defensive ammo barrier test video and his fawning over Underwood's "consistent 19 inches of penetration and the stretch cavity."
IMO, click bait Clown shoes.
Phillygunguy
12-03-15, 19:55
That's a bit troublesome, oh well I still have my glocks and a p30. Maybe I'll sell one of my VP9s for a p30 sk can't say vp9 is something I'd depend my life on
Man, thats a bit disappointing. I love my vp9. Not sure if the video has really changed my mind though.
civiliansheepdog
12-03-15, 20:13
I think with the added complexity of the trigger components it isn't all that surprising to be honest, I still really like the handgun but it is an eye opener for sure about it's weaknesses
Completely agree.
"Tests" like these mean absolutely nothing to me, whatever the brand.
concreteguy
12-03-15, 20:50
You can definitely see the his disappointment in his face and second guessing his decision on VP9.
That's a bit troublesome, oh well I still have my glocks and a p30. Maybe I'll sell one of my VP9s for a p30 sk can't say vp9 is something I'd depend my life on
You're gonna suddenly go sell off something you liked a lot before you saw the video, because of his one torture test, and get something else?
Buying any and all H&K VP 9's for January delivery at @ $250 1x1
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/hkp7/tradingplaces_zps0u8juv5z.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/hkp7/media/tradingplaces_zps0u8juv5z.jpg.html)
Phillygunguy
12-03-15, 21:18
You're gonna suddenly go sell off something you liked a lot before you saw the video, because of his one torture test, and get something else?
I own 2 so yeah I will still keep one though
To be honest my EDC is a glock 19 i have over 5000 rds with an apex extractor which almost got rid of btf entirely.
I saw Vickers torture test of a glock 17 gen 3 and 4 pretty much handled much worse abuse than what MAC did to his VP 9.
HK did a torture test of the p30, did really well too. I don't know maybe I'll keep it for the 2 is 1 ideology, but it won't be my EDC gun
Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
teutonicpolymer
12-03-15, 22:19
Dugan Ashley from carnikcon did basically all of these things to a P320 in one of his videos and it did great. A lot of the situations were unrealistic (I don't tend to crawl around in mud) but dropping the gun is a real possibility as is water and I would be a little concerned about those things.
I had been planning to get a VP9 at some point because I liked it from shooting it at the range but I think I'll now pass and look more towards the P320, P-09, and perhaps the TP9SA v2 when that comes out or the good old PPQ that seems to have been forgotten.
I was planning on ordering one within the next few weeks.
I guess the VP9 won't be replacing my PPQ after all.
Serious Account
12-03-15, 22:28
The VP9 has like 60 parts (correct me If I'm wrong on this) so the over-complexity may have something to do with all the failures in that vid.
So uh.... how many of you guys think your gun will see these conditions?
I think it's also important to note that basing any decision off of a sample size of less than 7+ is a bit silly. One pistol is not an accurate sample of the population mean, not to mention that you could throw a pistol 50 times at something and never get it to impact the same way a second time. That's why controlled conditions are important.
I have no dog here (I shoot Beretta's only now), just my observation.
Kind of troubling. Guess I'll keep my PPQs. Until MAC tests them... BTW I agree with MAC about the mag release, that's why I have the M2 version of the PPQ.
Kind of troubling. Guess I'll keep my PPQs. Until MAC tests them... BTW I agree with MAC about the mag release, that's why I have the M2 version of the PPQ.
What's that?
MountainRaven
12-03-15, 23:57
I would have liked to see this done side-by-side with a G19 or other known quantity handgun.
Without a baseline, this test is meaningless.
(I am a devout Glock fanboy. So as much as I want to say "Haha, told you so", I cannot...)
I concur with this.
I want to see these tests replicated with a G19/17 and an H&K P30 and/or HK45.
And an M9/92FS. And an M9A3. And a P226. And a S&W 686. And a Wilson Combat 1911. And a box stock Colt Rail Gun. And a CZ75. And....
Bolt_Overide
12-04-15, 02:40
I guess my question would be is anyone here dumb enough to stomp their sidearm into a mud hole?
TheChunkNorris
12-04-15, 04:12
This is the only thing I didn't like about MAC's test... it was a VP9 Torture test and not a comparison. It was a non scientific "Lets see what I can concoct and roll with it". The second he said the Glock could've easily passed that test WITHOUT a Glock to verify... I stopped putting a lot of thought into it. I well respected member on Hkpro posted this in regards to the dead trigger when immersed in water:
This apply to most (if not all) striker fired pistols that do not have special OTB modifications (like PPQ Navy or Glock with "maritime cups") to keep it working with water inside firing pin channel. I never saw HK to advertise VP9/SFP9 as OTB capable. Did I miss something?
This dude shoves dirt INTO the rear of an open slide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghidy-kCR9E&app=desktop
Vids of a G17 failing a simple water test which proves what Montrala pointed out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_53z4S5-Y4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnoYnCijI1M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5iahKNVj44 (guy has face paint on... you know he's serious)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srg4nwVv6go
BatteryOperated
12-04-15, 06:27
Very disturbing to say the least.
As others have said, torture tests can be cool, I wouldn't make any decisions based on them, sample of 1, and an uncountable number of variables.
civiliansheepdog
12-04-15, 07:35
What's that?
It's a standard magazine release instead of the tabbed ones on the trigger guard, like on the VP9.
I've got over 4K rounds through mine and in use in three different training classes for over 2500 of those rounds without a single issue. I'll keep mine.
I concur with this.
I want to see these tests replicated with a G19/17 and an H&K P30 and/or HK45.
And an M9/92FS. And an M9A3. And a P226. And a S&W 686. And a Wilson Combat 1911. And a box stock Colt Rail Gun. And a CZ75. And....
The military-selected side arms from your list (ie, 226 and M9) would have gone through some pretty rough trials to become approved in the form which the military has selected.
It's a standard magazine release instead of the tabbed ones on the trigger guard, like on the VP9.
Right, but what did he say about it?
Sheesh lots of people offended that MAC didn't perform the test they way they wanted it to be performed. You are welcome to do so and post the vid. And for the Gaston devotees MAC mentioned he has performed similar tests to his 19 and it passed.
gtmtnbiker98
12-04-15, 09:17
Although I'm disappointed about the striker failing with water pressure, anytime you throw plastic against steel guess what? yes, plastic will lose.
Some of the replies in this thread are comical. Stop the end of the world fantasies and shoot and maintain the guns like a typical shooter does. Basing your purchasing decision and/or deciding to get rid of a pistol based on a single Youtube video is funny. As much as the membership places themselves on a pedestal when compare to TOS is laughable. I can't tell the difference anymore.
I don't understand why the VP9 did not fire after the first test of just dropping it in water.
A friend of mine sent the video to me, and told me how it was time for me to invest in a new platform. He then offered to take one off my hands. I laughed at both him and the video.
civiliansheepdog
12-04-15, 10:48
Right, but what did he say about it?
Well the left hand mag release tab broke off after he threw into the air several times and threw it at his steel targets. It was bound to happen. Said he was trying to emulate getting tackled or falling down in a fight.
TheChunkNorris
12-04-15, 10:57
I don't understand why the VP9 did not fire after the first test of just dropping it in water.
This apply to most (if not all) striker fired pistols that do not have special OTB modifications (like PPQ Navy or Glock with "maritime cups") to keep it working with water inside firing pin channel. I never saw HK to advertise VP9/SFP9 as OTB capable. Did I miss something?
That's why
High Tower
12-04-15, 11:01
A friend of mine sent the video to me, and told me how it was time for me to invest in a new platform. He then offered to take one off my hands. I laughed at both him and the video.
This is a great idea and, being a team player, I am willing to do a public service and buy up to 10 VP9's off of you regretful buyers for $100 each. :D
But seriously, a) most of the conditions the gun was put through are not exactly safe conditions to be shooting. If I dropped my gun in the mud - and then stomped on it - I would not shoot it afterwards. I'm not a vain man, but I do enjoy the use of both my hands. And b) if you are going to try to say a gun is not reliable, use reliable and well known ammo. ZQ1 or whatever walmart crap used in the test is hardly a base line.
Torture tests are fun to watch once in awhile, but I would never use one to base a purchase off of.
I will offer $110 and I'll gladly give any abandoned/neglected VP9's a warm and caring home! Your security is my top concern! :)
This is a great idea and, being a team player, I am willing to do a public service and buy up to 10 VP9's off of you regretful buyers for $100 each. :D
Torture tests are fun to watch once in awhile, but I would never use one to base a purchase off of.
I don't understand why the VP9 did not fire after the first test of just dropping it in water.
At 20° C Water density is 998.2071 kg/m^3
At 20° C Air density is 1.204 kg/m^3
Ergo, presuming the same environmental conditions for each, water is 830x denser than air.
Enter striker-fired guns, wherein we have a channel where a spring is trying to generate velocity on a doodad so as to result in a certain level of impact IOT ignite a primer; that's with air in the channel.
Replace the usual medium (air) with water, you've provided a fairly serious impediment to the system, one which must be overcome to produce the same results as would happen with only air present.
An attempt to answer such a water condition in such a channel is to provide certain thingamabobs that allow the water to drain faster than it otherwise would. Even these are imperfect solutions that increase the likelihood of success without guaranteeing it.
At 20° C Water density is 998.2071 kg/m^3
At 20° C Air density is 1.204 kg/m^3
Ergo, presuming the same environmental conditions for each, water is 830x denser than air.
Enter striker-fired guns, wherein we have a channel where a spring is trying to generate velocity on a doodad so as to result in a certain level of impact IOT ignite a primer; that's with air in the channel.
Replace the usual medium (air) with water, you've provided a fairly serious impediment to the system, one which must be overcome to produce the same results as would happen with only air present.
An attempt to answer such a water condition in such a channel is to provide certain thingamabobs that allow the water to drain faster than it otherwise would. Even these are imperfect solutions that increase the likelihood of success without guaranteeing it.
I understand now thanks.
crusader377
12-04-15, 12:26
At 20° C Water density is 998.2071 kg/m^3
At 20° C Air density is 1.204 kg/m^3
Ergo, presuming the same environmental conditions for each, water is 830x denser than air.
Enter striker-fired guns, wherein we have a channel where a spring is trying to generate velocity on a doodad so as to result in a certain level of impact IOT ignite a primer; that's with air in the channel.
Replace the usual medium (air) with water, you've provided a fairly serious impediment to the system, one which must be overcome to produce the same results as would happen with only air present.
An attempt to answer such a water condition in such a channel is to provide certain thingamabobs that allow the water to drain faster than it otherwise would. Even these are imperfect solutions that increase the likelihood of success without guaranteeing it.
JSantoro, Do you think a hammered fired pistol would perform better in this test? It would seem like it would but I simply don't have any first hand experience to verify this.
Without the opportunity to do an actual test, vice make a torture-porn gun video for folks to mistake for a test, I'd define it as "greater potential for success under the same conditions," and leave it at that.
rebelsooner
12-04-15, 14:42
Granted his test wasn't scientific and a bit extreme, two things stand out; the water test and especially the mag release. That was disconcerting and could be the guns weakest link.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kind of troubling. Guess I'll keep my PPQs. Until MAC tests them... BTW I agree with MAC about the mag release, that's why I have the M2 version of the PPQ.
Why don't you test your own gun and find out. If Mac recommend a hi-point, will you buy one?
Envoyé de mon SM-N920W8 en utilisant Tapatalk
The grit/mud/water bit surprised me.
Kicking his foot at the muzzle of a loaded pistol raised my eyebrows a bit, too.
I felt that throwing it repeatedly at steel plates was excessive. I'm not sure what that proved. Of course small plastic parts will break off, it's inevitable. I'm more surprised the sights survived.
I'd like to see multiple platforms subjected to the same tests, simultaneously on the same day, same conditions, maybe in more controlled circumstances. It's still a sample size of one.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-04-15, 19:15
1911 FTW!!
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-04-15, 19:25
So disappointed to see the replies in this thread. M4C is supposed to be a place where logical thinkers discuss firearms. All I see are chicken-little comments over a video that proves next-to-nothing.
I want another VP9. I always thought the VP9 was more of a "gamer" or sporting pistol.
Now a USP is what I would take long over a Glock if I were going to be exiled to a jungle hell. That pistol is well proven.
Glock is a good all around pistol, but a USP, IMO, is the one you can utterly neglect. I don't think that 'test' makes the VP9 a bad pistol at all.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
12-04-15, 19:26
So disappointed to see the replies in this thread. M4C is supposed to be a place where logical thinkers discuss firearms. All I see are chicken-little comments over a video that proves next-to-nothing.
If anyone wants to donate the ammo, I'll make a torture test for my VP9 under normal use circumstances.
So disappointed to see the replies in this thread. M4C is supposed to be a place where logical thinkers discuss firearms. All I see are chicken-little comments over a video that proves next-to-nothing.
You've evidently missed the hundreds of times that people say "colt or die".
I will offer $110 and I'll gladly give any abandoned/neglected VP9's a warm and caring home! Your security is my top concern! :)
I'll give anyone $115 for a used VP9 and make you feel better about having to rely on that POS design.
It was disappointing to see, but at the same time its one odd torture test. I bet most striker fired guns with water or grime trapped in the striker channel would behave the same. The VP9 may be at a bit of a disadvantage due to the cocking indicator that allows ore crap to enter the channel, but for EDC events, I dont see it as a problem. When I ran the indestructible Glock, I still maintained it just like I maintained my Wilson or Baer or anything. If I am going to trust my life to something its going to get maintenance.
jackblack73
12-04-15, 20:25
I felt that throwing it repeatedly at steel plates was excessive. I'm not sure what that proved. Of course small plastic parts will break off, it's inevitable.
That's the thing though, a Glock doesn't haven't similar small plastic parts. Other than the crappy sites, which most people replace, I don't see anything on a Glock that would break if thrown in the same manner.
I'm not going to do that to my VP9. I'd almost like to see another pistol tested. HK typically tests the crap out of their firearms.
I don't think throwing plastic at steel and expecting nothing to break is very realistic.
No one cares about throwing it.
We care about water and dirt.
That's the thing though, a Glock doesn't haven't similar small plastic parts. Other than the crappy sites, which most people replace, I don't see anything on a Glock that would break if thrown in the same manner.
The point was, his throwing test was excessive and not controlled. ANY gun could have broken or bent something. The trigger guard on most poly guns is fairly thin, as is the plastic on the grip, etc. A glock could easily have lost a mag release button if it caught a corner of the plate or some similar irregular impact.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-04-15, 23:22
"So disappointed to see the replies in this thread. M4C is supposed to be a place where logical thinkers discuss firearms. All I see are chicken-little comments over a video that proves next-to-nothing."
Ha. I think most of the sensible folks here are taking the video for what its worth (entertainment). Anybody wants to give me a Glock, Smith or Sig to toss in a wood chipper or whatever I will oblige.
crazymoose
12-04-15, 23:33
So disappointed to see the replies in this thread. M4C is supposed to be a place where logical thinkers discuss firearms. All I see are chicken-little comments over a video that proves next-to-nothing.
It's one test, which is not ideal, but is a start. The VP9 had previously just sort of gotten the "it's an HK, it's good to go" presumption.
What gives me pause is the grime in the striker channel (easily fixable; remove the hole) and in the trigger assembly.
Glocks and hammer-fired HK's are known, reliable commodities. Both have fairly sucky triggers. I'm wondering if those triggers weren't a sacrifice in the name of reliability; you start playing with lighter springs and smaller engagement surfaces, as well as tighter tolerances with less slop, and I wonder if this is not a natural consequence. I'd like to see this done across the board on the new generation of "good trigger" striker guns (e.g. also the PPQ and TP9SA).
TheChunkNorris
12-04-15, 23:48
It's one test, which is not ideal, but is a start. The VP9 had previously just sort of gotten the "it's an HK, it's good to go" presumption.
What gives me pause is the grime in the striker channel (easily fixable; remove the hole) and in the trigger assembly.
Glocks and hammer-fired HK's are known, reliable commodities. Both have fairly sucky triggers. I'm wondering if those triggers weren't a sacrifice in the name of reliability; you start playing with lighter springs and smaller engagement surfaces, as well as tighter tolerances with less slop, and I wonder if this is not a natural consequence. I'd like to see this done across the board on the new generation of "good trigger" striker guns (e.g. also the PPQ and TP9SA).
HK does offer modular kits for USP, P2000, and P30 lines. I converted a Custom Combat V1(DA/SA) to a Match LEM Hybrid... it's a different animal completely and so far it's been 100% reliable. The only caveat to that is you can't dry fire that particular set up because the TRS won't rest the trigger all the time... it's not an issue when shooting. HKparts offers a Match trigger kit for the VP9 and I've not had a problem with it either but I'm not doing all the shenanigans MAC did.
TheChunkNorris
12-04-15, 23:49
It's one test, which is not ideal, but is a start. The VP9 had previously just sort of gotten the "it's an HK, it's good to go" presumption.
What gives me pause is the grime in the striker channel (easily fixable; remove the hole) and in the trigger assembly.
Glocks and hammer-fired HK's are known, reliable commodities. Both have fairly sucky triggers. I'm wondering if those triggers weren't a sacrifice in the name of reliability; you start playing with lighter springs and smaller engagement surfaces, as well as tighter tolerances with less slop, and I wonder if this is not a natural consequence. I'd like to see this done across the board on the new generation of "good trigger" striker guns (e.g. also the PPQ and TP9SA).
HK does offer modular kits for USP, P2000, and P30 lines. I converted a Custom Combat V1(DA/SA) to a Match LEM Hybrid... it's a different animal completely and so far it's been 100% reliable. The only caveat to that is you can't dry fire that particular set up because the TRS won't rest the trigger all the time... it's not an issue when shooting. HKparts offers a Match trigger kit for the VP9 and I've not had a problem with it either but I'm not doing all the shenanigans MAC did.
Anyone can go to youtube, punch in the torture test of your favorite pistol and watch all of them pass some and fail some tests. That being said, IMHO the reliable functioning of a combat weapon in adverse conditions (you can decide on what conditions) still trump's pistols that might be a little more accurate or how they feel in your hand when the chips are down.
Interesting indeed. Realistically I don't forsee that kind of abuse ever happening to mine but the mag release was somthing I hadn't concidered.I'd like to see how other guns faired in the sandy mud.
Off topic though, does anyone know what kind of jacket he's wearing? For how cold it looks like it is outside he doesn't seem to be cold in what looks like a light weight coat.
Judging from the lack of steam coming from his breath when he's talking and the water in the snow..it's probably 40F out. I wear a fleece coat like that down to 15F. It's all about what you are acclimated to.
Judging from the lack of steam coming from his breath when he's talking and the water in the snow..it's probably 40F out. I wear a fleece coat like that down to 15F. It's all about what you are acclimated to.
Typically if my hands are cold enough that it hurts to load mags it's pretty dam cold. I was thinking it was probably colder than 40s.
I'm pretty good about not over dressing for cold weather but it would have to be a dam good fleece to wear out at 15 degrees! Then again I'm from NY and your from Alaska. You must be part polar bear or I'm just a pussy
Maybe it's just me but I've noticed a lot of these YouTube gun channels have gone down hill in the last year or so. They used to be a reasonable attempt at providing information (accuracy testing or ballistic gel tests) now they are "watch me shoot 500 rounds through this xyz gun".
I had two VP9's when they first came out but ended up getting rid of both of them after a few months. They were both a little more accurate than my Gen 4 G17 and G19's and I had no problem with their reliability under normal conditions (no mud ,sand or under water). The main things about them that I was not crazy about, were.
1. The finger grooves crowded and very slightly
pinched my fingers.( using a high hold they did not line up with my fingers )
2. The high bore axis had *slightly* more muzzle flip than my Glock 9's and the pistol felt more top heavy and not as fast in my hands.
3. The VP9 has more parts and IMHO a more complex design than the more modular Glock design although the trigger was better on the VP9 out of the box. Kind of like a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry vs a BMW. Status is nice, but I would rather have simplicity and reliability in adverse conditions
4. I just do not care for how little spring pressure holds the VP9's slide in battery. IMO,when it gets real dirty it has a much greater chance of not going fully in battery and causing a dead trigger malfunction.
HK revealed that among other versions (like silencer ready SFP9SD or silencer and red dot ready SFP9SD-RD) they plan "maritime version" (SFP9M) for " trouble-free function of weapon under water and full usability of the weapon after NATO AC225 / D14 long-term salt water test". All other models are described as non-maritime.
SFP9 is worldwide designation for what goes as VP9 in US.
Maybe it's just me but I've noticed a lot of these YouTube gun channels have gone down hill in the last year or so. They used to be a reasonable attempt at providing information (accuracy testing or ballistic gel tests) now they are "watch me shoot 500 rounds through this xyz gun".
It's because they make money for their habit basically. They are becoming the MSM sensational outlet. have to keep churning out "new stuff".
Having said that, it would be cool to see a group of the pros get together. Let's say 6-8 pros with 6-8 pistols. Toss them in the mud and snow... now each guy pick up a random pistol and fire it. Perform next test and each guy grab a different random pistol... continue that until they either break or simply continue to perform. If one guy does it, the Internet will say,, well that one had time to drain, or you did this with gun A and that with gun B.
So I suppose the take away from the MAC video is we should all buy a metal revolver with bobbed hammer.
MountainRaven
12-05-15, 14:36
It's because they make money for their habit basically. They are becoming the MSM sensational outlet. have to keep churning out "new stuff".
Having said that, it would be cool to see a group of the pros get together. Let's say 6-8 pros with 6-8 pistols. Toss them in the mud and snow... now each guy pick up a random pistol and fire it. Perform next test and each guy grab a different random pistol... continue that until they either break or simply continue to perform. If one guy does it, the Internet will say,, well that one had time to drain, or you did this with gun A and that with gun B.
So I suppose the take away from the MAC video is we should all buy a metal revolver with bobbed hammer.
I bet that mud would choke a revolver, too.
Serious Account
12-06-15, 00:07
HK revealed that among other versions (like silencer ready SFP9SD or silencer and red dot ready SFP9SD-RD) they plan "maritime version" (SFP9M) for " trouble-free function of weapon under water and full usability of the weapon after NATO AC225 / D14 long-term salt water test". All other models are described as non-maritime.
SFP9 is worldwide designation for what goes as VP9 in US.
Is there a reason why HK didn't include the OTB feature in the VP9 as standard in the first place? Is there a draw back to the OTB feature?
https://youtu.be/j5SMir0VKdo
interesting
Is there a reason why HK didn't include the OTB feature in the VP9 as standard in the first place? Is there a draw back to the OTB feature?
Only one - price increase. VP9 was designed as Police/Sporting pistol. Original request came from Bavarian Police (this is SFP9-TR) and HK decided that they can design special version with sport trigger for civilian use while at it (and this is VP9/SFP9-SF). Both purposes do not call for OTB capability and both Police pistol tenders and civilian market are price sensitive. Exactly same reason why PPQ does not have maritime package, but special PPQ Navy version is available for customers who need that capability.
Take in mind that original HK416 was not OTB capable. HK then developed OTB package on request by certain SOF unit, then made it available as feature on request, before deciding to incorporate it to all HK416 version (since A2 IIRC) as well as civilian versions (those are not certified for OTB but at least on European market share all OTB components and as on HK employee said to me in Oberndorf "you can shoot your MR223 underwater").
Only one - price increase. VP9 was designed as Police/Sporting pistol. Original request came from Bavarian Police (this is SFP9-TR) and HK decided that they can design special version with sport trigger for civilian use while at it (and this is VP9/SFP9-SF). Both purposes do not call for OTB capability and both Police pistol tenders and civilian market are price sensitive. Exactly same reason why PPQ does not have maritime package, but special PPQ Navy version is available for customers who need that capability.
Take in mind that original HK416 was not OTB capable. HK then developed OTB package on request by certain SOF unit, then made it available as feature on request, before deciding to incorporate it to all HK416 version (since A2 IIRC) as well as civilian versions (those are not certified for OTB but at least on European market share all OTB components and as on HK employee said to me in Oberndorf "you can shoot your MR223 underwater").
Is there a PPQ M1 Navy? Or is the part available?
NorthDakota
12-06-15, 12:28
Thanks MAC for the test. I've been a Glock guy with deviations from time to time into other lines to be familiar. I wanted to like the HK but was mediocre to it on account I had to dremel down the left side paddle release (right handed shooter) as my trigger finger was getting bit by the lever. I have large hands and long fingers so Glocks fit me well. That said, I've gone backpacking and canoeing quite a bit and when taking a greenhorn out, was tipped over in the canoe. My Glock 23 (at the time, have since adopted 9mm, 10mm as primary depending in purpose of use) worked just fine afterwards. Just something that may apply to what you carry.
If Glocks aren't for you, then maybe the PPQ? I found the PPQ's slide stop lever a bit long and possible to interfere with the thumbs. However, I think there are shorter levers available.
The PPQ in this vid doesn't seem to have issues with water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJaJmNPJpf8
So why did so many people gravitate to the VP9 instead of the PPQ? I never have heard that side of the story. Is there a feature of the VP9 that surpasses the PPQ that is especially desired?
DreadPirateMoyer
12-06-15, 13:10
Thanks MAC for the test. I've been a Glock guy with deviations from time to time into other lines to be familiar. I wanted to like the HK but was mediocre to it on account I had to dremel down the left side paddle release (right handed shooter) as my trigger finger was getting bit by the lever. I have large hands and long fingers so Glocks fit me well. That said, I've gone backpacking and canoeing quite a bit and when taking a greenhorn out, was tipped over in the canoe. My Glock 23 (at the time, have since adopted 9mm, 10mm as primary depending in purpose of use) worked just fine afterwards. Just something that may apply to what you carry.
If Glocks aren't for you, then maybe the PPQ? I found the PPQ's slide stop lever a bit long and possible to interfere with the thumbs. However, I think there are shorter levers available.
The PPQ in this vid doesn't seem to have issues with water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJaJmNPJpf8
Neither does the VP9 in other videos, and sometimes Glocks do in other videos (a few linked in this thread). Uncontrolled torture tests are weird like that. Glocks, VP9s, and PPQs don't come stock with maritime enhancements. All will fail in water tests sometimes and not others.
So why did so many people gravitate to the VP9 instead of the PPQ? I never have heard that side of the story. Is there a feature of the VP9 that surpasses the PPQ that is especially desired?
Lots of discussion on this in other VP9 threads since Walther fanboys can't seem to avoid bringing the PPQ up in every VP9 thread. It essentially came down to people not trusting Walther's support chain or business decisions after the PPQ M1/M2 debacle. That was the reason for me not grabbing it when it was one of only 2 or so other competitors to Glock, as well as many others. I just don't trust Walther to not leave me high and dry.
Ah, ok... so not necessarily a mechanical situation. It just seems like that PPQ NAVY vs VP9 for near the same money... seems like the PPQ-N is more gun... and like I say I'm not trying to start another VP9 vs PPQ.. .I actually want a VP9 and have for some time. Just waiting for prices to come down in used market. But... at the same time, that PPQ-N looks like something I would really like with threaded barrel and weather protection to boot.
DreadPirateMoyer
12-06-15, 14:18
Ah, ok... so not necessarily a mechanical situation. It just seems like that PPQ NAVY vs VP9 for near the same money... seems like the PPQ-N is more gun... and like I say I'm not trying to start another VP9 vs PPQ.. .I actually want a VP9 and have for some time. Just waiting for prices to come down in used market. But... at the same time, that PPQ-N looks like something I would really like with threaded barrel and weather protection to boot.
Yeah, I don't think so. PPQs are good guns in my experience, especially mechanically.
I hope HK releases an OTB-capable gun with a threaded barrel. I'm too invested in the VP9 to switch, but I'd sure like a similar package.
I'm keeping one of my VP9's as it's my favorite pistol, but will investigate the Sig P320 a little further now.
MountainRaven
12-06-15, 15:31
Thanks MAC for the test. I've been a Glock guy with deviations from time to time into other lines to be familiar. I wanted to like the HK but was mediocre to it on account I had to dremel down the left side paddle release (right handed shooter) as my trigger finger was getting bit by the lever. I have large hands and long fingers so Glocks fit me well. That said, I've gone backpacking and canoeing quite a bit and when taking a greenhorn out, was tipped over in the canoe. My Glock 23 (at the time, have since adopted 9mm, 10mm as primary depending in purpose of use) worked just fine afterwards. Just something that may apply to what you carry.
If Glocks aren't for you, then maybe the PPQ? I found the PPQ's slide stop lever a bit long and possible to interfere with the thumbs. However, I think there are shorter levers available.
The PPQ in this vid doesn't seem to have issues with water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJaJmNPJpf8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY8JzpR3tDk
(Needless to say, he ultimately didn't choose a DA/SA but the VP9.)
High Altitude
12-06-15, 21:39
I could care less about all the extreme tests people do with respect to wether or not I think the pistol is good for carry, although they are fun to watch, but any pistol I carry must be able to work after being dunked in water, mud, sand, dirt etc.... I have seen plenty of pistols hit the ground.
TheChunkNorris
12-07-15, 01:08
So why did so many people gravitate to the VP9 instead of the PPQ? I never have heard that side of the story. Is there a feature of the VP9 that surpasses the PPQ that is especially desired?
I personally like the grip on the VP9 and the overall quality is "better" but that's subjective. I love the PPQ's trigger but after changing the VP9's to a Match set up... it's just as good. I prefer the paddle style of the M1 vs the button of the M2 because I have smaller hands so manipulating the mag release with my index finger works better for me. I personally think the VP9 is packaged better than most striker fires out there
Is there a PPQ M1 Navy? Or is the part available?
Original PPQ Navy was in what they call now Classic in Europe. Now probably only M2 is available. I do not know what parts are different.
BTW It is not like Glock or PPQ or VP9 will not shoot at all when under water or picked up from water without "maritime kit". Several test shows that it is not true. What this maritime versions or kits do, is to make them work reliably in those conditions (read increased probability of working right). If you really want something that works 100% under water you should take SPP1 or APS and call it a day! ;)
The test was extreme? How about some of the torture tests LAV did on Tac-TV with the DDM4? Blowing it up in a car comes to mind? Blowing up a couple of Glock 17's? Freezing them solid? Dropping them out of a helicopter? Funny how those tests weren't "extreme" as everyone is saying these tests were. Honestly I'd want to see what a gun can be put through no matter how "extreme" and see if it still works, then I'd stake my life on it.
Lets face it-the Germans have a long history of making nice guns but they are overly complicated. If they would ever make ammunition, for sure there would be a grease fitting required for the roller system that would transfer the spark created by the primer to the powder. This is the same with their guns-they work but there are too many damn parts.
TheChunkNorris
12-07-15, 07:10
The test was extreme? How about some of the torture tests LAV did on Tac-TV with the DDM4? Blowing it up in a car comes to mind? Blowing up a couple of Glock 17's? Freezing them solid? Dropping them out of a helicopter? Funny how those tests weren't "extreme" as everyone is saying these tests were. Honestly I'd want to see what a gun can be put through no matter how "extreme" and see if it still works, then I'd stake my life on it.
Lets face it-the Germans have a long history of making nice guns but they are overly complicated. If they would ever make ammunition, for sure there would be a grease fitting required for the roller system that would transfer the spark created by the primer to the powder. This is the same with their guns-they work but there are too many damn parts.
Links? Pretty sure you can't shoot a gun when it's in a block of ice.
No shit they won't fire when frozen solid, tho Larry did it to the DD and a pair of Glock pistols. It was on Tac-TV so I'm sure that its on YouTube somewhere.
If I don't post a link does that mean it didn't happen???
TheChunkNorris
12-07-15, 07:32
No shit they won't fire when frozen solid, tho Larry did it to the DD and a pair of Glock pistols. It was on Tac-TV so I'm sure that its on YouTube somewhere.
If I don't post a link does that mean it didn't happen???
Looks like you're not really good at this whole sarcasm thing.
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Mentioned "extreme" tests have one common factor. They act on exterior of weapon and as far as those will not mechanically destroy it from outside, it will keep working. Now when you start putting things inside workings, you open whole different can of worms. That is why certain weapon systems have dust covers, sealed magazine wells when magazine in place, etc. Because good engineering and manufacturing can only do so much when spaces that are supposed to be empty are occupied.
I figured you were being sarcastic but I have also run into those on this forum that want you to tie everything up in a perfect bow for them to even consider your argument valid.
Side note on the DD being frozen in dry ice-once the upper warmed up enough for it to expand back to its normal size it worked fine even tho the rest of the gun was still covered in ice.
crusader377
12-07-15, 10:53
Interesting test on the HK VP9 with a lot of interesting comments. Was somewhat surprised on the mediocre performance of the VP9 and it is interesting on how all of the HK fans are defending their pistol. If a less popular/less cool gun such as a Springfield XD, Beretta PX 4 or S&W M&P had similar performance, everyone would be trashing the gun relentlessly.
Here are what I think are a few takeaways from the test.
1) If you have an HK VP9 or thinking about buying a HK VP9 there is still no reason not to buy or shoot the gun. 99.9% of civilian or law enforcement shooters are not going to abuse their pistols like this and I think is still a good defensive pistol for the vast majority of shooters.
2) That said, although I think the HK VP 9 is a great commercial/law enforcement grade pistol it probably not a particularly strong military grade pistol.
3) If you want that "to hell and back pistol", buy something that is actually combat proven. Probably my short list for 9mm would be a Glock 17/19, CZ-75, Beretta 92, BHP mark 3, or a Sig P226. All of these guns are very combat proven and have been used in successfully worldwide under a variety of conditions.
4) Although the HK VP9 turned a mediocre performance, I think many of your newer designs would have similar surprises. My reasoning is that most gun companies are relatively small in the whole scheme of things with limited development/testing budgets and new pistols are being released almost on a monthly basis. The civilian and law enforcement pistol market is far larger than the military pistol market and companies are meeting the demands of their most likely customers at an affordable price point. These customers aren't going to be spending weeks or months in the mud like a infantry soldier and it is somewhat foolish to expect that these pistols perform well in a scenario that they weren't really designed for.
Psalms144.1
12-07-15, 11:06
The water part was interesting. Most guns can fire underwater so that surprised me. Meh, it is what it is.I've personally witnessed multiple GLOCKs fail on the line when the shooter had over-lubricated the slide, so that lube and other gunk got into the striker channel and slowed the striker to the point of light primer hits. Water does the same thing - this is the reason why GLOCK makes "Maritime" or "Marine" striker cups - to increase the ability of water to clear out of the striker channel in the event of a submersion.
I can't speak to the rest of the test, and, I would definitely have liked to have seen other brands tested side by side through the same abuse, as a baseline.
plouffedaddy
12-07-15, 13:20
Interesting test on the HK VP9 with a lot of interesting comments. Was somewhat surprised on the mediocre performance of the VP9 and it is interesting on how all of the HK fans are defending their pistol. If a less popular/less cool gun such as a Springfield XD, Beretta PX 4 or S&W M&P had similar performance, everyone would be trashing the gun relentlessly.
Here are what I think are a few takeaways from the test.
1) If you have an HK VP9 or thinking about buying a HK VP9 there is still no reason not to buy or shoot gun. 99.9% of civilian or law enforcement shooters are not going to abuse their pistols like this and I think is still a good defensive pistol for the vast majority of shooters.
2) That said, although I think the HK VP 9 is a great commercial/law enforcement grade pistol it probably not a particularly strong military grade pistol.
3) If you want that "to hell and back pistol", buy something that is actually very combat proven. Probably my short list for 9mm would be a Glock 17/19, CZ-75, Beretta 92, BHP mark 3, or a Sig P226. All of these guns are very combat proven and have been used in successfully worldwide under a variety of conditions.
4) Although the HK VP9 turned a mediocre performance, I think many of your newer designs would have similar surprises. My reasoning is that most gun companies are relatively small in the whole scheme of things with limited development/testing budgets and new pistols are being released almost on a monthly basis. The civilian and law enforcement pistol market is far larger than the military pistol market and companies are meeting the demands of their most likely customers at an affordable price point. These customers aren't going to be spending weeks or months in the mud like a infantry soldier and it is somewhat foolish to expect that these pistols perform well in a scenario that they weren't really designed for.
That is absolutely true.
BatteryOperated
12-07-15, 13:27
If you want to break something you can probably do so. I have a PPQ M2 version, but that is not to say it is not prone to failure. If you research further into the PPQ, you will find instances of broken paddles on the M1 version (Walther Forum), and broken picatinny rail sections. The videos are entertaining and good research tools, however under normal operating circumstances the majority of shooters will never experience such mishaps.
http://www.thebangswitch.com/when-polymer-fails/
http://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/thebangswitch/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/IMG_5850-300x200.jpg
The test was extreme? How about some of the torture tests LAV did on Tac-TV with the DDM4? Blowing it up in a car comes to mind? Blowing up a couple of Glock 17's? Freezing them solid? Dropping them out of a helicopter? Funny how those tests weren't "extreme" as everyone is saying these tests were. Honestly I'd want to see what a gun can be put through no matter how "extreme" and see if it still works, then I'd stake my life on it.
Lets face it-the Germans have a long history of making nice guns but they are overly complicated. If they would ever make ammunition, for sure there would be a grease fitting required for the roller system that would transfer the spark created by the primer to the powder. This is the same with their guns-they work but there are too many damn parts.
I don't think I'd go THAT far.. I mean, sure, A VP9 is probably a little over complex for a striker fired pistol, especially when compared to a Glock. But, Is a Sig 220, or 229 any more complex than say a USP, or P-30? I'd wager not... The VP9 is like any other pistol, it's a compromise.. and, it appears that turbid water may be just enough to induce a failure to fire.. But since this was pretty much an uncontrolled test, meaning that the results may not be able to be duplicated, I wouldn't read a whole lot into it just yet.. If someone could do a controlled test and the VP9 fails to fire over and over again, I'd say at that point, they're on to something..
The test was extreme? How about some of the torture tests LAV did on Tac-TV with the DDM4? Blowing it up in a car comes to mind? Blowing up a couple of Glock 17's? Freezing them solid? Dropping them out of a helicopter? Funny how those tests weren't "extreme" as everyone is saying these tests were. Honestly I'd want to see what a gun can be put through no matter how "extreme" and see if it still works, then I'd stake my life on it.
Lets face it-the Germans have a long history of making nice guns but they are overly complicated. If they would ever make ammunition, for sure there would be a grease fitting required for the roller system that would transfer the spark created by the primer to the powder. This is the same with their guns-they work but there are too many damn parts.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hks2G4Gwom0
WatchTheWorldBern
12-07-15, 19:34
Mauser KAR98K (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?177283-H-amp-K-VP9-40-and-USP-water-clay-and-mud-test) just repeated (more or less) the same test with three VP series pistols (VP9, VP9LE, VP40) and a USP. Similar results:
Conclusion:
It is not so much as the trigger mechanism but the the firing pin channel and spring that is causing the failure to fire. I believe the firing pin spring is too light, and with the opening at the back of the pistol with the firing pin exposed, water mixed with grit is causing the failure to fire. It seems once the the channel is cleared to a degree, the VP9 will fire, but will need to be tapped into battery.
The out of battery issue is a combination of the dirt and grit creating more friction at the slide rails. Compound this to the light recoil spring and problem seems to compound itself. It seemed with the VP40 and the heavier recoil, the slide was able to go into battery much easier when fired.
The USP suffered from the same out of battery and lock up do to the foreign matter clogging the action. Once I was able to push the slide ope and manually cycle it, though, it was able to fire in both the clay and mud tests, but it experience failure to eject multiple times. It did, however, fire on every trigger pull, and the trigger pull weight never increased.
The VP series of pistols are a fine pistol for that many were waiting impatiently for H&K to make. The trigger pull is probably the best on the market for a production, stock, gun. The interchangeable grip panels makes the pistol very costumizable for almost any shooter to run. Where the pistol fails, however, is that it is over engineered with too many safety features or user friendly ideas that are hampering the pistol in adverse conditions. The opening to view the firing pin at the back of the pistol is the most glaring of these problems. I would also venture to say the firing pin spring is also to light.
With that said, even the looser USP failed in some fashion as well. This test should show that probably even other pistols, including Glock would have had an issue with the clay and mud tests. Getting that much dirt and mud jammed into the weapon will cause anything to have out of battery issues.
The one thing that did not fail through all these tests: H&K magazines. not one failure was solely attributed to the magazines. I did have failure to feed issues with half way loaded rounds, but once the slide was gently pulled back, the round righted it self and the slide was easily closed. H&K magazines are probably far better than i think most give them credit for. fifteen rounds seems low compared to the Glock 17's capacity, but H&K engineer for their mags to work and work over long periods of time. These test prove that.
Last observation: With all this said, I would still carry the VP9 as an everyday carry weapon. The accuracy, ergonomics and trigger are its biggest selling points, and I shoot the VP9 better than most any pistol I have fired. One the same token, however, I my EDC carry piece and overall sidearm with still remain the USP series. The reliability is unquestionable, and even with the malfunctions that it did have, it took a lot less time and headache to the get it back up and running, even if I still had to cycle the action to chamber a new round. The looser tolerances and the hammer fired action increases USP's durability and reliability that it will fire and some point when needed. So, I still trust my USP over the anything else.
What H&K should do is close the hole, and figure out how to place a heaver recoil spring to aid in it's cycling. Once this is done, the VP9 should keep pace with Glock and other striker fire manufactures. The VP9 has been a run away success, but H&K does not need to have this thing go belly up in the conditions it was tested in, causing the company's financial woes to get far worse. The improvements on the VP series, and also trigger modifications on their other lines would be better for H&K in the long run.
I have a VP9 and will be switching to a Glock, but for me that's about logistics and ergonomics.
I have a VP9 and will be switching to a Glock, but for me that's about logistics and ergonomics.
That may be the first time that I have heard someone choose a Glock over a VP9, because of ergonomics.
WatchTheWorldBern
12-07-15, 19:50
That may be the first time that I have heard someone choose a Glock over a VP9, because of ergonomics.
I don't understand it! The VP9 feels terrible to me, and the Glock 19 fits my hand perfectly. A few people on HKPro have posted having some of the same issue—the back of the VP9 crushes the first joint of my thumb—so I'm not completely alone here. I have small hands, but the small panels and backstrap did nothing to alleviate the problem.
Need to see if my LGS will take a NIB VP9 as a trade in.
High Altitude
12-07-15, 20:23
All I want to see is a repeat of Tim's first test with a batch of different pistols.
IMO, if you drop your pistol into a muddy/sandy water hole or into sand or dirt, it should still work.
That may be the first time that I have heard someone choose a Glock over a VP9, because of ergonomics.
A Glock 19 feels like it was made just for me. The VP9 feels clumsy and top heavy to me.
DanjojoUSMC
12-07-15, 20:35
Think some were/are confused that firearms designed for LEO/civilian use are held up to the same criteria as ones designed for military service - causing extra fuss.
The testing did go in a silly direction after the disappointing beginning...the venting doesn't make me think less of the guy or the firearm, though.
Obviously various HK models are best suited for specific roles, as with most all brands of tool product - choose based on your specific wants and needs.
High Altitude
12-07-15, 20:55
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hks2G4Gwom0
That's impressive.
Ralph-Having been inside many Sig "P" series pistols and looking at the internals of the VP9, IMHO I think there are more small parts and areas that HK could simplify things.
Phillygunguy
12-08-15, 06:35
Maybe HK could release an after market plug for the firing pin channel and a heavier spring. I never really liked the loaded chamber indicator the protrudes out the back, but I guess that redundancy was decided by lawyers, not engineers .
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richiecotite
12-08-15, 08:51
SFP9 is worldwide designation for what goes as VP9 in US.
Might be a dumb question, but what's on the slide of non US versions? VP9 or SFP9?
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TheChunkNorris
12-08-15, 08:55
Might be a dumb question, but what's on the slide of non US versions? VP9 or SFP9?
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SFP9...
I have a VP9(love it), Sig P320C, Glock 19, CZP07, and a few others. Glocks may be ugly but they work.
Ralph-Having been inside many Sig "P" series pistols and looking at the internals of the VP9, IMHO I think there are more small parts and areas that HK could simplify things.
Have you ever been inside a P-30, HK45? I have, and as I said comparing one of those to a Sig, (both being DA/SA so, it's apples to apples comparison here) I'd wager either of those are on par with a Sig.. We could take it a step farther and take a Sig, drop it into some muddy water, step on it, and see how it does.. There's a 50-50 chance it'll run.. But, what if it failed? Does that mean the Sig is a POS? As far as the VP9 having more small parts and could be simplified, I agree, But until I see a controlled test, and the VP9 continues to fail, I'm not putting a lot into this "test" other than entertainment value.. With out a controlled test, there too many variables here to draw a meaningful conclusion...
WatchTheWorldBern
12-08-15, 10:44
SFP9 is worldwide designation for what goes as VP9 in US.
There's also some kind of mechanical difference, though I don't know what it is or if it matters in any way. There's a weight difference between the slides—something like an ounce ish lighter on the SFP9.
Anyone know more about this?
Serious Account
12-08-15, 12:27
I've heard that the SFP9 (unlike the VP9) isn't rated for +P ammo as well.
Only one - price increase. VP9 was designed as Police/Sporting pistol. Original request came from Bavarian Police (this is SFP9-TR) and HK decided that they can design special version with sport trigger for civilian use while at it (and this is VP9/SFP9-SF). Both purposes do not call for OTB capability and both Police pistol tenders and civilian market are price sensitive. Exactly same reason why PPQ does not have maritime package, but special PPQ Navy version is available for customers who need that capability.
Take in mind that original HK416 was not OTB capable. HK then developed OTB package on request by certain SOF unit, then made it available as feature on request, before deciding to incorporate it to all HK416 version (since A2 IIRC) as well as civilian versions (those are not certified for OTB but at least on European market share all OTB components and as on HK employee said to me in Oberndorf "you can shoot your MR223 underwater").
Thanks for the clarification, Montrala
WatchTheWorldBern
12-08-15, 13:16
I've heard that the SFP9 (unlike the VP9) isn't rated for +P ammo as well.
That's kinda surprising—isn't EU 9mm supposed to run a bit hotter on average?
plouffedaddy
12-08-15, 13:26
That's kinda surprising—isn't EU 9mm supposed to run a bit hotter on average?
It's similar to NATO spec'd ammo
I've heard that the SFP9 (unlike the VP9) isn't rated for +P ammo as well.
This is correct. Most European countries are members of C.I.P., and C.I.P. specification do not allow equivalent of +P+ ammo. Basically limit is same as for 9mm NATO. Due to this HK reduced slide mass slightly and SFP9 probably will shoot little "flatter" with same ammo than VP9. However I tested +P+ ammo with no problem. All it does is increase slide velocity a bit more than HK likes. In long run wear and tear would be faster than desired if someone would solely use +P+.
teutonicpolymer
12-08-15, 22:59
He did a test of a makarov some time before this and it actually did very well. It did disassemble itself when fired under water but I think that was an issue of it being fired in a small tub that lost pressure as the bullet exited.
In regards to the M9 and the P226 (MK25) I do think that the Army and Navy would have put those pistols through the wringer with tests like similar and maybe worse than this before they were issued to their respective units.
Lets be honest-it doesn't matter what the gun, if people love it and then something comes out where it doesn't come up to par, everyone who is a fan of it will jump to the defense of said platform.
Endurance test is one thing but if the gun fails because of being dropped in water and mud then that is a problem. There is a huge hole on the back of the slide where dirt and debris can get into the gun. If you hold the gun up to the light you can see daylight between the slide and the frame (another area for dirt and grit to enter) Again my point made earlier about an abundance of small internals, what do you think will happen when small bits of dirt and such get into them??? You have a plastic magazine release that that is small, thin, exposed and it has to hinge. This to me is a major flaw. It does show why Walther went to the M2 design on the PPQ. IMHO the push button magazine release is still the most solid option for a mag release.
If you want to compare a P226 to the VP9 in how well it holds up to these tests I'm betting you wouldn't like the outcome. Hell I bet you wouldn't like the outcome if it were done side by side with a Glock 19. As a daily carry gun or a duty gun or even a range toy I'm sure the VP9 that is sold here in the US is just fine but has anyone questioned why HK has different variations of the VP9....maybe they know something that people over here don't???
WatchTheWorldBern
12-10-15, 08:07
Light between the slide and the frame isn't really that informative—Glocks have it, etc. If HK doesn't come out with a sealed/flat rear plate, though, I'm sure someone will. That's clearly just a huge mistake.
Button releases can fail too, in some ways more spectacularly. That part of the test meant a lot less to me, and I think most people had a similar reaction to watching him throw it at steel plates.
I say this as someone who picked up a VP9, in part influenced by MAC's endorsement—and I'm probably going to sell or trade it without ever having fired it (more for ergonomic reasons and parts logistics—it just doesn't fit me).
HK doesn't have many variations of the VP9—in fact, just one model, if you don't count the LE (which only differs in sights). The SFP9 has a bunch of variations coming, including a maritime version that I imagine would have to solve some of these issues. That may make it to the US, or maybe they'll just update the VP9 with whatever HK's version of maritime cups is.
I was under the impression from another forum that there is a Navy version of the VP9 and the one sold here in the states is basically a "gamer gun"
I'll give you the argument that Glock can also see daylight between the frame and the slide but you also don't have all the extra internal stuff either.
To have a sealed rear plate might be an issue unless they change/drop/remove the striker indicator as I think that they protrude out the back when the striker is set. I wonder how the Walther P99 was set up as it used the same system but I haven't heard of any issues with it. Could part of it be that Walther used a lift type striker block instead of a pivot type?
I was under the impression from another forum that there is a Navy version of the VP9 and the one sold here in the states is basically a "gamer gun"
I'll give you the argument that Glock can also see daylight between the frame and the slide but you also don't have all the extra internal stuff either.
To have a sealed rear plate might be an issue unless they change/drop/remove the striker indicator as I think that they protrude out the back when the striker is set. I wonder how the Walther P99 was set up as it used the same system but I haven't heard of any issues with it. Could part of it be that Walther used a lift type striker block instead of a pivot type?
There's an awful lot of BTDT /highly knowledgeable types who do not consider it a gamer gun. Considering how good the first gen VP9 is, with some small tweaks, it will likely be one of the best striker fired polymer pistols of all time. The Gen 4 Glocks sure as heck suffered some growing pains from even the generational design changes with recalls on the recoil spring and ejector issues I recall.
Me, wont be giving up my VP9 any time soon and expect it to only get better as some of these teething pains show themselves and are addressed. A non controlled n =1 test is not exactly something to go form a VP9 fan to selling your VP9 collection, but some will anyway.
For me, as a civi, and under the conditions I'll use it, range, courses, HD, CCW, IDPA, etc, it's an excellent choice and dead nuts reliable to date.
I'd like to see it tested under controlled conditions against other pistols and more than a single sample. That's the only way such tests are of any legit value to making choices.
Eurodriver
12-10-15, 09:28
There's an awful lot of BTDT /highly knowledgeable types who do not consider it a gamer gun.
...and yet they just made the G19 their go-to? :dirol:
VP9's are illegal to CCW in Florida, Will. Best to sell it and get yourself a G26/G19 combo.
...and yet they just made the G19 their go-to? :dirol:
VP9's are illegal to CCW in Florida, Will. Best to sell it and get yourself a G26/G19 combo.
Meh. By all accounts, very hard to go wrong with a G19, but ergos (which have improved greatly in newer Gens to be sure), trigger you either love or hate (put me in the later category) and a POI that has never seemed natural to where the sites are aligned, has never put Glock on my short list.
I'd take a Shield over a 26 any day all day, and did.
VP9 is not a "gamer gun". It is HK gun with "gamer trigger". When I talked with HK guys way back before VP9 was offcialy presented (and when I could not take pictures of SFP9 prototype they had on hand) they told that they have two versions in work.
1. Police pistol, with trigger made to meet German requirements for police pistol and slide charging support (this became SFP9-TR, already adopted by Police in Saxony).
2. Competition pistol for civilians with trigger made in together with HK IPSC shooters team in Germany and no charging supports (this become VP9/SFP9-SF, but charging supports were left in place).
BTW One of HK guys mentioned that civilian version was supposed to ship with removable thumb rest for better recoil management. But I did not get more detailed info out of him about that.
BTW2 I wait for SFP9SD-RD. I will then finally have opportunity to build HK Open Division Race Gun w/o to much commie style hacksaw gunsmithing ;)
crusader377
12-10-15, 10:11
There's an awful lot of BTDT /highly knowledgeable types who do not consider it a gamer gun. Considering how good the first gen VP9 is, with some small tweaks, it will likely be one of the best striker fired polymer pistols of all time. The Gen 4 Glocks sure as heck suffered some growing pains from even the generational design changes with recalls on the recoil spring and ejector issues I recall.
I think it is awfully premature to claim the VP9 will go down is one of the best pistols of all time. Fundamentally it is an unproven weapon whose performance in adverse conditions seems to be more similar to a $300-$400 commercial grade pistol than a true professional grade pistol. Even though I don't shoot them particularly well IMO the only polymer weapon that has the proven performance to occupy that elite level of one of the best pistols of all time is Glock 17/19.
Its not that I have anything against polymer pistols and I actually enjoy my M&P a great deal but that said if I want "To hell and back" reliability I would take my Beretta 92FS any day of the week over the M&P.
I think it is awfully premature to claim the VP9 will go down is one of the best pistols of all time.
I made no such claim. I said with some additional improvements, it could go down as one of the best striker fired polymer pistols. Read what I wrote specifically. Two, n =1 non controlled test is of no value to deciding on a "To hell and back" gun. Yes, I wish it had performed better in that n =1 un controlled test, but it doesn't alter my opinion of the VP9 at this time in terms of my recs/uses.
And this is where I will say that everyone has an opinion on things and TBH I don't see it becoming the "greatest striker fired pistol of all time" Lets face it, how many times can we reinvent the wheel? Its a plastic, striker fired gun. Actually its a striker fired P30, who cares. Its gotten to the point that everyone on here is an "expert" at jack shit and if you don't fall into the "Glock 19 or die" category your ostracized for having a difference of opinion.
To the point of " could be the greatest striker fired pistol of all time" honestly the way I read that post was the same way that crusader377 read it. If you want to make that claim then you better be able to show how a Glock has failed at this. Interchangeable grip panels?? Big Deal....everyone cuts, grinds, and stipples their Glock anyhow so that argument is invalid. Having a good trigger? Well to be honest I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a good trigger is bad in some guns and yet good in others-case in point-a 1911 has a "crutch trigger" as it can be refined to perfection (yes I'm quoting Mr. Vickers) but everyone will polish, stone, tweak, and fiddle with their Glock or M&P (dropping $100's in the process) to attain a "good trigger" So again to me that argument is invalid as well. If you want to base it off the mechanics of the gun, well I hate to tell you but Glock y'all beat as they are a hell of a lot simpler internally. Keep It Simple Stupid still rings true when it comes to this. Part of why Glock is so popular is that just about any moron can work on one as they are so stupidly simple internally. You need an engineering degree to work on HK stuff as they are over engineered (not just HK but just about anything made by Germans)
crusader377
12-10-15, 12:18
I made no such claim. I said with some additional improvements, it could go down as one of the best striker fired polymer pistols. Read what I wrote specifically. Two, n =1 non controlled test is of no value to deciding on a "To hell and back" gun. Yes, I wish it had performed better in that n =1 un controlled test, but it doesn't alter my opinion of the VP9 at this time in terms of my recs/uses.
Will, I really don't care if a particular pistol is a polymer framed striker fired pistol or not. What I think is the most important criteria for a defensive pistol is that does it goes bang every time you shoot it? To illustrate my point, you can buy a Glock 17/19 with factory magazines and once you fire a couple of magazines to confirm proper function, you can then take it to the field in nearly any shithole on the planet and it will shoot. Older designs such as the traditional style Sig P220 series guns, Beretta 92, CZ-75, and the even older BHP can also do that as well. The HK VP9 simply isn't there.
And this is where I will say that everyone has an opinion on things and TBH I don't see it becoming the "greatest striker fired pistol of all time" Lets face it, how many times can we reinvent the wheel? Its a plastic, striker fired gun. Actually its a striker fired P30, who cares. Its gotten to the point that everyone on here is an "expert" at jack shit and if you don't fall into the "Glock 19 or die" category your ostracized for having a difference of opinion.
To the point of " could be the greatest striker fired pistol of all time" honestly the way I read that post was the same way that crusader377 read it.
Lets look again:
"Considering how good the first gen VP9 is, with some small tweaks, it will likely be one of the best striker fired polymer pistols of all time."
I'll clarify additionally to say: with some additional improvements to the next gen, could go on to be seen as one of the best striker fired polymer pistols of the ilk, but, I'd like to see it tested under controlled conditions and compared to other designs.
I'm no HSLD type, and will leave it there for the more knowledgeable here to comment. I just don't appreciate having words put in my mouth never said.
If you want to make that claim then you better be able to show how a Glock has failed at this. Interchangeable grip panels?? Big Deal....everyone cuts, grinds, and stipples their Glock anyhow so that argument is invalid. Having a good trigger? Well to be honest I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a good trigger is bad in some guns and yet good in others-case in point-a 1911 has a "crutch trigger" as it can be refined to perfection (yes I'm quoting Mr. Vickers) but everyone will polish, stone, tweak, and fiddle with their Glock or M&P (dropping $100's in the process) to attain a "good trigger" So again to me that argument is invalid as well. If you want to base it off the mechanics of the gun, well I hate to tell you but Glock y'all beat as they are a hell of a lot simpler internally. Keep It Simple Stupid still rings true when it comes to this. Part of why Glock is so popular is that just about any moron can work on one as they are so stupidly simple internally. You need an engineering degree to work on HK stuff as they are over engineered (not just HK but just about anything made by Germans)
I'm not sure what your point is in the above ramble, but if you find Glocks cover your needs, drive on. To repeat, I don't like the Glock ergos (which have improved greatly in recent Gens to be sure), don't like that stubby Glock trigger, don't like the sites, etc. all of which has been debated to death between Glock fan boys and non.
Your mileage may vary.
That's funny that you can't understand my "ramble" Read it with an open mind and it should be clear as crystal.
I am FAR from a Glock fanboy as my EDC is a Sig MK25 or a Wilson Combat 1911.
No one was putting words in your mouth but ergo just reading what you said. If that is not your intended meaning then perhaps you should have changed the wording. Funny thing about the inner-web, sarcasm just doesn't have the same reaction that it does in person.
Will, I really don't care if a particular pistol is a polymer framed striker fired pistol or not. What I think is the most important criteria for a defensive pistol is that it goes bang every time you shoot it. To illustrate my point, you can buy a Glock 17/19 with factory magazines and once you fire a couple of magazines to confirm proper function, you can then take it to the field in nearly any shithole on the planet and it will shoot. Older designs such as the traditional style Sig P220 series guns, Beretta 92, CZ-75, and the even older BHP can also do that as well. The HK VP9 simply isn't there.
There's no gun on the planet that " goes bang every time you shoot it" Zip, nadda. Under the right/wrong conditions, any gun can and will fail. Right? So to that end, how reliable is it and under what conditions? A few mags then off to shit hole? What about the Gen 4 Glocks that had to be recalled that had issues with recoil springs and ejectors? I wouldn't personally take any gun to a shit hole after a few mags to confirm function, but that's me.
The point I assume you're trying to make is, the VP9 has not been around long enough compared to those you listed to be considered fully vetted under worst conditions, and I didn't deny that or claim otherwise. To repeat, I'd like to see it tested formally under controlled conditions and compared to others and see how it fairs.
I, as a civi who has found the VP9 very reliable under the conditions I will use it, range, IDPA, courses, CCW, HD, will not change platforms due to that n = 1vid under non controlled testing
Makes sense?
That's funny that you can't understand my "ramble" Read it with an open mind and it should be clear as crystal.
I am FAR from a Glock fanboy as my EDC is a Sig MK25 or a Wilson Combat 1911.
No one was putting words in your mouth but ergo just reading what you said. If that is not your intended meaning then perhaps you should have changed the wording. Funny thing about the inner-web, sarcasm just doesn't have the same reaction that it does in person.
True enough. Nothing I could add I haven't already said.
DreadPirateMoyer
12-10-15, 12:44
TLDR for this entire thread: there are videos of Glocks failing in uncontrolled torture tests, and videos of the VP9 firing just fine in uncontrolled sandy water tests. If you own a Glock or don't like HK because of an old meme, ignore the above and get off on yelling about the same old stuff to justify your purchases to yourself as well as misquoting external information and other members of the forum to strengthen your strawmen. If you don't own a Glock or don't have an irrational hatred for a gun company, either bring up the PPQ like in every other VP9 thread or talk about how MAC's test needs to be repeated a few times since uncontrolled torture tests are hard to gauge.
Thread's run its course. If it keeps going, the entire discussion will be the above over and over and over. You can thank me for the hours of your life I just saved.
TLDR for this entire thread: there are videos of Glocks failing in uncontrolled torture tests, and videos of the VP9 firing just fine in uncontrolled sandy water tests. If you own a Glock or don't like HK because of an old meme, ignore the above and get off on yelling about the same old stuff to justify your purchases to yourself as well as misquoting external information and other members of the forum to strengthen your strawmen. If you don't own a Glock or don't have an irrational hatred for a gun company, either bring up the PPQ like in every other VP9 thread or talk about how MAC's test needs to be repeated a few times since uncontrolled torture tests are hard to gauge.
Thread's run its course. If it keeps going, the entire discussion will be the above over and over and over. You can thank me for the hours of your life I just saved.
You're right, it's ran it's course, Hopefully, the mods will put a lock on it, as it's going nowhere..
double post, I'm having problems on my end ,sorry
And this is where I will say that everyone has an opinion on things and TBH I don't see it becoming the "greatest striker fired pistol of all time" Lets face it, how many times can we reinvent the wheel? Its a plastic, striker fired gun. Actually its a striker fired P30, who cares. Its gotten to the point that everyone on here is an "expert" at jack shit and if you don't fall into the "Glock 19 or die" category your ostracized for having a difference of opinion.
To the point of " could be the greatest striker fired pistol of all time" honestly the way I read that post was the same way that crusader377 read it. If you want to make that claim then you better be able to show how a Glock has failed at this. Interchangeable grip panels?? Big Deal....everyone cuts, grinds, and stipples their Glock anyhow so that argument is invalid. Having a good trigger? Well to be honest I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a good trigger is bad in some guns and yet good in others-case in point-a 1911 has a "crutch trigger" as it can be refined to perfection (yes I'm quoting Mr. Vickers) but everyone will polish, stone, tweak, and fiddle with their Glock or M&P (dropping $100's in the process) to attain a "good trigger" So again to me that argument is invalid as well. If you want to base it off the mechanics of the gun, well I hate to tell you but Glock y'all beat as they are a hell of a lot simpler internally. Keep It Simple Stupid still rings true when it comes to this. Part of why Glock is so popular is that just about any moron can work on one as they are so stupidly simple internally. You need an engineering degree to work on HK stuff as they are over engineered (not just HK but just about anything made by Germans)
So, I take it you don't like the VP9?
crusader377
12-11-15, 09:43
So, I take it you don't like the VP9?
I don't think anyone here has a dislike or hatred of the VP9. I enjoy M4C, because it is filled with many great shooters and experienced professional users. Recently however, from some members there has been an arrogance that if you don't have or favor a cool gun such as a HK VP9, Glock 19, or PPQ then you don't know anything about handguns. Then when a test came out which the VP9 had a poor showing with performance more similar to a "game gun", its fan boys relentlessly defended their pet pistol even though if a Springfield XD, S&W M&P, or any other less cool pistol had a similar performance those same fan boys would be trashing those pistols and claiming everyone needs to get a HK or Glock.
I think this is the takeaways from this thread:
1) There are probably at least 20 pistols that would work well for a defensive pistol for your civilian or law enforcement shooter and the best solution for one person isn't necessarily the best solution for another person.
2) If you are a civilian or LEO officer and like the HK VP9 there is absolutely no reason not to continue using it. I think it is still a very good home defense pistol or LEO pistol.
3) That said, in its current form, the HK VP9 is not a military grade firearm and would probably perform poorly in military selection trials which would be far more demanding than MAC's torture test.
I don't think anyone here has a dislike or hatred of the VP9. I enjoy M4C, because it is filled with many great shooters and experienced professional users. Recently however, from some members there has been an arrogance that if you don't have or favor a cool gun such as a HK VP9, Glock 19, or PPQ then you don't know anything about handguns. Then when a test came out which the VP9 had a poor showing with performance more similar to a "game gun", its fan boys relentlessly defended their pet pistol even though if a Springfield XD, S&W M&P, or any other less cool pistol had a similar performance those same fan boys would be trashing those pistols and claiming everyone needs to get a HK or Glock.
I think this is the takeaways from this thread:
1) There are probably at least 20 pistols that would work well for a defensive pistol for your civilian or law enforcement shooter and the best solution for one person isn't necessarily the best solution for another person.
2) If you are a civilian or LEO officer and like the HK VP9 there is absolutely no reason not to continue using it. I think it is still a very good home defense pistol or LEO pistol.
3) That said, in its current form, the HK VP9 is not a military grade firearm and would probably perform poorly in military selection trials which would be far more demanding than MAC's torture test.
Crusader377:
I understand what you're saying, My comment above was to rattle Got Uzi's chain a little, :p I know him personally, and that's all I was doing..
I agree and I have no hate on the VP9.
Crusader377-you hit the nail on the head with the point I was trying to make. I'm glad to see that there are other like minded people (few tho we may be) that can have a civil discussion based on the merits of something.
Lets take another thread on the forum for example-the NSW use of Glock 19's as their new sidearm. While yes I carry a MK25 and shoot it well (or at least try to) I'm not butt hurt that the Navy is going away from Sig in this case, nor defending the P226/MK25 to the last saying the NSW is wrong. It is what it is.
At the end of the day use what you want and realize that its just a tool for the job and if you see your favorite tool not fair too well in random testing, then plesae by all means don't get on an inner-web forum and become a "tool" yourself......
(please note that this comment was not directed at anyone person, but said as a generalized statement. If someone has taken offense to my comment the by all means check yourself in front of a mirror and slap yourself in the face as your parents raised a whining cry ass)
domestique
02-16-16, 05:01
There have been a couple recent youtube torture tests lately.
Here are the better ones.
https://youtu.be/eJr453erCAc
https://youtu.be/-4A_TbpHU1c
TheChunkNorris
02-16-16, 06:17
There have been a couple recent youtube torture tests lately.
Here are the better ones.
https://youtu.be/eJr453erCAc
https://youtu.be/-4A_TbpHU1c
"You can build 1000 bridges but F%&K one goat... you're not a bridge builder... your a goat F%&ker." - Unknown
People will hate just because it's the internet... we can show 100 torture vids here the VP9 succeeded and they'll refer to Mac's vid.
DreadPirateMoyer
02-16-16, 08:02
There have been a couple recent youtube torture tests lately.
Here are the better ones.
https://youtu.be/eJr453erCAc
https://youtu.be/-4A_TbpHU1c
These are great. I've also seen a few others like this. None showed the VP9 failing in either dirt or water. MAC's was the only one.
Well, I should say one did show the VP9 failing (I think it was posted on here), but it was a sandbucket controlled test that other guns failed in as well. None of the field tests showed major failures in the VP9.
Meanwhile, there are multiple torture tests similar to the above showing the Glock failing and passing in equal proportions to the VP9, yet somehow the Glock is good to go and the VP9 isn't. In fact, the second video above shows the Glock choking and the VP9 passing in the same conditions. Confirmation bias much?
Long story short: torture tests, especially with water and soil, aren't kind to guns, especially striker-fired guns. They are also very hard to control on a scientific, repeatable basis, so you'll see lots of success stories and even a few failure stories for literally all guns out there: Glocks, VP9s, and M&Ps included. Pick which works for you and move on. They're all fine.
AKs are probably more reliable than AR-15s if you throw them around like a careless idiot and bury them in the mud and don't follow basic firearm principles. I'd rather have an AR15.
Wow this video though, shocked at the G19s total fail.
http://youtu.be/-4A_TbpHU1c
I think it's funny people are surprised that a mechanical device can (and will fail) when you abuse it with various debris, sand, water, and such.
Primus Pilum
02-19-16, 16:14
As someone who thought he would never move away from glock, and who has shot them for the last 20 years, and has owned & shot just about every production pistol available in the USA:
The VP9 is hands down the greatest pistol I have ever shot. I like it better than my full house custom M&P's, broken in G17/G19/G26's, Better than my custom HP, custom 1911, Wilson 92G, USP's Or any of the CZ's, Rugers, 3rd gen smiths, XD's or anything I have owned in the past.
It is an absolute laser beam. I don't know if it is the barrel or the egro's/sights but I have never shot a pistol this accurate in my life, including my Wilson & Les Bauer.
Carries IWB well, feels great in the hands, has a ton of grip purchase, no safteys or controls to mess with, reloads are smooth. Still love my glocks but if I had to choose one, the VP9 would be it no question.
It's a stock $600 gun I would take over anything else if I had to go into harms way.
gtmtnbiker98
02-20-16, 04:06
How many war fighters in this thread can run a 5k on demand in under 30 min.? Most are likely to die from heart disease or obesity than the VP9's perceived combat worthiness, or lack thereof.
Is M4c really giving that much credibility to a YouTube Channel?
How many war fighters in this thread can run a 5k on demand in under 30 min.? Most are likely to die from heart disease or obesity than the VP9's perceived combat worthiness, or lack thereof.
Is M4c really giving that much credibility to a YouTube Channel?
That's only 3.1 miles. I was running a 2 mile in the Army for my PT test in 13 mins just last year. But I get what you are saying, the average Joe would be winded and hyperventilating 1/2-3/4 of mile in.
EzGoingKev
02-20-16, 08:34
VP9's are illegal to CCW in Florida, Will. Best to sell it and get yourself a G26/G19 combo.
Why are VP9's illegal to CCW in Florida?
Linebacker
02-20-16, 08:49
Why are VP9's illegal to CCW in Florida?
They are not. I have no idea why the poster thinks so. Actually, Florida has virtually no restrictions with what can be carried and cocealed...
"The Concealed Weapons Laws of The State of Florida:
Florida is unusual in that it allows many concealed weapons, not just handguns, to be legally carried with a license. Florida defines “concealed weapons” as handguns, electronic weapons or devices, tear gas guns, knives, and billie clubs. If a person is in possession of a concealed weapon, they must produce their concealed weapons license along with another valid identification upon the demand of a police officer."
https://www.uslawshield.com/florida-gun-law/
They are not. I have no idea why the poster thinks so. Actually, Florida has virtually no restrictions with what can be carried and cocealed...
"The Concealed Weapons Laws of The State of Florida:
Florida is unusual in that it allows many concealed weapons, not just handguns, to be legally carried with a license. Florida defines “concealed weapons” as handguns, electronic weapons or devices, tear gas guns, knives, and billie clubs. If a person is in possession of a concealed weapon, they must produce their concealed weapons license along with another valid identification upon the demand of a police officer."
https://www.uslawshield.com/florida-gun-law/
Sarcasm was lost over the errornet.
How many war fighters in this thread can run a 5k on demand in under 30 min.? Most are likely to die from heart disease or obesity than the VP9's perceived combat worthiness, or lack thereof.
Is M4c really giving that much credibility to a YouTube Channel?
While I wholeheartedly agree, in this application it's moot.
You want the reality of a gunfight? It's far closer to the side of getting living hell beat out of you before you get to your gun than it is pulling an AR from your trunk and suiting up in your plate carrier then saving the day.
I found myself on the ground in most force on force situations and real fights I've been in. The ground is usually where mud and crap is kept, so, if we're considering aspects of a gun I think one that fails at the slightest bit of crap added is a design issue that still effects fatties just as anyone else.
My 5k is under 30, my half marathon is right at 2hr. I think those are important but not in this specific VP9 case.
That's only 3.1 miles. I was running a 2 mile in the Army for my PT test in 13 mins just last year. But I get what you are saying, the average Joe would be winded and hyperventilating 1/2-3/4 of mile in.
Cool! Congrats, I don't know how old you are but that's rather fast. I can't run as much as I used to due to over used and abused middle age knees but I can row the rowing ergometer 5k in 19 minutes and 2 months ago did 10k in under 40 minutes. I have one pistol with about 20k rounds through it, a CZ 75, it isn't as accurate as it used to be and the mags are getting hard to find [it's a pre-B 75] and my supply is wearing out. HK mags are robust and few will ever get close to wearing out an HK pistol.
DreadPirateMoyer
02-20-16, 15:44
While I wholeheartedly agree, in this application it's moot.
You want the reality of a gunfight? It's far closer to the side of getting living hell beat out of you before you get to your gun than it is pulling an AR from your trunk and suiting up in your plate carrier then saving the day.
I found myself on the ground in most force on force situations and real fights I've been in. The ground is usually where mud and crap is kept, so, if we're considering aspects of a gun I think one that fails at the slightest bit of crap added is a design issue that still effects fatties just as anyone else.
My 5k is under 30, my half marathon is right at 2hr. I think those are important but not in this specific VP9 case.
You're definitely right and it's definitely something to consider, but in the meantime, no one has been able to corroborate MAC's results. Meanwhile, plenty of tests out there also show the VP9 succeeding and/or its competitors choking head-to-head in similar conditions. Heck, that video above shows the VP9 and M&P Shield powering through a situation where a Glock straight up died. I don't think that's a condemnation of Glocks, though. It's just a freak thing that can happen to any gun and he caught the Glock doing it like MAC caught the VP9. Dirt and mud just aren't kind to any gun.
Likely conclusion is all of these guns choke on dirt at roughly the same rate, are all of good quality, and that without doing hundreds of head-to-head tests, you'll continue to see videos where some guns fail (VP9, Glock, and M&P included, as seen in this thread) and succeed (same as the failure videos), as some will capture the 1% of failures on camera and others won't.
Ive been in the market for a much needed semi auto pistol for hd and such, for a good 6 months. i will admit when I initially saw this video a few months ago, I was pretty bummed for the vp and it led me to do endless internet forum commando searches on all the popular pistols out. Just to get opinions and trying to figure out what that one pistol that I bought was going to be.. and of course I know theres $hit tons of morons out there.. who will say that the gun they just bought is the "best gun they ever shot, Hands down!!"
But then I watched a lot of other videos of "torture tests" and figured out that any gun at, any time can fail.. Even the G19... Just watched one last night where the guy dipped a brand new LaVG19 into the river, started shooting it and the trigger completely stopped working.. I watched one where the guy kept repeatedly dunking his vp9 in muddy water and could not get a malf to occur through many mags full of ammo..
Could the Vp9 benefit from a closed off back plate on the slide? Ya maybe.. who knows..
I FINALLY Made my decision and just purchased a Vp9 LE brand new for 680.00 this morning. Last one.. Im stoked!
domestique
02-20-16, 17:07
You're definitely right and it's definitely something to consider, but in the meantime, no one has been able to corroborate MAC's results. Meanwhile, plenty of tests out there also show the VP9 succeeding and/or its competitors choking head-to-head in similar conditions. Heck, that video above shows the VP9 and M&P Shield powering through a situation where a Glock straight up died. I don't think that's a condemnation of Glocks, though. It's just a freak thing that can happen to any gun and he caught the Glock doing it like MAC caught the VP9. Dirt and mud just aren't kind to any gun.
Likely conclusion is all of these guns choke on dirt at roughly the same rate, are all of good quality, and that without doing hundreds of head-to-head tests, you'll continue to see videos where some guns fail (VP9, Glock, and M&P included, as seen in this thread) and succeed (same as the failure videos), as some will capture the 1% of failures on camera and others won't.
+1, that's why when I'm doing executive protection (i.e. daddy duty) I have my main carry gun, a weak side pocket pistol, and a blade.
SouthNarc/Shivworks ECQC class, is definitely something I've been meaning to do, and has been highly recommended by friends that have taken it.
All firearms may fail when friction is present within critical clearances. The VP9 I own has twice the parts of a Glock with tighter clearances along the trigger bar/disconnector. The failures which prevented the gun from firing were action failures and failures to go into battery. In my environment it is incredibly unlikely that I would find myself in similar conditions, but this study gave me pause. I'm curious if the rail extension is to mitigate the ease at which the pistol can be forced out of battery in a contact situation. Also, the grip and mag release issue would not have killed me.
Was this a blinded case control test with a large sample size? Of course not. It takes a huge organization such as a military to have the resources for a superior study. This test succeeded in showing the weaknesses of a specific VP9. It has given many owners something to consider.
Also, I kept asking myself how is Tim going to detail strip and clean the pistol easily without an hour to set aside? I can detail strip and clean a Glock in 5 minutes with a Qtip shaft snapped in half.
MountainRaven
04-18-16, 21:12
Tim throws his Sphinx in the mud. And it still works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuA-92-koYs
Per Tim (in this video), the chief reason he did the rest of the destructive testing was because the VP9 failed the first test. IOW, he wouldn't have been throwing it at the steel if it had passed. I think he might have been having a touch of TIM SMASH!
Not specific to MACs tests of any one handgun, but I don't understand why people get worked up over tests that have a sample size of 1.
A statistically insignificant event.
Not specific to MACs tests of any one handgun, but I don't understand why people get worked up over tests that have a sample size of 1.
A statistically insignificant event.
Because of emotions. And because they've read about HKs being indestructible, and here is proof that it too is a piece of engineering and magic, and thus fails at a certain point.
Is it me or have his videos been going downhill? Seems like he's turning into the "I shot a thousand rounds through my unlubed gun, so therefore it is indestructible."
I still watch his videos but I have been nitpicking them a lot lately. I mean the one today was a 16 minute ad for Challenge.
The VP test was kind of stupid. On one hand it's "I don't get sponsored and don't do reviews" but is quickly followed by "ya, based on my testing this gun is (no)good. I'm not saying you should/shouldn't carry it, but I do/don't."
Whatever, it's just entertainment and we're all still using Colt and Glock regardless if what is on them youtubes.
Phillygunguy
04-20-16, 05:45
Looking back, Mauser's "torture test" of the VP 9 is probably the best and most legit. He even offered his opinion on what he thought could improve the VP9
MAC just wanted to beat the gun to get views on YouTube. and maybe new subscribers and people to his business. I don't fault him for wanting to make money, but throwing a gun around was ridiculous. I'll keep my VP9
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Whatever, it's just entertainment and we're all still using Colt and Glock regardless if what is on them youtubes.
Remember, it's his business. He needs to make videos to make $$$$, or just be another LGS schmuck making minimum wage.
So he's gotta create drama, get views, likes, subscribers, etc - because if everything worked great, he wouldn't get a paycheck.
MountainRaven
04-20-16, 08:42
Remember, it's his business. He needs to make videos to make $$$$, or just be another LGS schmuck making minimum wage.
So he's gotta create drama, get views, likes, subscribers, etc - because if everything worked great, he wouldn't get a paycheck.
Curious:
Does this mean that Grant is just another LGS minimum wage schmuck?
Does this mean that we need more YouTube channels that are all sunshine and unicorn farts about every gun that goes through their hands? Are you saying that what's needed in this industry is yet another voice saying, "ERMAGERD, ALL DA GERNS SO ARSUM! BUY YOU A HIPURNT!"
I'm sure the YouTube channel helps draw business, but I really doubt he's drawing enough viewers to pay for his guns, ammo, stamps, gas, the construction of his own range, trips to Asia Minor and Israel, &c.
Phillygunguy
04-20-16, 09:05
Curious:
Does this mean that Grant is just another LGS minimum wage schmuck?
Does this mean that we need more YouTube channels that are all sunshine and unicorn farts about every gun that goes through their hands? Are you saying that what's needed in this industry is yet another voice saying, "ERMAGERD, ALL DA GERNS SO ARSUM! BUY YOU A HIPURNT!"
I'm sure the YouTube channel helps draw business, but I really doubt he's drawing enough viewers to pay for his guns, ammo, stamps, gas, the construction of his own range, trips to Asia Minor and Israel, &c.
Grant doesn't do YouTube videos of torture test where they could be biased against a firearms manufacture that is having financial troubles and potentially hurt their reputation
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MountainRaven
04-20-16, 09:19
Grant doesn't do YouTube videos
FIFY.
So anybody who posts a critical YouTube video of anybody is now potentially biased, but all the ERMAGERD, BUY YOU A HIPURNT! YouTube channels aren't?
Colt fail? Must be that you're biased against them! Glock fail? Must be you're biased against them!
Curious:
Does this mean that Grant is just another LGS minimum wage schmuck?
Does this mean that we need more YouTube channels that are all sunshine and unicorn farts about every gun that goes through their hands? Are you saying that what's needed in this industry is yet another voice saying, "ERMAGERD, ALL DA GERNS SO ARSUM! BUY YOU A HIPURNT!"
I'm sure the YouTube channel helps draw business, but I really doubt he's drawing enough viewers to pay for his guns, ammo, stamps, gas, the construction of his own range, trips to Asia Minor and Israel, &c.
Not sure what Grant has to do with it.
Youtube is obviously a big part of MACs business plan, that's just a fact. People watch, people subscribe = $$$. His FFL / business subsidizes the cost of "his" guns (bought at wholesale no doubt, then if not liked get sold as used / dealer demo / etc).
If he doesn't make videos, if he doesn't has something "new" to say, his channel gets stale. Of course it's in his best interest if there is "drama" or the one sample of the XYZ.
I don't care which gun he likes or doesn't like, or which example of 1 does well or doesn't.
Honestly it's amusing when ppl think "oh, this gun is great becasue XYZ likes / uses / shoots it!". People have so much emotion tied up into pieces of metal and polymer. And I don't own or plan to buy a VP or his flavor of the month Sphynix.
Phillygunguy
04-20-16, 09:49
[QUOTE=Fjallhrafn;2306307]FIFY.
So anybody who posts a critical YouTube video of anybody is now potentially biased, but all the ERMAGERD, BUY YOU A HIPURNT! YouTube channels aren't?
Colt fail? Must be that you're biased against them! Glock fail? Must be you're biased against them![/QUOTE
Deleted
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Wow, I'm shocked that we are still discussing this video.
Look the guy makes videos and a living off of them. As with EVERYTHING on the net you need to take it with a grain of salt.
I honestly thought the results were surprising, but then I turned my brain cells on and realized that the things he was doing were generally meaningless to the average urbanite. If the VP9 were marketed like the USP then it would be different.
I actually dumped my vp9 right before this. It was just a little to big for carry and the slide release bugged the crap out of me. I know I can change my grip, but why? It works with my other guns. I do not care that my mk25 does not lock back it is just a range gun. I also would wear the rear joint on my thumb out on the back of the frame. Gun shot great was accurate and trigger was good. But I could not get over the issues I had. Too many fish in the sea.
But this video to me is a good reason to not carry it. I do not see how this one is related to him making money. He has a custom Glock that he sells yet makes videos of how he will not carry one. I think it was simple. Gun got wet it would nit run. I am surrounded by lakes. Places in the country are flooding right now. Shit happens. I carry when I take my dogs out in the woods. I have had to get waist deep before because my dog went after a critter. There are a lot of coyotes back there and if I was carrying a gun that would have crapped out over some water I would be pissed. I hear crap all the time about guns needing to run being filled with dust or whatever other junk that gets in. Mine will be taking a swim long before dust is ever a issue where I am from.
DreadPirateMoyer
04-21-16, 10:45
I actually dumped my vp9 right before this. It was just a little to big for carry and the slide release bugged the crap out of me. I know I can change my grip, but why? It works with my other guns. I do not care that my mk25 does not lock back it is just a range gun. I also would wear the rear joint on my thumb out on the back of the frame. Gun shot great was accurate and trigger was good. But I could not get over the issues I had. Too many fish in the sea.
But this video to me is a good reason to not carry it. I do not see how this one is related to him making money. He has a custom Glock that he sells yet makes videos of how he will not carry one. I think it was simple. Gun got wet it would nit run. I am surrounded by lakes. Places in the country are flooding right now. Shit happens. I carry when I take my dogs out in the woods. I have had to get waist deep before because my dog went after a critter. There are a lot of coyotes back there and if I was carrying a gun that would have crapped out over some water I would be pissed. I hear crap all the time about guns needing to run being filled with dust or whatever other junk that gets in. Mine will be taking a swim long before dust is ever a issue where I am from.
Then you better not carry any handgun ever. All will fail in muddy water eventually. All have been recorded on YouTube as such.
MAC just happened to catch the VP9 failing one time when muddy water got inside. There are videos in this thread showing the same thing happening to Glocks, M&Ps, USPs, and others. I guarantee you I can find a Sig video of the same. Better not carry the Mk25 then.
Fact is, as has been stated many times in this thread, all guns have a chance of failing in muddy water. It's not a kind environment. Some videos will catch these failures and some won't. It'll be a crap shoot. MAC caught one of them. Some videos in this thread show Glocks choking in muddy water that a VP9 passes. Big whoop to all of it.
When any gun has a X%+ chance of failing in muddy water, single tests aren't going to tell us anything. They may catch those X%+ of failures or may not. You're playing roulette with gun failure. DILLIGAF.
Someone kill this thread.
Then you better not carry any handgun ever. All will fail in muddy water eventually. All have been recorded on YouTube as such.
MAC just happened to catch the VP9 failing one time when muddy water got inside. There are videos in this thread showing the same thing happening to Glocks, M&Ps, USPs, and others. I guarantee you I can find a Sig video of the same. Better not carry the Mk25 then.
Fact is, as has been stated many times in this thread, all guns have a chance of failing in muddy water. It's not a kind environment. Some videos will catch these failures and some won't. It'll be a crap shoot. MAC caught one of them. Some videos in this thread show Glocks choking in muddy water that a VP9 passes. Big whoop to all of it.
When any gun has a X%+ chance of failing in muddy water, single tests aren't going to tell us anything. They may catch those X%+ of failures or may not. You're playing roulette with gun failure. DILLIGAF.
Someone kill this thread.
For one it was dropped in a frikin puddle. If you read my post, I got rid of it before the video. I never said that a handgun had to survive a horrible mud bath. But simply being dunked, yeah that is crap. I believe he did it more than once also. Also said my mk25 was NOT a carry gun. I have no idea how you interpreted half the shit you did. I was simply stating that a gun should be able to survive just being dunked in water. I never said they had to survive being grinded and packed full of mud. I have seen far worse conditions where it took a lot more for other guns to fail. His test was not technical at all. Also was not tried with more then 1 gun. But, I agree with the premise that it should handle some water or dirt.
DreadPirateMoyer
04-21-16, 12:58
For one it was dropped in a frikin puddle. If you read my post, I got rid of it before the video. I never said that a handgun had to survive a horrible mud bath. But simply being dunked, yeah that is crap. I believe he did it more than once also. Also said my mk25 was NOT a carry gun. I have no idea how you interpreted half the shit you did. I was simply stating that a gun should be able to survive just being dunked in water. I never said they had to survive being grinded and packed full of mud. I have seen far worse conditions where it took a lot more for other guns to fail. His test was not technical at all. Also was not tried with more then 1 gun. But, I agree with the premise that it should handle some water or dirt.
I got all I said from your post.
1. You said you need your gun to survive water, but that wasn't MAC's test. He didn't just drop it in a puddle. He dropped it in a dirt and leaf-filled slop and then stepped on it twice. Repeat twenty times and you'll have twenty different results. His test was meaningless as any gun could fail that on any given day (as seen in other videos posted in this very thread with the VP9 and other guns, videos in which the VP9 does just fine and Glocks and other guns fail). You need way more tests and way more guns to confirm actual reliability rates.
2. You stated his video is good reason not to carry the VP9, which is bad logic for the above reason. Any gun can fail in a muddy water test. Catching that X% in action once isn't a reason to ditch the gun, because it's all chance. Determining a true reliability rate (VP9 is twice/three/four times as likely to fail as Glock/Sig/whatever) backed by robust evidence is where decisions should be made, not one-off torture tests conducted by ham-handed buffoons. We'll likely never have the former, but that doesn't validate the latter, which is exactly what you said.
3. Yes, you said your Mk25 isn't a purposed carry gun, but you better not ever consider carrying in a pinch. Or any gun. Because there are videos of all guns failing muddy water tests, and apparently that's your basis of evidence for not carrying a gun -- a one-off failed muddy water test caught on video.
4. The VP9 can handle being dunked in water. Multiple videos show that. It was the random crud that got in the gun that can lock up any gun that killed it in MAC's "test" video, again, a video you said justified not carrying the VP9. And that's why the gun never worked well the rest of the test: it got crud inside, despite him claiming it was just water. Anyone can see that.
That's where I got everything from.
Isn't H&K releasing maritime spring cups for the VP9? I know Glock did for their pistols, and I know Walther did for their PPQ Navy. If H&K did release these, and you were going to carry a VP9 in an area where it may get submerged, would you not install them on your pistol?
I didn't see MAC suggest that everyone sell their VP9 pistols, just that he didn't trust his, and sold his, because it failed his test. I don't see the issue with the video. I believe this is something that everyone who may get their pistol dunked in water should at least be aware of.
I wouldn't sell a VP9 because of a test like this, but I do find tests like these interesting, and I'd probably be more likely to test my own pistol in my own environment if I carried it around water.
TheChunkNorris
04-21-16, 15:39
For one it was dropped in a frikin puddle. If you read my post, I got rid of it before the video. I never said that a handgun had to survive a horrible mud bath. But simply being dunked, yeah that is crap. I believe he did it more than once also. Also said my mk25 was NOT a carry gun. I have no idea how you interpreted half the shit you did. I was simply stating that a gun should be able to survive just being dunked in water. I never said they had to survive being grinded and packed full of mud. I have seen far worse conditions where it took a lot more for other guns to fail. His test was not technical at all. Also was not tried with more then 1 gun. But, I agree with the premise that it should handle some water or dirt.
There's no 100% guarantee that any weapon will work after being dunked in water... yes even a Glock. There are TONS of vids of Glock failing in a simple dunk test as well and you don't know if it has the maritime cups installed or not. To me MAC is the Gallagher of the Youtube gun world and the fact that people would discredit ANY weapon system based on his idiotic test lends much to their flawed logic.
Phillygunguy
04-21-16, 15:44
Isn't H&K releasing maritime spring cups for the VP9? I know Glock did for their pistols, and I know Walther did for their PPQ Navy. If H&K did release these, and you were going to carry a VP9 in an area where it may get submerged, would you not install them on your pistol?
I didn't see MAC suggest that everyone sell their VP9 pistols, just that he didn't trust his, and sold his, because it failed his test. I don't see the issue with the video. I believe this is something that everyone who may get their pistol dunked in water should at least be aware of.
I wouldn't sell a VP9 because of a test like this, but I do find tests like these interesting, and I'd probably be more likely to test my own pistol in my own environment if I carried it around water.
I think that was a rumor
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I never used his logic for any of my decisions. He said it was why he did not want to carry it. Good reason for him. I Never said I take my guns out and drown them. I never said my gun has to pass a water test to carry it. I simply stated I would rather my gun be able to handle a dip in the pond then under severe dust conditions. Everyone has a reason why they do or do not carry a gun. I KNOW all guns will fail from too much debris. But not counting his test, I am saying that a gun should be able to handle being in some water. This is a ridiculous thread and I am irritated I involved myself. Sorry for stating my opinion.
TheChunkNorris
04-21-16, 17:04
I never used his logic for any of my decisions. He said it was why he did not want to carry it. Good reason for him. I Never said I take my guns out and drown them. I never said my gun has to pass a water test to carry it. I simply stated I would rather my gun be able to handle a dip in the pond then under severe dust conditions. Everyone has a reason why they do or do not carry a gun. I KNOW all guns will fail from too much debris. But not counting his test, I am saying that a gun should be able to handle being in some water.
You obviously did base it on that video because there are MANY vids in which the VP9 worked just find after being dumped in water.
kantstudien
04-21-16, 21:37
Anyways...
Has anyone tried to machine off the "indicator" on the firing pin and then fabricate a solid slide cover plate like on Glocks? Seems like that would solve a lot of problems?
MountainRaven
04-21-16, 21:46
Anyways...
Has anyone tried to machine off the "indicator" on the firing pin and then fabricate a solid slide cover plate like on Glocks? Seems like that would solve a lot of problems?
That might also introduce other problems, as it would reduce the mass of the striker/firing pin and may thereby induce light primer strikes.
And I'm sure it voids the pistol's warranty.
I do wonder why he (Tim@MAC) didn't try a P30/P2000 (expensive VP9-ish pistol that probably wouldn't fail his mud test) or a P-07 ("cheap" Sphinx), though.
I suppose I could ask him on the MAC Full30 channel or the MAC FB page.
There's no 100% guarantee that any weapon will work after being dunked in water... yes even a Glock. There are TONS of vids of Glock failing in a simple dunk test as well and you don't know if it has the maritime cups installed or not. To me MAC is the Gallagher of the Youtube gun world and the fact that people would discredit ANY weapon system based on his idiotic test lends much to their flawed logic.
LOL
Isn't H&K releasing maritime spring cups for the VP9? I know Glock did for their pistols, and I know Walther did for their PPQ Navy. If H&K did release these, and you were going to carry a VP9 in an area where it may get submerged, would you not install them on your pistol?
I haven't seen any new information, but if I remember it was an actual Maritime variant. There is a download on HKs site with mention of several models; SFP9-SF Special Forces, SFP9M Maritime, SFP9SD/SFP9SD-RD Red Dot.
In German
http://www.heckler-koch.com/no_cache/de/unternehmen/downloads.html?tx_z7simpledownloads%5Bdownload%5D=777
The "spring cups" in the VP9 are already glock-maritime-esqe.
39088
SFP9SD already materialized, I know that they work (very, very, very slowly) at SFP9SD-RD. Both "SD" versions are aimed at civilian market (base for compensated competition pistol), but Maritime version will be for service market. That means it will probably not happen until some frogman unit will order such beast.
Anyways...
Has anyone tried to machine off the "indicator" on the firing pin and then fabricate a solid slide cover plate like on Glocks? Seems like that would solve a lot of problems?
HK parts dot net has a no hole coverplate
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Enhanced-Slide-Cap-VP9-VP40-Black-367p17856.htm
Phillygunguy
05-07-16, 20:44
HK parts dot net has a no hole coverplate
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Enhanced-Slide-Cap-VP9-VP40-Black-367p17856.htm
Looks promising.
Two things concern me with the VP9 - the slide is EASY to push out of battery and I don't like the rear slide plate allowing one to use the firing pin as a loaded chamber indicator. The trigger bar spring bearing design could be more robust - it may be robust enough; I just don't like it.
The pistol is superb. It shoots exceedingly well or I shoot it exceedingly well; it carries superbly (actually better than the GLOCK 17 and 19 when I carry AIWB - think slide cross section here).
It's not total domination/church testimonial more accurate than the Glock nor am I tremendously quicker with tighter groups at speed but it is consistently, marginally better for me. So that's what I use.
There is at least one company making a slide back plate that closes the "loaded, cocked indicator hole"; what I want is a shorter firing pin and a rear plate that is no more obtrusive than the OEM one.
If the firing pin had less mass the firing pin spring would have to be stronger. This would increase the trigger pull which would not bother me because it's borderline for me as it is right now. It *might* be 5 lbs but it's more than likely less than that.
If I were asked to load my gear with ten other folks, start in Miami and we're walking to Northern California I'd wear the VP9. In my backpack would be a holstered Glock 19 and magazines. But then that would be the case if I carried anything other than a Glock. Stupid? I dunno. I think it speaks to my perception of how reliable, easy to maintain and access to replacement parts the Glock platform has. I've grown to love the Glock Gen4 (with a few mods) - even AFTER I have committed to the VP9.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Two things concern me with the VP9 - the slide is EASY to push out of battery [...] If the firing pin had less mass the firing pin spring would have to be stronger.
If firing pin spring would be stronger then it would be even easier to push slide out of battery. Because it is strong firing pin spring that makes it easy to push out of batter in first place.
Honestly I don't know why people have put so much credence in this YouTube video. I surprised this thread is still alive. I also don't get why people are trying to "fix" a perceived issue with a aftermarket part.
Like many have said, any gun can and will fail in a undpredictable manner when subjected to uncontrolled silly "torture" test. Glocks, Sigs, HKs, Berettas, etc.
The general consensus is that HK vp9s have been reliable and durable so far. Long-term high round count durability still has to be proven but honesty that has never been an issue with HKs.
Word has it that the vp9s did excellent in the dps trials. That is a legitimate picture of how these guns run.
Many agree that it seems that when HK actually comes out with a pistol that people have wanted HK to build, that the HK fanboys and the ocd9 people are the biggest detractors. It's really quite odd.
m1a_scoutguy
05-08-16, 21:07
Honestly I don't know why people have put so much credence in this YouTube video. I surprised this thread is still alive. I also don't get why people are trying to "fix" a perceived issue with a aftermarket part.
Like many have said, any gun can and will fail in a undpredictable manner when subjected to uncontrolled silly "torture" test. Glocks, Sigs, HKs, Berettas, etc.
The general consensus is that HK vp9s have been reliable and durable so far. Long-term high round count durability still has to be proven but honesty that has never been an issue with HKs.
Word has it that the vp9s did excellent in the dps trials. That is a legitimate picture of how these guns run.
Many agree that it seems that when HK actually comes out with a pistol that people have wanted HK to build, that the HK fanboys and the ocd9 people are the biggest detractors. It's really quite odd.
Well said ! I did some major WTFs watching the vid myself,,,like really who throws there pistol at a steel target ! :confused::confused:Anyways its a different gun but still a HK. If the P30 is good for over 90K I would hope/think the VP9 would be good for close to that or even 50K++ ! I like mine but will never subject it to what Mac did in the Vid,,its a pistol not a hammer lol,,I intend to shoot it and shoot it alot !! Is it the end all of all handguns,,probably not,but it is a pretty dam good one,,lets leave it at that !
You obviously did base it on that video because there are MANY vids in which the VP9 worked just find after being dumped in water.
What the **** are you talking about? In my first post on this I made it very clear I got rid of it before this video was made. What has happened to this site? Why does everyone assume they know what others are thinking or why they make there decisions? Ridiculous. I stand by my point of we all have reasons why we carry or do not carry certain guns. Or why certain climates or enviroments very much influence our decisions. No need to come on here and bad mouth people on why they do something their way. Not saying nor do I think this was a scientific or well thought out test. The Vp9 was the easiest shooting striker gun I have had. Anyone who tried it shot it very well, easily. Just was not what I needed.
TheChunkNorris
05-09-16, 04:47
What the **** are you talking about? In my first post on this I made it very clear I got rid of it before this video was made. What has happened to this site? Why does everyone assume they know what others are thinking or why they make there decisions? Ridiculous. I stand by my point of we all have reasons why we carry or do not carry certain guns. Or why certain climates or enviroments very much influence our decisions. No need to come on here and bad mouth people on why they do something their way. Not saying nor do I think this was a scientific or well thought out test. The Vp9 was the easiest shooting striker gun I have had. Anyone who tried it shot it very well, easily. Just was not what I needed.
I realized that after the fact but you were pretty adamant about how a VP9 should work after being dropped in a "puddle" of water. Dude it's the interwebz so relax.
MountainRaven
11-24-16, 21:21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhUZa_q20Os
So MAC now has a more scientific non-scientific battery of tests to run their pistols through and they decided to run a recent production VP9 Tactical through it, after noting that H&K has made changes to the recoil spring.
They also tested the original pistol with this same battery immediately prior to filming the above: Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMDMAEwjAeI).
Spoiler alert: The VP9s both fail.
Sadly this is three that have failed. I believe a pistol should be able to pass the first set of tests. The vp9 failed sadly. Placing it in sand or dirt should not choke it this badly. I have not missed mine and very much enjoy my less expensive and better shooting p07. I like the newer format for the tests. Not scientific but simple and to the point.
What I'd like to see is Mac do a test with both a VP9, and a G17 or G19, In his first "test"/temper tantrum, of the VP9, Mac mentioned that his g17 had passed the muddy water part of the test..Ok, let's see it..Mac you listening? Let's do both the VP9,and the G17, or 19, at the same time, and let's see how well they both do..
TheChunkNorris
11-25-16, 09:05
What I'd like to see is Mac do a test with both a VP9, and a G17 or G19, In his first "test"/temper tantrum, of the VP9, Mac mentioned that his g17 had passed the muddy water part of the test..Ok, let's see it..Mac you listening? Let's do both the VP9,and the G17, or 19, at the same time, and let's see how well they both do..
Agreed, I've been saying that since day one. I find it funny that he stated that HK "agreed" with him, ALL of HK factory Tactical pistols have heavier recoil springs because they're meant to be shot suppressed and not for these tests. With that said, this series of tests are way more reasonable. He pretty much replicated that test from a guy from HKpro.
MountainRaven
11-25-16, 10:37
He has put the G17 through the same test. When I get off of work, I'll link it up if someone hasn't beaten me to it.
What I'd like to see is Mac do a test with both a VP9, and a G17 or G19, In his first "test"/temper tantrum, of the VP9, Mac mentioned that his g17 had passed the muddy water part of the test..Ok, let's see it..Mac you listening? Let's do both the VP9,and the G17, or 19, at the same time, and let's see how well they both do..
There's always trade offs. If I understand correctly, the VP9 has more moving parts than a 17/19 and tighter tolerances. If that's true*, then it does not surprise me the HK would fail sooner under those testing conditions. I recall the maker of the original vid that got all this started commented the VP9 had been exceptionally reliable until it was dropped in mud etc. My take was, under the conditions most will use the VP9, an excellent choice. Perhaps under more rugged conditions, not the best choice for that use. For me, yet to drop any pistols in muddy water, throw it against trees, etc, and having found as he did, very reliable and accurate under the conditions I will use the pistol, GTG for me. A pistol that can be all things to all people all the time seems a unicorn to me.
* Please correct of wrong on those statements
There's a rear plate that can be bought for $30 that keeps the elements from getting in the striker channel. Wouldn't this reduce the chances of failures when dropped in dirt?
There's a rear plate that can be bought for $30 that keeps the elements from getting in the striker channel. Wouldn't this reduce the chances of failures when dropped in dirt?
It couldn't hurt, but by critically watching the entire video, there is a lot going on there to create the types of problems they encountered. The striker channel is not the only open area on the pistol.
Shit. I have one on the way. It'll be for fun and HD. I was considering carry too, but my 45c is filling that role so I guess no big deal.
The real test is...how many guys that carry and use the vp9 every day and get it dirty are actually having issues? I don't hear of many.
I can't help but feel that if this pistol didn't say "HK" on it, it would be denounced by members here as a not-ready-for-prime-time-hunk-o-shit. But, since it does say "HK" on it people try to flower up all the reasons why it's still a great pistol - "It won't likely see those conditions by most people carrying it...etc."
When people with sub par ARs try to justify their choice with that same line of reasoning they get chastised on here.
Nightstalker865
11-25-16, 12:07
What I'd like to see is Mac do a test with both a VP9, and a G17 or G19, In his first "test"/temper tantrum, of the VP9, Mac mentioned that his g17 had passed the muddy water part of the test..Ok, let's see it..Mac you listening? Let's do both the VP9,and the G17, or 19, at the same time, and let's see how well they both do..
He already did the G17 in the new testing procedure.
https://youtu.be/MYUz5jahjFs
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I can't help but feel that if this pistol didn't say "HK" on it, it would be denounced by members here as a not-ready-for-prime-time-hunk-o-shit. But, since it does say "HK" on it people try to flower up all the reasons why it's still a great pistol - "It won't likely see those conditions by most people carrying it...etc."
When people with sub par ARs try to justify their choice with that same line of reasoning they get chastised on here.
I think the fact that tons of ppl are shooting it with good results, proves your statement wrong. It won't be denounced based on one guys video. That's ridiculous.
crusader377
11-25-16, 12:32
I can't help but feel that if this pistol didn't say "HK" on it, it would be denounced by members here as a not-ready-for-prime-time-hunk-o-shit. But, since it does say "HK" on it people try to flower up all the reasons why it's still a great pistol - "It won't likely see those conditions by most people carrying it...etc."
When people with sub par ARs try to justify their choice with that same line of reasoning they get chastised on here.
I tend to agree with you. If we were talking about a Springfield XD, Ruger American, Beretta PX4 or any other of the uncool pistols, everyone would be slamming them rightfully so claiming it is not ready for prime time but the HK gets a pass with the VP9
I think the fact that tons of ppl are shooting it with good results, proves your statement wrong. It won't be denounced based on one guys video. That's ridiculous.
The guys with DPMS, Rock River, Del-Ton, etc. ARs use that same argumentation; "Tons of people own DPMS rifles that work just fine!"
I'm not trying to argue with you, just pointing out what I see as inconsistencies.
They definitely do use that. I've just noticed a lot of guys that know what they are doing, not having issues.
I'm not speaking from my own experience so ...Grain of salt. I have one on the way that was a gift. Hopefully mine turns out ok.
They definitely do use that. I've just noticed a lot of guys that know what they are doing, not having issues.
I'm not speaking from my own experience so ...Grain of salt. I have one on the way that was a gift. Hopefully mine turns out ok.
I hope you have good luck with it. I really wanted to like the VP9 had considered getting one several times in the past. It has great ergos and a great trigger.
I have a question, has HK ever said the vp9 was go to war HK reliable? He mentions in one of them about HK stating how the usp series are there bread and butter le/military pistols but say the Vp9 was more of a answer for the people. I got rid of mine before this, but still think it is a easy shooting gun. Mine ws reliable but I also never got the thing dirty. Is it really that big of a knock against it, if the company themselves do not endorse it as having full on HK military reliability standards? On a another forum this same discussion was going on. And yes the HK love turns into hate against all because it choked and it is macs fault. The thing choked and choked bad, multiple times. It has a crap load of moving parts and thingamajiggers under the slide. I would like to see a usp do this. I have a feeling it will do just fine.
The thing choked and choked bad, multiple times. It has a crap load of moving parts and thingamajiggers under the slide. I would like to see a usp do this. I have a feeling it will do just fine.
I tend to agree...think a USP of any version would chug right through this. I've got a Smith 5906...great gun and a pleasure to shoot but I would expect it would fail if dirty WAY before one of my Glocks. Too many small moving parts and tight tolerances. I'd expect a 1911 to cough just the same.
There's a fair amount of cops who get dirty enough this is a real world test. Not everything has to be Navy SEAL Delta operator level to get dirty.
tacticaldesire
11-25-16, 17:23
What I'd like to see is Mac do a test with both a VP9, and a G17 or G19, In his first "test"/temper tantrum, of the VP9, Mac mentioned that his g17 had passed the muddy water part of the test..Ok, let's see it..Mac you listening? Let's do both the VP9,and the G17, or 19, at the same time, and let's see how well they both do..
If you would actually look you can see that he already has done the G17 and a myriad of other handguns. He did exactly what people asked for after his first video and created a somewhat (not flawless but nothing is) scientific and standardized test and people are still finding things to bitch about. If this gun had Taurus Springfield or a Ruger stamped on the slide people would be writing it off as shit.
In pristine environments this gun is great, and for 99% of people those are the conditions it is going to be in (AKA range/CCW). It is also extremely shootable and has great ergos. But anyone who carries in environment where there is sand/mud/gunky shit these tests should at least give you pause. That's 3 different tests this gun has failed where others haven't and the results can be easily replicated. What made the gun choke wasn't terribly challenging. For most (even most here) this isn't a terribly realistic test. But there's also plenty of people out there where this is a real world test.
Furbyballer
11-25-16, 18:04
This test didn't keep me from picking one up for $450 from PSA today. I don't intend to drag it through the elements either. I just couldn't pass at that price.
MeanCarbine
11-25-16, 19:53
This test didn't keep me from picking one up for $450 from PSA today. I don't intend to drag it through the elements either. I just couldn't pass at that price.
Enjoy the ergos and trigger. Mine sits by my bedside.
hotrodder636
11-25-16, 20:54
It was sad to see these results as an HK VP9 owner. That said, I still enjoy and like mine. I will definitely keep it. It shoots well and is very accurate. It is a range gun and an HD gun. I rotate carry with it a G19 and a Shield. I carry in urban areas and even if I were to take a fall in the dirt, the likelihood of dirt and sand getting open the action to cause failures shown by MAC are unlikely due to holster and being covered by my shirt and pants.
People need to get over these tests. See what works for you, your circumstances are different than a YouTube video. YMMV.
Has he done a similar gauntlet test on the CZ P-07 or P-01? I'm thinking about picking one up. Right now I have two VP9s, and I'll probably sell one off.
If you would actually look you can see that he already has done the G17 and a myriad of other handguns. He did exactly what people asked for after his first video and created a somewhat (not flawless but nothing is) scientific and standardized test and people are still finding things to bitch about. If this gun had Taurus Springfield or a Ruger stamped on the slide people would be writing it off as shit.
In pristine environments this gun is great, and for 99% of people those are the conditions it is going to be in (AKA range/CCW). It is also extremely shootable and has great ergos. But anyone who carries in environment where there is sand/mud/gunky shit these tests should at least give you pause. That's 3 different tests this gun has failed where others haven't and the results can be easily replicated. What made the gun choke wasn't terribly challenging. For most (even most here) this isn't a terribly realistic test. But there's also plenty of people out there where this is a real world test.
I'm well aware that Mac has done a myrid of other handgun "tests". I want to see both the g17 and the vp9 done at the same time, with the same material on the same day, not have to look at a prior test done under possibly different conditions with possibly different material. Both at the same time. This elimintates any second guessing. I owned 2 VP9's (recently traded one for a CZ SP-01) and I agree it does make one pause when a seemingly small amount of exposure to dirt shut the pistol down and made a paperweight out of it. And while the VP9 has great ergos, HK got them wrong. By that I mean they made the grip just a little too long, and the slide a little too short. For me, it dosen't carry nearly as well as a G19. Size wise for a CCW, that's the standard to beat..
I get that it didn't do well in his tests, but I think people are putting way too much faith in one guys YouTube video series (I actually enjoy his content so it's not like I dislike the guy). How many people are dumping off their VP9's now because of these videos yet never had an issue with their sample to begin with? I have many thousands of rounds through mine and have yet to experience any issues. MAC also tested multiple Sigs and they too failed miserably (P226 Legion and Mk25 FWIW) and I don't see the internet imploding because MACs Sigs failed a test, and those are actual been there done that hammer fired pistols with years of service. His hipoint did better than many of the other handguns he's tested, yet I don't see people running out to buy one because of his test results.
ETA: If people are seriously dumping off their VP9's because of these videos then so be it. I'll buy them at discounted prices and run the piss out of them.
I wouldn't get too worked up about a well regarded tool failing a home brew test. I know there are specific ways you can make a Glock fail that a HK would pass and vice versa.
MountainRaven
11-26-16, 01:18
I'm well aware that Mac has done a myrid of other handgun "tests". I want to see both the g17 and the vp9 done at the same time, with the same material on the same day, not have to look at a prior test done under possibly different conditions with possibly different material. Both at the same time. This elimintates any second guessing. I owned 2 VP9's (recently traded one for a CZ SP-01) and I agree it does make one pause when a seemingly small amount of exposure to dirt shut the pistol down and made a paperweight out of it. And while the VP9 has great ergos, HK got them wrong. By that I mean they made the grip just a little too long, and the slide a little too short. For me, it dosen't carry nearly as well as a G19. Size wise for a CCW, that's the standard to beat..
The materials used are the same.
Coal Dragger
11-26-16, 01:42
Mine has been reliable so far, including a class held at a range that used to be a mica mine. Everything got covered in and ingested that weird glittery looking moon dust, and my VP9 ran just fine. By the end of class it was pretty dirty and had a good deal of that grit inside of the pistol and the magazines. Another shooter running a CZ SP01 had issues when the moon dust made his pistol magazines start hanging up the followers and he had to take the mags apart and clean them.
At this point I'm more concerned with practical testing, and for 99.999999999999% of realistic use scenarios including inclement weather or "dirty" conditions that I would be likely to encounter (or most of us for that matter) the VP9 will be extremely reliable, and shootable. The solid ergonomics, good mechanical accuracy, good sights, and very good trigger along with the excellent real world reliability far outweigh the mall ninja concerns of whether or not the pistol will work if you dunk it in a bucket full of silt and then throw it at armored steel plate and other nonsense. By that same "logic" we should all drive MRAP's because there is a .00000001% chance that we might need to survive an explosion while driving down to the convenience store to buy beef jerky, we'll just ignore the fact that the MRAP is absolutely awful at every other aspect of being a practical automobile.
Serious Account
11-26-16, 02:32
I don't buy it for a second that HK didn't perform similar environmental testings on the VP9 before mass producing them.
TheChunkNorris
11-26-16, 03:31
I have a question, has HK ever said the vp9 was go to war HK reliable? He mentions in one of them about HK stating how the usp series are there bread and butter le/military pistols but say the Vp9 was more of a answer for the people. I got rid of mine before this, but still think it is a easy shooting gun. Mine ws reliable but I also never got the thing dirty. Is it really that big of a knock against it, if the company themselves do not endorse it as having full on HK military reliability standards? On a another forum this same discussion was going on. And yes the HK love turns into hate against all because it choked and it is macs fault. The thing choked and choked bad, multiple times. It has a crap load of moving parts and thingamajiggers under the slide. I would like to see a usp do this. I have a feeling it will do just fine.
The P30 line was subjected to similar tests by HK. It's safe to assume the USP would pass all of those simply because it was based on the Mark 23... which would laugh at these "tests".
Too many balloon knots tied over this test. As we always used to say, it's a sample of one and this has gotten out of hand. When lots of guys see reliability issues with theirs, then we have a problem, not just one.
I guess I'm in the minority here. I like seeing these tests. Sure, the tests are each flawed in some way, and sometimes a little ridiculous. But so are the tests done by "professionals" and manufacturers. This is just more information available to us.
There is obviously a design weakness in the HK VP9. It's important to some, and not to others. But I think it's great someone brought it to light.
Joe Mamma
I don't buy it for a second that HK didn't perform similar environmental testings on the VP9 before mass producing them.
But then again, we don't really know if they did...
hotrodder636
11-26-16, 09:33
While I put no weight into these videos, they are entertaining to me.
With that said I would be very interested to see how a P30 and a USP perform. In fact I would like to see some tests of .45 platforms.
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The P30 line was subjected to similar tests by HK. It's safe to assume the USP would pass all of those simply because it was based on the Mark 23... which would laugh at these "tests".
While I put no weight into these videos, they are entertaining to me.
With that said I would be very interested to see how a P30 and a USP perform. In fact I would like to see some tests of .45 platforms.
These threads are even more entertaining than the videos.
jackblack73
11-26-16, 11:06
Too many balloon knots tied over this test. As we always used to say, it's a sample of one and this has gotten out of hand. When lots of guys see reliability issues with theirs, then we have a problem, not just one.
Actually, isn't it a sample of three?
Everyone I know that owns a VP9 has nothing but praise for it. Of course, they probably don't do any "adverse conditions" testing with theirs.
Actually, isn't it a sample of three?
Oh I thought he tested the same one 3 times. My apologies. Ok so, sample of 3 out of thousands. But in all honesty I'm sure most are doing that to their gun and why would they if it's for ccw, hd, range or gaming?
The materials used are the same.
I dont know the dirt could have changed...
But seriously I do not believe after looking around and talking to knowledgeable folks that HK has put the vp9 in the standards of the usp pistols. So to me that is a good thing. They built a striker fired pistol that on a lot of accounts is very very good. But they did not build it to get military contracts and be what most think a HK should be. That is not a knock against them. But maybe they know exactly whta the limitations are and what its intended use is? Not even Mac said this test should stop you from buying one. The dude has 3.
MountainRaven
11-26-16, 13:34
The P30 line was subjected to similar tests by HK. It's safe to assume the USP would pass all of those simply because it was based on the Mark 23... which would laugh at these "tests".
To be fair, both the Mk25 and the P226R Legion underperformed in these tests, too.
I dont know the dirt could have changed...
But seriously I do not believe after looking around and talking to knowledgeable folks that HK has put the vp9 in the standards of the usp pistols. So to me that is a good thing. They built a striker fired pistol that on a lot of accounts is very very good. But they did not build it to get military contracts and be what most think a HK should be. That is not a knock against them. But maybe they know exactly whta the limitations are and what its intended use is? Not even Mac said this test should stop you from buying one. The dude has 3.
In one of the earlier videos, Tim went over how he sources and "makes" the mud, sand, &c. for the tests. I don't recall exactly, but he's basically buying the sand in a certain grit from a hardware store, buying a particular type of dirt, and mixing a certain quantity of water by volume per unit of dirt to create the mud.
So not scientifically consistent, but as reasonably consistent as one can get without having the sort of budget and resources as an actual laboratory.
The only people who factually know the standards to which VP9 is designed, how it compares to USP or any other of their products - are H&K employees, who are bound by non-disclosure and confidentiality agreements. So to have pages of replies to a thread on H&K's testing protocols, standards and product positioning - and comments on how VP9 was not designed to perform equally to the USP or other products - is speculative at best.
Logically, H&K is chasing the same contracts as Glock, Sig and every other high quality, brand name manufacturer. There are no business reasons for them to engineer, manufacture and sell a product that fails to meet established industry-standard testing requirements, as doing so would tarnish their brand and diminish their long term company value.
In short, having shot my two VP9's since they first hit the market, with zero malfunctions or failures in over 5k rounds, leaves me comfortable in carrying one on a daily basis.
The fact that the guns are selling in the sub 500 dollar range, leads me to believe that the release of a compact model is near. Every purchase of a full size gun creates a customer who will be more likely to purchase another product from the same product family - i.e. the new compact, similarly to how many of the current owners purchased the FDE, Grey and Tactical variants. So a small margin hit on the current guns is a calculated tactic for securing loyalty sales from products in the pipeline.
What I'd like to see is Mac do a test with both a VP9, and a G17 or G19, In his first "test"/temper tantrum, of the VP9, Mac mentioned that his g17 had passed the muddy water part of the test..Ok, let's see it..Mac you listening? Let's do both the VP9,and the G17, or 19, at the same time, and let's see how well they both do..
The M&P9 did way better in all of the mud tests
I think it had a few misfires after being under water,
but I saw another video where it passed the same test no problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okqt1_GVW5s
MountainRaven
11-26-16, 16:06
The only people who factually know the standards to which VP9 is designed, how it compares to USP or any other of their products - are H&K employees, who are bound by non-disclosure and confidentiality agreements. So to have pages of replies to a thread on H&K's testing protocols, standards and product positioning - and comments on how VP9 was not designed to perform equally to the USP or other products - is speculative at best.
Logically, H&K is chasing the same contracts as Glock, Sig and every other high quality, brand name manufacturer. There are no business reasons for them to engineer, manufacture and sell a product that fails to meet established industry-standard testing requirements, as doing so would tarnish their brand and diminish their long term company value.
In short, having shot my two VP9's since they first hit the market, with zero malfunctions or failures in over 5k rounds, leaves me comfortable in carrying one on a daily basis.
The fact that the guns are selling in the sub 500 dollar range, leads me to believe that the release of a compact model is near. Every purchase of a full size gun creates a customer who will be more likely to purchase another product from the same product family - i.e. the new compact, similarly to how many of the current owners purchased the FDE, Grey and Tactical variants. So a small margin hit on the current guns is a calculated tactic for securing loyalty sales from products in the pipeline.
You would think that, but you would be wrong (http://pistol-training.com/articles/trust-no-one-an-insiders-perspective).
Walther 99 and Q, CZs, SP 2022, and keep it coming.
The only people who factually know the standards to which VP9 is designed, how it compares to USP or any other of their products - are H&K employees, who are bound by non-disclosure and confidentiality agreements. So to have pages of replies to a thread on H&K's testing protocols, standards and product positioning - and comments on how VP9 was not designed to perform equally to the USP or other products - is speculative at best.
Logically, H&K is chasing the same contracts as Glock, Sig and every other high quality, brand name manufacturer. There are no business reasons for them to engineer, manufacture and sell a product that fails to meet established industry-standard testing requirements, as doing so would tarnish their brand and diminish their long term company value.
In short, having shot my two VP9's since they first hit the market, with zero malfunctions or failures in over 5k rounds, leaves me comfortable in carrying one on a daily basis.
The fact that the guns are selling in the sub 500 dollar range, leads me to believe that the release of a compact model is near. Every purchase of a full size gun creates a customer who will be more likely to purchase another product from the same product family - i.e. the new compact, similarly to how many of the current owners purchased the FDE, Grey and Tactical variants. So a small margin hit on the current guns is a calculated tactic for securing loyalty sales from products in the pipeline.
Sorry but I disagree. Every manufacturer has a level of there own standards. I do not believe that hi point builds to a standard that HK does. They are manufactured differently from each company. I do not care who they are. I also believe that they have a level of what they think a product is capable of. Once again no one is saying it is a piece of shit. This does not tarnish HK. All this does is show a certain flaw in the vp9. Nothing is perfect. Nothing. Glocks choked for years. M&p had
Terrible triggers and shit accuracy. Sig has had plenty of flawed products. Look at the 1911 industry, you have every level of product. It happens, they built the vp9 for the people. And it is damn good at what it does. I may be speculating as you say. But until I see HK pimp the vp9 like they have the usp I feel like I am not completely wrong.
We all have opinions, this is mine. Thank god I live in a free state in the greatest country on this earth.
legumeofterror
11-27-16, 10:51
GI have actually has the fist thing he did where he through he gun in the puddle more than once. I have been out hiking and fallen in Florida's beautiful brown sand-water a few times crossing rivers and once having a kayak sink in brackish water which really ****ed it up. In all of those circumstance my CZ75 still functioned despite being sandy/wet and in the later case rusted. There was also a time where I went over the handlebars of my bike and landed smashing the gun/holster into the dirt. Stuff like that can happen.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/LegumeOfTerror/Econ%20River/IMG_3749.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/LegumeOfTerror/media/Econ%20River/IMG_3749.jpg.html)
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/LegumeOfTerror/Year%20End%202011/DSC01535.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/LegumeOfTerror/media/Year%20End%202011/DSC01535.jpg.html)
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/LegumeOfTerror/RUST/DSC01573.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/LegumeOfTerror/media/RUST/DSC01573.jpg.html)
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/LegumeOfTerror/RUST/DSC01579.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/LegumeOfTerror/media/RUST/DSC01579.jpg.html)
In the more repeatable test, MAC's VP9 fared better than the P226 Legion and M&P9. Even the MK25 failed miserably. Glock 17 fared well, of course.
A stiffer RSA is the most likely fix for the VP9.
In the more repeatable test, MAC's VP9 fared better than the P226 Legion and M&P9. Even the MK25 failed miserably. Glock 17 fared well, of course.
A stiffer RSA is the most likely fix for the VP9.
He repeated it with a stiffer RSA. No dice. From a mechanical standpoint there are two problems with the VP. The first is fully cocked design. This means when the gun is in battery, the force of the "main spring" as HK calls it (more properly the striker spring), is actually opposing the recoil spring. This is what makes it so easy to push the slide out of battery.
This design leads to a second problem. For the slide to go into battery, the striker must be cocked. If the striker cannot be cocked due to dust of debris in the striker channel, the gun will not go into battery (this is the most commonly reported problem). Therefore, the open striker channel is very problematic for this design. A half-cocked design like a Glock would perform better in this regard, though it would come at the cost of a worse trigger.
The first problem cannot be fixed. The second problem can. HKparts has a closed slide plate available. This would help, but not completely alievate the problems with the design. A stronger recoil spring helps in theory, but in practice gave no benefit.
Both together will probably be the best choice. I have both, but I'm not going to purposefully abuse my VP9.
He repeated it with a stiffer RSA. No dice. From a mechanical standpoint there are two problems with the VP. The first is fully cocked design. This means when the gun is in battery, the force of the "main spring" as HK calls it (more properly the striker spring), is actually opposing the recoil spring. This is what makes it so easy to push the slide out of battery.
This design leads to a second problem. For the slide to go into battery, the striker must be cocked. If the striker cannot be cocked due to dust of debris in the striker channel, the gun will not go into battery (this is the most commonly reported problem). Therefore, the open striker channel is very problematic for this design. A half-cocked design like a Glock would perform better in this regard, though it would come at the cost of a worse trigger.
The first problem cannot be fixed. The second problem can. HKparts has a closed slide plate available. This would help, but not completely alievate the problems with the design. A stronger recoil spring helps in theory, but in practice gave no benefit.
Both together will probably be the best choice. I have both, but I'm not going to purposefully abuse my VP9.
That makes sense. Is there an aftermarket RSA, or did you use a VP40 RSA?
Serious Account
11-27-16, 18:31
But then again, we don't really know if they did...
HK briefly showed that they conducted testing on the VP9 in one of their promotional video
At 50- 53 second mark. Or at least it looks like a VP9 to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZL8H_UGQqE
HK briefly showed that they conducted testing on the VP9 in one of their promotional video
At 50- 53 second mark. Or at least it looks like a VP9 to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZL8H_UGQqE
Looks like a good promo video. But I did not see any Indiana dirt or sand lmao.
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