H&K VP9/40 and USP water, clay and mud test. Update page 3 (Retest)!

[Mauser KAR98K]

I am going to start this off with a few disclaimers.

One, I'm an H&K fanboy. But, I do like (love) all other handguns and rifles out there in the world. I have mass respect for Glock, Sig, FN, and some for the XD. I choose H&K as I have more confidence in their accuracy and longevity.

Two, some parts of the video (if I can get it posted) seems I'm doing some unsafe gun handling. There are instances that I have caught in my rush to get this done, and others it is an optical illusion due to the small camera. Also, excuse my heavy breathing; my sinuses have not been kind to me.

And so....

Dear H&K,

This experiment/test is in response to Tim's (Military Arsm Channel) video of his "torture test" of his H&K VP9. The throwing against AR500 steel targets wasn't what prompted this test but due to his VP9 not working when thrown in a puddle of water, and also coated with mud.

For a quick summary, my results mirror MAC's, except with the pistol fully submerged in water. All pistols passed in the basic water test.

Three VP series pistols were used in this experiment: Two VP9's and a VP40. The USP9 is to have a hammer fired weapon subject to the same tests. One VP9 was established as the control. It would be cleaned and lubed before and after every test. Same for the USP9. The VP9 LE (second VP) has had over 500 rounds through it without a cleaning or a lube and was never serviced through the test, along with the VP40. A bore snake would be used to clear obstructions in the barrel or the chamber.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5681/23579094275_997995a7fa_b.jpg

Water Submersion:

All pistols were fired with five shots each. All worked without malfunctions. A bucket was used with the water free from particulate matter.

VP9 LE after water test.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/575/23283351600_7d238a5f36_b.jpg

USP9 after water test.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5720/23470543192_53505c4925_b.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/718/23211149159_00092fb1ba_b.jpg

Clay test:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/722/23553004566_7431ed1087_b.jpg

We have had a lot of rain and moisture here in Tennessee (and I missed most of it on the road) so, any fine sand I could use is just not there. So I'm used damp clay. Each pistol was placed in the pale to be pressed into the clay and have clay thrown on it. I actually threw some into empty mag wells (excluding the VP9 LE), plus pushed the pistol forward on the muzzle with the ejection port down into the clay.

VP9 LE: It actually functioned all 10 rounds used without a malfunction except to push the pistol in battery.

VP9 Control: This is were things go tango-uniform. I actually dumped clay into the mag well. The Control VP9 would not fully seat into battery, and locked up when I had tried to tap it into battery. it took the edge of the picnic table to open the slide. Ran the boresnake down the barrel to free any obstructions but it still would not close into battery. It took it being dumped into water to able to go into battery to fire, but still would have a hard time to close into battery. The last few shots did not need a tap to seat. Trigger worked well but was heavy and gritty.

VP40: Ran well under the same conditions with only having to be tapped back into battery once.

USP9: Suffered from the same problem as the control VP9. It failed to fully seat into battery and I had to use the edge of the table to force the slide open (jammed shut). Once I got it opened and cycled the slide, I loaded the magazine in and it fired what was left in the magazine without issue.

Mud test, 10 shots: I dumped a pale of water into the bucket with the clay. Not only did I have a cement type mix of the clay, but I had fine particulate matter mixed in with the water. This produced malfunctions to ALL PISTOLS. I'm very curious that if I had a Glock it would have also malfunctioned in some capacity.

VP9 Control: Would not seat into battery, nor once it was seated in, it would not fire. Just to pull back the slide was incredibly rough. You could hear the mud and grit as the slide was cycled by hand.

The trigger would release the firing pin, but I kept getting very light primer strikes. NO ROUNDS WERE ABLE TO BE FIRED.

VP9 LE: Same issues as the control VP9. It wasn't until I "rinsed" the pistol off with the muddy water in the pale that once seated into battery it would fire; 6 shots with a tap on the slide every time to seat into battery. The slide was very gritty, and the trigger pull weight was a dramatic increase.

VP40: Exact same experience, including a muddy water rinse, as the VP9 LE. Would not cycle into battery or fire until the rinse. Once it fired, it still had to be tap to be placed into battery.

USP9: Here is where a hammer fired gun shines. It would cycle and seat into battery. Fired on the first trigger pull. But it would have a failure to eject everytime with the brass casing being jammed sideways against the slide and breach. The slide was also rough to manually pull back (wish it had those charging supports) and the trigger did not increase in pull weight but it was noticeable grittier.

Water submerge retest: VP9 control and USP9: Both pistols were not cleaned but submerged in clean water.

VP9 Control: Failed to go into batter, was tapped in, but failure to fire (light primer strike). Once cycled and again tapped into battery, it did fire, but still malfunctioned with either a failure to feed or was out of battery.

USP9: Fired five shots without any malfunctions.

VP9 Control After Cleaning: Pistol, after it was cleaned, fired all five shots without malfunction. Still had a gritty trigger pull but the weight was close to its normal pull. Slightly heavier.

Conclusion:

It is not so much as the trigger mechanism but the the firing pin channel and spring that is causing the failure to fire. I believe the firing pin spring is too light, and with the opening at the back of the pistol with the firing pin exposed, water mixed with grit is causing the failure to fire. It seems once the the channel is cleared to a degree, the VP9 will fire, but will need to be tapped into battery.

The out of battery issue is a combination of the dirt and grit creating more friction at the slide rails. Compound this to the light recoil spring and problem seems to compound itself. It seemed with the VP40 and the heavier recoil, the slide was able to go into battery much easier when fired.

The USP suffered from the same out of battery and lock up do to the foreign matter clogging the action. Once I was able to push the slide ope and manually cycle it, though, it was able to fire in both the clay and mud tests, but it experience failure to eject multiple times. It did, however, fire on every trigger pull, and the trigger pull weight never increased.

The VP series of pistols are a fine pistol for that many were waiting impatiently for H&K to make. The trigger pull is probably the best on the market for a production, stock, gun. The interchangeable grip panels makes the pistol very costumizable for almost any shooter to run. Where the pistol fails, however, is that it is over engineered with too many safety features or user friendly ideas that are hampering the pistol in adverse conditions. The opening to view the firing pin at the back of the pistol is the most glaring of these problems. I would also venture to say the firing pin spring is also to light.

With that said, even the looser USP failed in some fashion as well. This test should show that probably even other pistols, including Glock would have had an issue with the clay and mud tests. Getting that much dirt and mud jammed into the weapon will cause anything to have out of battery issues.

The one thing that did not fail through all these tests: H&K magazines. not one failure was solely attributed to the magazines. I did have failure to feed issues with half way loaded rounds, but once the slide was gently pulled back, the round righted it self and the slide was easily closed. H&K magazines are probably far better than i think most give them credit for. fifteen rounds seems low compared to the Glock 17's capacity, but H&K engineer for their mags to work and work over long periods of time. These test prove that.

Last observation: With all this said, I would still carry the VP9 as an everyday carry weapon. The accuracy, ergonomics and trigger are its biggest selling points, and I shoot the VP9 better than most any pistol I have fired. One the same token, however, I my EDC carry piece and overall sidearm with still remain the USP series. The reliability is unquestionable, and even with the malfunctions that it did have, it took a lot less time and headache to the get it back up and running, even if I still had to cycle the action to chamber a new round. The looser tolerances and the hammer fired action increases USP's durability and reliability that it will fire and some point when needed. So, I still trust my USP over the anything else.

What H&K should do is close the hole, and figure out how to place a heaver recoil spring to aid in it's cycling. Once this is done, the VP9 should keep pace with Glock and other striker fire manufactures. The VP9 has been a run away success, but H&K does not need to have this thing go belly up in the conditions it was tested in, causing the company's financial woes to get far worse. The improvements on the VP series, and also trigger modifications on their other lines would be better for H&K in the long run.

ETA: The sand and mud wore some of the finish off of my barrels.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/694/23470473562_945066a840_b.jpg

Pistols after all tests, not cleaned.

VP9 Control.
]https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5640/22951958943_469879c64c_b.jpg

VP9 LE

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/608/23552964116_8116a1381f_b.jpg

VP40

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/737/23496619491_183f5f8b0b_b.jpg

USP9

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/699/23211104309_d422f37f04_b.jpg

Ammo used was Perfekta 115 gr 9mm, and Blazer Brass 180gr .40S&W.

Here is the video:


http://youtu.be/79JHYiaQlE4

(This was also posted on HKPRO).

[montrala]

Note to self: do not dump clay or mud into empty magazine well and then force it into action by inserting!

Now seriously. Results do not surprise me. Or actually surprise that you managed to get any shots out of pistols packed with clay or mud. When we see any manufacturers test of any pistol, they are put to sand or mud or clay with magazine in place and slide in battery. And in most cases this is what user can expect - loaded gun will fall to ground, might have some dirts/mud/sand/clay kicked over it, then it is picked up an shot.

Anyway, I see positive point of such tests. Shows what not to expect. Where is a limit. And one good things - whatever you will pack into your HK it most probably will not blow up in you hand. That is also good to know ;)

[Mauser KAR98K]

Note to self: do not dump clay or mud into empty magazine well and then force it into action by inserting!

Now seriously. Results do not surprise me. Or actually surprise that you managed to get any shots out of pistols packed with clay or mud. When we see any manufacturers test of any pistol, they are put to sand or mud or clay with magazine in place and slide in battery. And in most cases this is what user can expect - loaded gun will fall to ground, might have some dirts/mud/sand/clay kicked over it, then it is picked up an shot.

Anyway, I see positive point of such tests. Shows what not to expect. Where is a limit. And one good things - whatever you will pack into your HK it most probably will not blow up in you hand. That is also good to know ;)

Yeah, I'm regretting I didn't insert magazines into the pistols for the clay/mud tests. However, the mud test did mirror MAC's results with the gritty triggers, though I didn't really experience "dead triggers" much less very light primer strikes.

Update: Video added.

[MountainRaven]

IMHO, if it stops a USP it will probably stop a Glock.

[Joe Mamma]

Mauser KAR98K, thank you for doing this test, and for the thorough write up and analysis (and the pics and video). This is very informative.

Joe Mamma

[WatchTheWorldBern]

Really appreciate you doing this. Good writeup.

[w3453l]

I'm curious, as I have a P2000 but no USP, would it be reasonable to expect a P2000 to operate just as a USPc would in identical conditions? I have heard more than once that USPc's and P2000's share the same internals.

[Mjolnir]

I'm curious, as I have a P2000 but no USP, would it be reasonable to expect a P2000 to operate just as a USPc would in identical conditions? I have heard more than once that USPc's and P2000's share the same internals.

Fair assumption.

I would not argue strongly against that assumption at all.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[montrala]

I have heard more than once that USPc's and P2000's share the same internals.

Yes, they do to some extent. Have same operating system and same magazines, but slightly different trigger action (similar concept, but parts do not exchange).

However in test it was USP (full size). It shares same trigger group with USP Compact, but have different operating system (use 3 stage, floating recoil assembly) and different magazines (polymer body, different dimensions).

What this means to reliability when packed up with mud, I can't tell. But there might be slight difference. USPf for sure is reliable pistol. One guy, who a the time I met him, was working by most of the time laying or crawling in dirt, mud and sand said that USP is only pistol he depend on to go bang when he reaches for it in this condition. But he had it in holster on his hip and did not try to actually pack it full with stuff. Back home, he much preferred Glock.

[TheChunkNorris]

I like this right up the most so far.

[Mjolnir]

Anyone remember the Maritime Firing Pin/Striker cups for GLOCK?

If surface tension of water in the firing pin channel is slowing the striker's progress significantly then MAYBE the answer is something along those lines - and dumping the open/exposed rear of the firing pin and effectively closing the rear of the slide to debris.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[montrala]

I do. Mentioned them here and there already. As well as Walther PPQ Navy as well as HK plans to make SFP9M ("maritime") version with increased underwater reliability.

Problem with strike fired pistols and water is that fluid do not compress well. It is like you would use hammer to push nail into wood (striker fired) versus actually "hammering" it into wood (hammer fired). Yes, hammer will also loose some energy to overcome water resistance, but all of the rest is delivered to firing pin practically instantly. Plus firing pin in hammer fired pistols have less hydrodynamic drag inside it's channel (those Glock cups are designed to reduce this drag).

[Mauser KAR98K]

Thing is in my experiment, either with the pistol fully submerged in water, they still fired all five shots without issue. Even the trigger pulls were not affected.

I believe where MAC's VP9 failed was when stepped on it in the creek and sediment got into the firing pin channel. My mud test was like a merry lake/creek bed.

I'm going to, when I get back home, do another mud test but with my VP40 and tapping off the end plate. This time I will have a mag inserted.

[WatchTheWorldBern]

I'm going to, when I get back home, do another mud test but with my VP40 and tapping off the end plate. This time I will have a mag inserted.
Do you mean taping off the end plate? I think that's a good idea. And if you haven't cleaned up the other guns yet, maybe do a control run with them (so, taped, untaped, etc)? I appreciate you bringing some more rigor to whole stress test thing.

[Mauser KAR98K]

Do you mean taping off the end plate? I think that's a good idea. And if you haven't cleaned up the other guns yet, maybe do a control run with them (so, taped, untaped, etc)? I appreciate you bringing some more rigor to whole stress test thing.

Yep, gonna see how well gorilla tape holds up. I have a feeling, though, the VP will still have issues.

[DreadPirateMoyer]

This is a great thread. Two things I'd like to see, and not as criticism but just as points of further research:

1. Test with mags inserted. I think dumping dirt directly into the action through the mag well would kill any gun: Mk23, PPQ, or anything else.

2. Performed with a Glock. I think the same test would kill a Glock too.

My theory at this point is that the striker spring is too light for hard, military-style use, and the exposed striker channel at the rear is a weak point. I also think the recoil spring is too light as well since even without dirt, the gun can sometimes be pushed out of battery. I think this goes to what Montrala was saying: it's a police gun with a nice competition trigger, which required some compromises on spring strength just like most trick triggers (Glock comp triggers included). Excited to see what the SFP9SD will bring if it happens.

I especially like taping off the exposed striker channel, by the way. Good way to eliminate that variable. I'd suggest doing this separately than the closed magwell test, though, so you're not introducing two different variables into the test at the same time.

Looks like I'll stick with hammer guns for extreme scenarios, though, as I think in general, they're better equipped for rough conditions, especially DAO which will protect the firing pin from gunk at the rear. P30 LEM AHOY!

[WillBrink]

Just awesome tests and write up OP. Taking the time and energy to expose those fine guns to that abuse is all win. The summary statement:

"What H&K should do is close the hole, and figure out how to place a heaver recoil spring to aid in it's cycling. Once this is done, the VP9 should keep pace with Glock and other striker fire manufactures. The VP9 has been a run away success, but H&K does not need to have this thing go belly up in the conditions it was tested in, causing the company's financial woes..."

HK supposedly not known for it's humility or willingness to take advice/feedback, I hope they pay attention to your to their benefit and ours. It seems, as you and others indicate, with some fairly minor changes, the VP9 should be a winner in less than perfect conditions for which seems to be weak point currently, bno doubt they can design and cover that hole and improve on recoil spring force.

[WatchTheWorldBern]

The extractor is what functions as a chamber indicator, no? Do any states require a cocking indicator?

[TheChunkNorris]

The extractor is what functions as a chamber indicator, no? Do any states require a cocking indicator?

The USP has the red extractor indicator.

[Mauser KAR98K]

I will be subjecting an M&P9 to the test.

[WatchTheWorldBern]

The USP has the red extractor indicator.

I have a VP9. It has the same feature.


I will be subjecting an M&P9 to the test.

If you're going to keep going with this, do you have a Glock 19 you can add to the mix? Considering how much it comes up as the benchmark, I'd love to see that tested.

[TheChunkNorris]

I have a VP9. It has the same feature.



If you're going to keep going with this, do you have a Glock 19 you can add to the mix? Considering how much it comes up as the benchmark, I'd love to see that tested.

Hmmm I have one too and mine doesn't have it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WillBrink]

Hmmm I have one too and mine doesn't have it?



You sure? It's very small and just a tiny bit of red paint on the extractor. It's just silly really. I'm not clear what the chamber indicator is really there for unless just an additional "safety" feature?

[tb-av]

This is a great thread. Two things I'd like to see, and not as criticism but just as points of further research:

1. Test with mags inserted. I think dumping dirt directly into the action through the mag well would kill any gun: Mk23, PPQ, or anything else.


Yes, put some dummy rounds in and test the gun like it would actually be carried. Granted you could lose a mag and the slide could cycle back and then get packed with dirt but these test that pack dirt into an open slide just don't seem realistic. It seems like to me from the videos I have seen It's not the dirt. It's not the water. It's the muddy/slurry combination. That video I posted the guy was just packing his vp9 with dirt and for the most worked. But everyone that has made sand/mud slurry it seems to fail.

[TheChunkNorris]

You sure? It's very small and just a tiny bit of red paint on the extractor. It's just silly really. I'm not clear what the chamber indicator is really there for unless just an additional "safety" feature?

Almost positive mine doesn't. The only red on mine is the little indicator on the back and I can't see mine for another 7 months to confirm it either.

[tb-av]

Its supposed to have red on the extractor. Maybe yours got worn off?

[WatchTheWorldBern]

Mine is still NIB because I never shot it, which is probably why it's still there. It's just a tiny bevel cut on the leading top edge of the extractor with a little red paint on it, and I can see that getting worn off or covered in carbon fairly easily if you use the thing. I'm pretty sure these types of safety features are just there to meet bureaucratic requirements in certain jurisdictions. This one doesn't hurt anything, but I doubt anyone really uses it either.

36441

[Mauser KAR98K]

I have a VP9. It has the same feature.



If you're going to keep going with this, do you have a Glock 19 you can add to the mix? Considering how much it comes up as the benchmark, I'd love to see that tested.

Nope. Do not. Last Glock, and only Glock, I had was a G22. I've pretty much gone to one plateform, though I still have an M&P9 I let my neighbor borrow when I'm on the road so he can do checks on my house with a weapon that isn't his single action .22.

[Mauser KAR98K]

Mud retest. CHECK BACK FOR VIDEO AT THE BOTTOM!

As requested with new variables, i conducted a retest with the soapy, muddy viscosity as the first test, but this time I did my best to "close" the hole in the end plate of the VP9 and VP40, leaving it open on the control VP9. I also ran an S&W M&P9 through the test, and retested the USP9. I also closed up the magazine well for the first initial tests.

My hypothesis has been that closing the end plate would keep sediment out of the firing pin channel and allow the firing pin to function normally and get a full strike on the primer. This hypothesis had mixed results, along with new observations from the last test. Introducing the M&P9 was to get another pistol with a closed back to help in this hypothesis, and to a large degree it did. The M&P9 also seemed "looser" in its design which would (should have) naturally aided in it functioning after being dumped in mud...

For a very quick conclusion: mud just plan sucks.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5802/23629919691_f47ff1798e_k.jpg

Function test. All pistols (The USP was not used) function normally.

VP9 with VP40 Spring.

Ran a clean VP9 with the VP40 spring using 115gr Perfecta ammo. Ran 5 rounds through it without any issue. Springs were replaced back into their perspective pistols.

Mud Test. In order of subject tested: VP9 Control, VP9, VP40, M&P9.

Each weapon had a magazine inserted. I changed the variable with loaded weapons in mud with VP40. The control VP9 had an empty magazine inserted with the end plate uncovered. All VPs after that had their end plates covered.

VP9 Control: The control pistol had the same failure to fire with light primer strikes as had been observed with the last mud/sediment test. After "rinsing" the slide portion in the muddy water, it actually fire after that, even almost fully functioning without having to be tapped into batter for five rounds.

VP9 with end plate covered: Sadly, and after placing the right magazine in, I still had failure to fire. After, again, rinsing the pistol's slide in the muddy water, it was able to fire, but it would not completely function, causing failures to eject, and failure to feed.

The last 3 rounds, however, were able to fire and function the weapon to "normal" operation. I'm confident the pistol would have fired more rounds at the juncture.

VP40 with end plate covered, round chambered: The VP40 functioned better than the two VP9s. It fired all 10 rounds. It did not, however, function 100%. It seemed with every round fired the slide would fail to cycle completely, causing failure to ejects and failure to feed, along with failures to go into battery.

S&W M&P9: The M&P9 functioned and fired almost all rounds without issue until the end of the 10 round string. It seems the M&P9 started to malfunction AFTER it had shot a number or rounds, causing failure to ejects and failure to feed. The brass ejection pattern is very evident ion the video. The trigger also got increasingly heavy to the point it felt it was not going to fire.

VP9 with VP40 main spring, mud test. Loaded with rear plate covered: Aside from the magazine failure, this test was enlightening and strengthens my observation of how the VP9 should be improved. The pistol fired after the first time after coming out of the mud. The slide also function and did go into completely batter, but a round failed to get picked up.

After going to a fresh magazine, the test was redone with another dunk in the mud and the end plate covered. It fired on the first round again. It also had problems fully functioning with failure to ejects and feed. The slide was not completely going to the rear due to the sediment inside the rails. I will also add the the VP40 spring was causing it to probably not function completely.

What the VP40 spring did allow was when I fixed the malfunction, the slide had a better positive lock-up and really did not require me to tap the pistol back into battery.

I rinsed the pistol with water and fired 7 rounds after. The pistol did not have any malfunctions and went into battery without issue.

USP9 mud retest with inserted magazine: Fired 15 rounds without issue!

M&P9 retest. 5 rounds: The pistol was able to fire two rounds, but failed in cycling soon after, including not going into battery. It seemed that the more rounds the M&P fired the worse it became.

Conclusions:

I'm now wishing I had a Glock, and even Sig P226 and P320 to also test. The reason being is that once sediment is introduced to any of these weapons, cycling issues start occurring. Even the USP had some locking issues even though it fired all fifteen rounds, also after a second dunk. What was interesting to observe was that the VP series got better with each cycling of the slide, either manually or by firing it. This is in contrast to the M&P9 that got worse, including a dramatic increase in the trigger pull weight.

I can also conclude that it is very possibly that if the hole in the end plate of the VP series of pistols is covered, the firing pin will have a better chance of striking the primer to fire the round. What could also be added is an increase in the firing pin spring tension, opening the drain hole as well. With a quick rinse in water, even muddy water about the sediment, seemed to get the VP back up and running quickly. though some failures are still possible.

The main spring/recoil spring also needs to the have the tension increased. The VP40 spring in the VP9 was not only able to function but was also able to get the pistol into battery after being dunked in the mud after a few cycles of the slide. It did, however, fail to either eject or feed. That issue is unknown weather the spring tension was too strong with the grit resisting the the slide movement, or if it was just the grit affecting the slide. With that said, all VPs should have their main springs' tension be increased.

Final Thoughts:

Mud just flat out sucks for a pistol. Mud is able to get a multitude of fine particles into every component of a pistol and cause some sort of failure. To this end in disruptive environments, choosing the right pistol that could function through, or just even fire would be critical to a user that might have to work in such conditions. My questions, though, lie with H&K: What was the real purpose of the engineering that went into the VP series, and who is the pistol catered for? If it is for military/LE and civilian use, they failed in regards to the target customer of military/LE. The pistol just cannot function in a mud test/environment I have subjected it to. What the VP series needs, as noted above, is a stronger recoil/main spring, a blocked off end plate, a larger drain hole in the firing pin channel, and stronger firing pin spring. Research and development in this area could greatly improve the pistols performance in this area. However, if the pistol was just meant for an average shooter, carrier to use, it still succeeds in that.

Until then, the USP will still be my go-to gun for EDC and everything else. i still like my VP pistols, however in environments I find myself in, or could get in, I cannot trust the pistol like I can with my USP. The same also goes with the M&P9, if not more so that I do not trust the platform. Yes, it did fire more rounds just after being dunked in the mud, it its performance got worse with every subsequent shot, while the VP series got better with more rounds fired. Even a simple rinse brought the VP back to normal running order.

With that, I will not invest more into the VP series until changes are made. I will keep both my VP9s, might change the springs to VP40 springs, and grab a few more magazines, but I will not get anymore VP pistols nor accessories. I am considering to replace my VP40, which is a very nice striker weapon in .40S&W ( a lot tamer than the Glock 22) to probably a USP40 or USPc40.

I will be giving a call to H&K not only to talk about my findings, but...sigh, how much is it going to cost me to have all my VPs detailed stripped and cleaned.

VP9 control after test

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5764/23085338083_098b1b4418_k.jpg

VP9

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5767/23712372485_4883b6d022_k.jpg

VP40

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5660/23629869841_4d1182c58d_k.jpg

S&W M&P9

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5714/23416743690_f40d1a1ae7_k.jpg

USP9
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5832/23085294273_cfedf0e3d6_k.jpg


http://youtu.be/96NJil__Dl4

[MountainRaven]

I hypothesize that the closed back end of the M&P slide is why the gun was gummed up. The mud got in the pistol and with repeated firing, the mud worked its way into the pistol and then didn't have anywhere to go but into the works. The VP-pistols, on the other hand, had places for the mud and sediment to go - including out of the pistol - and gradually shook the mud out as they were fired.

I seem to recall this as being a strength of the Kalashnikov: It's easy for crap to get into the gun, but it's also easy for that crap to get out.

[Mauser KAR98K]

Video is up.

[DreadPirateMoyer]

From what Montrala has said, I do think the VP9 is a civilian-oriented gun. The SFP9 in Europe was made for a police contract and has a heavier trigger pull, which to me means not only the normal things, but also a stronger striker spring.

Montrala may need to correct me on some of the names or semantics, but I think the gist is right.

Def. will stick with the P30 for crazy stuff if need be.

[Slvr Surfr]

Mauser,

Thanks for all your work on those tests. You did an excellent job and write up.

An aside from the test, do you think that the VP40 recoil spring assembly would be a suitable upgrade for suppressed VP9 shooting ?

Something MAC mentioned in his video, is that the VP9 did not run well suppressed. If you have any ability to test that I would definitely appreciate it. HKParts does sell a replacement VP9 recoil spring assembly that can use different springs, but I have no clue what the factory weight is for the VP9.

[Mauser KAR98K]

Mauser,

Thanks for all your work on those tests. You did an excellent job and write up.

An aside from the test, do you think that the VP40 recoil spring assembly would be a suitable upgrade for suppressed VP9 shooting ?

Something MAC mentioned in his video, is that the VP9 did not run well suppressed. If you have any ability to test that I would definitely appreciate it. HKParts does sell a replacement VP9 recoil spring assembly that can use different springs, but I have no clue what the factory weight is for the VP9.

I would want to say the VP40 spring could improve the pistol all the way around by having a better lock up. The only thing I would question would be accuracy given HK'S mechanical accuracy is very good.

Since the USP9 has to have a differentrecoil spring assembly, I would gather the extra tension of the VP40 would help in that regard, plus it may not beat the crap out of the gun. Course, I do not own a suppressor so I'm theorically talking out my ass.

What I'm wondering is the long term, high round count use. USP main springs are changed out somewhere around 15,000 to 20,000 rounds or more. With the out of battery issues with the mud, would a high round count without cleaning or heavy use cause premature failures from what HK specifies?

[Biggy]

Heckler and Koch's motto is: "In a world of compromise, some don't." IMHO, a self defense firearm should be built to one standard by the manufacturer, I want the same standard as military pistols and rifles are are built to, not one that is watered down or built to a price point, * I don't think and hope that is not the case here. *

[Dr Dues]

ALL firearm manufacturers make extreme and absurd statements to sell a product. And all of these companies make lemons (Sigma,Colt 2000, etc).

The recent issues with Glock and S&W pistols are no different, and the problems seem to have resolved with appropriate aftermarket and OEM fixes.

The VP9 is a decent sidearm and runs well but may need some attention.

Problems with systems can not be solved by ignoring them. They are only solved by open honest discussion.

[Cincinnatus]

You sure? It's very small and just a tiny bit of red paint on the extractor. It's just silly really. I'm not clear what the chamber indicator is really there for unless just an additional "safety" feature?

Import points.

[Slvr Surfr]

Thank you Sir, now it's time for you to get that suppressor and check..... ;)



I would want to say the VP40 spring could improve the pistol all the way around by having a better lock up. The only thing I would question would be accuracy given HK'S mechanical accuracy is very good.

Since the USP9 has to have a differentrecoil spring assembly, I would gather the extra tension of the VP40 would help in that regard, plus it may not beat the crap out of the gun. Course, I do not own a suppressor so I'm theorically talking out my ass.

What I'm wondering is the long term, high round count use. USP main springs are changed out somewhere around 15,000 to 20,000 rounds or more. With the out of battery issues with the mud, would a high round count without cleaning or heavy use cause premature failures from what HK specifies?

[Mr_Happy1]

I have a VP 9 I bought last summer. It is my hd pistol. I bought the threaded barrel 1/2x28 from hkparts.net. I recently got my Octane 9 hd out of jail. I took it out this weekend. I shoot with my 84 year old Grandpa, so my sessions are short, I fired 4 or 5 15 round mags with the suppressor, I had no problems. It ran 100%. I realize it is a small number of rounds, but I can only get in about 100 before my Grandpa is ready to go. I was shooting my reloads. My pistol has about 1,600 rounds through it currently. I intend to try my 45 osprey after hunting season, as I have been shooting my hunting weapons more recently. Hope that helps.

[TheChunkNorris]

Heckler and Koch's motto is: "In a world of compromise, some don't." IMHO, a self defense firearm should be built to one standard by the manufacturer, I want the same standard as military pistols and rifles are are built to, not one that is watered down or built to a price point, * I don't think and hope that is not the case here. *

Yeah and GM says they build the longest lasting trucks on the planet too.


Mauser,

Thanks for all your work on those tests. You did an excellent job and write up.

An aside from the test, do you think that the VP40 recoil spring assembly would be a suitable upgrade for suppressed VP9 shooting ?

Something MAC mentioned in his video, is that the VP9 did not run well suppressed. If you have any ability to test that I would definitely appreciate it. HKParts does sell a replacement VP9 recoil spring assembly that can use different springs, but I have no clue what the factory weight is for the VP9.

If you're referring to this:

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/VP9-Stainless-Steel-Recoil-Rod-Assembly-Complete-367p17306.htm

It's just a stainless guide rod but it wasn't made for the intent of shooting suppressed. A lot of vids of people shooting suppressed without issues... a well known HK Armorer shoots his suppressed very often and only says good things about it. With that said, there are a lot of pistols don't shoot well suppressed out of the box so I'll take that with a grain of salt.

[montrala]

Tiny red paint on extractor is not "loaded chamber indicator". Actually SFP9 does not even have that. If one want to have actual loaded chamber indicator, HK has it as an option. On this diagram ( http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/diagram.asp?wid=1 ) it is part 11.1, 11.2 and 11.3, that replace standard extractor (part 11).

[Coal Dragger]

While I appreciate the testing done here, I don't think I would let this issue deter me from buying a VP9 and relying on it. If you want a weapon that will work with no maintenance or any effort at all to keep it somewhat protected from extremely harsh operating conditions or fouling I suggest investing in a sharp pointy stick, or perhaps a nice club, or if you're feeling adventurous an axe.

As for me I will endeavor not to drop my firearms in thick shitty mud, and should they end up in thick shitty mud or otherwise become filled with debris I guess I'll have to accept the fact that they will probably not function very well regardless of who made them. I know these kinds of tests are entertaining to some people, but obsessing over the results of frankly unrealistic testing is a bit silly in my opinion. If you want an accurate firearm certain tolerances have to be tight, if those tolerances are in fact tight then reliability will suffer when objects are introduced into the system than impede those parts from returning to their various positions. So we balance reliability with accuracy, I for one have no issues with reduced reliability under operating conditions likely to be seen less than .05% of the time if the weapon is more user friendly and makes it easier to place rounds on target the other 99.05% of the time while running just fine under more realistic conditions.

[Mauser KAR98K]

While I appreciate the testing done here, I don't think I would let this issue deter me from buying a VP9 and relying on it. If you want a weapon that will work with no maintenance or any effort at all to keep it somewhat protected from extremely harsh operating conditions or fouling I suggest investing in a sharp pointy stick, or perhaps a nice club, or if you're feeling adventurous an axe.

As for me I will endeavor not to drop my firearms in thick shitty mud, and should they end up in thick shitty mud or otherwise become filled with debris I guess I'll have to accept the fact that they will probably not function very well regardless of who made them. I know these kinds of tests are entertaining to some people, but obsessing over the results of frankly unrealistic testing is a bit silly in my opinion. If you want an accurate firearm certain tolerances have to be tight, if those tolerances are in fact tight then reliability will suffer when objects are introduced into the system than impede those parts from returning to their various positions. So we balance reliability with accuracy, I for one have no issues with reduced reliability under operating conditions likely to be seen less than .05% of the time if the weapon is more user friendly and makes it easier to place rounds on target the other 99.05% of the time while running just fine under more realistic conditions.

The vescosity of the mud I dropped the pistols in is close to a creek bed, lake bed or river bed. What should be noted is by just placing it and rinsing it in water (like I did in the test) made the VPs function.

Something else I have been considering: where the M&P9 failed was due to functioning after shooting rounds, the VP at certain times got better, I'm wondering if the open end plate actually helped the VP "shake" out the mud?

[Coal Dragger]

Possibly.

Immersion in the kind of wet sticky mud you used, as you noted should be found only in the presence of standing water. Under those circumstances, I would suggest your "immediate action" drill should be to use that standing water to vigorously shake the pistol out in, if the water is reasonably free of debris. After which a few vigorous shakes out of the water to get it out as well.

I realize that in a combat environment this might be time wasted, or not possible. At which point you risk returning fire with a weapon more likely to malfunction, try to find cover or withdraw to get your weapon working. If your opponent is very close and you're wrestling in the mud, then I hope you have a good knife I'd forget the pistol and transition to Mr. Stabby if possible under those circumstances.

[Slvr Surfr]

Mr. Happy1, That's good to hear. I appreciate your input. I have read that the suppressor piston and spring really need to be clean in order to function properly. I will give the VP9 a run with my Osprey and report back. Let us know how yours runs when you get a chance.


I have a VP 9 I bought last summer. It is my hd pistol. I bought the threaded barrel 1/2x28 from hkparts.net. I recently got my Octane 9 hd out of jail. I took it out this weekend. I shoot with my 84 year old Grandpa, so my sessions are short, I fired 4 or 5 15 round mags with the suppressor, I had no problems. It ran 100%. I realize it is a small number of rounds, but I can only get in about 100 before my Grandpa is ready to go. I was shooting my reloads. My pistol has about 1,600 rounds through it currently. I intend to try my 45 osprey after hunting season, as I have been shooting my hunting weapons more recently. Hope that helps.

[Slvr Surfr]

Thechuncknorris,

I know it wasn't designed for suppressed shooting. The SS guide rod allows you to swap springs, unlike the factory unit. I just wouldn't know what spring to "upgrade" to since I haven't been able to find any information about the factory weight. I'm guessing a good compromise would be between the VP9 weight and VP40 weight.

If you're referring to this:

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/VP9-Stainless-Steel-Recoil-Rod-Assembly-Complete-367p17306.htm

It's just a stainless guide rod but it wasn't made for the intent of shooting suppressed. A lot of vids of people shooting suppressed without issues... a well known HK Armorer shoots his suppressed very often and only says good things about it. With that said, there are a lot of pistols don't shoot well suppressed out of the box so I'll take that with a grain of salt.[/QUOTE]

[domestique]

My VP9 LE will be arriving Monday.


Once it arrives, I plan on shooting it suppressed with a Silencerco threaded barrel. I have both an Octane 9mm and 45 that i can test. 'll report back with my results.



ETA: knowing that HK designs their pistols around full power rounds, I wonder if self defense loads and +p loads would fair any better.

[jwinch2]

ETA: knowing that HK designs their pistols around full power rounds, I wonder if self defense loads and +p loads would fair any better.

Interesting question.

Thanks to the OP for doing all of this work and sharing the results. Excellent thread.

I ordered a VP9 yesterday, and am looking forward to getting it. There is virtually no chance that I will every have to subject it to the conditions seen in these tests. With that being said, the more reliable the better, and hopefully HK will take notice of these things and make the recommended fixes.

[Slvr Surfr]

I purchased a VP9 threaded barrel from Silencer Co. during their black Friday sale. The fit and finish on the barrel seems top notch and I did not note any fitment issues while in the VP9. I'll be taking the setup to the range ASAP and shake it out using my Osprey .45 can. I'll also report back on the results.

[Mauser KAR98K]

I purchased a VP9 threaded barrel from Silencer Co. during their black Friday sale. The fit and finish on the barrel seems top notch and I did not note any fitment issues while in the VP9. I'll be taking the setup to the range ASAP and shake it out using my Osprey .45 can. I'll also report back on the results.

Awesome. By chance you might have a VP40 to test with its spring?

[sac]

After reading and watching all the VP9 torture tests, it made me think I made a bad choice by getting one. I bought mine about six months ago, and have been using it as my ccw, IDPA, and uspsa, with out any malfunctions at all.
So I was thinking about getting rid of it and buy another G19, but decided to do my own test.
It is a VP9LE has been lubed with Fireclean since new and has about 3000 rounds through it. I didn't pack it in mud or clay or throw it at steel plates, I don't foresee me ever putting a weapon through all that, put the water test did bother me because I am caught in the elements at times. Took two loaded mags, tied paracord to the trigger guard. Put the first mag in racked the slide and dropped it in the creek which is about two feet deep with a combination of sand and mud, it sat at the bottom for about a minute pulled it out, the trigger was gritty but ran with no malfunctions, so put the other mag in put it in the drink again, and had the same results as before.
Went back to the house and disassembled it and was happy to see that it had maritime cups holding the spring on the firing pin. I think I will be keeping it now.

Thanks Scott

[WatchTheWorldBern]

Do you have pictures of that? Would be interesting to confirm maritime cups (or HK equivalent?) on the the VP9.

[sac]

Do you have pictures of that? Would be interesting to confirm maritime cups (or HK equivalent?) on the the VP9.

I can tonight when I get home.

[sac]

Do you have pictures of that? Would be interesting to confirm maritime cups (or HK equivalent?) on the the VP9.

This is from HK's parts http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/VP9-Spring-Washer-Half-Shell-367p16832.htm and looks like what I have.
Scott

[domestique]

This is from HK's parts http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/VP9-Spring-Washer-Half-Shell-367p16832.htm and looks like what I have.
Scott

Sac, that's interesting. I know HK is coming out with a maritime version according to the German rumors. I'm curious if Mac's pistol has these or if it was a first run that maybe didn't?

[sac]

Sac, that's interesting. I know HK is coming out with a maritime version according to the German rumors. I'm curious if Mac's pistol has these or if it was a first run that maybe didn't?

That is interesting, when I took mine apart I just figured they all have them. I'll look at my wife's tonight to see if hers is older than mine and see if its like mine. Or maybe they where put in LE models only.
Scott

[sac]

Checked the wife's VP9 LE has the maritime cups also, and is newer.

[Rogue556]

After reading this thread through I decided to check my VP9 to see if it has the maritime cups and it appears that it does as well. Mine is the non LE model and was built sometime in August of 2014. Serial number is 224-0138XX. I am curious now if all of them are equipped with them, or if it was changed very early on. Interesting..

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

[Circle_10]

Could someone post a pic of the maritime cups installed so I know exactly what I'm looking for? I want to compare the pics to my non LE VP9 that I purchased in January of 2015.

EDIT: OK I get it now. I don't have my VP handy so I'll check it when I get home later on.

[Slvr Surfr]

Mauser,

I'm sorry, I don't have a VP40 or the VP40 recoil spring. I will shoot the VP9 as is and report back.


Awesome. By chance you might have a VP40 to test with its spring?

[kantstudien]

Does anyone's VP9 not have the maritime style cups?

[Phillygunguy]

How can you tell if there's maritime spring cups? Can it be seen without a detailed take down?

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

[hotrodder636]

How much were the barrels during Black Friday? Damn it, I missed that! I didn't even know SiCo was making HK barrels.


I purchased a VP9 threaded barrel from Silencer Co. during their black Friday sale. The fit and finish on the barrel seems top notch and I did not note any fitment issues while in the VP9. I'll be taking the setup to the range ASAP and shake it out using my Osprey .45 can. I'll also report back on the results.

[domestique]

How much were the barrels during Black Friday? Damn it, I missed that! I didn't even know SiCo was making HK barrels.

145.00 I believe. I would have to check my email receipt to be sure.

[Slvr Surfr]

I think $145 is correct. If you get their email blasts, you will know when they are coming around. I think black friday is the first time they released their VP9 barrels for sale. Nice quality!

[Slvr Surfr]

Hey Fellas,

I just wanted to update that I finally got the VP9 and Osprey .45 to the range using the SiCo barrel. The VP9 shot perfectly for me and a buddy. We ran 45 rounds of Freedom Munitions 147gr ammunition. No malfunctions of any kind. The VP9 ran very smoothly. I did not notice any blowback at all.

Here is a short video from the range.

https://youtu.be/4qfg8BGcN84

[domestique]

Hey Fellas,

I just wanted to update that I finally got the VP9 and Osprey .45 to the range using the SiCo barrel. The VP9 shot perfectly for me and a buddy. We ran 45 rounds of Freedom Munitions 147gr ammunition. No malfunctions of any kind. The VP9 ran very smoothly. I did not notice any blowback at all.

Here is a short video from the range.

https://youtu.be/4qfg8BGcN84



Good to hear. I have the SiCo barrel and Octane but haven't tested it yet. I just got a case of Lawman 147 in and will be treating that load soon.