View Full Version : 9mm Defensive Pistol - most mechcanical accuarcy?
Devildawg2531
12-07-15, 07:56
I've looked and haven't found a clear answer.
2 parts to my question:
1. What 9mm defensive pistol has the greatest inherent accuracy (Glock, FN, Beretta, Sig, HK, Smith, Walther, etc) at distances up to 25 yards?
2. How much does the mechanical accuracy advantage translate to shooting from defensive positions?
My experience is heavy on Glock and Beretta (the Beretta is more mechanically accurate for me from the bag but if I use a timer and standing positions the Glock wins)
Thanks
In my personal experience, I’ve had the best luck with HK and Sig. From a rest, my Sig 226 SAO produced the best 25 yard group I’ve been able to shoot, though I don’t recall the spread. The USP9 and P30L weren’t far behind.
I don't think you'll find a definitive answer to your question. The data for "which brand is most intrinsically accurate" doesn't exist. At least that I've found. At best you'll find a sample of one for one test, and not something specific across brands.
Generally speaking for production service pistols my experience is the most intrinsically accurate are H&K, Sig and CZ, when unmodified, of the pistols I've fired in any significant amount. This excludes 1911-centric/specific manufacturers and reflects my experience with 9mm pistols only.
Regarding your second question, my most accurate pistols will shoot ~1.25" for 10-round groups at 25 yards from a rest, and I have several from different brands that can achieve this type of result.
However, if I shoot a sufficient sample size of rounds (50+) the best I can normally achieve regardless of the gun used is 4" at 25 yards. While I can do better for a small number of rounds (5 or 10), with enough shooting, the group always opens up due to my errors. It doesn't really matter which gun I pick, I have the get the same results.
Auto-X Fil
12-07-15, 09:15
1. What 9mm defensive pistol has the greatest inherent accuracy (Glock, FN, Beretta, Sig, HK, Smith, Walther, etc) at distances up to 25 yards?
That depends how you define "defensive pistol", but the better guns on your list should be capable of 2-3" 10-shot groups at 25m from a rest in the right hands. Worst-case you're looking at 4-5" at 25m, or easily one ragged 2" hole at 10m. That's a huge spread and something a shooting competitor or operator might concern themselves with. Or, just a civilian with a few extra bucks who appreciates nice things and wants to always trust their weapon.
H&K is always at the top of the list, with Glock and Sig usually right there.
2. How much does the mechanical accuracy advantage translate to shooting from defensive positions?
None. Any gun that can cut a 2" hole at 10m will be more than sufficient for any defensive use. Guns vary far more in their recoil impulse/flip, ergonomics, and reliability than in accuracy, especially since those factors vary from individual to individual. I have NEVER fired an offhand group where I felt like the mechanical accuracy of the pistol was a major factor in group size.
Maybe a Sig P210 or a Wilson Combat 1911 in 9mm. While accuracy is important to me, it is not the first trait I look for in a defensive pistol.
friendlyfireisnt
12-07-15, 09:53
Hard define the most accurate. There are definitely pistols with a solid reputation for accuracy, but individual samples may vary.
The most accurate pistol I own is a CZ P-07.
Doesn't mean I shoot it the best. Right now, I prefer my Glock 19's, although a big part of that is due to the sights I have on each. The g19's have f/o sights, the CZ has tritium sights.
Couple years ago, I did a required CCW class that had a basic range portion as well. While most of the class weren't shooters, one of my co-workers, who is an excellent shot, was there with his Sig Elite something-or-other. Fantastic pistol. I was the only one to outshoot him on the basic course, and that was with my factory M&P9.
crusader377
12-07-15, 10:21
For production 9mm. I would definitely look at either a Beretta 92, CZ-75/SP-01, full size Sig P226, and perhaps a Browning Hi Power. I have fired all of these pistols and all of them are very accurate plus their weight makes them very controllable at speed. If you prefer a polymer frame gun probably a Walther PPQ would be the way to go.
If you are looking to spend over a $1000 then probably the Wilson Combat Beretta 92G or nice 1911 in 9mm would be on my short list.
I don't think you'll find a definitive answer to your question. The data for "which brand is most intrinsically accurate" doesn't exist. At least that I've found. At best you'll find a sample of one for one test, and not something specific across brands.
This. To get a useful answer you would have to test some statistically significant sample of guns from each brand under controlled conditions then do some analysis on the data. If you shot from a lead rest with precision alignment, and shot enough rounds from enough guns, you could reduce the data down to a Circular Error Probability (CEP), ie with equivalent aiming and conditions, 90% of rounds will hit in a circle of X diameter. Smallest X is the most mechanically accurate. That's expensive testing though...
For mechanical accuracy, wouldn't a fixed barrel design like a HK P7 be more accurate than a design that uses a Browning short recoil system with moving barrels, etc.?
Auto-X Fil
12-07-15, 11:49
For mechanical accuracy, wouldn't a fixed barrel design like a HK P7 be more accurate than a design that uses a Browning short recoil system with moving barrels, etc.?
Sure, if a P7 had the sights attached to the barrel, instead of the slide.
The vp9 is capable of 1.6" groups at 50 yds. Molon showed this in one of his tests.
I've looked and haven't found a clear answer.
2 parts to my question:
1. What 9mm defensive pistol has the greatest inherent accuracy (Glock, FN, Beretta, Sig, HK, Smith, Walther, etc) at distances up to 25 yards?
2. How much does the mechanical accuracy advantage translate to shooting from defensive positions?
My experience is heavy on Glock and Beretta (the Beretta is more mechanically accurate for me from the bag but if I use a timer and standing positions the Glock wins)
Thanks
Not sure quite what your goal is here.
To oversimplify things, the vital area of a human being is about 6” in diameter. If you can shoot a 3” group at 25 yards, which isn’t hard with consistent practice, the right sights, and good ammo, then you’ll have the accuracy you need IF you can keep your wits about you in a fight. If you can’t, then it doesn’t matter.
Most pistols shoot at least that well. I’ve spent a lot of time and money chasing accuracy in Glocks, partly by comparing them to “more accurate” pistols. Every manufacturer can turn out a dog now and then, but with anything I’ve tested thus far, shooter skill has been far more important than gear within 25 yards. Once you go beyond that, gear starts to make a difference IF the shooter has his or her act together. If not, then again, it doesn't matter.
For pure accuracy in service-grade pistols, I’d say that SIG, HK, and Beretta are probably peers, with the Gen4 Glocks close behind. But I’ll add that most of the 9mm pistols that I’ve fiddled with shoot their best (which can be astonishing) with only one or two loads, and groups will be larger with pretty much any other load.
So get an M9, a VP9, a P226, or a Gen4 G17, and put your favorite sights on it. Then test ammo to find what it likes. When you find the right ammo, buy several cases of it, zero your pistol for that load, and shoot it enough to know where it hits at all ranges. Above all else, DON'T get rid of it and try something else because you had a bad day (or several bad days) at the range. Stick to that pistol and load until you master it.
If nothing else, you’ll be able to win a LOT of beer money/grudging respect from your shooting buddies.
Okie John
Sure, if a P7 had the sights attached to the barrel, instead of the slide.
Most every defensive pistol has the sights on the slide. Measuring mechanical accuracy from a Ransom Rest does not use sights anyway.
I've looked and haven't found a clear answer.
2 parts to my question:
1. What 9mm defensive pistol has the greatest inherent accuracy (Glock, FN, Beretta, Sig, HK, Smith, Walther, etc) at distances up to 25 yards?
2. How much does the mechanical accuracy advantage translate to shooting from defensive positions?
My experience is heavy on Glock and Beretta (the Beretta is more mechanically accurate for me from the bag but if I use a timer and standing positions the Glock wins)
Thanks
For me personally, it has always been classic series Sig, HK USP or Beretta. But check out these links.
The first one is from a couple of years back and has some photos of targets shot at 25 meters by M4Guru. He shot four or five different pistols in different configurations. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?104955-Glock-fitted-barrel&p=1301968#post1301968
This link is an article Brian Searcy wrote a few years back about the Tigerswan Glock17. It also includes photos of targets he shot at 25 yards. http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/25/tigerswans-brian-searcy-talks-glocks/
The links/photos should answer the question pretty well.
What 9mm defensive pistol has the greatest inherent accuracy (Glock, FN, Beretta, Sig, HK, Smith, Walther, etc) at distances up to 25 yards?
CZ75
It is the one firearm I've ever owned that after anyone shoots it, they all want one! I also have the Kadet 22LR conversion kit for it and it will out-shoot S&W 41s and the like.
Mine is an 'old school' all-metal pistol, but is truly an incredibly accurate pistol! It also beat out the Berreta in the US Military trials, but whereas it was made too close to Mother Russia, the US didn't want its source of sidearms to be behind a potential iron curtain ...
anachronism
12-07-15, 19:52
The "most accurate" handgun in the world means nothing if you cannot shoot it comfortably, and consistently. You unwittingly laid this out yourself when you compared the Glock and Beretta in your OP. The ergonomics of the pistol, as to how they relate to you are more important than static accuracy. I've seen guys who can't hit an eight inch square with a 9mm blame the gun. I've also seen other shooters pick up the same gun and consistently hit the same sized target at 100 yards, using the next few shots in the same magazine. There's more to this than simply how the gun shoots. A more accurate question is how well a shooter and a gun performs at the desired distances. Only experience will tell you that. For example: I cannot handle a Glock well, due to it's freaky grip design. I'm at my best with the FNS, or 1911s. Does this mean that Glocks are inaccurate? To me they are, and I quit trying to make them work. Others love them.
High Altitude
12-07-15, 20:43
My CZ pistols are far and away the most accurate stock pistols I own straight out of the box.
I have a gen4 19 that has the tightest barrel lock up on any glock I have ever owned. It is extremely accurate, but I wouldn't say it is common for stock glocks to be this accurate. I have a gen4 34 that doesn't come close to this 19.
M&P9 I own is a complete dog. I am going to fit a barrel into it.
I think it depends on barrel fit/lock up more than anything. Most popular pistols you can fit a barrel in, so I would pick the pistol you like the best and improve the accuracy if needed.
DanjojoUSMC
12-07-15, 20:47
In my opinion it would be Beretta (92/M9 series), CZ, HK, SIG (real ones), Walther (99/PPQ series)...I don't think of Glocks and S&W's as consistently accurate in the same sort of way even though some are very surprising.
Devildawg2531
12-08-15, 08:12
Not sure quite what your goal is here.
For pure accuracy in service-grade pistols, I’d say that SIG, HK, and Beretta are probably peers, with the Gen4 Glocks close behind.
So get an M9, a VP9, a P226, or a Gen4 G17, and put your favorite sights on it. Then test ammo to find what it likes. When you find the right ammo, buy several cases of it, zero your pistol for that load, and shoot it enough to know where it hits at all ranges. Above all else, DON'T get rid of it and try something else because you had a bad day (or several bad days) at the range. Stick to that pistol and load until you master it. Okie John
My goal is more educational than anything but is really 2 parts which mfg pistol is the most accurate mechanically and how well does that translate into real world defensive pistol situations.
I have some interest in a high HK or Sig that is perceived as very accurate just to compare how it does vs my Glocks.
Good idea on getting a Gen 4 Glock - I currently own a Gen 4 17, Gen 4 26, Gen 4 34 and Gen 4 22 each with good HD sites. Use them for CCW and IDPA and gun games and shoot at my range when I can. I'm very satisfied with their reliability and real life accuracy and am heavily invested in mags, holsters etc so don't intend on making a change. Just considering adding a nice toy
Auto-X Fil
12-08-15, 09:16
If you want a stupid-accurate toy, get a Barsto barrel custom-fitted to the G34. That's truly match-grade, like 1" at 25m. KKM is also pretty good, for a bit less money.
Devildawg2531
12-08-15, 10:37
If you want a stupid-accurate toy, get a Barsto barrel custom-fitted to the G34. That's truly match-grade, like 1" at 25m. KKM is also pretty good, for a bit less money.
I use the G34 in IDPA in SSP and I think the barrel change takes me out of SSP, most importantly its my primary HD gun and I'm reluctant to make any changes that would make it less reliable.
1911s. Duh...
Outside of them I've found SIG & HK.
I know that CZ makes an accurate pistol so add them, too.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Auto-X Fil
12-09-15, 11:55
If you want to stick with Tupperware, I would think a custom-fitted BarSto 17L would do nicely, and out-shoot anything stock other than a high-end 1911.
If not, I suggest a 1911 or similar. Custom 1911s are big money but darned sweet. Kimber are OK and affordable. I really like the Springfield 1911s for a bang-for-the-buck gun, but don't have any personal experience with the Range Officer, which is the one you'd want.
The Sig P220 is one of my favorites. Very accurate, very forgiving to shoot.
If you want something more tactical, a USP is a real shooter, and more "practical" than a 1911 or Sig to most people.
Psalms144.1
12-09-15, 13:47
I've found the following 9mms to be the most "mechanically accurate" - the HK P7M8, and a number of different 9mm 1911s. For non "specialized" platforms, I think HK's are the most consistently accurate, followed closely by Sigs.
The problem is, HK's trigger suck dog balls, except for the new VP9. So, REALIZING that accuracy can be problematic. Likewise, recent Sig DA/SA triggers have been FAR from something to write home about, though Sig's SRT SA triggers are nice. I haven't played with any of Sig's SAO pistols, either.
You're also asking two different questions - what can shoot the tightest groups in slow, deliberate fire, and what can deliver multiple, rapid, consistent hits within acceptable "combat accuracy." For me, the latter = Glock 9mms. I own LOTS of pistols, and can shoot super cool looking cloverleafs with some of them, but when I want a gun that I can place repeated hits on targets at moderate ranges (out to say 25 yards) at what I consider a reasonable cadence (under .2 second splits for me), nothing beats the Glocks that I hate...
For an IDPA gun, I really doubt there's nothing you need to do that a stock Gen4 G34 won't do with ease. If you're looking for something different, the P320 and VP9 are both attractive options...
They are all basically the same accuracy wise the difference is how does ot fit and feel to you. We are talking duty or defensive not a comp gun if you mean a comp gun that a whole kettle of fish
For the best id say a 9 inch 9mm ar pistol. 3 points of contact two hands and cheek
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
They are all basically the same accuracy wise . . .
Get back to me when a factory barreled 9mm Glock or M&P9 can do this . . .
https://app.box.com/shared/static/bhzfffnle1nk73ytdkaa.jpg
https://app.box.com/shared/static/yrkcg0o22a.jpg
....
Get back to me when a factory barreled 9mm Glock or M&P9 can do this . . .
....
Touche.
though i was refering to factory 9
duty style gun for its price point the sig is head and shoulders above. But when you replace the slide and barrel of the glock and do a trigger job its in a new class and its less than a upper tier sig
a factory glock and mp9 is not designed for competition. Its for duty
i love my sig, even though its 45 acp. It still shoots better than my mp9
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
I own a variety of 9mm pistols, including a 1911 with match barrel. The most accurate 9mm pistol I own, bar none, is a Sig Sauer P239. The P239 is a decent carry pistol, but I prefer a Glock for a fighting handgun.
threeheadeddog
12-09-15, 18:25
I have owned M&P,Glock,USP,Sig 220,Sig 229,CZ, and others. The Sigs and the CZ were the most accurate(I honestly dont remember the usp much, I hated it sooooo bad). My factory target for the CZ P09 is a little over an inch, and I have done similar with it myself.
It makes a much bigger difference than many think, even with fast shooting at moderate distances. At the longer targets you can shoot at speed much better with an accurate pistol because you know that the bullet will impact at the sights. If the sight is high right and still in the -0 or A zone, pull the trigger it will still be good to go. With a pistol like my M&P, all was fine until I got to the point that I could out shoot the gun. When I shot it I had better be looking through my sights perfect, and they had better be in the middle because I cant be sure the bullet will land exactly where my pistol is pointed. It basically cut my target zone in half at longer shots.
I shoot a P09 now for three-gun ect. I also like the M&P's in .45, but not 9mm anymore.
I have owned and shot quite a few pistols. By far the most accurate pistol that I have ever owned was an HK P7M8 9mm. With German Geco 9mm FMJ that pistol almost literally shot into the same hole at 7 yards.
It also naturally pointed well and could be shot accurately at speed.
Second would be a 2nd Generation German stamped slide SIG 220 in .45 ACP. Another very accurate pistol.
In general, I would say that HK and SIG lead the way in an accurate combat or duty style factory (non-customized) pistol.
For me, my Browning Hi Power MK III, CZ-75 variants, and HK P7 are my most accurate. They all shoot about the same accuracy mechanically. I lean towards the CZ's due to availability, and value.
Sig and hk pistols have a reputation for very good accuracy. I found the smith mp 45 to be very accurate. I believe glocks and smith m&p (.40 and 9mm) to be generally less accurate than sigs and hk. This can be easily changed with after market barrels.
If you get a chance compare a glock and sig side by side. Take the slides off and the guide rod and spring out. Wiggle the barrels back and forth and side to side while they are locked in the ejection port. The sigs i have done this with have no movement. Glocks and m&p pistols do.
If you do a search for ransom rest and a pistol model you can sometimes find results. The tests with the ransom rest will show what the pistol is capable of.
Here is a good article with info on sig accuracy.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/brand-new-from-sig-legion-9mm-pistol-hands-on-review/
In reality you need to be an excellent shot to see any practical difference. Worst case you would probably have a 3 inch difference in 25 yard groups between duty type pistols.
My G34 is more accurate than I am. Granted, that's a big gun, but I don't imagine a G19 or G17 that is shooting well is all that much worse.
A used M&P 9 and Apex's Bar-Sto fitted barrel will get you similar or better than Molon's P226 grouping. Randy has shown <2" groups at 50 yards in a ransom rest.
I see no downsides to having a more mechanically accurate gun for defensive use. If all you do is shoot at 7 yards then it really doesn't matter as most will group <1". I'm happy to challenge myself and shoot at 25-100 yards.
This is my 12 shot group standing unsupported at 25 yards with a CZ. I'm sure a ransom rest will take away the vertical stringing.
http://i.imgur.com/lXjYcdv.jpg?1
A used M&P 9 and Apex's Bar-Sto fitted barrel will get you similar or better than Molon's P226 grouping. Randy has shown <2" groups at 50 yards in a ransom rest.
I see no downsides to having a more mechanically accurate gun for defensive use. If all you do is shoot at 7 yards then it really doesn't matter as most will group <1". I'm happy to challenge myself and shoot at 25-100 yards.
I'm sure the Apex barreled guns will be fantastic, but I wouldn't put too much stock in one 5 round 50 yard group, even though it is impressive.
One five round ransom rest group with one load doesn't necessarily give a full picture. First, it's much harder to string together 10 rounds (or more) like Molon's example than 5 rounds and second you're comparing a gun that was professionally worked over vs. user guns. With the issues Smith has had with the M&P 9mm, you don't know if you're going to get a good one or one with issues. I wouldn't expect most users to have Apex's skill at fitting the barrels as well as correcting any other potential issues effecting the accuracy of the M&Ps.
It was more than one group and with off the shelf readily available ammo (not match reloads). I'm not discounting the P220ST inherent accuracy. After all, EL did win the IDPA nationals with one.
Here's my 50 yd group today with S&B 115gr FMJ. That damn vertical stringing I tell ya. Targets are 4" x 4" sticky notes.
http://i.imgur.com/3nWNKin.jpg
It was more than one group and with off the shelf readily available ammo (not match reloads). I'm not discounting the P220ST inherent accuracy. After all, EL did win the IDPA nationals with one.
Here's my 50 yd group today with S&B 115gr FMJ. That damn vertical stringing I tell ya. Targets are 4" x 4" sticky notes.
http://i.imgur.com/3nWNKin.jpg
The only info. I've seen on the new barrel is Apex's webpage (1, 5 rd. group at 50 yds.) and one post at 25 yards on the M&P forum with ~2" groups at 25 yards for 5 rounds. I believe Apex's pistol is a tack driver, but I'd like to see more end user replication of their results as I've had owned 9mm M&Ps that were seriously messed up in the accuracy dept. and I don't think the issue was limited to one part or easily correctable.
~7" at 50 would be a massive improvement on mine that couldn't do get that result at 25 yards.
How bad was your gun shooting before the new barrel?
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